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History Forum / General / Ancient History / January 2006Black Etruscans?
Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html The man depicted in the fresco in the second photo looks like a black african. What do you people make of this? Rondo Noplis wrote: 1137925615.708352.28400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html > > The man depicted in the fresco in the second photo looks like a black > african. What do you people make of this? He is brown and has a Greek nose.  Signaturep.a. > Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html > > The man depicted in the fresco in the second photo looks like a black > african. What do you people make of this? Nothing. We have barely begun to reconstruct most of the western Med relationships from Etruscan times and older. One would be surprised not to find black Africans represented some place. Rather descendents of mixed Etruscan/BAs and the odds of the mix make skin color pot luck. As another person notes, the nose is Greek/Aqualine so mixed characteristics are not a surprise. As to brown rather than black, the farther north one goes in Africa the browner they are even without intermarrying that we know of. One presumes the people on the coast of the Med always intermarried at least to their nearest neighbors and genes migrated around the coastline. SignatureThe US would be more like Israel if when the assassination of JFK was memorialized, 20% of the country would celebrate Oswald. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3537 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml environmentalism http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a9 > Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html > > The man depicted in the fresco in the second photo looks like a black > african. What do you people make of this? AFAIR it is just the colour used in tombs to denote men combined with a very intensive colour photography. Scroll farther down for the picture of the musician and the dancing girl, again two different skin colours used, this time, due to an overexposed photo, somewhat lighter than true. And than why shouldn't there be a black african depicted, the northern Med had been trading with the southern Med for centuries, the Etruscan were close allies of the Phoenicians. have fun Uwe Mueller >> Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > musician and the dancing girl, again two different skin colours used, this > time, due to an overexposed photo, somewhat lighter than true. Men worked outdoors and therefore tanned. Women stayed inside and stayed white. If you were a man that stayed indoors you were likened to a woman because of your paleness. Read Aristophanes Clouds. > And than why shouldn't there be a black african depicted, the northern Med > had been trading with the southern Med for centuries, the Etruscan were > close allies of the Phoenicians. All of the northern Africans where white and still are today. > have fun > > Uwe Mueller In sci.archaeology message news:VOCdnSxG54zwGE7eRVnyuw@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >>> Look at this >>> http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > All of the northern Africans where white and still are today. North africans are a gradient between North african Negroid and North africans of european descent. Some north africans have pigments as dark as any equitorial african group. >>>> Look at this >>>> http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > africans of european descent. Some north africans have pigments as > dark as any equitorial african group. North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern Africans. In fact the light skinned northern African M1 DNA linage is the predominant linage in Africa and may have in fact evolved in Asia. In sci.archaeology message news:zrKdnRN3wLINe07eRVny3g@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : > North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north > Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern > Africans. In fact the light skinned northern African M1 DNA > linage is the predominant linage in Africa and may have in fact > evolved in Asia. Bullshit. Go find another group to kook up. >> North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north >> Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bullshit. Go find another group to kook up. Get an education you idiot and read some population genetics research papers. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications.html In sci.archaeology message <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : > . >> In sci.archaeology message [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Get an education you idiot and read some population genetics > research papers. So you think a little bit of trivial knowledge you picked up in a coffee table science magazine somehow makes you an expert? What is your primary science degree Mr. Anonymous. Another aspousing expert who flies in here but can't give his name. > http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications.html You think posting a web link is some degree in molecular anthropology? Well your androgeny idol which you worship at may make your testicles feel warm, but Y chromosome for real population genetics is about as useful as a divining rod for finding deep sea oil. > In sci.archaeology message news:zrKdnRN3wLINe07eRVny3g@pipex.net > by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >>North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north >>Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern >>Africans. In fact the light skinned northern African M1 DNA >>linage is the predominant linage in Africa and may have in fact >>evolved in Asia. > Bullshit. Go find another group to kook up. The man is trying to tell you something. You could at least take the time to learn something. The farther up the Nile the darker the Egyptian. The lightest were near the coast. Propinquity would work along the coast as well as it works any place else. SignatureNow that we know the US pays for good news stories in Iraq neither we nor the Iraqis can ever trust any good news story from Iraq. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3553 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4 >In sci.archaeology message news:zrKdnRN3wLINe07eRVny3g@pipex.net >by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Bullshit. Go find another group to kook up. I don't know about their DNA but look at the skin colour of most of this lot. http://tinyurl.com/7j5zq Eric Stevens >>> North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north >>> Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Eric Stevens Some of those Berbers are Germans. >>>> North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north >>>> Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Some of those Berbers are Germans. So what. No doubt some of those Germans are Berbers. Eric Stevens >>>>> North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north >>>>> Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Eric Stevens And at least some of the Berbers are actually Berbers. Most aren't all that dark considering the climate. >>>>North Africans are not of European decent. The people of north >>>>Africa were naturally light skinned compared to southern [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Some of those Berbers are Germans. Not impossible. The Vandals ended up in North Africa. SignatureYou can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? One gets the impression that they are a special breed, all padding about on big hairy feet with their heads stuck in some hole while flies buzz about their posteriors. Judging from the surnames some are Scotsmen; about which no more need be said. > In sci.archaeology message > news:zrKdnRN3wLINe07eRVny3g@pipex.net [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Bullshit. Go find another group to kook up. > Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Judging from the surnames some are Scotsmen; about > which no more need be said. Uwe is a Scotsman? Somehow I thought it was a german female name. Learn something new everyday. > Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? At need, yes. But no poster on this thread is an archaeologist. This is also cross-posted to s.h.a. Do you have the same question of historians? > One gets the impression that they are a special > breed, all padding about on big hairy feet with [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >>Bullshit. Go find another group to kook up. > > Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? > > At need, yes. Working on building sites does wondrous things to the language you can use. There are worlds of - ehm, new words to learn, colourfull descriptions for body parts or functions, very imaginative terms for tracing ancestry, ... :-) > > But no poster on this thread is an archaeologist. Sorry to disappoint you. But I have only posted once. > This is also cross-posted to s.h.a. Do you have the same > question of historians? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > their heads stuck in some hole while flies buzz > > about their posteriors. Why was the part about 'being covered in mud and slime' omitted? > snip > have fun Uwe Mueller >>>Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > body parts or functions, very imaginative terms for tracing ancestry, ... > :-) And then there's all the ways one can suggest another's eternal destination, and fanciful (if explicit) methods of getting there, usually sooner rather than later. >>But no poster on this thread is an archaeologist. > > Sorry to disappoint you. But I have only posted once. Grrr. Sorry. You're right, of course. I see your name is just below Giwer's. I probably just skated past that section, as I try to avoid him whenever I can. (Of course, sometimes I can't.) >>This is also cross-posted to s.h.a. Do you have the same >>question of historians? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why was the part about 'being covered in mud and slime' omitted? And why did he leave out the beer! He left out the beer! Uwe Müller wrote: > "Tom McDonald" <tmcdonald2672@nohormelcharter.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:ZkeBf.372$F16.230@fe04.lga... > >>>>Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? > snip > >>>>One gets the impression that they are a special >>>>breed, all padding about on big hairy feet with >>>>their heads stuck in some hole while flies buzz >>>>about their posteriors. > >> Why was the part about 'being covered in mud and slime' omitted? > And why did he leave out the beer! He left out the beer! No need to mention that. Everyone knows about archaeologists and beer I once worked on a dig in Bavaria. About the first thing that happened on the site was the setting up of a huge fridge. The beer lorry would come about three times a week to refill it. On the top it displayed a bright red sticker ' You can drink too much, but never enough.' have fun Uwe Mueller > Are all archaeologists as RUDE as this? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Judging from the surnames some are Scotsmen; about > which no more need be said. [There are no further posts from this correspondent as he was later killed by a falling Scotsman.] SignatureYou can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 > Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html > > The man depicted in the fresco in the second photo looks like a black > african. What do you people make of this? In classical times, the people of the Mediterranean Region had no concept of race. They believed that the reason people to the South had darker skin was because it was burnt by the sun,. Similarly the lighter colour of Northern people was deemed to be due to scarcity of sunlight. Bernard. In sci.archaeology message news:1137949946.891462.188410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com by "bernard" <bernard_connor11@hotmail.com> . . . : >> Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Similarly the lighter colour of Northern people was deemed to be > due to scarcity of sunlight. And if you danced around alot naked you would tend to be blackened. The females depicted in the fresco have long flowing hair, not typical of most africans. The nose is neither greek, roman or phonecian, I would think it a depiction of locals. >> Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bernard. More like race = nationality which is cultural. The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of tropical African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in other parts of southern Europe. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://sambali.blogspot.com/ > The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of tropical > African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in other parts of > southern Europe. What do you mean by tropical ? Do you mean that the Sahara in northern Africa was once a tropical rain forest at the time that the people of northern Africa who were white and coastal dwellers sailed to the Aegean. And everyone in Europe came from Africa so what is your point ? > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala > http://sambali.blogspot.com/ In sci.archaeology message news:P-2dnQU4i5RVkkjeRVny3g@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >> The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of >> tropical African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dwellers sailed to the Aegean. And everyone in Europe came from > Africa so what is your point ? The people of the aegean sea, macedonia, bulgaria show recent gene flow from africa, in particular two studies done on HLA reveal the increased frequency of trace alleles that are nodal in sub-saharan africa, the likely source in nubia was postulated. A19 subtypes are very high along the coastal mediterranean and iberia relative to more nothern areas, excepting the west african haplotype A29 Cw16 B44 which is spread up the western coast of europe. The evidence for repeated gene flow from africa was first documented in Tiskoff et al. Science, 1996. The sardinians show a high level of A*30 B18, only trace levels are found in europeans, including italians. A* alleles commonly found in europeans are A*02, *03, *01, *24, *11. A*23, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 68, 69, 74 are found more densely in africans.A*69 and A*80 is a very rare marker of recent african origin, it is even rare in africa and is nodal in SSA Macedonians A*23 = 3.5% A*29 = 1.2% (likeli from western mediterranean) A*30 = 1.7% from north and east africa A*31 = 2.0% from africa via middle east A*32 = 3.2% A*33 = 1.2% A*68 = 3.8% There are several B alleles that are also suspect recent african origin. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-sharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens 2001:57:118-127 Bulgarians A*2301 = 5.5% A*2902 = 1.0% A*3001 = 1.0% A*3004 = 1.0% A*310102 = 1.82% A*3201 = 8.2% A*3301 = 1.8% A*68011 = 1.8% A*6901 = 1.8 A*8001 = 1.0% HLA polymorphisms defined by high resolution typing methods in comparison with other populations. Tissue antigens 2002 60:496-504 Greeks A*23 = 2.0% A*29 = 3.0 A*30 = 3.6 A*31 = 2.1% A*32 = 6.8% A*33 = 3.2% A*68 = 3.5% A*69 = 0.6% A*74 = 0.4%* *A*80 can only be typed by high resolution typing at this time it was not typed. Papassavas et al. Human Immunology 61, 615-623 (2000) Southern Spain A*23 = 3.2% A*29 = 7.5% A*30 = 6.4% A*31 = 2.6% A*32 = 3.6% A*33 = 2.0% A*66 = 0.2% A*68 & A*69 = 4.7% A*80 Not typed Immunogenetics, Campillo et all 2006. (In publication) Sardinia A*23 1% A*29 2% A*30 23% (Similar to levels seen in parts of africa) A*31 0.3% A*32 8.1% A*33 3.5% A*X 1.4% (A36,66,74, or 80) Tissue Antigens 1992 40:165-174 These levels can be contrasted with peoples distal from the mediterranean German A*23 2% A*29 2.3% A*30 2.0% A*31 2.2% A*32 3.4% A*33 0.9% A*Other (<0.5%) A*68&69 4.241% (gene flow of A28 in this instance appears to be from the east) Human Immunology 64 137-151 (2003) The levels of these neo-african alleloes range from 16 to 25% in the northern mediterranean compared to ranges from 25 to 50% in africa, whereas the levels in central asia and the east range from almost 0% in parts of austronesia, taiwans aboriginals, eskimoes, buyi, and even peoples who live proximal such as Todja and Tuvinians. BOth HLA haplotype and alleles show a genetic pressure from africa with numbers of required migrations during the paleolithic and holocene. The claims of back flow from asia into africa are muted, recent papers investigating cameroon and west africa republic reveal no evidence of back flow of clearly eurasian derived markers. HLA shows no evidence of A*24 or A*11, the classic markers of asians, into africa, kenya supports its own diversity of A*24, and only in extreme north africa A*11 has trace levels. Back flow into the region is not an explanation of north african skin pigmentations. Previous reports have confused african origins and saharan population depletions with back-migrations, these affects are masked by the peculiar genetics of the Y chromosome, more diverse loci, when sampled adequately in africa refute such claims. Quite the opposite any study of HLA looking for back flow finds the opposite, strong evidence of recent geneflow from africa to all except the most isolated regions. About the only people who can claim to be absent of all but trace recent geneflow are the taiwan aboriginals and the eskimoes. Even the Irish, have a haplotype A29 Cw16 B4403 whose center of diversity for both A29 and Cw16 is in west africa, including the haplotype itself. A route of cultural/pastoral migration mediated by the berbers has been proposed, a route up eastern spain, the western coast of france to Ireland, the gene frequency in the Irish is A-Cw-B-DR 2.0%, A-Cw-B 3.4%, B-DR 4.2%, A29 allele frequency of 4.7% IOW almost all of the A*29 in Irish is of a single haplotype which is comprised of many genes (i.e. recent origin) from west africa. Such markers are more evident in spain, sardinia, greece, italy and s. france. As a result your original claims, as show by the recent molecular genetic literature are Bullshit. >>> The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of >>> tropical African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The people of the aegean sea, macedonia, bulgaria show recent gene > flow from africa, in particular two studies done on HLA reveal the Which people of Macedonia and Bulgaria may I ask. Are these the indigenous Greeks of Macedonia and the indigenous Bulgarians of Bulgaria or recent economic migrants from Africa ? > increased frequency of trace alleles that are nodal in sub-saharan > africa, the likely source in nubia was postulated. A19 subtypes are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The evidence for repeated gene flow from africa was first > documented in Tiskoff et al. Science, 1996. The sardinians show a > As a result your original claims, as show by the recent molecular > genetic literature are Bullshit. Your research paper does not provide any information about sample size or where the sampling was done and under what criteria it was selected. On top of that its ten years OUT OF DATE and uses methodology that is no longer considered appropriate or accurate in population genetics research. Go and read some modern research based YC-DNA analysis. There are no recent sub-Saharan genes in the DNA of either Greeks whether they be Aegean or Macedonian Greeks, or Bulgarians. The only recent African genes in these populations are E-M35 derivatives of M1 YAP which is a white northern African linage. As the AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034 report shows the European portion of this linage ie. E-M35, E-M78, E-M81 and E-M123 is from northern Africa from countries with an indigenous white population. Egyptian murals always show northern Africans as white. Origin, diffusion and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf The D-M174 haplogroup derivative of M1 YAP is found only in Japan and is why Japanese men have square faces like southern Europeans rather than round faces like the Chinese. All other Greek and Bulgarian linages are from Asia or the Middle East and a large proportion of the population of tropical central Africa, nearly half actually came from Asia. “A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes” http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p1197-1214.pdf >>>> The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of >>>> tropical African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p1197-1214.pdf Other than the Y crhomosome what else moved? If nothing else shows up that is all that moved. In sci.archaeology message news:EemdnSMX6ICZFEjeRVnysg@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >> In sci.archaeology message >> <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > appropriate or accurate in population genetics research. Go and > read some modern research based YC-DNA analysis. Sample sizes in europe currently is about 100,000 total individuals in the HLA database and as part of studies. Typical countries for example for greece the study I quoted was the second study done. Combined HLA are the most highly sampled loci, period. Current estimates of the database are around 2 million sampled individuals. 13,000 germans were sampled, 24,000 dutch, 2000 Irish, 10,000 northern Irish, . . . . . . . .12 different regions of Iberia, 172 macedonians, http://www.allelefrequencies.net/searchAllelePart3- 1.asp?Population=Greece%20pop3 http://www.allelefrequencies.net/searchAllelePart3- 1.asp?Population=Greece%20North And of course the 231 in the original study. > There are no recent sub-Saharan genes in the DNA of either > Greeks whether they be Aegean or Macedonian Greeks, or > Bulgarians. Hey and A*80 came from the moon. You are up for the Inger E Johansson award in logical rigor and you get a free trip on the river that aint just a river in Egypt. > The only recent African genes in these populations are E-M35 > derivatives of M1 YAP which is a white northern African linage. White, yes indeed. You mean those whites that have west african genes. Must be quite a shame for you to find out you have african ancestors. > As the AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034 report shows the European > portion of this linage ie. E-M35, E-M78, E-M81 and E-M123 is > from northern Africa from countries with an indigenous white > population. Egyptian murals always show northern Africans as > white. The first Pharoahs of egypt were from the Sudan. Y chromosome spread from africa about 30 kya, everyone in the world has a 'recent' african Y chromosome. The TMRCA for Y chromosome postdates the mtDNA TMRCA by 100,000 years and the PMRCA for both are in africa. Barring some unforeseen revision of Y chromosome evolution (which would render it useless for any population studies) current exoafrica Y chromosomal makeup is a recent africa derived consequence. Way back somewhere your male lineage ancestor spoke a click language and ran around the african bush naked like a jay-bird, deal with it. > Origin, diffusion and differentiation of Y-chromosome > haplogroups E and J: inferences on the Neolithization of Europe [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > “A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported > by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes” So basically what you are saying is the only papers you deal with concern haploid male genetics, and at best you don't even understand those rigorously. Is this correct? >>> In sci.archaeology message >>> <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > were sampled, 24,000 dutch, 2000 Irish, 10,000 northern Irish, . . . > . . . . .12 different regions of Iberia, 172 macedonians, Which part of Macedonia. Thessaloniki, where ? Does it distinguish between Macedonians that were refugees from Pontus and those that were always there ? > http://www.allelefrequencies.net/searchAllelePart3- > 1.asp?Population=Greece%20pop3 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And of course the 231 in the original study. They don't even know if the sampled population was urban or rural and the sample came from all over Greece and only goes back 2 genrations. Under those conditions the sample cannot be said to be representative at all. What you need are isolated villages or a sample of 20,000. >> There are no recent sub-Saharan genes in the DNA of either >> Greeks whether they be Aegean or Macedonian Greeks, or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > genes. Must be quite a shame for you to find out you have african > ancestors. Everyone has African ancestors. Those of the E-M35 linage are white. Almost all of the indigenous population of northern Africa is E-M35 and white. That is the only recent African lineage in the indigenous populations of Europe since the first time they set foot there. Live with it. >> As the AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034 report shows the European >> portion of this linage ie. E-M35, E-M78, E-M81 and E-M123 is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > somewhere your male lineage ancestor spoke a click language and ran > around the african bush naked like a jay-bird, deal with it. 100,000 years ago every modern European ancestor was in Africa. There was no biological distinction between Greeks, Germans, Arabs or even Native American Indians because they were all of one linage, M168 P9. If you are finding older African lineages not descended from M169 in Greeks but not in other Europeans then your research is WRONG ! Or is the African linage you are finding in Greeks the M173 sub lineage that evolved in Asia and then migrated back to Africa to northern Camaroon. If that is so then these Africans are Caucasians since all decedents of M173 are Caucasians and they didn't come to Greece and Bulgaria from Africa but came to Greece and Bulgaria from Asia on their way to Africa. What you research might actual be indicating is that Greeks colonised Africa which they in fact did for over 3500 years. >> Origin, diffusion and differentiation of Y-chromosome >> haplogroups E and J: inferences on the Neolithization of Europe [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > concern haploid male genetics, and at best you don't even understand > those rigorously. Is this correct? The only papers worth dealing with are papers concerning haploid male genetics and they totally refute your false claims which no scientist takes seriously. Northern Africans were white. Live with it. In sci.archaeology message news:pYCdnV0fBrbZ9EveRVny0Q@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >> Sample sizes in europe currently is about 100,000 total >> individuals in the HLA database and as part of studies. Typical [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > distinguish between Macedonians that were refugees from Pontus > and those that were always there ? You know how to look up a reference don't you? I thought not. You know how to read a paper don't you? I though not. The macedonian paper provides a foundation for comparison with the greek papers results. OK. N = ~350,000 individuals in >300 populations Frequency Zambia Lusaka 0.0230 Mali Bandiagara 0.0150 Spain Minorca 0.0110 Trinidad Africans 0.0100 African slave trade Tunisia 0.0100 USA African America 0.0100 African slave trade Bulgaria 0.0090 Cabo Verde 0.0080 Peru Arequipa 0.0070 African slave trade Turkey class I 0.0070 Brazil Belo Horizonte 0.0050 African Slave trade Equit. Guinea Bubi 0.0050 Brazil Pernambuco St 0.0050 African Slave contribution. Guatemala Mayans 0.0040 Slaves migrated from carribeans to Guatemalas east coast Gaza Palestinians 0.0030 Gaza Palestinians show genetic similarities to Sudanese and Egyptians. Uganda Kampala 0.0030 Interafrican gene flow Paris France 0.0020 Immigrant population Spain Majorca 0.0010 Israeli Jews 0.0006 Ethiopian Jews Note A*8001 is the only known variant of A*80 These frequencies are available to any fool who can punch in a web address www.allelefrequencies.net. Kenya Luo 0.1440 Colombia African Black 0.1160 South Africian Natal Zulu 0.0650 Uganda Kampala 0.0550 USA African American Beth 0.0500 Cabo Verde 0.0470 Iran Baloch 0.0450 Trinidad Africans 0.0400 Cuban Mulatto 0.0360 Mali Bandiagara 0.0360 Brazil Sao Paulo 0.0250 Zambia Lusaka 0.0230 Rimalbi 0.0218 Serrere Senegal 0.0213 Brazil Pernambuco State 0.0200 Kenya Nandi 0.0170 United Arab Emirates 0.0151 Morocco Nador Metalsa 0.0140 Thailand Northeast 0.0120 Venezuela Colonia Tovar 0.0120 Egypt /Sudan 0.0115 Brazil Belo Horizonte 0.0110 Turkey Istambul Area. 0.0110 Trinidad South Asians 0.0100 Paris France 0.0090 East Black Sea Anatolia 0.0085 Cuban White 0.0070 Madeira (Mid Atlantic) 0.0070 Jordon 0.0069 Saudi Arabian 0.0065 Argentina Toba Rosario 0.0060 Oman 0.0040 USA Hispanic 0.0040 Argentina Buenos Aires 0.0030 China Harbin Man 0.0030 Hong Kong Chinese 0.0030 Israel Gaza Palestinians 0.0030 Singapore Chinese 0.0030 Palestine 0.0030 Greece pop3 0.0020 Greece North 0.0020 Australia West 0.0010 Israeli Jews 0.0010 Italy 0.0002 A*66 Kenya Luo 0.0770 Colombia African Black 0.0720 Kenya Nandi 0.0550 India West Bhils 0.0400 USA African American Beth 0.0350 South Africian Natal Zulu 0.0350 Cuban White 0.0290 Uganda Kampala 0.0280 India Mumbai Marathas 0.0250 Czech Republic 0.0240 Cuban Mulatto 0.0230 Morocco Nador Metalsa 0.0210 Portugal Centre 0.0200 India West Coast Parsis 0.0200 Brazil Pernambuco State 0.0150 Israeli Jews 0.0130 Zambia Lusaka 0.0120 Azores 0.0120 Madeira 0.0110 Italy Bergamo 0.0110 Trinidad Africans 0.0100 Portugal South 0.0100 USA San Antonio Caucasians 0.0090 Israel Gaza Palestinians 0.0090 Oman 0.0080 China Linqu Shandong 0.0070 Spain Basque Arratia 0.0070 Peru Arequipa 0.0070 Greece North 0.0070 Venezuela Colonia Tovar 0.0060 USA Caucasians pop3 0.0060 Pakistan Brahui 0.0060 Morocco 0.0060 Iran Baloch 0.0060 Algeria1 0.0050 Tunisia 0.0050 Taiwan Aborigines 0.0050 Mongolia Khalkha 0.0050 Mexico Guadalajara Mest 0.0050 Italy Rome 0.0050 Brazil Belo Horizonte 0.0050 Belguim 0.0050 USA Hispanic 0.0040 France South East 0.0040 Argentina La Plata City 0.0040 USA North American Natives 0.0030 Croatia 0.0030 Wales 0.0023 Greece pop3 0.0020 USA Asian 0.0020 Macedonia pop 4 0.0020 Australia West 0.0020 Sweden Uppsala County 0.0015 Romanian 0.0010 Italy 0.0010 Ireland Northern 0.0010 Hong Kong Chinese 0.0010 And many more. A loci, B loci . . . . . >> http://www.allelefrequencies.net/searchAllelePart3- >> 1.asp?Population=Greece%20pop3 [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > lineage in the indigenous populations of Europe since the first > time they set foot there. Live with it. OH goodness, you've just solved the US racial problem, all blacks in the US are actually white, by HLA their gene frequencies are most similar to north africans, therefore they are white. > 100,000 years ago every modern European ancestor was in Africa. > There was no biological distinction between Greeks, Germans, > Arabs or even Native American Indians because they were all of > one linage, M168 P9. 40,000 years ago, 100,000 to 130,000 years ago a different lineage left africa, subsequent migrations from africa, probably 2 displaced the Y chromosome globally, the Y migrated at the wave front of human migrations, mtDNA has a founder bias. This has been shown repeatedly in small population studies. The oldest AMH remains in eurasia are from LiuJiang and date to 116 kya, artifacts in indonesia date to 80 kya, and the LM3 may be as old as 58 kya. If you spend to much time listening to operators like Spencer Wells and Kline you might be convinced humans left africa 40 kya, unfortunately you would be entirely wrong. That is the error of using the Y chromosome, it has an effective ploidy in the population of about 0.3 through the pliestocence and most of the holocene. The HLA have effective ploidies in excess of 2, many studies point to heterozygous selection. IOW the equity of representation of the Y chromosome is about 1/6th to 1/8th that of the HLA. > If you are finding older African lineages not descended from > M169 in Greeks but not in other Europeans then your research is > WRONG ! Coming from a person who has a childs understanding of molecular genetics, I think not. > Or is the African linage you are finding in Greeks the M173 sub > lineage that evolved in Asia and then migrated back to Africa to > northern Camaroon. A*80 was restricted to SSA until recently. A*74 was restricted to SSA until recently. A*66 more or less was restricted until recently. A*30 probably spread in the last 40 ky. > If that is so then these Africans are > Caucasians since all decedents of M173 are Caucasians and they > didn't come to Greece and Bulgaria from Africa but came to > Greece and Bulgaria from Asia on their way to Africa. What you > research might actual be indicating is that Greeks colonised > Africa which they in fact did for over 3500 years. > The only papers worth dealing with are papers concerning haploid > male genetics and they totally refute your false claims which no > scientist takes seriously. That would be because your a dic-head? >>> Sample sizes in europe currently is about 100,000 total >>> individuals in the HLA database and as part of studies. Typical [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The macedonian paper provides a foundation for comparison with the > greek papers results. OK. And your results mean what. They mean BUGGER ALL because the A* alleles in Aegean Greeks, Macedonian Greeks and Bulgarians are of the same frequency and the same order as those of other Europeans. Your results show A* alleles in such low proportions and do not even specify a sampling margin of error when extrapolating the statistics to the general population that they are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS scientifically. We don't know where any of the subjects came from and if their grandparents were of African descent. They could have been Greek refugees from Alexandria who settled in the Aegean or Macedonia or Greeks whose recent ancestors married black Africans or black African immigrants themselves. If you add the frequencies together then at most you only get 16-25% in Europe. Since the sample is so low the margin of error is probably between +/-16-25% which means the allele frequencies are nothing more than random noise that you can't draw any conclusions from at all except possibly one, that they represent the random scatter of the 10% of Europeans who are Africans that migrated to Europe in the past 100 or 200 years. Look at France for instance which has a population that is 10% Muslim, most of whom are Africans and then work out the mistakes in your methodology. >>> http://www.allelefrequencies.net/searchAllelePart3- >>> 1.asp?Population=Greece%20pop3 [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > the US are actually white, by HLA their gene frequencies are most > similar to north africans, therefore they are white. North Africans are white. Live with it and don't argue. >> 100,000 years ago every modern European ancestor was in Africa. >> There was no biological distinction between Greeks, Germans, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > That would be because your a dic-head? That would be because you are not a scientist. In sci.archaeology message news:udKdnScnAJgHnkreRVny1A@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : > If you add the frequencies together then at most you only get > 16-25% in Europe. Well what do you know, he figured something out. Isn't that precious. And that contribution is not only for europe, it extends all the way across to NE asia for many types, like A*31, A*33, A*68. The only difference between the southern mediterranean and points in the far east is, the mediterranean was closer by contact with the center of diversity and the far east had contact by numerous assymetric expansions from neoafrican derived peoples. That means that there has been flux from africa, and looking deeper at the HLA reveals several possible instances of flux outside of the founding event. > Since the sample is so low the margin of error is probably > between +/-16-25% which means the allele frequencies are nothing > more than random noise Except for the problem that we can track african haplotypes where african derived alleles like Cw16 in A29 Cw16 B44 can be tracted basically to the core of human diversity, with very high linkage disequilibrium it is certain that A*29 is recently derived along with B*4403. Interestingly another A19 haplotype A*33 B*4403 is found at very high levels in korea and scattered around in various populations of asia. The Pasiegos, who live in northern spain, show almost no association with iberian and have a genetic makeup as if they were derived from the first peoples who entered the danube river, Except they have very high levels of A*29 Cw16 B44. If you were to draw a density map of this haplotype you would find highest densities on the eastern coast of spain, western coast of europe including Ireland, and basically traveling up the english channel. How is it possible for an alleles and haplotypes in disequilibrium to have such a narrowly defined and non radial distribution? Think about it, you'll figure it out. When you start looking at the african nodal alleles in iberia you will quickly realize how A*29 Cw16 B*4403 made its move. > that you can't draw any conclusions from > at all except possibly one, that they represent the random > scatter of the 10% of Europeans who are Africans that migrated > to Europe in the past 100 or 200 years. Then there is the A30 Cw5 B18 from sardinia, its at about 20% of sardinians 0.4% of everyone else, both the A*30 and B*18 are at higher frequencies in africa particularly the sudan region, but oddly it is also found in the western black sea and along the western coast of India. A30 Cw5 B18 ranks with the highest frequency european haplotype in nodal intensity. > Look at France for > instance which has a population that is 10% Muslim, most of whom > are Africans and then work out the mistakes in your methodology. I have looked at france, paris has many more african types, but I have also looked at the Irish, Northern Irish, Wales, Cornish (who don't readily mix with anyone). The cornish have very high levels of A*29 Cw16 B*4403. In addition if one conpares france with germany those anti-impurities germans of the 19th are almost indistinquishable from the french. In fact a study of 13000 germans has revealed quite a number of african haplotypes derived from either the holocene or late paleolithic migrations. >> OH goodness, you've just solved the US racial problem, all >> blacks in the US are actually white, by HLA their gene >> frequencies are most similar to north africans, therefore they >> are white. > > North Africans are white. Live with it and don't argue. You're a racist fool, androgophilic fool, live with it and don't argue. >> That would be because your a dic-head? > > That would be because you are not a scientist. So far as yet I have managed to support my claims with frequencies of alleles and haplotypes, comparisons of over 300,000 indivdiuals world wide, and so far as yet you have only spewed out racist nonsense. >> If you add the frequencies together then at most you only get >> 16-25% in Europe. [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > You're a racist fool, androgophilic fool, live with it and don't > argue. Dear deary me. So anyone who utters the historical fact that all through recorded history and beyond the population of northern Africa was white is a racist. In fact some of these northern African are whiter that most English men and were known to be so since Roman times. >>> That would be because your a dic-head? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alleles and haplotypes, comparisons of over 300,000 indivdiuals world > wide, and so far as yet you have only spewed out racist nonsense. BULLSHIT. You are the one who is racist with all of this afrocentrist revisionist hogwash. You are trying to rewrite history by portraying the farmers who came to Europe via the middle east and across the Hellespont as black and that is a lie. YC DNA analysis shows that the two black African lineages that occur in Africa A-M91 and B-M60 are totally insignificant in the populations of Europe. In fact A-M91 is non-existent and B-M60 is only found in Sardinia in proportions of only 1% and that can be explained historically by an invasion by Africans that occured somewhere between 1500-1400 BC (Pausanius.10.17.1). It has already been explained to you by numerous posters that the indigenous people of northern Africa for the past 10,000 years where and still are white. Scientific papers have been shown to you showing how the migration of the E-M35 linage left northern Africa and entered Europe. The E-M35 linage is a white linage which dominates the whole of northern Africa and can be found in 1/4 of the population of Greece and Albania, nearly 1/4 of the population of southern Italy, 1/2 the population of Iran and most middle eastern countries and is seen in significant amounts in India and northern Europe. By virtue of is appearance in 40% of the population of Japan as D-M174 and the fact that Japanese have fairer and curlier hair and skin and more European looking facial shapes especially the men when compared to Chinese it can be concluded that the YAP insertion of which E-M35 is part of is a DNA linage which through climatic conditions in the coastal areas and open plains where it is found evolved to be white with gracile features best suited for swimming in the sea and a diet of fish. Why don't you face it. The majority of the people of Africa are decedents of an admixture of a DNA linage that evolved in the north of Africa whose population is white. Your A allele research is totally meaningless nonsense which has been superseded by more effective Y-Chromosome DNA analysis which pinpoints the origins and nature of these migrations precisely. In sci.archaeology message news:N6SdnUfPRq9-A0reRVny1A@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >> You're a racist fool, androgophilic fool, live with it and >> don't argue. > > Dear deary me. So anyone who utters the historical fact As you have been told its not fact but fiction. First point you contradicted I said eurasians settled north africa, indeed they settled recently tunisia, algeria, morroco, not to mention the Vandals the greeks who settled in Egypt. This is the latest addition in african genetics, but the genetics clearly shows that these recent additions added little to the south. The history also shows that the first egyptians are sudanese, and that these people and the berber/senegalese people represent two norther groups of africans. Of course subsaharans differ from this but gene flow between the two is evident. > that all > through recorded history and beyond the population of northern > Africa was white is a racist. What makes you a racist is the fact this statement is wrong. > In fact some of these northern > African are whiter that most English men and were known to be so > since Roman times. ROFLMAO. >> So far as yet I have managed to support my claims with >> frequencies of alleles and haplotypes, comparisons of over [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You are the one who is racist with all of this afrocentrist > revisionist hogwash. Cry baby, cry. You don't have anything to back up your racist drivel with. > You are trying to rewrite history by portraying the farmers who > came to Europe via the middle east and across the Hellespont as > black and that is a lie. Excuse me, I have said nothing about neolithic farmers. > YC DNA analysis shows that the two > black African lineages that occur in Africa A-M91 and B-M60 are > totally insignificant in the populations of Europe. You know I can show that huns had no significant impact on europe, except the history shows they were there. Y chromosome is one of the weakest tools for tracking all but the most recent migrations. Like I said all human Y chromosomes come from a single place in africa 40 kya. Except there was >80ky of migration in eurasia before the Y chromosome arrived. This is why Y chromosomal studies _MUST_ be tempered with other important studies. > In fact > A-M91 is non-existent and B-M60 is only found in Sardinia in > proportions of only 1% and that can be explained historically by > an invasion by Africans that occured somewhere between 1500-1400 > BC (Pausanius.10.17.1). That should tell you something about your Y studies becuase >30% of sardinian HLA show recent african origin. So the reason for this decline in sardinia is likely do to the sweeping of Y by recent migrants from the east. This is generally true, the last invasion is overrepresented in Y, the founders are overrepresented in frequency by mtDNA. This is why both these haploid types are dangerous to use and base firm conclusions upon. If a region is settled by more than two peoples, the Y and mtDNA studies are practically nonsense. The study of the Moari had Y chromosome from PNGers and mtDNA from tw aboriginals. HLA reconciled both, that was a people who were composed by two original peoples. If a third intermediate group was involved neither mtDNA or Y would reconcile with the HLA. > It has already been explained to you by numerous posters that > the indigenous people of northern Africa for the past 10,000 > years where and still are white. No sorry, everyone disagrees with you. Only you are proporting they are white, everyone else sees them as intermediate between equitorial blacks and norther mediterraneans. You are alone, no one is as foolish as you. > Scientific papers have been > shown to you showing how the migration of the E-M35 linage left > northern Africa and entered Europe. Rest of nonsense cut. Time I put you to bed my little racist <plonk> >>> You're a racist fool, androgophilic fool, live with it and >>> don't argue. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > What makes you a racist is the fact this statement is wrong. Exempt it isn't wrong and the fact that you claim that it is despite al the historical evidence makes you a revisionist bigot. >> In fact some of these northern >> African are whiter that most English men and were known to be so >> since Roman times. > > ROFLMAO. This is historical FACT. Live with it. Look at the Egyptian murals which show Libyans as almost pure white whereas Egyptians are like tanned models and going from olives skinned towards reddish brown and easily distinguishable from the pure black Nubians. >>> So far as yet I have managed to support my claims with >>> frequencies of alleles and haplotypes, comparisons of over [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cry baby, cry. You don't have anything to back up your racist drivel > with. I have all the historical and archaeological and YC DNA evidence on my side. >> You are trying to rewrite history by portraying the farmers who >> came to Europe via the middle east and across the Hellespont as [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > chromosome arrived. This is why Y chromosomal studies _MUST_ be > tempered with other important studies. This proves you are talking utter bollocks and know nothing aobut modenr YC DNA research. Until recently it was believed that femal mtDNA NOT male YC DNA went back only about 60,000 years but this has now been proven to be false for the past two years. Modern research shows that the age of male YC DNA is now double what it was at 160,000 years and the age of female mtDNA is that age as well. This corresponds with archaeological findings such as those of Poulianos in the Macedonian caves and of other scientists in Iberia which date the migration of modern humans out of Africa to that time >> In fact >> A-M91 is non-existent and B-M60 is only found in Sardinia in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and base firm conclusions upon. If a region is settled by more than > two peoples, the Y and mtDNA studies are practically nonsense. You are talking more BULLSHIT. Research shows that the most common Sardinian DNA linage is M26 and this linage evolved in isolation in Sardinia 6 or 7000 years ago. The closest linage to this is M170 which is the most common linage found in Germanic peoples. The other prominent Sardinian linage are M201 which is a linage from the Caucuses at 15% and M35 which is a white African linage at 10%. The only black African linage present is M13 at 1% which shows that the Africans who recently (1450 BC) invaded Sardinia were predominantly white northern Africans. > The study of the Moari had Y chromosome from PNGers and mtDNA from tw > aboriginals. HLA reconciled both, that was a people who were composed > by two original peoples. If a third intermediate group was involved > neither mtDNA or Y would reconcile with the HLA. More nonsense. (from AHG_2001_v65_p43 Underhill et al.) RPS4Y/M216 lineages are found in Asia, Australo-Melanesia and North America (Bergen et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 1999). We suggest that a M168 African population dispersed from the Horn of Africa via a coastal or interior route (50±45 K years ago; Walter et al. 2000) towards southern Asia, where the RPS4Y}M216 mutations probably originated (Fig. 3c). Descendants of this dispersal reached southeast Asia and were also the ®rst to colonize the Sahul landmass ± New Guinea and Australia. The latter are characterized by the lineages M38}M208 (ht48) and M210 (ht49). One RSP4Y}M216 lineage acquired the M217 mutation, which spread through central and eastern Asia, also reaching Japan (where individuals with RPS4Y} M216}M8}M105}M131 are much less frequent than RPS4Y}M216}M217 lineages), and later North America. Today, with the exception of Australia, and to a lesser extent New Guinea, the RPS4Y}M216 lineages have a relic distribution. Signi®cant similarities between Group V lineages in Australia and New Guinea and chromosome 21 MX1 haplotype 2 have been observed (Jin et al. 1999). >> It has already been explained to you by numerous posters that >> the indigenous people of northern Africa for the past 10,000 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > blacks and norther mediterraneans. You are alone, no one is as > foolish as you. You have only to look at this thread to see that all of the other contributes except for you are saying that northern Africans were and still are white. M35 is a white DNA linage. If you don't like the term white then try olive skinned since this is the main factor which distinguishes Mediterranean people and Northern Africans from other whites. >> Scientific papers have been >> shown to you showing how the migration of the E-M35 linage left >> northern Africa and entered Europe. > > Rest of nonsense cut. Time I put you to bed my little racist > <plonk> You are the racist not me. In sci.archaeology message news:Uoidnd6rofsae0reRVnyuA@pipex.net by "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> . . . : >> Rest of nonsense cut. Time I put you to bed my little racist >> <plonk> > > You are the racist not me. Agamemnon, you already lost the battle, go home to your wife, she's waiting for you. >>> Rest of nonsense cut. Time I put you to bed my little racist >>> <plonk> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Agamemnon, you already lost the battle, go home to your wife, she's > waiting for you. You are talking out of your rectum. > > If you add the frequencies together then at most you only get > > 16-25% in Europe. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > at the HLA reveals several possible instances of flux outside of the > founding event. As Deitiker is once again talking about antigens (HLA), it is worth noting the meaning of the word to counter his nonsensical flim-flam: antigen - noun a toxin or other foreign substance which induces an immune response in the body, especially the production of antibodies. -- OED So from that we see Dopey Deitiker has the illusion that disease procreates the people! After all that is the ONLY way he could justify his nonsensical claims of tracing a people via antigens! Someone should tell him about the birds and the bees..... Further more, HLA's are only available form soft tissue samples - something only obtainable from recently dead or living people. It CANNOT be obtained from an old skeleton or bone, unlike mtDNA. [..] SignatureSIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Please IGNORE the insanity posted by Dopey Deitiker - the fruitcake believes immunology can be related to or proves people movement -it can't. He hasn't got a bloody CLUE. You will only be mislead by his drivel. > >> The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of > >> tropical African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > As a result your original claims, as show by the recent molecular > genetic literature are Bullshit. SignatureSIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- <snip> You should be careful about what you do, Seppo. http://tinylink.com/?ckcaSdF5HC > <snip> > You should be careful about what you do, Seppo. > > http://tinylink.com/?ckcaSdF5HC Well now, you would know ALL about that, wouldn't you, being the w.nker you are! SignatureSIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of tropical > > African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in other parts of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > northern Africa who were white and coastal dwellers sailed to the Aegean. > And everyone in Europe came from Africa so what is your point ? No, tropical Africa means Africa with the tropics (of Cancer and Capricorn). Also the people of Northern Africa are not accurately described as "white." Before 2,000 BCE, the predominant craniofacial type of North Africa was definitely non-Caucasian. > > Regards, > > Paul Kekai Manansala > > http://sambali.blogspot.com/ >> > The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of tropical >> > African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in other parts of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "white." Before 2,000 BCE, the predominant craniofacial type of North > Africa was definitely non-Caucasian. For the past 12,000 years at least the dominant DNA lineage in northern Africa has been E-M35 and that is a lineage which is descended from M168 from which all Asians, Europeans and Native Americans are descended from therefore this lineage should have European features and cranial type. The only DNA lineages whose descendents never migrated out of Africa are A-M91 and B-M60. These two haplogroups A and B are minority lineages in Africa and it is these lineages which are most likely responsible for non-Caucasian cranial types. These linages are only dominant in south central equatorial Africa, southern Africa and Sudan and Ethiopia. You cannot use genetics to determine craniofacial type. Besides there's plenty of YAP+ haplotypes and L mtDNA haplogroup in N. Africa, not to mention numerous related autosomal markers. The craniofacial evidence of the Mechta-Afalou types from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic definitely are not Caucasian types regardless of their genotype (this has not been determined though). Also, N. Africans today are also not "white." There are many that are phenotypically black. Others are more "mixed" than anything else like Gaddafi, Nasser or Sadat. Only specific groups like the Kayble have strong "European" features including occassional blond/red hair and blue eyes. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala http://sambali.blogspot.com/ >>>The people of the ancient Aegean showed plenty of evidence of tropical >>>African admixture, so it would not be a surprise in other parts of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>>Paul Kekai Manansala >>>http://sambali.blogspot.com/ As "Caucasian" is a made up category, this proves nothing whatever. SignatureYou can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 > Look at this http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tarlioness.html > > The man depicted in the fresco in the second photo looks like a black > african. What do you people make of this? A. There would be nothing shocking if an African showed up. B. That is the way they painted the guys. |
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