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History Forum / General / Ancient History / February 2005Paul
Maybe the following link is of some interest http://www.adnkronos.com/IGNDispacci/20050216/ADN20050216115550.htm Excavators have identified the sarcophagus (no doubt late ancient or early medieval) of Paul, in the basilica of Saint Paul outside the Walls in Rome. Unlike other religious artifacts that have appeared recently (the James ossuary etc.), this is from a scientific excavation. No doubt, we will hear more about it. Jona  SignatureJona Lendering http://www.livius.org Orson Wells put it into understandable terms. " In Italy for 30yrs under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance, while in Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500yrs of democracy and peace and what do they produce The Cuckoo Clock" A little conflict from time to time is good for the soul. it breeds creativity > Orson Wells put it into understandable terms. > " In Italy for 30yrs under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A little conflict from time to time is good for the soul. > it breeds creativity Yes, it is a sad fact of human life, as Nietzsche pointed out. So much creative energy, so many inventions, so much scientific knowledge has come from warfare. And then, I guess, if not warfare, the peaceful drive to make some bucks, which also pushes people to underhand, immoral tactics. On the other hand there have been philosophers eager to try and eliminate warfare. But have they succeeded? Have they *^&5. But this doesn't make me want to join the warmongers. Why not? Am I just a woolly-minded idealist? No. From Plato to Kant (and even existentialist philosophers like Sartre), it's been pointed out that when you choose, you choose for the whole world. And I can't choose warfare over peacefulness. Ed Good for you. You're drafted. Report to Bush tomorrow for Iraq. > > Orson Wells put it into understandable terms. > > " In Italy for 30yrs under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ed > Orson Wells put it into understandable terms. > " In Italy for 30yrs under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A little conflict from time to time is good for the soul. > it breeds creativity And what does this have to do with Paul's sarcophagus? > Maybe the following link is of some interest > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jona "Late ancient or early medieval" ???? What did the corpse do for its first 600 years or so? On hearing such stories, a wave of cynicism sweeps over me. I remember the relic making described by Umberto Eco in "Baudolino" and know that he was just describing what went on in that period - that period (?), even in later periods. The Shroud of Turin seems to date from the late 14th or early 15th century. Francis A. Miniter > "Late ancient or early medieval" ???? What did the corpse do for its first 600 > years or so? I share your scepticism about the corpse, but at least the sarcophagus -perhaps from the age of Constantine or pope Gregory- is there. That's enough to make me smile. It's the same with the Preconstantine necropole beneath Saint-Peter's basilica. Maybe the bones of Peter are there, maybe not, but however that may be: there is a splendid cemetery from the first and second centuries. Isn't that wonderful? Jona SignatureJona Lendering http://www.livius.org David Meadows's website rogueclassicism refers to the following statement about the tomb of Paul. ------------------------------------ Vatican archeologists believe that they have identified the tomb in Rome´s St Paul Outside the Walls basilica, following the discovery of a stone coffin during excavations carried out over the past three years. Catholic World News reports that a sarcophagus - or stone coffin - which may contain the remains of St Paul has been identified in the basilica, according to Giorgio Filippi, a archeology specialist with the Vatican Museums. "The tomb that we discovered is the one that the popes and the Emperor Theodosius (379- 395) saved and presented to the whole world as being the tomb of the apostle," Filippi reports. The discovery was made by a team composed exclusively of experts from the Vatican Museum. They had undertaken their exploration in response to a request from the administrator of St. Paul´s basilica, Archbishop Francesco Gioia. During the Jubilee Year 2000, the archbishop noticed that thousands of pilgrims were inquiring about the location of St. Paul´s tomb. The excavation effort was guided by 19th-century plans for the basilica, which was largely rebuilt after a devastating fire in 1823. An initial survey enabled archeologists to reconstruct the shape of the original basilica, built early in the 4th century. A second excavation, under the main altar of the basilica, brought the Vatican team to the sarcophagus, which was located on what would have been ground level for the original 4th-century building. The Vatican archeologist said that Church officials would now have to decide whether to undertake further explorations around the tomb, to make the sarcophagus more visible. In St. Peter´s Basilica, excavations that were begun in June 1939 finally uncovered the tomb of the first Pope in 1941. But it 35 more years before the Church officially attested to the authenticity of those remains, in a statement released by Pope Paul VI in June 1976. A similar span of years could elapse before the Church confirms that the tomb discovered in St. Paul´s Basilica is truly that of the apostle. SignatureJona Lendering http://www.livius.org > In St. Peter´s Basilica, excavations that were begun in June 1939 > finally uncovered the tomb of the first Pope in 1941. But it 35 more > years before the Church officially attested to the authenticity of those > remains, in a statement released by Pope Paul VI in June 1976. A similar > span of years could elapse before the Church confirms that the tomb > discovered in St. Paul´s Basilica is truly that of the apostle. This is really question-begging. It is unknown when the Roman Christian community first had a bishop. SignatureYou can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 > > In St. Peter´s Basilica, excavations that were begun in June 1939 > > finally uncovered the tomb of the first Pope in 1941. But it 35 more [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This is really question-begging. It is unknown when the Roman Christian > community first had a bishop. Martin, I guess you are correct in your assumption. Never the less I would like to know if you, or someone else, can say that we are certain that there was a bishop for the Roman Christian community. Do you know and if so what type of documentation and or indicie do we have for that date? Inger E > -- > You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 > In St. Peter´s Basilica, excavations that were begun in June 1939 > finally uncovered the tomb of the first Pope in 1941. But it 35 more > years before the Church officially attested to the authenticity of those > remains, in a statement released by Pope Paul VI in June 1976. A similar > span of years could elapse before the Church confirms that the tomb > discovered in St. Paul´s Basilica is truly that of the apostle. The Church also confirms saints and miracles. What was the criteria or confirmation in this case? Unless we know that we know nothing about it. A miracle can be confirmed if it increases faith. Did this coffin increase faith? SignatureIf democracies do not make war on each other what the hell was the American civil war all about? -- The Iron Webmaster, 3388 >> In St. Peter´s Basilica, excavations that were begun in June 1939 >> finally uncovered the tomb of the first Pope in 1941. But it 35 more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it. A miracle can be confirmed if it increases faith. Did this coffin > increase faith? As I am sure you really know, the criteria of the Church of Rome are what the faithful can be induced to believe. SignatureYou can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 > As I am sure you really know, the criteria of the Church of Rome are > what the faithful can be induced to believe. Unlike the faithful believers in the societal values of our era, glued to their TV sets. All the best, Roger Pearse >>As I am sure you really know, the criteria of the Church of Rome are >>what the faithful can be induced to believe. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Roger Pearse Come now, old chap. You may impress Yanks with something so facile, but give me some credit SignatureYou can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 > Come now, old chap. You may impress Yanks with something so facile, > but give me some credit You're supposed to get credit for pretending that Roman Catholics are stupid sheep, Americans too, and giving no argument? >Unlike the faithful believers in the societal values of our era, glued >to their TV sets. What on earth are you talking about? >All the best, It is thought that being close to a gravitational field has a biological effect on all matter including cells. The effect is to slow the movement of electrons in the orbits of their nucleus, which slows the mechanical and biological functions of the observer close to the gravity. Thus the passing of time is a local phenomenon depending on how close you are to a gravitational source. >Roger Pearse The whinery is down the hall on your left. You can't miss it. -- Lady Chatterly "I think Lady Chatterly is an auto response b-o-t that posts gibberish thats why she is female (just kidding girls) - I wanted to give her some choice material to respond to, lets see what happens." -- steve >>> In St. Peter´s Basilica, excavations that were begun in June 1939 >>> finally uncovered the tomb of the first Pope in 1941. But it 35 more >>> years before the Church officially attested to the authenticity of those >>> remains, in a statement released by Pope Paul VI in June 1976. A similar >>> span of years could elapse before the Church confirms that the tomb >>> discovered in St. Paul´s Basilica is truly that of the apostle. >> The Church also confirms saints and miracles. What was the >> criteria or confirmation in this case? Unless we know that we know >> nothing about it. A miracle can be confirmed if it increases faith. >> Did this coffin increase faith? > As I am sure you really know, the criteria of the Church of Rome are > what the faithful can be induced to believe. It has been a long time but I think I am using the wording the Church uses. SignaturePlanning to avoid the draft is the most important step in planning your retirement. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3362 > > "Late ancient or early medieval" ???? What did the corpse do for its first 600 > > years or so? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > maybe not, but however that may be: there is a splendid cemetery from > the first and second centuries. Isn't that wonderful? I agree. I'm told that it is possible to visit this. Does anyone know how? I could see no signs, the last time I visited St. Peters. All the best, Roger Pearse >I'm told that it is possible to visit this. >Does anyone know how? I could see no >signs, the last time I visited St. Peters. This is a post past of mine that I have posted on European travel NG's. My 1st tour was cancelled due to structural problems but I have been back twice since. The 'Graffiti Wall' section was closed off on my last 2 visits but It's been reopened since. I really wanted to see the Graffiti Wall so I have scheduled another visit next month. If anything has changed from my post below I will let you know, you're a regular here so I know where to find you:). Regards, Walter p.s. Does anyone know what that ancient prophesy about the destruction of Bablyon was called that I mention below. I read about it once but can't recall the name and exactly why the timing was perfect. 1st the official website and then a past post of mine. www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/uffscavi/documents/rc_ic_uffsc avi_doc_gen-information_20040112_en.html ST. PETER'S TOMB-SCAVI TOUR: This is a very limited tour beneath St. Peter's Basilica of an ancient Roman cemetery and (IMO) the tomb of St. Peter. To book it email scavi@fsp.va (others have used this address also uff.scavi@fabricsp.va but the 1st one *is* on their website) include the dates (not times) you are available, the more dates the better your chances are. I'm believe that reservations are only accepted 90 days or less from the date you desire. Also how many tickets you'll need, request an English tour, the names & ages (check their website for info on children 15yr and younger) of those taking the tour and your hotel's name and phone number in Rome. [The procedure changes: I've sent a check once and another time paid when I picked up my ticket. But now it's done online with a CC. So just follow their directions and be patient while awaiting their final confirmations or other emails (it could take a few weeks)] If accepted show-up to the left of St. Peter's Basilica's front steps where the Swiss Guards are standing (you still must pass thru the Basilica security checkpoint with everyone else first). 10 minutes before your tour begins, walk-up to the Swiss Guard and show him your confirmation e-mail, they will point you to the ticket desk (and the grumpy guy behind it:), my experience and others). Have nothing with you, no cameras, backpacks, waterbottles, etc and I *believe* now even ladies handbags are banned but that might have changed. To the right of St. Peter's front steps is a free 'left luggage'/'coat check' where you can leave your stuff beforehand. The version that has come down to us regarding this site in a nutshell is. In 64AD there is the 'Great Fire of Rome'. Nero gets the blame for starting it so he can expand his palace. Nero in order to get the heat off himself puts the blame on an odd new religious cult...Christians. A Christian persecution begins. St. Peter is crucified in the 'Circus of Nero' (aka Circus of Caligula). You can see this Circus (racetrack) in relation to the present day St. Peter's Basilica in the 2nd website below. Later Christians bribe the guards for the dead body, which was common but usually for family members. He is taken across the street to a Pagan cemetery and placed in a tomb. The tomb was possibly donated by a fellow Christian. It was very common for Pagan Romans to visit their family tombs and picnic there. Tombs usually had a small hole in them for the family to pour wine in and drop in pieces of food. So the Roman Christians would probably also follow this practice and visit this tomb plus it would be a very revered place. And it's location could have easily been passed down for a few generations until the 1st church was built over the site. I'm a bit of a history buff and an Atheist so I have no religious bias regarding this site. But I do believe it is *very possible* that this is the tomb of the historical Jesus Christ's Disciple Peter. And if so IMO this site would be the only actual physical link we have to the man called Jesus Christ. www.ucd.ie/%7Eclassics/96/Curran96.html www.stpetersbasilica.org/Docs/RemainsofPeter.htm www.stpetersbasilica.org/images.htm http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/R ome/Vatican/S.Peter/Lanciani_plan.html Although the Christians probably didn't start the Great Fire, it's possible that they helped it spread. The timing of the fire was just perfect to fulfull an ancient prophesy about the destruction of Bablyon which is what the early Christians called Rome. And there were reports of men starting other fires while the Great fire raged. This is a great website about the Basilica www.stpetersbasilica.org there is other info on the site about the tomb but the most detailed is on the 'The History' link and then the 'The Site' link. The 'Peter Saint and Man' link is also very good for background info and the events. ..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain... > 1st the official website and then a past post of mine. www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/uffscavi/documents/rc_ic_uffsc avi_doc_gen-information_20040112_en.html > ST. PETER'S TOMB-SCAVI TOUR: Many thanks indeed! Roger Pearse > I share your scepticism about the corpse, but at least the sarcophagus > -perhaps from the age of Constantine or pope Gregory- is there. That's > enough to make me smile. It's the same with the Preconstantine > necropole beneath Saint-Peter's basilica. Maybe the bones of Peter > are there, maybe not, but however that may be: there is a splendid > cemetery from the first and second centuries. Isn't that wonderful? At the end of the fourth century the pseudonymous author of the "Augustan History" ('Aelius Lampridius' in his "Life of Heliogabalus") slyly wrote: Fertur in euripis vino ploenis navales circenses exhibuisse, pallia de oenanthio fudisse et elefantorum quattuor quadrigas in Vaticano agitasse dirutis sepulchris, quae obsistebant, iunxisse etiam camelos quaternos ad currus in circo privato spectaculo. [24:1] "He is said to have given naval displays on the circus canals, which had been filled with wine; to have sprinkled cloaks with grape perfume and driven a chariot drawn by four elephants on the Vatican, destroying the tombs which were in the way; also to have harnessed four camels to a chariot, for a private show at the circus." SignatureJohn Briggs |
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