Israelite-origins debate ignoring Iron I, Iron II human remains aspect of issue
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vincemoon@rcn.com - 09 Dec 2004 06:40 GMT Why are ancient Israelite Iron I & II skeletal remains being ignored? Are there no such remains?
Some jews ( http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2554 ) have apparently entered into an instantaneous psychologically blissful Nirvana wherein they have replaced their Israelite racism with a Canaanite racism that makes them feel good, on the grounds of their newfound certainty that they and ancient Israel are descended not from those who invaded Canaan but from indigenous Canaanites, based on their apparently blind faith in the words of an Israeli archaelogist, Israel Finkelstein, combined with their superficial understanding of results posted by genetic historians.
My response to such, is that many studious archaelogists, who are in the same specialty as Finkelstein, take issue with Finkelstein, even if they accept the archaeological research some of his ideas and the archaeological research he bases his conclusions on.
What strikes me as bizarre on all sides of the archaeology-and-Israelite-origins question, is, why are actual human remains, such as skeletons and skulls, or the lack thereof, ignored by all sides concerned?
Supposedly though there are few burials and cemeteries found in the Iron Age I sites in the hill country of Israel that are crucial to the Israel-origins debate, there are many Iron Age II cemeteries and burials in the areas. Why is everyone ignoring what human remains found in these burial sites indicate?
Why are archaeologists over-emphasizing artifacts other than actual human remains, when such artifacts, in reality, do no more than provide grounds for conjecture?
Seems specialists have the attitude that if something cannot be proven using the traditional tools of their specialties, then that idea that cannot be proven is in fact false, whereas if the tools of their specialty indicate that an idea is true, then that idea is indeed, undoubtedly, true.
As for the genetic evidence, this has to do with Y-chromosome data. Ultimately this Y- chromosome data clues investigators in on the identity of one of hundreds or thousands of ancestors, even though there is no cause to assume that this one ancestor contributed more to the genetic makeup of an individual in question than any average ancestor amongst all the ancestors did. The Y-chromosome data does not reveal anything about the maternal ancestry of an individual. It reveals nothing about the female ancestors on the father's side.
BBC reported a while back that skulls had been found in ancient Israel, that were skulls of persons who were ancient Israelites, and that these skulls were more "round" or brachycephalic in shape than the skulls of semites, who are typically dolicocephalic.
As for the fact that Hebrew is a semitic language allegedly proving something about the origins of Israelites, historically speaking, Ethnic groups have adopted languages spoken by other ethnic groups. The regime of King Solomon, who was heavily into foreign trade, was glorified by Biblical writers in its pre-idolotrous era. Try trading with someone whose language you cannot speak--it's not easy. ---
@2004 David Virgil Hobbs http://www.angelfire.com/ma/vincemoon
bruno@indystart.com - 09 Dec 2004 08:53 GMT Some jews ( http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2554 ) have apparently entered into an instantaneous psychologically blissful Nirvana wherein they have replaced their Israelite racism with a Canaanite racism that makes them feel good, on the grounds of their newfound certainty that they and ancient Israel are descended not from those who invaded Canaan but from indigenous Canaanites, based on their apparently blind faith in the words of an Israeli archaelogist, Israel Finkelstein, combined with their superficial understanding of results posted by genetic historians.
My response to such, is that many studious archaelogists, who are in the same specialty as Finkelstein, take issue with Finkelstein, even if they accept the archaeological research some of his ideas and the archaeological research he bases his conclusions on.
What strikes me as bizarre on all sides of the archaeology-and-Israelite-origins question, is, why are actual human remains, such as skeletons and skulls, or the lack thereof, ignored by all sides concerned?
Supposedly though there are few burials and cemeteries found in the Iron Age I sites in the hill country of Israel that are crucial to the Israel-origins debate, there are many Iron Age II cemeteries and burials in the areas. Why is everyone ignoring what human remains found in these burial sites indicate?
Why are archaeologists over-emphasizing artifacts other than actual human remains, when such artifacts, in reality, do no more than provide grounds for conjecture?
Seems specialists have the attitude that if something cannot be proven using the traditional tools of their specialties, then that idea that cannot be proven is in fact false, whereas if the tools of their specialty indicate that an idea is true, then that idea is indeed, undoubtedly, true.
As for the genetic evidence, this has to do with Y-chromosome data. Ultimately this Y- chromosome data clues investigators in on the identity of one of hundreds or thousands of ancestors, even though there is no cause to assume that this one ancestor contributed more to the genetic makeup of an individual in question than any average ancestor amongst all the ancestors did. The Y-chromosome data does not reveal anything about the maternal ancestry of an individual. It reveals nothing about the female ancestors on the father's side.
BBC reported a while back that skulls had been found in ancient Israel, that were skulls of persons who were ancient Israelites, and that these skulls were more "round" or brachycephalic in shape than the skulls of semites, who are typically dolicocephalic.
As for the fact that Hebrew is a semitic language allegedly proving something about the origins of Israelites, historically speaking, Ethnic groups have adopted languages spoken by other ethnic groups. The regime of King Solomon, who was heavily into foreign trade, was glorified by Biblical writers in its pre-idolotrous era. Try trading with someone whose language you cannot speak--it's not easy. ---
@2004 David Virgil Hobbs http://www.angelfire.com/ma/vincemoon
Where did you get this garbled mess of 10 dollar words that says nothing and proves even less? Stick it where the sun don't shine, dumbo.
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2004 08:49 GMT > Why are ancient Israelite Iron I & II skeletal remains being ignored? > Are there no such remains? The area has been inhabited by all the varieties of Homo that have left Africa in addition to Organgs and all the other animals that left such as Lions. There is one find of Neanderthal more recent than some Sapiens finds.
That said, if you want to find an "israelite" you have to find something which is more than wishful thinking which makes such an identification as certain as any other group identification. No sign of any biblical Israel have ever been found. Therefore, obviously, no Israelites have ever been found.
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bruno@indystart.com - 10 Dec 2004 09:08 GMT Try this, ignoramus:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Scott/RagSentimental.mid
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:38 GMT > Try this, ignoramus:
> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html > http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Scott/RagSentimental.mid Nothing there which satifies the requirements I gave.
Care to point out what you think does? Please be specific in what you identify and how it satisfies the requirements else everyone will know you are a believing idiot.
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bruno@indystart.com - 10 Dec 2004 09:10 GMT > > Why are ancient Israelite Iron I & II skeletal remains being ignored? > > Are there no such remains? > > The area has been inhabited by all the varieties of Homo that have > left Africa in addition to Organgs and all the other animals that left > such as Lions. There is one find of Neanderthal more recent than some
> Sapiens finds. > > That said, if you want to find an "israelite" you have to find > something which is more than wishful thinking which makes such an > identification as certain as any other group identification. No sign > of any biblical Israel have ever been found. Try this, ignoramus:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Scott/RagSentimental.mid
Kenneth McVay OBC - 10 Dec 2004 15:41 GMT Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr. Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy to identify. (If you do have a good filter, simply delete all articles originating with his NNTP-Server. Exit Mr. Giwer, enter peace and quiet.)
Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer Lincoln James <qweerq@qwer.wer> Matthias Giwer Kainee <peaace@arrld.not> Matt Giwer Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher Uroboros The Elder <root@sasquatch.ab.com>
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Churchill - 10 Dec 2004 15:53 GMT A troll on Usenet ?! I don't believe it :)
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> > Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher > Uroboros The Elder <root@sasquatch.ab.com> Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:44 GMT > A troll on Usenet ?! I don't believe it :) Holohuggers are such silly whiners.
Jamie McCarthy Jun 19 1996, 12:00 am Newsgroups: misc.test Followup-To: alt.revisionism From: j...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) Date: 1996/06/19 Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.
This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume and his success in monopolizing discussion.
Here are the statistics for June 10th through 13th:
Total number of articles posted: 816 Articles from Matt Giwer: 172 (21.1%) Articles mentioning Giwer: 213 (26.1%)
Articles per day from Giwer: 43 Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 53.3
Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts mentioning Giwer for these days. Each "F" represents one article from Giwer; each "M" represents one additional article with the string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.
Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:
Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
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Martin Edwards - 10 Dec 2004 18:50 GMT > Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only > interest is in causing fights. I don't find that at all. Of course the name Mc Vay is a bit of a giveaway. I thing we are dealing with the Vatican Propaganda Department here.
 Signature You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx
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Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:45 GMT >> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >> interest is in causing fights.
> I don't find that at all. Of course the name Mc Vay is a bit of a > giveaway. I thing we are dealing with the Vatican Propaganda Department > here. The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer.
 Signature If Arafat dies, how quickly will Israel find a new excuse to avoid peace with the Palestinians? -- The Iron Webmaster, 3280
xo@xo.net - 16 Dec 2004 23:47 GMT > The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer. Can you shed more light on this?
Joel Rosenberg - 17 Dec 2004 01:09 GMT > > The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer. > > Can you shed more light on this? Nope; he can't. Giwer spreads only stench.
Matt Giwer - 18 Dec 2004 16:41 GMT >>> The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer.
>>Can you shed more light on this?
> Nope; he can't. Giwer spreads only stench. What more is there to say? Dead is dead.
 Signature The ten commandments are a testament to the depravity of the Hebrews that they needed to be told such things are wrong. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3313
steve wolk - 10 Dec 2004 18:03 GMT (snipped the usual Giweravings)
Thanks, Matt. I love the smell of sterno in the morning.
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:46 GMT > (snipped the usual Giweravings)
> Thanks, Matt. I love the smell of sterno in the morning. There is still no physical evidence of biblical Israel. No rational person accepts anything without physical evidence.
 Signature I prefer free enterprise to capitalism. Most people do. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3281
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