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The legacy of Leo Strauss: neoconservatism or neo-fascism ?

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Gamma Draconis - 15 Sep 2003 21:40 GMT
Saving America

Leo Strauss and the neoconservatives

By Shadia B. Drury

http://evatt.org.au/publications/papers/112.html

Shadia Drury gets to the bottom of neoconservatism.

There is a growing awareness that a reclusive German émigré
philosopher is the inspiration behind the reigning neoconservative
ideology of the Republican Party. Leo Strauss has long been a cult
figure within the North American academy. And even though he had a
profound antipathy to both liberalism and democracy, his disciples
have gone to great lengths to conceal the fact. And for the most part
they have succeeded -- as the article by James Atlas in The New York
Times and the article by Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker indicate.
This picture of Strauss as the great American patriot, who was a lover
of freedom and democracy is pure fabrication. Nothing could be further
from the truth.

The trouble with the Straussians is that they are compulsive liars.
But it is not altogether their fault. Strauss was very pre-occupied
with secrecy because he was convinced that the truth is too harsh for
any society to bear; and that the truth-bearers are likely to be
persecuted by society - specially a liberal society - because liberal
democracy is about as far as one can get from the truth as Strauss
understood it.

Strauss's disciples have inherited a superiority complex as well as a
persecution complex. They are convinced that they are the superior few
who know the truth and are entitled to rule. But they are afraid to
speak the truth openly, lest they are persecuted by the vulgar many
who do not wish to be ruled by them. This explains why they are eager
to misrepresent the nature of Strauss's thought. They are afraid to
reveal that Strauss was a critic of liberalism and democracy, lest he
be regarded as an enemy of America. So, they wrap him in the American
flag and pretend that he is a champion of liberal democracy for
political reasons - their own quest for power. The result is that they
run roughshod over truth as well as democracy.

It should however be pointed out that being a critic of liberalism or
democracy or both does not make one automatically an enemy of America.
On the contrary, freedom and democracy can only be strengthened by
intellectually confronting their critics. Strauss has no special
antipathy for America. He is the enemy of liberty in general. It was
for love of America that he wished to save her from her disastrous
love affair with liberty, as I will explain.

Strauss's preoccupation with secrecy was no doubt connected to the
fact that he did not feel at home in America. He realised how much his
ideas were at odds with America's liberal modernity. He felt that in
America, everything that does not fit the mould, everything that does
not conform to public opinion, was ostracised. In a letter to a
friend, Strauss complained that the academic atmosphere in America was
oppressive, and that it was very difficult to publish. As a man forced
to emigrate from his native Germany, learn a new language by watching
television, and forced to conduct his scholarly life in this newly
acquired language, Strauss must be the subject of our sympathy. But
Strauss's American disciples continue to complain that they are
oppressed, beleaguered, and ostracised by the liberal academy, and the
equally liberal media. But surely, these are crocodile tears.

The Straussians are the most powerful, the most organised, and the
best-funded scholars in Canada and the United States. They are the
unequalled masters of right-wing think tanks, foundations, and
corporate funding. And now they have the ear of the powerful in the
White House. Nothing could have pleased Strauss more; for he believed
that intellectuals have an important role to play in politics. It was
not prudent for them to rule directly because the masses are inclined
to distrust them; but they should certainly not pass up the
opportunity to whisper in the ears of the powerful. So, what are they
whispering? What did Strauss teach them? What is the impact of the
Straussian philosophy on the powerful neoconservatives? And what is
neoconservatism anyway?

Strauss is not as obscure or as esoteric as his admirers pretend.
There are certain incontestable themes in his work. The most
fundamental theme is the distinction between the ancients and the
moderns - a distinction that informs all his work. According to
Strauss, ancient philosophers (such as Plato) were wise and wily, but
modern philosophers (such as Locke and other liberals) were foolish
and vulgar. The wise ancients thought that the unwashed masses were
not fit for either truth or liberty; and giving them these sublime
treasures was like throwing pearls before swine. Accordingly, they
believed that society needs an elite of philosophers or intellectuals
to manufacture "noble lies" for the consumption of the masses. Not
surprisingly, the ancients had no use for democracy. Plato balked at
the democratic idea that any Donald, Dick, or George was equally fit
to rule.

In contrast to the ancients, the moderns were the foolish lovers of
truth and liberty; they believed in the natural rights to life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They believed that human beings
were born free and could be legitimately ruled only by their own
consent.

The ancients denied that there is any natural right to liberty. Human
beings are born neither free nor equal. The natural human condition is
not one of freedom, but of subordination. And in Strauss's estimation,
they were right in thinking that there is only one natural right - the
right of the superior to rule over the inferior - the master over the
slave, the husband over the wife, and the wise few over the vulgar
many. As to the pursuit of happiness - what could the vulgar do with
happiness except drink, gamble, and fornicate?

Praising the wisdom of the ancients and condemning the folly of the
moderns was the whole point of Strauss's most famous book, Natural
Right and History. The cover of the book sports the American
Declaration of Independence. But the book is a celebration of nature -
not the natural rights of man (as the appearance of the book would
lead one to believe), but the natural order of domination and
subordination.

In his book On Tyranny, Strauss referred to the right of the superior
to rule as "the tyrannical teaching" of the ancients which must be
kept secret. But what is the reason for secrecy? Strauss tells us that
the tyrannical teaching must be kept secret for two reasons - to spare
the people's feelings and to protect the elite from possible
reprisals. After all, the people are not likely to be favourably
disposed to the fact that they are intended for subordination.

But why should anyone object to the idea that in theory the good and
wise should rule? The real answer lies in the nature of the rule of
the wise as understood by Strauss.

It meant tyranny is the literal sense, which is to say, rule in the
absence of law, or rule by those who were above the law. Of course,
Strauss believed that the wise would not abuse their power. On the
contrary, they would give the people just what was commensurate with
their needs and capacities. But what exactly is that? Certainly,
giving them freedom, happiness, and prosperity is not the point. In
Strauss's estimation, that would turn them into animals. The goal of
the wise is to ennoble the vulgar. But what could possibly ennoble the
vulgar? Only weeping, worshipping, and sacrificing could ennoble the
masses. Religion and war - perpetual war - would lift the masses from
the animality of bourgeois consumption and the pre-occupation with
"creature comforts." Instead of personal happiness, they would live
their lives in perpetual sacrifice to God and the nation.

Irving Kristol, a devoted follower of Strauss and father of
neoconservatism, was delighted with the popularity of the film Rambo.
He thought it was an indication that the people still love war; and
that means that it will not be too difficult to lure them away from
the animalistic pleasures that liberal society offers. There is a
strong asceticism at the heart of the atheistic philosophy of Leo
Strauss that explains why those with religious inclinations are
attracted to it.

Strauss loved America enough to try to save her from the errors and
terrors of Europe. He was convinced that the liberal democracy of the
Weimar Republic led to the rise of the Nazis. That is a debatable
matter. But Strauss did not openly debate this issue or provide
arguments for his position in his writings. I am inclined to think
that it is Strauss's ideas, and not liberal ideas, that invite the
kinds of abuses he wished to avoid. It behoves us to remember that
Hitler had the utmost contempt for parliamentary democracy. He was
impatient with debate and dispute, on the grounds that they were a
waste of time for the great genius who knew instinctively the right
choices and policies that the people need. Hitler had a profound
contempt for the masses - the same contempt that is readily observed
in Strauss and his cohorts. But when force of circumstances made it
necessary to appeal to the masses, Hitler advocated lies, myths, and
illusions as necessary pabulum to placate the people and make them
comply with the will of the Fürer. Strauss's political philosophy
advocates the same solution to the problem of the recalcitrant masses.
Anyone who wants to avoid the horrors of the Nazi past is well advised
not to accept Strauss's version of ancient wisdom uncritically. But
this is exactly what Strauss encouraged his students to do.

Strauss's students have left the academy in quest of political power.
They complain that they are persecuted in the academy because they are
illiberal. But in truth, it is not because they are illiberal that
they are held in contempt; it is because they are ill-equipped to
handle philosophical debate. Strauss's secretive or esoteric style of
writing is inimical to philosophical dispute within the academy. He
was convinced that there can be no disagreement among the wise. They
instinctively recognise the truth. And those who deny it are unfit for
the company of the wise. This explains why his students are a cultish
clique, which is comfortable only when preaching to the converted and
consorting with the like-minded. All the while they fool themselves
into thinking that they are the exclusive few who see the
unadulterated truth, which is concealed from the eyes of the
uninitiated. Not surprisingly, they are not well regarded within the
academy. But it is not entirely their fault. They are poorly trained,
because Strauss's philosophy is ill-suited for academic life. It
aspires to action. Its goal is not to understand the world, but to
change it. And now that they are closely allied with the powerful
neoconservatives in Washington, they have a chance to make their
vision a reality.

So, what is neoconservatism? And how does it propose to change the
world in accordance with Straussian political philosophy? 'Neo' comes
from the Greek neos, which means new. And, what's neo about
neoconservatism? Well, for one thing, the old conservatism relied on
tradition and history; it was cautious, slow and moderate; it went
with the flow. But under the influence of Leo Strauss, the new
conservatism is intoxicated with nature. The new conservatism is not
slow or cautious, but active, aggressive, and reactionary in the
literal sense of the term. Inspired by Strauss's hatred for liberal
modernity, its goal is to turn back the clock on the liberal
revolution and its achievements.

Allan Bloom, author of The Closing of the American Mind, Strauss's
best known student, was a professor at the University of Toronto. His
best selling book demonised the sixties - the age of civil rights for
black Americans, and greater freedom and equality for women. Irving
Kristol also demonised the sixties. And Francis Fukuyama, student of
Allan Bloom, and vanguard of the neoconservative intellectuals, refers
to the sixties as "The Great Disruption," the title of his recent
book. Supposedly, all these Strauss-inspired writers believe that the
new found freedoms of the sixties are the root of all evil, because
freedom invites licentiousness, and licentiousness is a harbinger of
social decay - divorce, delinquency, crime, and creature comforts. And
there is a sense in which they are right - freedom is a treasure that
is quickly lost if it is not wisely used. The trouble is that
neoconservatives have zero tolerance for human vices or follies, and
as a result, they are unwilling to give liberty a chance.

So, what is to be done? How can America be saved from her dangerous
fascination with liberty? Irving Kristol came up with the solution
that has become the cornerstone of neoconservative policies: use
democracy to defeat liberty. Turn the people against their own
liberty. Convince them that liberty is licentiousness - that liberty
undermines piety, leads to crime, drugs, rampant homosexuality,
children out of wedlock, and family breakdown. And worse of all,
liberalism is soft on communism or terrorism - whatever happens to be
the enemy of the moment. And if you can convince the people that
liberty undermines their security, then, you will not have to take
away their liberty; they will gladly renounce it.

In an essay entitled "Populism Not to Worry," Irving Kristol argued
that Americans should embrace populism, or the rule of the majority,
despite the reservations of the Founding Fathers. The latter feared
the tyranny of the majority, and institutionalised safeguards to
protect the liberty of individuals and minorities. But Kristol and the
neoconservatives want to dismantle these very safeguards against
majority rule. Kristol tells us not to worry. Why not? Apparently
because the neoconservatives believe that America has been ruled by an
unwise liberal elite for over two hundred years, and they are willing
to gamble that the people will be wiser, which is to say, more likely
to endorse conservative policies. Inspired by the same ideology, the
Alliance party in Canada is willing to take the same gamble. But,
luckily for Canada, it is sagging badly in the polls.

With the neoconservatives in power in the US, it will be difficult to
conceal the real nature of neoconservative policies. The "stealth
campaigns" are not likely to be as effective. The policies are by now
very clear: no gay rights, no liberated women, no uppity blacks, lots
of prayer in the schools, a strong commitment to the death penalty,
and the re-criminalisation of abortion. The latter is particularly
important. Of course it will keep the women at home and out of the way
so that world can be ruled by men in the proper manly fashion; but
that's not all. More importantly, it will keep women busy having
babies - lots of babies. In this way, women will become useful once
again; they will return to their vocation as factories for soldiers -
and we need lots of soldiers, for we will have plenty of wars to
fight, if the neoconservatives have their way. And it seems they have.

The neoconservative goal is reactionary in the classic sense of the
term. It is nothing short of turning the clock back on the liberal
revolution. And it will use democracy to accomplish its task. After
all, Strauss had no objections to democracy as long as a wise elite,
inspired by the profound truths of the ancients, was able to shape,
invent, or create the will of the people. In his interpretation of
Plato's myth of the cave, Strauss maintained that the philosophers who
return to the cave should not bring in truth; instead, the
philosophers should seek to manipulate the images in the cave, so that
the people will remain in the stupor to which they are supremely fit.

It is ironic that American neoconservatives have decided to conquer
the world in the name of liberty and democracy, when they have so
little regard for either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shadia Drury is among the world's foremost scholars on the history,
philosophy and politics of neoconservatism. She is the author of the
acclaimed books Leo Strauss and the American Right (1998) and The
Political Ideas of Leo Strauss (1988). Her forthcoming book is Terror
and Civilization. Professor Drury holds the Canada Research Chair in
Social Justice at the University of Regina, in Saskatchewan, Canada.
For more information on her books and her work in general, see her
website http://www.uregina.ca/arts/CRC/
BernardZ - 16 Sep 2003 13:15 GMT
> There is a growing awareness that a reclusive German émigré
> philosopher is the inspiration behind the reigning neoconservative
> ideology of the Republican Party. Leo Strauss has long been a cult
> figure within the North American academy.

Quite unlikely as neoconservatitism was formed in the wake of the
Vietnam war.
BernardZ - 16 Sep 2003 13:51 GMT
> Saving America
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ideology of the Republican Party. Leo Strauss has long been a cult
> figure within the North American academy.

Quite unlikely as neoconservatism was formed in the wake of the Vietnam
war.

Signature

Justify this! This girl was shot and killed by a PA gunman she was
described as a *quality* target.

http://www.hebron.org.il/pics/shalhevet.htm

Paulsrb - 16 Sep 2003 19:03 GMT
Thanks for posting this.

> Saving America
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ideology of the Republican Party. Leo Strauss has long been a cult
> figure within the North American academy.

This is simply a joke. Leo Strauss had no influence on William J.
Bennett, Robert Bork, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Joshua Muravchik, Michael
Novak, Norman Podhoretz, Seymour Martin Lipset, James Q. Wilson and
other neoconservative gurus, and it is questionable whether these
thinkers and writers are the dominant force within today's Republican
Party.

[snip]
> The trouble with the Straussians is that they are compulsive liars.

[snip]
> Strauss's disciples have inherited a superiority complex as well as a
> persecution complex.

We can always rely on left-liberal academics to elevate the tone of
political discourse :-)

[snip]
> The Straussians are the most powerful, the most organised, and the
> best-funded scholars in Canada and the United States. They are the
> unequalled masters of right-wing think tanks, foundations, and
> corporate funding. And now they have the ear of the powerful in the
> White House.

I count two Straussians out of several dozen scholars at the American
Enterprise Institute, two out of several dozen at the Hoover
Institution, none at the Heritage Foundation and none at Empower
America, the key conservative think tanks. I know of no Straussians at
the Bradley, Olin and Scaife Foundations, all of which combined are
outspent by a factor of ten by any one of the major liberal
foundations, such as Carnegie, Ford or Rockefeller. And there is only
one Straussian among the leading foreign policy hawks in the Bush
Administration, i.e. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, Bolton and
Feith.

[snip]
> Irving Kristol, a devoted follower of Strauss and father of
> neoconservatism, was delighted with the popularity of the film Rambo.

And we all know that people who like Rambo must be Nazi militarists in
disguise :-)

[snip]
> Hitler had a profound contempt for the masses - the same contempt that is
> readily observed in Strauss and his cohorts. But when force of circumstances
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> not to accept Strauss's version of ancient wisdom uncritically. But
> this is exactly what Strauss encouraged his students to do.

These speculations would be more plausible if Drury could identify
arguments in Strauss' books justifying totalitarian dictatorship,
police terror, territorial expansion, racial genocide, and a few other
pertinent details of Hitler's ideology.

> Strauss's students have left the academy in quest of political power.
> They complain that they are persecuted in the academy because they are
> illiberal. But in truth, it is not because they are illiberal that
> they are held in contempt; it is because they are ill-equipped to
> handle philosophical debate. Strauss's secretive or esoteric style of
> writing is inimical to philosophical dispute within the academy.

As demonstrated in the writings of prominent political philosophers
such as Peter Berkowitz, William Galston, Harvey Mansfield, Joshua
Mitchell, Thomas Pangle, Nathan Tarcov, Bernard Yack, Michael Zuckert
and dozens of other academic nonentities.

> He was convinced that there can be no disagreement among the wise. They
> instinctively recognise the truth. And those who deny it are unfit for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> unadulterated truth, which is concealed from the eyes of the
> uninitiated.

If Straussians are elitists and liberals are populists, then why is it
that Straussians support majority rule and liberals oppose it? See her
comments below.

[snip]
> So, what is neoconservatism? And how does it propose to change the
> world in accordance with Straussian political philosophy? 'Neo' comes
> from the Greek neos, which means new. And, what's neo about
> neoconservatism?

The central novelty of neoconservatism is that its adherents are
former liberals who are reluctant to abandon the legacy of government
regulation and the welfare state; see Ramesh Ponnuru's attack on "big
government conservatism" in the current issue of National Review.

> Well, for one thing, the old conservatism relied on
> tradition and history; it was cautious, slow and moderate; it went
> with the flow. But under the influence of Leo Strauss, the new
> conservatism is intoxicated with nature.

Most neoconservatives display no interest in natural law theory. Some
neoconservatives - Bork, Scalia and Graglia - are vehement opponents
of natural law theory. Only a small group of theoconservatives -
Grisez, Finnis and George - adhere to natural law theory, and these
writers have not been influenced by Strauss.

> The new conservatism is not slow or cautious, but active, aggressive, and
> reactionary in the literal sense of the term. Inspired by Strauss's hatred
> for liberal modernity, its goal is to turn back the clock on the liberal
> revolution and its achievements.

Without exception, neoconservatives supported the original civil
rights movement, and they also defend ethnic pluralism and permissive
immigration laws.

[snip]
> Supposedly, all these Strauss-inspired writers believe that the
> new found freedoms of the sixties are the root of all evil, because
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> neoconservatives have zero tolerance for human vices or follies, and
> as a result, they are unwilling to give liberty a chance.

[snip]
> Convince them that liberty is licentiousness - that liberty
> undermines piety, leads to crime, drugs, rampant homosexuality,
> children out of wedlock, and family breakdown.

The claim is not that liberty undermines morality but that liberalism
undermines morality. And it is indisputably true that the ideological
triumph of liberalism since the 1960s has coincided with an enormous
increase in criminal violence, drug addiction, illegitimacy and
divorce, however we choose to evaluate these developments.

[snip]
> In an essay entitled "Populism Not to Worry," Irving Kristol argued
> that Americans should embrace populism, or the rule of the majority,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> neoconservatives want to dismantle these very safeguards against
> majority rule.

And this is the true agenda of Drury and her left-liberal colleagues:
maintaining the safeguards against majority rule, so that we can be
governed by an unelected liberal elite. There may be worthwhile
alternatives to unlimited majoritarian democracy, but liberal elitism
is surely not among them.

[snip]
> With the neoconservatives in power in the US, it will be difficult to
> conceal the real nature of neoconservative policies. The "stealth
> campaigns" are not likely to be as effective. The policies are by now
> very clear: no gay rights, no liberated women, no uppity blacks, lots
> of prayer in the schools, a strong commitment to the death penalty,
> and the re-criminalisation of abortion.

Again, nonsense: Commentary, the flagship magazine of neoconservatism,
has never published an article calling for the criminalisation of
homosexuality or abortion and it is decidedly soft on gun rights and
even the death penalty.
Not-easily-duped - 17 Sep 2003 01:16 GMT
> Saving America
>
[quoted text clipped - 281 lines]
> For more information on her books and her work in general, see her
> website http://www.uregina.ca/arts/CRC/

...
hippo - 22 Sep 2003 18:23 GMT
"Not-easily-duped" wrote in message

>Gamma Draconis wrote in message

> > Leo Strauss and the neoconservatives

This is from a neo-con who has never read Strauss and who knows no-one in
the movement who has either. Trying to ascribe a specific ideology to
conservatism is like believing we are descended from Adam and Adam's rib,
and about as modern. The problem with conservatism has always been that it
does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith which is
only one side of the equation. Modern conservatism is a mash of ideas from
Randian relativist libertarianism to religious orthodoxy and everything in
between. We do not argue internal ideology because we do not proceed from
there. We are essentially anti-ideology. If we can be said to collectively
believe in anything it is the idea of the rights of the individual over the
rights of the State and that there is not now nor will there ever be a
viable Utopian State. Calling us reactionary is valid. It is against fool
who promote social revolution and the false ideals of an Utopian State that
we react. Without you there would be no conservative movement because there
would be no need for one. -the Troll
Agamemnon - 22 Sep 2003 20:22 GMT
> "Not-easily-duped" wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> we react. Without you there would be no conservative movement because there
> would be no need for one. -the Troll

Who are you trying to fool. Strauss was a self confessed Zionist NAZI
Fascist since his teens.

The glitterati of Strausian fascism aka. neo-conservatism.

Leo Strauss. 1.
Paul D. Wolfowitz, 2.
William Kristol, 3.
Gary Schmitt, 4.
Irving Kristol, 5.
Norman Podhoretz, 6.
David Frum, 7.
Martin Heidegger, 8.
Walter Benjamin, 9.
Harvey Mansfield, 10.
Alain Frachon, 11
Daniel Vernet, 12
Donald H. Rumsfeld, 13
Saul Bellow, 14.
Abe Ravelstein, 15.
Philip Gorman, 16
Richard N. Perle, 17.
Albert Wohlstetter, 18.

A Classicist's Legacy: New Empire Builders

By JAMES ATLAS

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/weekinreview/04ATLA.html

All right, so weapons of mass destruction haven't yet been found in
Iraq. And no firm link has been established between Saddam Hussein and
Al Qaeda. So what was the war in Iraq about, then? According to one
school of thought, our most recent military adventure turns out to have
been nothing less than a defense of Western civilization -- as
interpreted by the late classicist and political philosopher Leo
Strauss.

If this chain of events seems implausible, consider the tribute
President Bush paid in February to the cohort of journalists, political
philosophers and policy wonks known -- primarily to themselves -- as
Straussians. "You are some of the best brains in our country," Mr. Bush
declared in a speech at the American Enterprise Institute, "and my
government employs about 20 of you."

"Employs" is too weak a verb. To intellectual-conspiracy theorists, the
Bush administration's foreign policy is entirely a Straussian creation.
Paul D. Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defense, has been identified
as a disciple of Strauss; William Kristol, founding editor of The
Weekly Standard, a must-read in the White House, considers himself a
Straussian; Gary Schmitt, executive director of the Project for the New
American Century, an influential foreign policy group started by Mr.
Kristol, is firming in the Strauss camp. One is reminded of Asa
Leventhal, the hero of Saul Bellow's novel "The Victim," who asks his
oppressor, a mysterious figure named Kirby Allbee, "Wait a minute,
what's your idea of who runs things?" For those who believe in the
power of ideas, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to answer: the
intellectual heirs of Leo Strauss.

So how did it come to pass that a European-born emigre identified by
the Harvard professor of government Harvey Mansfield (also a
Straussian) as "an obscure professor of political philosophy at the
University of Chicago who died in 1973" now occupies a position of such
disproportionate influence?

The answer starts with Strauss's long and influential tenure at Chicago
in the mid-20th century and his teachings, mostly from the classics,
about the immutability of moral and social values. His lessons were
spurned in the 1960's and 70's, in favor of the moral relativism that
his disciples believed was polluting foreign policy, from the post-
Vietnam imperial malaise to detente with the Soviet Union. During the
Reagan administration, some of Strauss's admirers, like Irving Kristol
and Norman Podhoretz, emerged as house intellectuals -- favored dinner
guests who gave the intellectual justification for policies usually
drawn up by more practical political types.

Today's dinner guests are the dominant master strategists in their own
right, and the transformation brings us face to face with just how much
their intellectual roots influence their exercise of power. It is also
reasonable to ask: just what would Leo Strauss think of the policies
being carried out in his name?

On the basis of his curriculum vitae, Strauss would seem an unlikely
figurehead of the Bush White House, hardly a hotbed of intellectual
inquiry, as detailed in a recent book by a former presidential
speechwriter, David Frum. The child of middle-class Orthodox Jews,
Strauss converted to Zionism while still in his teens, attended Martin
Heidegger's lectures at the University of Freiburg, and eventually
crossed paths with some of the most influential European intellectual
figures of the prewar period: Walter Benjamin, Alexandre Kojcve, Hans-
Georg Gadamer. In 1934, Strauss emigrated to Britain, where he
wrote "The Political Philosophy of Thomas Hobbes." Just before the
outbreak of World War II, he joined the faculty of the New School for
Social Research, a refuge for European intellectuals. His final home
was the University of Chicago, where he taught in the political science
department for a quarter of a century.

At first glance, Strauss's work seems remote from the heat of
contemporary politics. He was more at home in the world of Plato and
Aristotle than in debates about the origins of totalitarianism. His
major books included "Xenophon's Socratic Discourse," "Thoughts on
Machiavelli" and a collection of essays on the ancient Greeks, "The
City and Man." But closer scrutiny reveals a mind keenly aware of
current events.

Strauss's own experience -- he witnessed Russian pogroms as a child and
barely escaped the Holocaust -- alerted him to the perils of
history. "When we were brought face to face with tyranny -- with a kind
of tyranny that surpassed the boldest imagination of the most powerful
thinkers of the past -- our political science failed to recognize it,"
Strauss wrote in his classic "On Tyranny." He believed, as he once
wrote, that "to make the world safe for the Western democracies, one
must make the whole globe democratic, each country in itself as well as
the society of nations." There's a reason that some Bush strategists
continue to invoke Strauss's name.

The myth of Strauss derives from a single event: the publication of
Allan Bloom's "Closing of the American Mind" in 1987. Bloom, who taught
with the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago, had
been a student of Strauss's; his incendiary best seller argued that
democracy as practiced by the Greeks represents the highest form of
civilization. The free society is the best man has devised. But Bloom's
dense and at times inscrutable polemic was not a call to action; it was
a celebration of the classics as a civilizing force. "The open agenda
of Straussians is the reading of the Great Books for their own sake,
not for a political purpose," wrote Harvey Mansfield in The New
Republic.

This agenda became politicized when it was appropriated -- some might
say hijacked -- by a cohort of ambitious men for whom the university
was too confining an arena. Alain Frachon and Daniel Vernet, writing in
Le Monde two weeks ago, provided a vivid snapshot of these fugitives
from the academy. "They have an `intellectual,' often New York, often
Jewish, profile, and often began on the left. Some of them still call
themselves Democrats. They carry around literary or political
magazines, not the Bible; they wear tweed jackets, not the petrol blue
suits of Southern televangelists. Most of the time, they profess
liberal ideas on social and moral questions. They are trying neither to
ban abortion nor to impose school prayer. Their ambition lies
elsewhere." By "elsewhere" is meant the world of Washington politics
and power.

The most prominent figure singled out by the French journalists was Mr.
Wolfowitz, who received his B.A. from Cornell, where he studied with
Bloom in his pre-Chicago days, and his Ph. D. in political science and
economics from the University of Chicago. Recruited by Secretary of
Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, Mr. Wolfowitz is widely regarded as a chief
architect of foreign policy.

In "Ravelstein," a biography of Bloom in the form of a novel published
in 2000, Saul Bellow depicts the information-avid professor Abe
Ravelstein fielding calls on his cellphone from former students who
have made their way to high places in government. His disciples include
Philip Gorman, a Wolfowitz-like official in the first Bush
administration who rings up his former professor to show that he's in
the loop. "Powell and Baker," Gorman confides, have advised the
President to call a halt to the 1991 gulf war without a march on
Baghdad: "They send out a terrific army and give a demonstration of up-
to-date high-tech warfare that flesh and blood can't stand up to. But
then they leave the dictatorship in place and steal away. . . ." (Not
this time.)

The Bush administration is rife with Straussians. In addition to Mr.
Wolfowitz, there is his associate Richard N. Perle, chairman of the
Defense Policy Board and the managing partner in Trireme Partners, a
venture-capital company heavily invested in manufacturers of technology
for homeland security and defense. Mr. Perle and Mr. Wolfowitz are both
disciples of the late Albert Wohlstetter, a Straussian professor of
mathematics and military strategist who put forward the idea
of "graduated deterrence" -- limited, small-scale wars fought
with "smart" precision-guided bombs.

William Kristol, a former student of Harvey Mansfield's at Harvard, and
these days editor of The Weekly Standard, is a highly influential voice
in this crowd. "We need to err on the side of being strong," Mr.
Kristol said last week on Fox News. "And if people want to say we're an
imperial power, fine."

How well have Strauss's hawkish disciples understood him? Are high-
level officers in the State Department boning up on his critique of
Aristotle's "Politics" late at night, hunched over his knotty texts
like grad students cramming for an exam? Or have they just gotten the
gist? "It's an opaque and difficult question," says Mr.
Kristol. "Strauss's kind of conservatism is public-spirited. He taught
a great respect for politics and the pursuit of the common good."

To be sure, Strauss asserted "the natural right of the stronger" to
prevail: "The only restraint in which the West can put some confidence
is the tyrant's fear of the West's immense military power." But he was
skeptical of triumphalism, and conscious of the dangers of foreign
occupation: "Even the lowliest men prefer being subjects to men of
their own people rather than to any aliens." And in his critique of
Aristotle's "Politics," he condemned the Spartan Brasidas, whose
countrymen "drew his attention to the fact that he did not promote the
liberation of the Greeks from Athenian domination by killing men who
had never lifted their hands against the liberating Peloponnesians and
were Athenian allies only under duress; if he did not stop his practice
he would convert many who were friends of Sparta into enemies."

For Strauss, defending Western democracy against barbarous enemies was
a natural right, but it was a right that entailed responsibility. The
victor had the obligation to teach and transmit its values, not to
impose them. As long ago as 1964, he recognized the tension that had
accumulated "during the centuries in which Christianity and Islam each
raised its universal claim but had to be satisfied with uneasily
coexisting with its antagonist." Four decades later, nations at the
heart of the two civilizations have engaged in a violent clash and --
for the moment -- the Westerners have won.

Next time we might remember to put a tank at the museum door.
hippo - 23 Sep 2003 00:46 GMT
"Agamemnon" wrote in message

> "hippo" wrote in message

> > "Not-easily-duped" wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Who are you trying to fool. Strauss was a self confessed Zionist NAZI
> Fascist since his teens.

As I said I have never read him and do not know what he is or thinks. You
may be right. -the Troll
Jim F. - 22 Sep 2003 20:23 GMT
> "Not-easily-duped" wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This is from a neo-con who has never read Strauss and who knows no-one in
> the movement who has either.

Well I know lots of conservatives who don't read any books at all,
not even ones by conservative authors.  That's never struck me as
being a point in their favor though.

>Trying to ascribe a specific ideology to
> conservatism is like believing we are descended from Adam and Adam's rib,
> and about as modern.

Well reminds me of Keynes' saying that practical men, who avoid all theory,
are usually the slaves of some dead economist?  I suspect the same
is true for ideology and for people who naively think that they are
anti-ideological.

>The problem with conservatism has always been that it
> does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith which is
> only one side of the equation. Modern conservatism is a mash of ideas from
> Randian relativist libertarianism to religious orthodoxy and everything in
> between.

In other words, conservatism is based on theory and ideology but
it is really just a mishmash that is barely coherent at all.  That doesn't
exactly inspire confidence in conservatism, IMO.

>We do not argue internal ideology because we do not proceed from
> there. We are essentially anti-ideology. If we can be said to collectively
> believe in anything it is the idea of the rights of the individual over the
> rights of the State and that there is not now nor will there ever be a
> viable Utopian State.

Where do you then place the social conservatives who do believe
that the government ought to be intervening in the personal lives
of people so they don't do drugs or engage in illicit sex?
And where does GWB fit with his calls for the Federal government
to subsidize religious organizations through Federally funded
"faith-based" programs?

And I am not sure that hostility to utopianism is a sufficent
defining characteristic of conservatism.  Karl Marx was
in his own way quite hostile to utopianism too, but no one
classifies him as a conservative.

> Calling us reactionary is valid. It is against fool
> who promote social revolution and the false ideals of an Utopian State that
> we react. Without you there would be no conservative movement because there
> would be no need for one. -the Troll
hippo - 23 Sep 2003 01:48 GMT
"Jim F."  wrote in message

> "hippo"  wrote in message

> > "Not-easily-duped" wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> not even ones by conservative authors.  That's never struck me as
> being a point in their favor though.

Could it be that he was/is not as important as the author is making him out
to have been? It might just be possible that I like to make my own decisions
rather than to parrot the ideas of others.

> >Trying to ascribe a specific ideology to
> > conservatism is like believing we are descended from Adam and Adam's rib,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is true for ideology and for people who naively think that they are
> anti-ideological.

And now he is a dead economist so that you may quote him. Conservatism has
no idol. We may read and argue Buckley or Rand without getting tossed out of
the movement for ideological impurity or deviation. That is so because we
have no uniform ideology as I have said.

> >The problem with conservatism has always been that it
> > does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith which is
> > only one side of the equation. Modern conservatism is a mash of ideas from
> > Randian relativist libertarianism to religious orthodoxy and everything in
> > between.

> In other words, conservatism is based on theory and ideology but
> it is really just a mishmash that is barely coherent at all.  That doesn't
> exactly inspire confidence in conservatism, IMO.

You are reading upside down. We have theories which have come together from
diverse origins. They are not formed into a single ideology because we do
not believe in ideology.

> >We do not argue internal ideology because we do not proceed from
> > there. We are essentially anti-ideology. If we can be said to collectively
> > believe in anything it is the idea of the rights of the individual over
> the
> > rights of the State and that there is not now nor will there ever be a
> > viable Utopian State.

> Where do you then place the social conservatives who do believe
> that the government ought to be intervening in the personal lives
> of people so they don't do drugs or engage in illicit sex?
> And where does GWB fit with his calls for the Federal government
> to subsidize religious organizations through Federally funded
> "faith-based" programs?

The social conservatives, as you call them, are a part of the movement. We
are not ideologues remember. Neither are we anarchists or even libertarian.
Some government is required including that needed to protect individuals
from crime. Drug use and certain forms of sex are crimes in this country.
Federal funding to religious organizations serves two purposes. It takes
Federal funds from bureaucrats who don't care and shifts it to programs
which might actually achieve something as with the school chit program. In
the larger sense it weakens Federal authority by reducing its power. Many of
us see both of these as beneficial.

> And I am not sure that hostility to utopianism is a sufficent
> defining characteristic of conservatism.  Karl Marx was
> in his own way quite hostile to utopianism too, but no one
> classifies him as a conservative.

I have come to belief that Marx never intended his arguments as the
foundation of a viable system of government or economy. That does not mean
others have not used it for that purpose or that their ideology derived from
his work is not utopian. Before the raise of socialism and the other left
ideologies politics in the US was regional or based upon local issues. One
party was vaguely federalist and the other vaguely state's rightist but
neither was a major determinant after the Civil War. Conservatism developed
in response to the growth of left ideologies in reaction to it. It had no
competing ideology of its own, only the general belief that social
revolution is inherently evil and stupid because it flew in the face of
everything we have learned about our species through time.

> > Calling us reactionary is valid. It is against fool
> > who promote social revolution and the false ideals of an Utopian State
> that
> > we react. Without you there would be no conservative movement because
> there
> > would be no need for one. -the Troll
Agamemnon - 23 Sep 2003 04:23 GMT
.

> I have come to belief that Marx never intended his arguments as the
> foundation of a viable system of government or economy. That does not mean
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> revolution is inherently evil and stupid because it flew in the face of
> everything we have learned about our species through time.

So you believe in the deliberate creation of child poverty, child slavery,
an illiterate uneducated workforce that can easily be suggested to and which
lives below the bread line, no public health care, a climate where people
fear for their jobs and social security where the chosen people rule over
the masses just like existed in the Victorian era. These are all the makings
of Nazism as described in the Protocols of Zion and Mien Kamf.

> > > Calling us reactionary is valid. It is against fool
> > > who promote social revolution and the false ideals of an Utopian State
> > that
> > > we react. Without you there would be no conservative movement because
> > there
> > > would be no need for one. -the Troll
hippo - 23 Sep 2003 19:58 GMT
"Agamemnon" wrote in message

> "hippo" wrote in message

> > I have come to belief that Marx never intended his arguments as the
> > foundation of a viable system of government or economy. That does not mean
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the masses just like existed in the Victorian era. These are all the makings
> of Nazism as described in the Protocols of Zion and Mien Kamf.

CRAP!
[]
Jim F. - 23 Sep 2003 04:29 GMT
> "Jim F."  wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> to have been? It might just be possible that I like to make my own decisions
> rather than to parrot the ideas of others.

Well in the case of neo-conservatism, Le Strauss does seem to
have been a big influence.  Just ask Irving Kristol (and his
son William), ask Bushie, Paul Wolfowitz, or ask Richard
Perle or former education secretary, William Bennett.  All these
folk, who have been leading figures among the neo-cons are
all Straussians or have been strongly influenced by Leo Strauss
and his disciples.

> > >Trying to ascribe a specific ideology to
> > > conservatism is like believing we are descended from Adam and Adam's
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the movement for ideological impurity or deviation. That is so because we
> have no uniform ideology as I have said.

Speaking of Buckley, I remember reading in John Judis' biography
of Buckley, *William F. Buckley, Jr: Patron Saint of
the Conservatives*, in which he discusses Buckley's failed
attempt to write a work of political philosophy.  Buckley's attempt
to write such a work, ultimately came to nought, not so much
because he was lacking the intellectual capacity or the learning
required for such a work but rather because the political philosophy
that he was attempting to defend was one that is beset by contradictions
and inconsistencies.  Buckley like a great many contemporary conservatives
was attempting to combine a more or less libertarian economic
philosophy (one derived from people like Hayek or Friedman)
with a social conservatism which in contrast with the economic
libertarianism required an activist government to enforce certain
social and cultural norms.  Trying to defend such a combination
of views at a philosophical level proved to be beyond the powers
of even Mr. Buckley, and I would suggest anyone else for that matter.

> > >The problem with conservatism has always been that it
> > > does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith which
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> diverse origins. They are not formed into a single ideology because we do
> not believe in ideology.

The problem is that at a philosophical level these diverse theories
with their diverse origins do not cohere together.  While it is
true that in the US, economic conservatives and social conservatives
have been able to create and maintain a strong political alliance,
it is also true that when considered intellectually, the views of
these two groups are not consistent with one another, and
not even a man of Buckley's considerable intellectual powers
was ever able to show that they could.

> > >We do not argue internal ideology because we do not proceed from
> > > there. We are essentially anti-ideology. If we can be said to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > > rights of the State and that there is not now nor will there ever be a
> > > viable Utopian State.

As I asserted before, a position of anti-ideology is often a cover
for a naive adherence to the theories od dead idealogues (to
paraphrase Keynes).  Moreover, it is often a cover for the
fact that people wish to assert theories and positions that
are lacking in any real philosophical coherence.

> > Where do you then place the social conservatives who do believe
> > that the government ought to be intervening in the personal lives
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Some government is required including that needed to protect individuals
> from crime. Drug use and certain forms of sex are crimes in this country.

In fact the drug wars, have helped to spur a very considerable growth
in government and of government bureacracies.  Not only has the
drug wars cost taxpayers many billions of dollars, they led to a
serious corrosion of our civil liberties, since most violations of
drug wars, being "victimless crimes" cannot be successfully
prosecuted without a very intrusive law enforcement.  Most
genuine libertarians (like Milton Friedman) have called for
the the abolition of most drug laws.  Even Mr. Buckley, to his
credit, has been calling for decriminalization of marijuana
and of harder drugs like heroin.  Support for the drug wars,
seems difficult to reconcile with a belief that individual rights
ought to prevail over the rights of the state.

> Federal funding to religious organizations serves two purposes. It takes
> Federal funds from bureaucrats who don't care and shifts it to programs
> which might actually achieve something as with the school chit program. In
> the larger sense it weakens Federal authority by reducing its power. Many of
> us see both of these as beneficial.

One might also point out that this has the effect of placing the churches
on the Federal gravy train.  To think that the government will not,
sooner or later, extract a quid pro quo from the churches in exchange
for this support, would be most naive.  And the subsidization of
religion by the Federal government seems hardly consistent with
a concern for individual rights, especially the rights of non-believers.

> > And I am not sure that hostility to utopianism is a sufficent
> > defining characteristic of conservatism.  Karl Marx was
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> > there
> > > would be no need for one. -the Troll
Jim F. - 23 Sep 2003 11:09 GMT
> > "Jim F."  wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> of views at a philosophical level proved to be beyond the powers
> of even Mr. Buckley, and I would suggest anyone else for that matter.

And that is because Mr. Buckley was unable to resolve what
is a fundamental contradiction underlying conservatism which
is the contradiction between its espousal of traditional
values and its defense of capitalism which is the great
enemy of traditionalism.  Ad a certain bearded revolutionary
expressed it 150 years ago:

"The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has
put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has
pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man
to his "natural superiors", and has left no other nexus between
man and man than naked self-interest, than callous "cash
payment". It has drowned out
the most heavenly ecstacies of religious fervor, of chivalrous
enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical
calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in
place of the
numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single,
unconscionable freedom -- Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation,
veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked,
shameless, direct, brutal exploitation."

"The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto
honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the
physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its
paid wage
laborers."

"The bourgeoisie has torn away from the family its sentimental veil, and
has reduced the family relation into a mere money relation."

And the Bearded One went on to write:

"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the
instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production,
and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old
modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first
condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant
revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social
conditions,
everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from
all
earlier ones. All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient
and
venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones
become
antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all
that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober
senses
his real condition of life and his relations with his kind."

Of course some of the more profound thinkers of the right
have been cognizant of this contradictiion between capitalism
and traditional values, but none of them as far I can tell has
come close to resolving it.

> > > >The problem with conservatism has always been that it
> > > > does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith which
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
> > > there
> > > > would be no need for one. -the Troll
Agamemnon - 23 Sep 2003 15:22 GMT
> > > "Jim F."  wrote in message
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> the most heavenly ecstacies of religious fervor, of chivalrous
> enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical

So this was obviously written by a racist Jew that knew noting of the
culture of the philistines.

> calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in
> place of the
> numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single,
> unconscionable freedom -- Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation,
> veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked,
> shameless, direct, brutal exploitation."
hippo - 23 Sep 2003 21:34 GMT
"Jim F."  wrote in message

> > "hippo" wrote in message

[]

> > Speaking of Buckley, I remember reading in John Judis' biography
> > of Buckley, *William F. Buckley, Jr: Patron Saint of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > of views at a philosophical level proved to be beyond the powers
> > of even Mr. Buckley, and I would suggest anyone else for that matter.

> And that is because Mr. Buckley was unable to resolve what
> is a fundamental contradiction underlying conservatism which
> is the contradiction between its espousal of traditional
> values and its defense of capitalism which is the great
> enemy of traditionalism.  Ad a certain bearded revolutionary
> expressed it 150 years ago:

> "The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has
> put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> and traditional values, but none of them as far I can tell has
> come close to resolving it.

You still haven't gotten the message. Of course there are contradictions in
human society. There always have been and always will be. Your example isn't
one if them because it is flawed by arguing absolutes. In the first place
the 'Bourgeoisie' only exists in a cohesive monolithic way in the minds of
political theorists. The reality is that the middle class is as diverse as
any class. It has tumbled much of the old establishment in many places but
not by any means all and in an evolutionary way over time as in every
evolutionary process. These old institutions probably needed to be replaced
because they no longer met a social need, but not torn down by the hands of
your bearded revolutionary. We don't need the contradiction you pose
resolved. Society will do that alone and in its own good time without the
inexpert guidance of some intellectually derived  ideology. -the Troll

[]
hippo - 23 Sep 2003 21:06 GMT
"Jim F." wrote in message

> "hippo" wrote in message

> > Could it be that he was/is not as important as the author is making him
> out
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> all Straussians or have been strongly influenced by Leo Strauss
> and his disciples.

That's silly. Only Kristol and Bennett among those on your list even pretend
to be intellectuals or argue on that level. GWB certainly isn't and probably
hasn't read Strauss either. Conservatives are not a cabal of plotters in
basements dredging up justification for what they believe in the writings of
others that you think. We support the system of government and economic
system we have in place against those who would change them. We do not need
an agreed ideology for that reason.

> > > >Trying to ascribe a specific ideology to
> > > > conservatism is like believing we are descended from Adam and Adam's
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> of views at a philosophical level proved to be beyond the powers
> of even Mr. Buckley, and I would suggest anyone else for that matter.

You have just made my argument for me. *We have no ideology* Buckley was
once asked if he believed in democracy. His answer was that it depended upon
when and where in history. He believed, he said, in whatever system provided
the greatest individual freedom. We have convictions and beliefs but *no
ideology.*

> > > >The problem with conservatism has always been that it
> > > > does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith which
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> > diverse origins. They are not formed into a single ideology because we do
> > not believe in ideology.

> The problem is that at a philosophical level these diverse theories
> with their diverse origins do not cohere together.  While it is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> not even a man of Buckley's considerable intellectual powers
> was ever able to show that they could.

The lack of philosophical coherence and intellectual consistency isn't a
problem for us. We have a system that works and politics is not theoretical
but practical with plenty of examples in history to draw from. We believe in
evolutionary change. It is the Left doing the inventing from whole cloth who
needs coherence and consistency which, by the way, they have not been able
to manage yet and never will.

> > > >We do not argue internal ideology because we do not proceed from
> > > > there. We are essentially anti-ideology. If we can be said to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > > > rights of the State and that there is not now nor will there ever be a
> > > > viable Utopian State.

> As I asserted before, a position of anti-ideology is often a cover
> for a naive adherence to the theories od dead idealogues (to
> paraphrase Keynes).  Moreover, it is often a cover for the
> fact that people wish to assert theories and positions that
> are lacking in any real philosophical coherence.

Because you are someone who needs an ideology from which to proceed. Keynes
was a scientist, a mathematician, financial theorist, and statistician.
Scientists believe in absolutes and philosophical coherence. They do because
their disciplines are precise and predictable. There is nothing predictable
about human behavior. When that human is multiplied by hundreds of millions
and is acting as a part of a society it is even less predictable if that
were possible. An experiment will never give the same results twice.
Scientists have short circuited themselves worrying about this since the
Enlightenment. Conservatives don't worry about it because we already
understand there is no coherent truth to governing human society, no
absolutes, nothing ideological.

> > > Where do you then place the social conservatives who do believe
> > > that the government ought to be intervening in the personal lives
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > Some government is required including that needed to protect individuals
> > from crime. Drug use and certain forms of sex are crimes in this country.

> In fact the drug wars, have helped to spur a very considerable growth
> in government and of government bureacracies.  Not only has the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> seems difficult to reconcile with a belief that individual rights
> ought to prevail over the rights of the state.

When the drug laws are removed from the books we will no longer have to
enforce them. That will be at a time when the majority of the governed
agrees it is time to remove them from the books, not when a minority of drug
users thinks it is. You see it as a Federal intrusion, I see it as the
government fulfilling its obligations under the Constitution to protect the
citizenry from whatever the governed understand is a threat to them.

> > Federal funding to religious organizations serves two purposes. It takes
> > Federal funds from bureaucrats who don't care and shifts it to programs
> > which might actually achieve something as with the school chit program. In
> > the larger sense it weakens Federal authority by reducing its power. Many
> of
> > us see both of these as beneficial.

> One might also point out that this has the effect of placing the churches
> on the Federal gravy train.  To think that the government will not,
> sooner or later, extract a quid pro quo from the churches in exchange
> for this support, would be most naive.  And the subsidization of
> religion by the Federal government seems hardly consistent with
> a concern for individual rights, especially the rights of non-believers.

Like many you exaggerate. The money is not to the religion but to services
they provide. It certainly is not a final solution, only a temporary relief
from the inhumanity of bureaucratic indifference and waste. Something you
have never learned is that it isn't institutions that effect real change but
individual humans one-to-one. The churches understand that better than the
government. I am not a believer but sent my brother to a tiny Christian
school where the student-to-teacher ratio was something like 1:10 and the
entire student body was no more than 100 high school aged kids. The teachers
taught because they liked to teach and the results were far beyond even my
most sanguine expectations. There are underprivileged people who deserve the
same option. The fear on the Left is that too many will take advantage of
it. -the Troll

[]
Jim F. - 23 Sep 2003 23:18 GMT
> "Jim F." wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> to be intellectuals or argue on that level. GWB certainly isn't and probably
> hasn't read Strauss either.

Well I would be rather surprised if GWB had ever read Strauss.  Concerning
the neo-cons, many of the original neo-cons were former leftists, with
Irving Kristol having been a member of the Socialist Workers Party
back in his youth.  I think that for these people, the political philosophy
of Leo Strauss and his disciples provided a substitute theory for
that of the Marxism that they had rejected.

>Conservatives are not a cabal of plotters in
> basements dredging up justification for what they believe in the writings of
> others that you think. We support the system of government and economic
> system we have in place against those who would change them. We do not need
> an agreed ideology for that reason.

Well, you, yourself have admitted that conservatism as such did not
come to the fore until the rise of leftist ideologies and movements.
Traditionalism had of course long existed but not until it was
challenged by the left did it begin to become reflective.  Edmund
Burke for instance penned his *Reflections on the Revolution in
France* in response to, of course, the French Revolution.

> > > > >Trying to ascribe a specific ideology to
> > > > > conservatism is like believing we are descended from Adam and Adam's
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> the greatest individual freedom. We have convictions and beliefs but *no
> ideology.*

Well I think a Marxist would also say that the desirability of democracy
would depend upon when and where in history.  Marx is remembered
as a great opponent of capitalism and yet right in the Communist
Manifesto, he penned one of the greatest tributes to capitalism ever
when he wrote:

"The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal
display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire,
found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been
the first to show what man's activity can bring about. It has accomplished
wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and
Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the
shade all former exoduses of nations and crusades."
. . . .
"The bourgeoisie has, through its exploitation of the world market,
given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in
every country. To the great chagrin of reactionaries, it has drawn from
under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All
old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily
being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction
becomes a life and death question for all civilized nations, by industries
that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn
from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not
only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants,
satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring
for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place
of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have
intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations.
And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual
creations of individual nations become common property. National
one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more
impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures,
there arises a world literature."

. . . .

"The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created
more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding
generations together. Subjection of nature's forces to man, machinery,
application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam navigation,
railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation,
canalization or rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground - what
earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces
slumbered in the lap of social labor?"

I would challenge you to find anything in Adam Smith or David Ricardo,
or Friedrich Hayek or Milton Friedman that comes close to Marx in praising
capitalism.  Indeed, Joseph Schumpeter, a conservative economist
of the Austrian school, took his theory of capitalism as a process
of "creative destruction" directly from Marx.

> > > > >The problem with conservatism has always been that it
> > > > > does *not* have an ideological basis unless you count Adam Smith
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> but practical with plenty of examples in history to draw from. We believe in
> evolutionary change.

Well Marxists believe in evolutionary change too, but their conception
of evolutionary social change seems to be closer to the 'punctuated
equilibrium' model of evolution than it would be to gradualism.

Anyway, one person who has attempted to write on historical
materialism from a selectionist evolutionist perspective is
the British sociologist, Alan Carling.  See:

http://info.bris.ac.uk/~potfc/brumaire/carling.htm
http://www.devpsy.lboro.ac.uk/psygroup/seminars/Alan%20Carling.htm
http://www.psa.ac.uk/spgrp/marxism/carling.htm

>It is the Left doing the inventing from whole cloth who
> needs coherence and consistency which, by the way, they have not been able
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Because you are someone who needs an ideology from which to proceed. Keynes
> was a scientist, a mathematician, financial theorist, and statistician.

All of which, everything else being equal, would be points in his
favor.

> Scientists believe in absolutes and philosophical coherence. They do because
> their disciplines are precise and predictable. There is nothing predictable
> about human behavior.

Well, I don't know about that.  It seems to me that human
is often quite predictable, in some cases, all too predictable.
In any case, in the behavioral sciences, it seems to me
that determinism makes a good working hypothesis for
guiding research.  If we take that as our working hypothesis,
then we have at least some chance of discovering whatever
causal regularities might exist.  Whereas, if we don't take
determinism as our working hypothesis, then we may never
discover whatever causal regularities that might exist.

And anyway, while many conservatives like Edmund Burke
may not have been determinists, many thinkers who have
been classified as conservatives like Thomas Hobbes
and David Hume were.

>When that human is multiplied by hundreds of millions
> and is acting as a part of a society it is even less predictable if that
> were possible. An experiment will never give the same results twice.

When you are talking about predicting the future course of human
society, both Marx and Popper were in agreement that our ability
to make such predictions was limited, which was one reason
why Marx was reluctant to develop recipes for the society of
the future.

> Scientists have short circuited themselves worrying about this since the
> Enlightenment. Conservatives don't worry about it because we already
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> government fulfilling its obligations under the Constitution to protect the
> citizenry from whatever the governed understand is a threat to them.

Well as you know the courts in the US have never held to the position
that the Constitution requires the government to protect the
citizenry from whatever THEY deem to be a threat to them.
Under the principle of judicial review, the appellate courts have often
over the years struck down legislation as unconstitutional.
The courts have maintained that the Bill of Rights imposes limitations
on what the Congress, and the president can do in regards to
what the citizenry might rightly or wrongly regard as threats to
their well-being.  At time the principle of judicial review has
been championed by conservatives (as it was from the
late 19th century up through the 1930s) and at other
times been championed by liberals (1950s to present day),
depending on the ideological complexion of the courts.

> > > Federal funding to religious organizations serves two purposes. It takes
> > > Federal funds from bureaucrats who don't care and shifts it to programs
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Like many you exaggerate. The money is not to the religion but to services
> they provide.

Which frees up money for other purposes that they might
have like proselytization.  However, I am surprised that
you do not recognize that such subsidization opens the
door for the government to begin exerting greater and
greater control over the churches since no such subsidies
come without some sort of strings attached.

>It certainly is not a final solution, only a temporary relief
> from the inhumanity of bureaucratic indifference and waste. Something you
> have never learned is that it isn't institutions that effect real change but
> individual humans one-to-one. The churches understand that better than the
> government.

Well having seen the pedophile scandals in the Catholic
Church, I am not sure about that.  It seems to me that
the churches are as likely to be bureaucratic and lacking
in transparency and accountability as other institutions.

>I am not a believer but sent my brother to a tiny Christian
> school where the student-to-teacher ratio was something like 1:10 and the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> []
hippo - 24 Sep 2003 05:57 GMT
"Jim F." wrote in message

> "hippo" wrote in message

> > > have been a big influence.  Just ask Irving Kristol (and his
> > > son William), ask Bushie, Paul Wolfowitz, or ask Richard
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> of Leo Strauss and his disciples provided a substitute theory for
> that of the Marxism that they had rejected.

We don't need a substitute theory as I have said time and again.

> >Conservatives are not a cabal of plotters in
> > basements dredging up justification for what they believe in the writings
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Burke for instance penned his *Reflections on the Revolution in
> France* in response to, of course, the French Revolution.

Conservatism has taken the same course as Traditionalism and for the same
reasons. Good reasons had to be found to prevent the spread of French
Revolutionary idealism to Britain so arguments were cobbled together by
Burke and others. They didn't need much because of the excesses of the
revolution. It wasn't a competing ideology.

> > You have just made my argument for me. *We have no ideology* Buckley was
> > once asked if he believed in democracy. His answer was that it depended
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > the greatest individual freedom. We have convictions and beliefs but *no
> > ideology.*

> Well I think a Marxist would also say that the desirability of democracy
> would depend upon when and where in history.  Marx is remembered
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> of the Austrian school, took his theory of capitalism as a process
> of "creative destruction" directly from Marx.

It could be better praised by admitting it is the only economic system which
works.

-snip-

> > The lack of philosophical coherence and intellectual consistency isn't a
> > problem for us. We have a system that works and politics is not
> theoretical
> > but practical with plenty of examples in history to draw from. We believe
> in
> > evolutionary change.

> Well Marxists believe in evolutionary change too, but their conception
> of evolutionary social change seems to be closer to the 'punctuated
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> http://www.devpsy.lboro.ac.uk/psygroup/seminars/Alan%20Carling.htm
> http://www.psa.ac.uk/spgrp/marxism/carling.htm

This is rapidly becoming an exercise in semantics. In order for me to answer
you I would have to ask what you mean by 'historical materialism', and
'selectivist evolutionism' neither of which I have seen in print at least
since exiting Uni. They are, one supposes, spin offs from Marxspeak which I
never liked much in school because all it ever did was get up arguments
about how X would define the word as opposed to Y.

> >It is the Left doing the inventing from whole cloth
> who
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> All of which, everything else being equal, would be points in his
> favor.

To you the ideologue.

> > Scientists believe in absolutes and philosophical coherence. They do
> because
> > their disciplines are precise and predictable. There is nothing
> predictable
> > about human behavior.

> Well, I don't know about that.  It seems to me that human
> is often quite predictable, in some cases, all too predictable.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> been classified as conservatives like Thomas Hobbes
> and David Hume were.

I don't even like the term 'determinism' because it presupposes that humans
can be/are managed and I don't agree with your 'quite often predictable' at
all. It simply isn't true regardless what your behavioral scientists think.
Why have planned economies failed? They fail because in every instance what
conventional wisdom told the planners would happen didn't. Human beings,
either by themselves or in societies, are not predictable in behaviour. The
potential variables are simply too vast in number to comprehend. Have you
ever heard two psychiatrists agree on anything? I haven't. They can not even
agree in the definitions they use in their trade every day. I think Jung
probably had some useful ideas but they do not try to make a precise science
of human behaviour. In order for anything to be a science and completely
comprehensible one must be able to repeat the same experiment with exactly
the same results every time. With human beings one can not even repeat the
same experiment because the parameters are always changing even millisecond
to millisecond.

> >When that human is multiplied by hundreds of
> millions
> > and is acting as a part of a society it is even less predictable if that
> > were possible. An experiment will never give the same results twice.

> When you are talking about predicting the future course of human
> society, both Marx and Popper were in agreement that our ability
> to make such predictions was limited, which was one reason
> why Marx was reluctant to develop recipes for the society of
> the future.

Wise of both of them but it isn't just the distant future but tomorrow that
can't be predicted for either you, or for me, or for a family, or for
society at large. That is why we need a dynamic system of government which
can not be forced to conform to what some crank thinks he knows and is
persuasive enough to convince others. We are a marvelous creation.
Scientists can probe out depths and give us a printout of the exact weight
of every element in our makeup without being able to predict what we will
do, feel, say, or think in two seconds time.

> > Scientists have short circuited themselves worrying about this since the
> > Enlightenment. Conservatives don't worry about it because we already
> > understand there is no coherent truth to governing human society, no
> > absolutes, nothing ideological.

> > > > > Where do you then place the social conservatives who do believe
> > > > > that the government ought to be intervening in the personal lives
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> times been championed by liberals (1950s to present day),
> depending on the ideological complexion of the courts.

Of course the Constitution limits what laws we may pass. Our present laws
governing the use of drugs and deviant sexual practices have undergone
regular judicial review for decades and have been left in place.

> > > > Federal funding to religious organizations serves two purposes. It
> takes
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> greater control over the churches since no such subsidies
> come without some sort of strings attached.

It might very well.

> >It certainly is not a final solution, only a temporary
> relief
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the churches are as likely to be bureaucratic and lacking
> in transparency and accountability as other institutions.

The Roman Church has needed the criticism it has recently been getting for a
long time. No institution, not even the Church, is perfect. All are human
creations and reflect the imperfections of their creators.

> >I am not a believer but sent my brother to a tiny Christian
> > school where the student-to-teacher ratio was something like 1:10 and the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > []
Jim F. - 25 Sep 2003 14:38 GMT
> "Jim F." wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> We don't need a substitute theory as I have said time and again.

You may not feel that need but it seems apparent to me that
the people that I was referring to did, although that may
get us into looking at the debates between paleo-cons
and neo-cons.  Anywhere here is an article that appeared
in The Economist on Straussianism and the Bush Administration:
http://www.economist.com/people/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1859009

> > >Conservatives are not a cabal of plotters in
> > > basements dredging up justification for what they believe in the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Burke and others. They didn't need much because of the excesses of the
> revolution. It wasn't a competing ideology.

Speaking of Burke, one interesting thing about his *Reflections
on the Revolution in France* is that it was penned in 1790
when that revolution was still very much in its moderate
phase with the with the French then still attempting to
craft a constitutional monarchy on the British model.
Burke perceived, correctly, that this moderation would
not last, that the social forces driving the Revolution would
laead to attempts at much more radical changes in the French
political and social orders.  And of course it should be noted
that one factor leading to the radicalization of the French
Revolution was the resistance by the king and queen and
their court to the curtailment of their political power that
a constitutional monarchy would have entailed.

> > > You have just made my argument for me. *We have no ideology* Buckley was
> > > once asked if he believed in democracy. His answer was that it depended
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> It could be better praised by admitting it is the only economic system which
> works.

Which remains an open question.  And even when talking about capitalism
as an economic system that "works", we must always ask the questions
concerning for whom does it work.  It does not necessarily "work" for all
classes and strata.

> -snip-
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> 'selectivist evolutionism' neither of which I have seen in print at least
> since exiting Uni.

Well by 'historical materialism' one means the theory of history
as elaborated by Marx & Engels and those who work in their
tradition.  A useful treatment of historical materialism in
G.A. Cohen's *Karl Marx's Theory of History; A Defence*
published by Oxford University Press (for the UK) and by
Princeton University Press (for the US).  Historical materialism
essentially is a theory of history which sees its movement as
being conditioned by a dialectic between the superstructure
(i.e. institututions like the state, the law, religion, and ideology)
and the substructure - the economic base.  And the evolution
of the economic base is seen as being conditioned by a dialectic
between the forces of production and the social relations of
production.  That is a very compressed statement of Marx's
theory of history as presented by Cohen in his book.

By 'selectionist evolutionism', I am referring to attempt to
explain social and cultural evolution in terms of the application
of principles analogous to that of the principle of natural
selection in Darwinian biology.  Your old friend
Friedrich Hayek was a pioneer in the development of
selectionist approaches to social evolution.  As was his
friend Karl Popper who in his later work applied a selectionist
paradigm to such epistemology (his evolutionary epistemology).
Richard Dawkins in his book *The Selfish Gene* presented
one form of selectionist evolutionism with this theory of
memetics.

Alan Carling has attempted to apply a selectionist evolutionism
to the materialist conception of history as Marxists have
traditionally understand it.

>They are, one supposes, spin offs from Marxspeak which I
> never liked much in school because all it ever did was get up arguments
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> can be/are managed and I don't agree with your 'quite often predictable' at
> all. It simply isn't true regardless what your behavioral scientists think.

Well behavioral scientists like Ivan Pavlov, John B. Watson, B.F. Skinner
and their disciples managed to spend a good number of decades
demonstrating that much of human behavior can be understood in
causal terms.

> Why have planned economies failed? They fail because in every instance what
> conventional wisdom told the planners would happen didn't. Human beings,
> either by themselves or in societies, are not predictable in behaviour.

Ah the 'socialist calculation' debate rears its head once again!
A good overview of it can be found at:
http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/essays/paretian/social.htm

It looks to me like you are attempting to restate one of Hayek's
arguments - that rational economic planning requires vastly
greater amounts of information that can ever be gathered
by planners.  Over the years there have been various rebuttals
to Hayek from socialist economists.  The Polish Marxist economist,
Oskar Lange, and more recent people like Alec Nove and
John Roemer have proposed models of market socialism
as an answer to the Hayekian objections to socialist economic
planning.  Other ways of answering Hayek have been offered
by people like Paul Cockshott:
http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/woppokear/_5F014.htm
http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/woppokear/_5F015.htm

>The
> potential variables are simply too vast in number to comprehend. Have you
> ever heard two psychiatrists agree on anything? I haven't. They can not even
> agree in the definitions they use in their trade every day. I think Jung
> probably had some useful ideas but they do not try to make a precise science
> of human behaviour.

While I think the psychoanalysts had some useful ideas I don't think
they had a clue as how to construct a science of behavior.

>In order for anything to be a science and completely
> comprehensible one must be able to repeat the same experiment with exactly
> the same results every time. With human beings one can not even repeat the
> same experiment because the parameters are always changing even millisecond
> to millisecond.

If one took this argument literally, then that would seem to rule
out most of natural science since the same thing could be said
for almost sort of laboratory experiment, since one can never
be absolutely sure that one has full control over all of the
relevant variables.

> > >When that human is multiplied by hundreds of
> > millions
[quoted text clipped - 145 lines]
> > >
> > > []
hippo - 27 Sep 2003 03:38 GMT
"Jim F." wrote in message

> "hippo"  wrote in message

> > We don't need a substitute theory as I have said time and again.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> in The Economist on Straussianism and the Bush Administration:
> http://www.economist.com/people/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1859009

Paleo-cons, sheesh. Having ideas how one would like to see one's government
does not translate into an ideology. None of the people you mention advocate
radical changes to the structure of the US economy or government. I read
your article and found it both superficial and biased. Most of the neo-cons,
as you refer to them, are not intellectuals and would bridle at the idea. It
may sound strange to you and the Economist but everyone doesn't fit neatly
into categories and not everyone needs vindication by membership in some
ideological club. It has always been one of my objections to history written
by intellectuals. They more often than not read far too much into it than is
in fact there. There are many socialists or worse who went over all the way
like Orwell and were shocked at what they found. Orwell never developed a
counter ideology, he merely pointed up the defects in what he had personally
witnessed in Spain.

> > Conservatism has taken the same course as Traditionalism and for the same
> > reasons. Good reasons had to be found to prevent the spread of French
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> their court to the curtailment of their political power that
> a constitutional monarchy would have entailed.

It was a wise observation since it was the first real social revolution of
modern times. The US revolution was not. We now know to expect that
social revolutions will frequently get out of hand.

> > It could be better praised by admitting it is the only economic system
> which
> > works.

> Which remains an open question.  And even when talking about capitalism
> as an economic system that "works", we must always ask the questions
> concerning for whom does it work.  It does not necessarily "work" for all
> classes and strata.

It is not an open question for me. It is the system we developed naturally
when we traded the first sea shell for a bit of flint tens of thousands of
years ago. It is absolutely equitable since it does not discriminate between
a beggar's money or a king's. Economic systems must first
of all function. If they don't then they are useless. Political systems are
evolved to concern themselves with social ideas of equality and the like,
not economic systems. It is the penultimate idiocy of the Left that they
have never been able to understand that basic obvious truth. The beauty of
the free market is that it will function even within another system meant to
replace it as the black market did in the USSR and the PRC. Like it or not,
accept it or not, the free market will always be there.

> > -snip-

> > This is rapidly becoming an exercise in semantics. In order for me to
> answer
> > you I would have to ask what you mean by 'historical materialism', and
> > 'selectivist evolutionism' neither of which I have seen in print at least
> > since exiting Uni.

> Well by 'historical materialism' one means the theory of history
> as elaborated by Marx & Engels and those who work in their
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> to the materialist conception of history as Marxists have
> traditionally understand it.

Groan, I was right, see below.

> >They are, one supposes, spin offs from Marxspeak which I
> > never liked much in school because all it ever did was get up arguments
> > about how X would define the word as opposed to Y.

> > I don't even like the term 'determinism' because it presupposes that
> humans
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> demonstrating that much of human behavior can be understood in
> causal terms.

Casual terms? You think a casual understanding of human behavior is
sufficient for making absolute political decisions? I don't and even the
term 'casual' is pushing it.

> > Why have planned economies failed? They fail because in every instance
> what
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/woppokear/_5F014.htm
> http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/woppokear/_5F015.htm

There is no viable way to 'plan' an economy. As I have said the variables
are infinite. You would need to use every citizen as his own
predictor/planner which, of course, is a market economy.

> >The
> > potential variables are simply too vast in number to comprehend. Have you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> While I think the psychoanalysts had some useful ideas I don't think
> they had a clue as how to construct a science of behavior.

Good for you. They can't even agree about how to discuss it at their forums.

> >In order for anything to be a science and completely
> > comprehensible one must be able to repeat the same experiment with exactly
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> be absolutely sure that one has full control over all of the
> relevant variables.

Experiments in natural history (on the levels in which we have competency
and the capacity to measure) are consistently repeatable except those
involving behavior. For some we lack the mechanics for absolute precision
but the theoretical results are accepted. -the Troll

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