History Forum / General / Ancient History / February 2005

So I have been told by my friend among them.

Unlikely today but they could have existed in small groups closer to our
time then what you and I would belive possible. Can't they? If not how can
we be certain of what happened in a distant valley which none or almost none
not belonging to first nations entered in for example 15th century? We
haven't found anything supporting such an assumption. That's true, but how
can we be completely certain?

Possibly but can we be certain? See above.

You are kidding, aren't you? When and how are they supposed to get to THAT
place? Even if your answer involves an NA origin it can't possibly have been
in Alaska, can it?

True.

Interesting, isn't it?

Inger E

<snip>

 You mean 2 subspecies, "rediscovered", and 1957:

http://www.notitia.com/bison/PDF%20files/Kay,%20History%20of%20bison%20in%20the%
20rockies.pdf

"Discussion
Although free-ranging bison have been absent from Canada's
Rocky Mountains for more than 100 years (Kopjar 1987),
historical sources confirm that bison werepresent in Banff
and Jasper national parks during the early 1800s, while a
rchaeological evidence indicates that bison were present
for at least 9,000 years.
It has been suggested that these were mountain or wood bison
(Bison bison athabascae), which maintained populations
separated from bison (B. b. bison) found on the plains
(Meagher 1973; Kopjar 1987).
The available data, however, does not support this interpretation.
First, there is no morphometric evidence that mountain or
wood bison is a valid subspecies (McDonald 1981).
Geist (1991) reported that wood bison was an ecotype, not
a subspecies, a conclusion supported by genetic analyses (
Bork et al.1991).
This suggests that whatever bison were in the mountains
during pre-Columbian times or historically were not isolated
from bison on the Canadian prairies.
Second, unless constantly replenished with animals from the
plains, it is unlikely that bison could have maintained viable
populations in the mountains (Kay et al.1999).
Long-term studies in Wood Buffalo National Park indicate that
wolf (Canis lupus) predation alone can have a dramatic impact
on bison numbers, keeping the population well below the level
the range could otherwise support (Carbyn, Oosen-brug, and
Anions 1993; Carbyn, Lynn, and Timoney 1998; Joly and Messier
2000), while studies of hunter-gatherers indicate that native
hunters were the ultimate keystone predator that limited the
numbers and distribution of all ungulate species, including
bison (Kay 1994; Kay 1997c; Kay 1998).
This interpretation complements the view that bison once
summered on the Canadian prairies but then moved into the
foothills and aspen parklands, and we would add montane valleys,
to avoid harsh winters on the open plains (Moodie and Ray 1976;
Morgan 1980; Hanson 1984;Chisholm et al. 1986; Bamforth 1987;
Epp 1988).
Some bison may have summered in the mountains, but non-migratory
animals would have been under intense predation by Native Americans,
wolves, and bears (Ursus arctos and U. americanus)."

 The third variety, mountain bison, have not been shown to be
a separate sub-species, and there is no evidence that they were
a separate species.

http://www3.gov.ab.ca/srd/fw/status/reports/bison/cons.html

"The wood bison (Bison bison athabascae) is a recognized
subspecies of the North American bison ... "
"These findings are consistent with the view that wood bison
and plains bison existed as reproductively isolated populations
during the last 5000 to 10 000 years, a relatively short time
in evolutionary terms ... "

 Wood buffalo freely interbreed with Plains buffalo, and that
has led to problems more than once. They are not separate species.

http://www.nwtwildlife.com/Publications/JournalPublications/pdfdocuments/Larter_
2000_DynReintroWoodBison_AnCons.pdf

"In 1957 a very small group of wood bison was rediscovered
in a remote northern part of Wood Buffalo National Park to
the south of [Great Slave] lake (Banfield & Novakowski, 1960)."

 That was the result of a 1957 aerial survey done by Novakowski.

http://www.speciesatrisk.gc.ca/publications/plans/pdf/bison_e.pdf

"Raup (1933) speculated that the wood buffalo "as a race"
was rapidly disappearing, but speculated that an intact
northern herd still existed.
In 1959, five specimens were collected from a herd of about
200 animals near the Nyarling River (NR) and were determined
by Banfield and Novakowski (1960) to be morphologically
representative of wood bison.
The taxonomic affiliation of bison in other parts of the region
was not studied until the 1990s (van Zyll de Jong et al. 1995;
Wilson and Strobeck 1999)."

 It's not that the herd was unknown, it's just that it was
unknown that they had experienced minimal genetic mixing with
the Plains variety.

 Um, I think that bison would have been a little bit obvious
to fur trappers in the Peace-Athabasca Delta ...

 Mammoths gently and surely pushing their way through the
sturdiest game fencing: nightmare vision for Alberta ranchers.

 I predict that mammoth ranching will be restricted to areas
that do not currently support cattle ranching, despite the
"Pleistocene Park" tourist potential.
 Perhaps on Wrangell Island, or Haida Gwaii?

-
Daryl Krupa

wonderful! - Thanks! Somethings do work out... even for the Norse I guess.
laughing ------

 It's apocryphal.

Apparently some freeze-dried PLeistocene Mammoth carcass
was cooked and served to a party of Russian explorers, but
they couldn't choke it down.

-
Daryl Krupa

<snip>

 Peter:

Q: Has anybody ever eaten the meat of a frozen mammoth?
A:
http://www.stupidquestion.net/

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_4_26/ai_88826373/pg_1

 A bit on mammoth delicacy (or not):

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6040/flood02.htm

 The finder's description (Pfizenmeyer):
""Already quite a while before the mammoth carcass came into sight, an
odor, not lovely at all, hit my nose, similar to the fumes, coming from
a poorly kept horse stable, strongly mixed with carrion smell."
(...)
"The well preserved flesh on the upper arm, on the upper thigh, and
also on the pelvis, was covered with thick layers of fat. As long as it

was still frozen, it had a rather delicious appearance of a dark-red
color,
just like frozen beef and horsemeat, but was more coarse-fibered.
But as soon, as it thawed out, it changed its appearance completely.
It became flabby and gray, and gave off a distasteful, stinking,
ammonia-like smell, which went through every-thing."

http://hanskrause.de/HKHPE/hkhpe_12_01.htm

 Another on-site, Otto F. Herz, wrote, in a report to the Smithsonian
(O. F. Herz, "Frozen Mammoth in Siberia,"
Smithsonian Institution Annual Report for 1903, p. 614, 1903):
"Upon the left hind leg I also found portions of decayed flesh....
The stench emitted by this extremity was unbearable, so that
it was necessary to stop work every minute. A thorough washing
failed to remove the horrible smell from our hands, and yet we
were obliged to perform part of our task with bare hands."

"The flesh from under the shoulder, which is fibrous and marbled
with fat, is dark red in color and looks as fresh as well-frozen beef
or horse meat. It looked so appetizing that we wondered for some
time whether we should not taste it, but no one would venture to
take it into his mouth, and horseflesh was given the preference.
The dogs cleaned up whatever mammoth meat was thrown to them."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_4_26/ai_88826373/pg_1

 The story of the banquet may have come from one
Marshall B. Gardner, who wrote in his book
"A Journey to the Earth's Interior or Have the Poles
Really Been Discovered?"
(claiming that the earth was hollow) in 1920, as seen at:

http://www.holloworbs.com/gardner_on_the_mammoth.htm

"The most talked about mammoth banquet was that given by
Professor Herz, of the Imperial Academy of Science of St.
Petersburg- as it was then- who had been leader of the expedition
into Siberia which unearthed and transported the mammoth in
question to the Imperial Museum. Only the bones and the skin
were needed for mounting in the mu-seum, and as the professor
had kept the whole carcass in cold storage it suddenly occurred
to him that it would be quite possible to eat the flesh.
(...)
As the mammoth flesh was not old at all we need not speak of
the other and older items of this feast. What does concern us is
what the guests thought of the meat. But the account of the
banquet says that the banquet was a triumph: ' particularly the
course of mammoth steak, which all the learned guests declared
was agreeable to the taste, and not much tougher than some of
the sirloin furnished by butchers of today.'"

 He quotes James Oliver Curwood, a writer of adventure fiction:
" The flesh was of a deep red or mahogony color, and I dined on
a steak an inch and a half thick .... The flavor of the meat was
old- not unpleasan- but simply old and dry. That it had lost none
of its life-sustaining elements was shown by the fact that the
dogs throve upon it."

 Curwood's history:

http://www.shiawasseehistory.com/curwood.html

 He quotes Gabrielle D'Anunzio, an early Fascist:
" It was the most successful dinner I ever gave. The elephant meat
exceeded my highest expectations. In flavor it was like tortoise flesh,

but it was, well-a little tough . . . . . . I had it broiled and served
with
six different kinds of sauce.'"

http://www.holloworbs.com/gardner_on_the_mammoth.htm

 I have found out why you do not remember where you saw the
reference to a mammoth banquet: it has been suppressed by
mind-control rays operated by the Men In Black (you must promise
not to repeat this top anyone, lest your memory be erased and
you forget that you already took your pills, and become yet another
unexplained statistical anomaly of mortality):

"Why have Reed's and Gardner's books become so rare that it is
practically impossible to obtain copies and they are not found in
most libraries? Because they prove that there exists a large area
not recorded on any map, which is not only equal to, but perhaps
greater than the entire land area of the earth's surface this uncharted

land area being on the inside of the earth's crust. Naturally any
government that learned about this vast territory would have ambitions
to be the first to discover it and claim it, for which reason it would
make every effort to keep this information secret, so that no other
government might learn about it and claim this territory first. Since
the United States Government was the first to learn about it as a
result of the visit of Admiral Byrd, who flew for 1,700 miles into this

"mysterious land beyond the Pole," which is not shown on any map,
and saw mountains, forests, green vegetation, rivers, lakes and
animals there, we can understand the reason for secrecy and why
the books of two American writers Reed and Gardner, were
suppressed and forgotten, in order to guard this secret."

http://www.holloworbs.com/Chapte_Four_of_Marshall_B.htm

 And you must take especial care to forget the existence of this
very, very TOP SECRET ULTRA NOT-READY-FOR-PRIMETIME
map of the location of the Portal to the Forbidden Lands:

http://www.holloworbs.com/Location_Orifice.htm

 At least he has laid to rest the controversy over whether
Peary or Cook reached the North Pole first .. they were both
liars ... the great forests o Markland are actually to be found
at the Pole, according to Scandinavian explorers ...

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/PartTwo.htm

 You can go there, too, on a cruise that is scheduled to sail
in the summer of next year:

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/6thExpeditionUpdate.html

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/HollowEarthBrochure2006Complete.pdf

 Must check to see if they have Mammoth Smorgasbords
on board ... at only US$5000 for the non-refundable
deposit for the basic fare, it seems like a real steal,
so maybe I'd have to pay extra ... time to cash in the
savings bonds ... to heck with a cozy retirement ...

A.l.
(aka Daryl Krupa)

Linkoping.

Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same
oven.

The function of Usenet is to raise human suffering to a higher level.

--
Lady Chatterly

"Your f.cking kidding me! That was the freakiest f.cking confab I ever
been through. I'm seriosly LMAO. I knew I shouldn't post in this
condition. Laughing seriously hard. Yet the toilet thing IS true btw.
Kinda very wierd that a bot could get me thinking deep crap like
sexuality. still lmao." -- Dali

lorad474@cs.com wrote in:
1108957786.390851.225440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com,

It is very unlikely a skeleton survives in acidic conditions,
and your reference has nothing more to say about it then:

"A 12,000 year old elephant, a mastadon,
excavated from a mucky drainage ditch near LaPorte,
greets visitors to Indiana's past in the Ice Age Tunnel
at the new Indiana State Museum. "

That's the other scenario, you find not only bone but whole animal.

Calcium carbonate gravel will also protect bone from decay.

Of course.

It apparently grew rapidly after 12,000 years ago, there is a claim
of a robust people living in ohio 10,000 years ago, with a fairly
large population.