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History Forum / General / Ancient History / January 2006Reconciling Biblical Numbers: Three Million at Sinai is making a Mountain out of a Molehill :: by Martin Winer
Synopsis: How then do we reconcile the Torah's twice repeated 600 thousand figure with the contradictions with history this causes? Recall our flawed Flintstone proof. The problem was with the dictionary we were consulting. In this case, the problem occurs with the translation of the Hebrew 'eleph'. "The issue of Exodus 12:37 is an interpretive one. The Hebrew word 'eleph' can be translated 'thousand,' but it is also rendered in the Bible as 'clans' and 'military units.'" [15] Consider the following Torah quotes. Where the Hebrew word 'ELEPH' is used, I will CAPITALIZE the translation. http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=106529 http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=98052 > Synopsis: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=106529 > http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=98052 So how many people are in a century or a legion? The right answer is it depends on just about everything you would care to name. >So how many people are in a century or a legion? The right answer is it >depends on just about everything you would care to name. My article mentions the figure 78,000 which is a result of the more complicated calculation made by the author in the footnotes. The right answer would have to mesh with archaeology. I would stipulate to that. > > Synopsis: > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > So how many people are in a century or a legion? The right answer is it > depends on just about everything you would care to name. Yep. Often they start up at an approx size. Then over time they change strength but the orginal wording remains. During WW2 different armies have different numbers of troops in their divisions and these divisions often had major variations within armies. The other issue is that 50% of an army is not attached to any division at all. If so the figure of 600 military units may be a underestimation. By the way ELEPH could mean chief as well as unit. > Synopsis: > How then do we reconcile the Torah's twice repeated 600 thousand figure > with the contradictions with history this causes? Recall our flawed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the following Torah quotes. Where the Hebrew word 'ELEPH' is used, I > will CAPITALIZE the translation. > http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=106529 > http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=98052 Why would you bother trying to reconcile numbers with reality without first trying to reconcile all the magic and miracles with reality? Playing with number is in the noise compared to the rest of it.  SignatureFreshmen orientation lectures in college inform the students encyclodedias are worthless sources for college level work. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3566 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4 >Why would you bother trying to reconcile numbers with reality without first trying to reconcile all >the magic and miracles with reality? Playing with number is in the noise compared to the rest of it. Actually I'm attempting to do both at once. My second article (and this is why I listed both) talks about the Kuzari proof. http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=98052 In summation Kuzari Proof = 3 million people witnessed God at Sinai, and 3 million people can't be fooled. So by reducing the numbers of witnesses, I open up the possibility of other explanations of what occurred in the ancient Middle East. Best regards...MCW >>Why would you bother trying to reconcile numbers with reality without first trying to reconcile all >>the magic and miracles with reality? Playing with number is in the noise compared to the rest of it. > Actually I'm attempting to do both at once. My second article (and > this is why I listed both) talks about the Kuzari proof. > http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=98052 > In summation > Kuzari Proof = 3 million people witnessed God at Sinai, and 3 million > people can't be fooled. Who is this Kuzari idiot? > So by reducing the numbers of witnesses, I open up the possibility of > other explanations of what occurred in the ancient Middle East. Fact: There is no evidence of any Hebrews ever in Egypt. Fact: There is no evidence of any Exodus. Therefore there a no numbers in need of reducing as there is no evidence the entire story is other than a myth. You like numbers? Stand people three feet apart. That gives you roughly 1800 per mile. Make it 2000 per mile. One million people stretch 500 miles. Jerusalem to the Nile Delta is about 200 miles. So they could have passed their possessions hand to hand from Egypt to Jerusalem it at least two rows and with better estimates three rows. Where did 3 million pounds of sh.t per day go? What about the 9 million liters of urine? 200 burials per day? SignatureOperation Enduring Freedom has become Operation Screw the Pooch. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3546 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4 >Who is this Kuzari idiot? Kuzari is a book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzari (kuzari <==> khazars) BTW, not a book or argument I agree with. >Fact: There is no evidence of any Hebrews ever in Egypt. >Fact: There is no evidence of any Exodus. There is some evidence of worker revolts and exodus' on a small scale. Perhaps these are the foundation for the story. >You like numbers? Stand people three feet apart. That gives you roughly 1800 per mi......etc I agree with you, can't be millions >>Who is this Kuzari idiot? > > Kuzari is a book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzari > (kuzari <==> khazars) > BTW, not a book or argument I agree with. >>Fact: There is no evidence of any Hebrews ever in Egypt. >>Fact: There is no evidence of any Exodus. > There is some evidence of worker revolts and exodus' on a small scale. > Perhaps these are the foundation for the story. Or more likely all the stories were invented shortly before they first appear in history in the late 2nd c. BC in the Greek Septuagint. The idea that the Septuagint is a translation of something earlier was first invented by Josephus three centuries later. All of the New Testment mentions of Old Testament material comes from the Septuagint. There is no sign anyone knew of a "hebrew" version until 4th or 5th century AD. >>You like numbers? Stand people three feet apart. That gives you roughly 1800 per mi......etc > I agree with you, can't be millions I think we agree whoever invented these stories was innumerate. SignatureThe biggest Iraq lie of all is they died to protect our freedoms. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3551 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4 :There is no sign anyone knew of a "hebrew" version :until 4th or 5th century AD. But the practice of borrowing or recasting other foundation myths is replete throughout history. See: http://www.tomharpur.com/Reviews/PaganChrist.asp > :There is no sign anyone knew of a "hebrew" version > :until 4th or 5th century AD. > But the practice of borrowing or recasting other foundation myths is > replete throughout history. True but that is different from who did this recasting and in what language. The idea that there was something before the Septuagint in a different, and dead, language has no more basis in fact than that Moses wrote the Torah. SignatureHow can there be a war on terror with prisoners of war? -- The Iron Webmaster, 3552 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4 >True but that is different from who did this recasting and in what language. The idea that there >was something before the Septuagint in a different, and dead, language has no more basis in fact >than that Moses wrote the Torah. Not a dead language, a proto language. Eg, Shakespearean English vs modern. >>True but that is different from who did this recasting and in what language. The idea that there >>was something before the Septuagint in a different, and dead, language has no more basis in fact >>than that Moses wrote the Torah. > Not a dead language, a proto language. Eg, Shakespearean English vs modern. The only way proto or paleo "hebrew" is distinguishable from Phoenician is by consulting the bible to see where "jews" lived. That is called circular reasoning. Absent the bible it would all be called phoenician. The constant reference to the bible to distinguish the "two" languages and that it is solely based upon the stories in it shows there is no difference. SignatureAll of the world enjoys humans rights except the Palestinian people. -- The Iron Webmasster, 3557 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Blame Israel http://www.ussliberty.org a10 |
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