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Israelite-origins debate ignoring Iron I, Iron II human remains aspect of issue

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vincemoon@rcn.com - 09 Dec 2004 06:40 GMT
Why are ancient Israelite Iron I & II skeletal remains being ignored?
Are there no such remains?

Some jews ( http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2554 ) have
apparently entered into an instantaneous psychologically blissful
Nirvana wherein they have replaced their Israelite racism with a
Canaanite racism that makes them feel good, on the grounds of their
newfound certainty that they and ancient Israel are descended not from
those who invaded Canaan but from indigenous Canaanites, based on their
apparently blind faith in the words of an Israeli archaelogist, Israel
Finkelstein, combined with their superficial understanding of results
posted by genetic historians.

My response to such, is that many studious archaelogists, who are in
the same specialty as Finkelstein, take issue with Finkelstein, even if
they accept the archaeological research some of his ideas and the
archaeological research he bases his conclusions on.

What strikes me as bizarre on all sides of the
archaeology-and-Israelite-origins question, is, why are actual human
remains, such as skeletons and skulls, or the lack thereof, ignored by
all sides concerned?

Supposedly though there are few burials and cemeteries found in the
Iron Age I sites in the hill country of Israel that are crucial to the
Israel-origins debate, there are many Iron Age II cemeteries and
burials in the areas. Why is everyone ignoring what human remains found
in these burial sites indicate?

Why are archaeologists over-emphasizing artifacts other than actual
human remains, when such artifacts, in reality, do no more than provide
grounds for conjecture?

Seems specialists have the attitude that if something cannot be proven
using the traditional tools of their specialties, then that idea that
cannot be proven is in fact false, whereas if the tools of their
specialty indicate that an idea is true, then that idea is indeed,
undoubtedly, true.

As for the genetic evidence, this has to do with Y-chromosome data.
Ultimately this Y- chromosome data clues investigators in on the
identity of one of hundreds or thousands of ancestors, even though
there is no cause to assume that this one ancestor contributed more to
the genetic makeup of an individual in question than any average
ancestor amongst all the ancestors did. The Y-chromosome data does not
reveal anything about the maternal ancestry of an individual. It
reveals nothing about the female ancestors on the father's side.

BBC reported a while back that skulls had been found in ancient Israel,
that were skulls of persons who were ancient Israelites, and that these
skulls were more "round" or brachycephalic in shape than the skulls of
semites, who are typically dolicocephalic.

As for the fact that Hebrew is a semitic language allegedly proving
something about the origins of Israelites, historically speaking,
Ethnic groups have adopted languages spoken by other ethnic groups. The
regime of King Solomon, who was heavily into foreign trade, was
glorified by Biblical writers in its pre-idolotrous era. Try trading
with someone whose language you cannot speak--it's not easy.
---

@2004 David Virgil Hobbs
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/vincemoon
bruno@indystart.com - 09 Dec 2004 08:53 GMT
Some jews ( http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2554 ) have
apparently entered into an instantaneous psychologically blissful
Nirvana wherein they have replaced their Israelite racism with a
Canaanite racism that makes them feel good, on the grounds of their
newfound certainty that they and ancient Israel are descended not from
those who invaded Canaan but from indigenous Canaanites, based on their
apparently blind faith in the words of an Israeli archaelogist, Israel
Finkelstein, combined with their superficial understanding of results
posted by genetic historians.

My response to such, is that many studious archaelogists, who are in
the same specialty as Finkelstein, take issue with Finkelstein, even if
they accept the archaeological research some of his ideas and the
archaeological research he bases his conclusions on.

What strikes me as bizarre on all sides of the
archaeology-and-Israelite-origins question, is, why are actual human
remains, such as skeletons and skulls, or the lack thereof, ignored by
all sides concerned?

Supposedly though there are few burials and cemeteries found in the
Iron Age I sites in the hill country of Israel that are crucial to the
Israel-origins debate, there are many Iron Age II cemeteries and
burials in the areas. Why is everyone ignoring what human remains found
in these burial sites indicate?

Why are archaeologists over-emphasizing artifacts other than actual
human remains, when such artifacts, in reality, do no more than provide
grounds for conjecture?

Seems specialists have the attitude that if something cannot be proven
using the traditional tools of their specialties, then that idea that
cannot be proven is in fact false, whereas if the tools of their
specialty indicate that an idea is true, then that idea is indeed,
undoubtedly, true.

As for the genetic evidence, this has to do with Y-chromosome data.
Ultimately this Y- chromosome data clues investigators in on the
identity of one of hundreds or thousands of ancestors, even though
there is no cause to assume that this one ancestor contributed more to
the genetic makeup of an individual in question than any average
ancestor amongst all the ancestors did. The Y-chromosome data does not
reveal anything about the maternal ancestry of an individual. It
reveals nothing about the female ancestors on the father's side.

BBC reported a while back that skulls had been found in ancient Israel,
that were skulls of persons who were ancient Israelites, and that these
skulls were more "round" or brachycephalic in shape than the skulls of
semites, who are typically dolicocephalic.

As for the fact that Hebrew is a semitic language allegedly proving
something about the origins of Israelites, historically speaking,
Ethnic groups have adopted languages spoken by other ethnic groups. The
regime of King Solomon, who was heavily into foreign trade, was
glorified by Biblical writers in its pre-idolotrous era. Try trading
with someone whose language you cannot speak--it's not easy.
---

@2004 David Virgil Hobbs
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/vincemoon

Where did you get this garbled mess of 10 dollar words that says
nothing and proves even less? Stick it where the sun don't shine,
dumbo.
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2004 08:49 GMT
> Why are ancient Israelite Iron I & II skeletal remains being ignored?
> Are there no such remains?

    The area has been inhabited by all the varieties of Homo that have
left Africa in addition to Organgs and all the other animals that left
such as Lions. There is one find of Neanderthal more recent than some
Sapiens finds.

    That said, if you want to find an "israelite" you have to find
something which is more than wishful thinking which makes such an
identification as certain as any other group identification. No sign
of any biblical Israel have ever been found. Therefore, obviously, no
Israelites have ever been found.

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bruno@indystart.com - 10 Dec 2004 09:08 GMT
Try this, ignoramus:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html
http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Scott/RagSentimental.mid
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:38 GMT
> Try this, ignoramus:

> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html
> http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Scott/RagSentimental.mid

    Nothing there which satifies the requirements I gave.

    Care to point out what you think does? Please be specific in what you
identify and how it satisfies the requirements else everyone will know
you are a believing idiot.

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disappearance of the concept of personal honor.
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bruno@indystart.com - 10 Dec 2004 09:10 GMT
> > Why are ancient Israelite Iron I & II skeletal remains being ignored?
> > Are there no such remains?
>
>     The area has been inhabited by all the varieties of Homo that have
> left Africa in addition to Organgs and all the other animals that left
> such as Lions. There is one find of Neanderthal more recent than some

> Sapiens finds.
>
>     That said, if you want to find an "israelite" you have to find
> something which is more than wishful thinking which makes such an
> identification as certain as any other group identification. No sign
> of any biblical Israel have ever been found.

Try this, ignoramus:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html
http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Scott/RagSentimental.mid
Kenneth McVay OBC - 10 Dec 2004 15:41 GMT
Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
evidence of this, please refer to
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
to identify. (If you do have a good filter, simply delete all articles
originating with his NNTP-Server. Exit Mr. Giwer, enter peace and
quiet.)

Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.

Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
Lincoln James <qweerq@qwer.wer> Matthias Giwer
Kainee <peaace@arrld.not> Matt Giwer
Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
Uroboros The Elder  <root@sasquatch.ab.com>

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Churchill - 10 Dec 2004 15:53 GMT
A troll on Usenet ?! I don't believe it :)

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Ask your ISP to add the following newsgroups:

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>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
> Uroboros The Elder  <root@sasquatch.ab.com>
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:44 GMT
>  A troll on Usenet ?! I don't believe it :)

    Holohuggers are such silly whiners.

   Jamie McCarthy   Jun 19 1996, 12:00 am
   Newsgroups: misc.test
   Followup-To: alt.revisionism
   From: j...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy)
   Date: 1996/06/19
   Subject: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%

   Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
   proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely
noticed until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with
insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses,
with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried
any signal that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

   This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer's posting volume
   and his success in monopolizing discussion.

   Here are the statistics for June 10th through 13th:

   Total number of articles posted: 816
           Articles from Matt Giwer: 172 (21.1%)
          Articles mentioning Giwer: 213 (26.1%)

        Articles per day from Giwer: 43
   Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 53.3

   Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
   mentioning Giwer for these days. Each "F" represents one article
   from Giwer; each "M" represents one additional article with the
   string "giwer" somewhere in its header or body.

   Jun 13:
   FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 11:
   FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
   Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM

   For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

   Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
   Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM

   It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
   However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
   malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
   activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of
   speech.
   All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

   NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

   To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfi
   le

   For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

   The EFF's "Net Abuse and 'Spamming' Archive":
   http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

   The Net Abuse FAQ:
   http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

   The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
   http://www.cm.org/

   alt.religion.scientology and "vertical spam":
   http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
   http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

   The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
   Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
   them to j...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca. It posts three times a week.
   Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
   In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl

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Martin Edwards - 10 Dec 2004 18:50 GMT
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  

I don't find that at all.  Of course the name Mc Vay is a bit of a
giveaway.  I thing we are dealing with the Vatican Propaganda Department
here.

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Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:45 GMT
>> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>> interest is in causing fights.  

> I don't find that at all.  Of course the name Mc Vay is a bit of a
> giveaway.  I thing we are dealing with the Vatican Propaganda Department
> here.

    The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer.

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If Arafat dies, how quickly will Israel find a new
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xo@xo.net - 16 Dec 2004 23:47 GMT
>    The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer.

Can you shed more light on this?
Joel Rosenberg - 17 Dec 2004 01:09 GMT
> >    The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer.
>
> Can you shed more light on this?

Nope; he can't.  Giwer spreads only stench.  
Matt Giwer - 18 Dec 2004 16:41 GMT
>>>    The real McVay died six months ago of AIDS related cancer.

>>Can you shed more light on this?

> Nope; he can't.  Giwer spreads only stench.  

    What more is there to say? Dead is dead.

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to be told such things are wrong.
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steve wolk - 10 Dec 2004 18:03 GMT
(snipped the usual Giweravings)

Thanks, Matt.  I love the smell of sterno in the morning.
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2004 09:46 GMT
> (snipped the usual Giweravings)

> Thanks, Matt.  I love the smell of sterno in the morning.

    There is still no physical evidence of biblical Israel. No rational
person accepts anything without physical evidence.

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