Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
General TopicsAncient HistoryMedieval PeriodBritish HistoryWhat IfArchaeology
War History
War HistoryWorld War IIUS Civil War
HistoryKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

History Forum / General / Ancient History / August 2007



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Rewards not included -- "Not invented here," Constantine

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Matt Giwer - 04 Aug 2007 02:24 GMT
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/NewTestament.html

    This appears to be a summary what mountain man is talking about.

    By the end of the article you have read enough to conclude no one knows what
the religion of Nicea was like. It also reasonably spreads the forgeries and
elaborations over centuries often citing organizations explicitly created to
make changes. Note in particular this does not require any special genius by
Constantine or Eusebius. It shows he council participants having done most of
the work in narrowing down the gods and other variables.

=====

The Forged Origins of The New Testament

In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and
old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.
  __________________________________________________________________

Extracted from Nexus Magazine, [14]Volume 14, Number 4 (June - July 2007)

PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia. [15]editor@nexusmagazine.com

Telephone: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381

From our web page at: [16]www.nexusmagazine.com

by Tony Bushby © March 2007

Correspondence:
c/- NEXUS Magazine
PO Box 30, Mapleton, Qld 4560, Australia
Fax: +61 (0)7 5493 1900
  __________________________________________________________________

What the Church doesn't want you to know

It has often been emphasised that Christianity is unlike any other religion,
for it stands or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred
during a short period of time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are
presented in the New Testament, and as new evidence is revealed it will
become clear that they do not represent historical realities. The Church
agrees, saying: "Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of
Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament
Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for
granted." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For
example, when discussing the origin of those writings, "the most
distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled" (Catholic
Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do not go back to the first
century of the Christian era" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi,
p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that
the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following
the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church
further admits that "the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New
Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth
century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is some 350
years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands
of Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of
the biggest black holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there
were no New Testaments until the fourth century: they were not written until
then, and here we find evidence of the greatest misrepresentation of all
time.

It was British-born Flavius Constantinus (Constantine, originally Custennyn
or Custennin) (272-337) who authorised the compilation of the writings now
called the New Testament. After the death of his father in 306, Constantine
became King of Britain, Gaul and Spain, and then, after a series of
victorious battles, Emperor of the Roman Empire. Christian historians give
little or no hint of the turmoil of the times and suspend Constantine in the
air, free of all human events happening around him. In truth, one of
Constantine's main problems was the uncontrollable disorder amongst
presbyters and their belief in numerous gods.

The majority of modern-day Christian writers suppress the truth about the
development of their religion and conceal Constantine's efforts to curb the
disreputable character of the presbyters who are now called "Church Fathers"
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1). They were
"maddened", he said (Life of Constantine, attributed to Eusebius Pamphilius
of Caesarea, c. 335, vol. iii, p. 171; The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,
cited as N&PNF, attributed to St Ambrose, Rev. Prof. Roberts, DD, and
Principal James Donaldson, LLD, editors, 1891, vol. iv, p. 467). The
"peculiar type of oratory" expounded by them was a challenge to a settled
religious order (The Dictionary of Classical Mythology, Religion, Literature
and Art, Oskar Seyffert, Gramercy, New York, 1995, pp. 544-5). Ancient
records reveal the true nature of the presbyters, and the low regard in
which they were held has been subtly suppressed by modern Church historians.
In reality, they were: "...the most rustic fellows, teaching strange
paradoxes. They openly declared that none but the ignorant was fit to hear
their discourses ... they never appeared in the circles of the wiser and
better sort, but always took care to intrude themselves among the ignorant
and uncultured, rambling around to play tricks at fairs and markets ... they
lard their lean books with the fat of old fables ... and still the less do
they understand ... and they write nonsense on vellum ... and still be
doing, never done." (Contra Celsum ["Against Celsus"], Origen of Alexandria,
c. 251, Bk I, p. lxvii, Bk III, p. xliv, passim)

Clusters of presbyters had developed "many gods and many lords" (1 Cor. 8:5)
and numerous religious sects existed, each with differing doctrines (Gal.
1:6). Presbyterial groups clashed over attributes of their various gods and
"altar was set against altar" in competing for an audience (Optatus of
Milevis, 1:15, 19, early fourth century). From Constantine's point of view,
there were several factions that needed satisfying, and he set out to
develop an all-embracing religion during a period of irreverent confusion.
In an age of crass ignorance, with nine-tenths of the peoples of Europe
illiterate, stabilising religious splinter groups was only one of
Constantine's problems. The smooth generalisation, which so many historians
are content to repeat, that Constantine "embraced the Christian religion"
and subsequently granted "official toleration", is "contrary to historical
fact" and should be erased from our literature forever (Catholic
Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. iii, p. 299, passim). Simply put, there was no
Christian religion at Constantine's time, and the Church acknowledges that
the tale of his "conversion" and "baptism" are "entirely legendary"
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1).

Constantine "never acquired a solid theological knowledge" and "depended
heavily on his advisers in religious questions" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New
Edition, vol. xii, p. 576, passim). According to Eusebeius (260-339),
Constantine noted that among the presbyterian factions "strife had grown so
serious, vigorous action was necessary to establish a more religious state",
but he could not bring about a settlement between rival god factions (Life
of Constantine, op. cit., pp. 26-8). His advisers warned him that the
presbyters' religions were "destitute of foundation" and needed official
stabilisation (ibid.).

Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity
to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to
protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish
religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several
bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed
and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree
commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on a.ses, mules
and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the
Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with
them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for
protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon
arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council
of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred
and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together
with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op.
cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518).

The First Council of Nicaea and the "missing records" Thus, the first
ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the
Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of
early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual
climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity
was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult
to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine
had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two
thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the
other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to
convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325
(Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a
hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris,
1686, vol. i, p. 598). In an account of the proceedings of the conclave of
presbyters gathered at Nicaea, Sabinius, Bishop of Hereclea, who was in
attendance, said, "Excepting Constantine himself and Eusebius Pamphilius,
they were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing"
(Secrets of the Christian Fathers, Bishop J. W. Sergerus, 1685, 1897
reprint).

This is another luminous confession of the ignorance and uncritical
credulity of early churchmen. Dr Richard Watson (1737-1816), a disillusioned
Christian historian and one-time Bishop of Llandaff in Wales (1782),
referred to them as "a set of gibbering idiots" (An Apology for
Christianity, 1776, 1796 reprint; also, Theological Tracts, Dr Richard
Watson, "On Councils" entry, vol. 2, London, 1786, revised reprint 1791).
From his extensive research into Church councils, Dr Watson concluded that
"the clergy at the Council of Nicaea were all under the power of the devil,
and the convention was composed of the lowest rabble and patronised the
vilest abominations" (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). It was that
infantile body of men who were responsible for the commencement of a new
religion and the theological creation of Jesus Christ.

The Church admits that vital elements of the proceedings at Nicaea are
"strangely absent from the canons" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol.
iii, p. 160). We shall see shortly what happened to them. However, according
to records that endured, Eusebius "occupied the first seat on the right of
the emperor and delivered the inaugural address on the emperor's behalf"
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, pp. 619-620). There were no
British presbyters at the council but many Greek delegates. "Seventy Eastern
bishops" represented Asiatic factions, and small numbers came from other
areas (Ecclesiastical History, ibid.). Caecilian of Carthage travelled from
Africa, Paphnutius of Thebes from Egypt, Nicasius of Die (Dijon) from Gaul,
and Donnus of Stridon made the journey from Pannonia.

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a
total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists"
gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed
only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge
assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and
Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety
of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal,
Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo,
Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus,
Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens,
Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii,
paragraph 36).

Up until the First Council of Nicaea, the Roman aristocracy primarily
worshipped two Greek gods-Apollo and Zeus-but the great bulk of common
people idolised either Julius Caesar or Mithras (the Romanised version of
the Persian deity Mithra). Caesar was deified by the Roman Senate after his
death (15 March 44 BC) and subsequently venerated as "the Divine Julius".
The word "Saviour" was affixed to his name, its literal meaning being "one
who sows the seed", i.e., he was a phallic god. Julius Caesar was hailed as
"God made manifest and universal Saviour of human life", and his successor
Augustus was called the "ancestral God and Saviour of the whole human race"
(Man and his Gods, Homer Smith, Little, Brown & Co., Boston, 1952). Emperor
Nero (54-68), whose original name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus (37-68),
was immortalised on his coins as the "Saviour of mankind" (ibid.). The
Divine Julius as Roman Saviour and "Father of the Empire" was considered
"God" among the Roman rabble for more than 300 years. He was the deity in
some Western presbyters' texts, but was not recognised in Eastern or
Oriental writings.

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his
empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters
were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued
among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular
writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity.
Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates,
and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had
been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine
that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's
Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter
xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).

At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover
that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a
shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus
(Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling
spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To
involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god,
Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit
for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new
Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161
votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding
heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman
apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by
democratic consent.

A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta
Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification
effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one
individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated
doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J"
in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved
into "Jesus Christ".

How the Gospels were created

Constantine then instructed Eusebius to organise the compilation of a
uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the
religious texts submitted at the council. His instructions were: "Search ye
these books, and whatever is good in them, that retain; but whatsoever is
evil, that cast away. What is good in one book, unite ye with that which is
good in another book. And whatsoever is thus brought together shall be
called The Book of Books. And it shall be the doctrine of my people, which I
will recommend unto all nations, that there shall be no more war for
religions' sake." (God's Book of Eskra, op. cit., chapter xlviii, paragraph
31)

"Make them to astonish" said Constantine, and "the books were written
accordingly" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, pp. 36-39). Eusebius amalgamated
the "legendary tales of all the religious doctrines of the world together as
one", using the standard god-myths from the presbyters' manuscripts as his
exemplars. Merging the supernatural "god" stories of Mithra and Krishna with
British Culdean beliefs effectively joined the orations of Eastern and
Western presbyters together "to form a new universal belief" (ibid.).
Constantine believed that the amalgamated collection of myths would unite
variant and opposing religious factions under one representative story.
Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce "fifty sumptuous copies ... to
be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable
form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art" (ibid.).
"These orders," said Eusebius, "were followed by the immediate execution of
the work itself ... we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately
bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms" (Life of Constantine, vol.
iv, p. 36). They were the "New Testimonies", and this is the first mention
(c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record.

With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New
Testimonies would thereafter be called the "word of the Roman Saviour God"
(Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters
sermonising in the Roman Empire. He then ordered earlier presbyterial
manuscripts and the records of the council "burnt" and declared that "any
man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders"
(beheaded) (ibid.). As the record shows, presbyterial writings previous to
the Council of Nicaea no longer exist, except for some fragments that have
survived.

Some council records also survived, and they provide alarming ramifications
for the Church.Some old documents say that the First Council of Nicaea ended
in mid-November 326, while others say the struggle to establish a god was so
fierce that it extended "for four years and seven months" from its beginning
in June 325 (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, op. cit.). Regardless of when
it ended, the savagery and violence it encompassed were concealed under the
glossy title "Great and Holy Synod", assigned to the assembly by the Church
in the 18th century. Earlier Churchmen, however, expressed a different
opinion.

The Second Council of Nicaea in 786-87 denounced the First Council of Nicaea
as "a synod of fools and madmen" and sought to annul "decisions passed by
men with troubled brains" (History of the Christian Church, H. H. Milman,
DD, 1871). If one chooses to read the records of the Second Nicaean Council
and notes references to "affrighted bishops" and the "soldiery" needed to
"quell proceedings", the "fools and madmen" declaration is surely an example
of the pot calling the kettle black. Constantine died in 337 and his
outgrowth of many now-called pagan beliefs into a new religious system
brought many converts. Later Church writers made him "the great champion of
Christianity" which he gave "legal status as the religion of the Roman
Empire" (Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire, Matthew Bunson, Facts on File,
New York, 1994, p. 86). Historical records reveal this to be incorrect, for
it was "self-interest" that led him to create Christianity (A Smaller
Classical Dictionary, J. M. Dent, London, 1910, p. 161). Yet it wasn't
called "Christianity" until the 15th century (How The Great Pan Died,
Professor Edmond S. Bordeaux [Vatican archivist], Mille Meditations, USA,
MCMLXVIII, pp. 45-7).

Over the ensuing centuries, Constantine's New Testimonies were expanded
upon, "interpolations" were added and other writings included (Catholic
Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 135-137; also, Pecci ed., vol. ii,
pp. 121-122). For example, in 397 John "golden-mouthed" Chrysostom
restructured the writings of Apollonius of Tyana, a first-century wandering
sage, and made them part of the New Testimonies (Secrets of the Christian
Fathers, op. cit.). The Latinised name for Apollonius is Paulus (A
Latin-English Dictionary, J. T. White and J. E. Riddle, Ginn & Heath,
Boston, 1880), and the Church today calls those writings the Epistles of
Paul. Apollonius's personal attendant, Damis, an Assyrian scribe, is Demis
in the New Testament (2 Tim. 4:10).

The Church hierarchy knows the truth about the origin of its Epistles, for
Cardinal Bembo (d. 1547), secretary to Pope Leo X (d. 1521), advised his
associate, Cardinal Sadoleto, to disregard them, saying "put away these
trifles, for such absurdities do not become a man of dignity; they were
introduced on the scene later by a sly voice from heaven" (Cardinal Bembo:
His Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, A. L. Collins, London, 1842
reprint).

The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying, "Even the
genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal
views of their authors" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p.
645). Likewise, St Jerome (d. 420) declared that the Acts of the Apostles,
the fifth book of the New Testament, was also "falsely written" ("The
Letters of Jerome", Library of the Fathers, Oxford Movement, 1833-45, vol.
v, p. 445).

The shock discovery of an ancient Bible

The New Testament subsequently evolved into a fulsome piece of priesthood
propaganda, and the Church claimed it recorded the intervention of a divine
Jesus Christ into Earthly affairs. However, a spectacular discovery in a
remote Egyptian monastery revealed to the world the extent of later
falsifications of the Christian texts, themselves only an "assemblage of
legendary tales" (Encyclopédie, Diderot, 1759). On 4 February 1859, 346
leaves of an ancient codex were discovered in the furnace room at St
Catherine's monastery at Mt Sinai, and its contents sent shockwaves through
the Christian world. Along with other old codices, it was scheduled to be
burned in the kilns to provide winter warmth for the inhabitants of the
monastery. Written in Greek on donkey skins, it carried both the Old and New
Testaments, and later in time archaeologists dated its composition to around
the year 380. It was discovered by Dr Constantin von Tischendorf
(1815-1874), a brilliant and pious German biblical scholar, and he called it
the Sinaiticus, the Sinai Bible. Tischendorf was a professor of theology who
devoted his entire life to the study of New Testament origins, and his
desire to read all the ancient Christian texts led him on the long,
camel-mounted journey to St Catherine's Monastery.

During his lifetime, Tischendorf had access to other ancient Bibles
unavailable to the public, such as the Alexandrian (or Alexandrinus) Bible,
believed to be the second oldest Bible in the world. It was so named because
in 1627 it was taken from Alexandria to Britain and gifted to King Charles I
(1600-49). Today it is displayed alongside the world's oldest known Bible,
the Sinaiticus, in the British Library in London. During his research,
Tischendorf had access to the Vaticanus, the Vatican Bible, believed to be
the third oldest in the world and dated to the mid-sixth century (The
Various Versions of the Bible, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1874,
available in the British Library). It was locked away in the Vatican's inner
library. Tischendorf asked if he could extract handwritten notes, but his
request was declined. However, when his guard took refreshment breaks,
Tischendorf wrote comparative narratives on the palm of his hand and
sometimes on his fingernails ("Are Our Gospels Genuine or Not?", Dr
Constantin von Tischendorf, lecture, 1869, available in the British
Library).

Today, there are several other Bibles written in various languages during
the fifth and sixth centuries, examples being the Syriacus, the
Cantabrigiensis (Bezae), the Sarravianus and the Marchalianus. A shudder of
apprehension echoed through Christendom in the last quarter of the 19th
century when English-language versions of the Sinai Bible were published.
Recorded within these pages is information that disputes Christianity's
claim of historicity. Christians were provided with irrefutable evidence of
wilful falsifications in all modern New Testaments. So different was the
Sinai Bible's New Testament from versions then being published that the
Church angrily tried to annul the dramatic new evidence that challenged its
very existence. In a series of articles published in the London Quarterly
Review in 1883, John W. Burgon, Dean of Chichester, used every rhetorical
device at his disposal to attack the Sinaiticus' earlier and opposing story
of Jesus Christ, saying that "...without a particle of hesitation, the
Sinaiticus is scandalously corrupt ... exhibiting the most shamefully
mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with; they have become, by
whatever process, the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated
readings, ancient blunders and intentional perversions of the truth which
are discoverable in any known copies of the word of God". Dean Burgon's
concerns mirror opposing aspects of Gospel stories then current, having by
now evolved to a new stage through centuries of tampering with the fabric of
an already unhistorical document.

The revelations of ultraviolet light testing

In 1933, the British Museum in London purchased the Sinai Bible from the
Soviet government for £100,000, of which £65,000 was gifted by public
subscription. Prior to the acquisition, this Bible was displayed in the
Imperial Library in St Petersburg, Russia, and "few scholars had set eyes on
it" (The Daily Telegraph and Morning Post, 11 January 1938, p. 3). When it
went on display in 1933 as "the oldest Bible in the world" (ibid.), it
became the centre of a pilgrimage unequalled in the history of the British
Museum.

Before I summarise its conflictions, it should be noted that this old codex
is by no means a reliable guide to New Testament study as it contains
superabundant errors and serious re-editing. These anomalies were exposed as
a result of the months of ultraviolet-light tests carried out at the British
Museum in the mid-1930s. The findings revealed replacements of numerous
passages by at least nine different editors. Photographs taken during
testing revealed that ink pigments had been retained deep in the pores of
the skin. The original words were readable under ultraviolet light. Anybody
wishing to read the results of the tests should refer to the book written by
the researchers who did the analysis: the Keepers of the Department of
Manuscripts at the British Museum (Scribes and Correctors of the Codex
Sinaiticus, H. J. M. Milne and T. C. Skeat, British Museum, London, 1938).

Forgery in the Gospels

When the New Testament in the Sinai Bible is compared with a modern-day New
Testament, a staggering 14,800 editorial alterations can be identified.
These amendments can be recognised by a simple comparative exercise that
anybody can and should do. Serious study of Christian origins must emanate
from the Sinai Bible's version of the New Testament, not modern editions.

Of importance is the fact that the Sinaiticus carries three Gospels since
rejected: the Shepherd of Hermas (written by two resurrected ghosts,
Charinus and Lenthius), the Missive of Barnabas and the Odes of Solomon.
Space excludes elaboration on these bizarre writings and also discussion on
dilemmas associated with translation variations.

Modern Bibles are five removes in translation from early editions, and
disputes rage between translators over variant interpretations of more than
5,000 ancient words. However, it is what is not written in that old Bible
that embarrasses the Church, and this article discusses only a few of those
omissions. One glaring example is subtly revealed in the Encyclopaedia
Biblica (Adam & Charles Black, London, 1899, vol. iii, p. 3344), where the
Church divulges its knowledge about exclusions in old Bibles, saying: "The
remark has long ago and often been made that, like Paul, even the earliest
Gospels knew nothing of the miraculous birth of our Saviour". That is
because there never was a virgin birth.

It is apparent that when Eusebius assembled scribes to write the New
Testimonies, he first produced a single document that provided an exemplar
or master version. Today it is called the Gospel of Mark, and the Church
admits that it was "the first Gospel written" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley
ed., vol. vi, p. 657), even though it appears second in the New Testament
today. The scribes of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were dependent upon
the Mark writing as the source and framework for the compilation of their
works. The Gospel of John is independent of those writings, and the
late-15th-century theory that it was written later to support the earlier
writings is the truth (The Crucifixion of Truth, Tony Bushby, Joshua Books,
2004, pp. 33-40).

Thus, the Gospel of Mark in the Sinai Bible carries the "first" story of
Jesus Christ in history, one completely different to what is in modern
Bibles. It starts with Jesus "at about the age of thirty" (Mark 1:9), and
doesn't know of Mary, a virgin birth or mass murders of baby boys by Herod.
Words describing Jesus Christ as "the son of God" do not appear in the
opening narrative as they do in today's editions (Mark 1:1), and the
modern-day family tree tracing a "messianic bloodline" back to King David is
non-existent in all ancient Bibles, as are the now-called "messianic
prophecies" (51 in total). The Sinai Bible carries a conflicting version of
events surrounding the "raising of Lazarus", and reveals an extraordinary
omission that later became the central doctrine of the Christian faith: the
resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ and his ascension into Heaven. No
supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any
ancient Gospels of Mark, but a description of over 500 words now appears in
modern Bibles (Mark 16:9-20).

Despite a multitude of long-drawn-out self-justifications by Church
apologists, there is no unanimity of Christian opinion regarding the
non-existence of "resurrection" appearances in ancient Gospel accounts of
the story. Not only are those narratives missing in the Sinai Bible, but
they are absent in the Alexandrian Bible, the Vatican Bible, the Bezae Bible
and an ancient Latin manuscript of Mark, code-named "K" by analysts. They
are also lacking in the oldest Armenian version of the New Testament, in
sixth-century manuscripts of the Ethiopic version and ninth-century
Anglo-Saxon Bibles. However, some 12th-century Gospels have the now-known
resurrection verses written within asterisksÑmarks used by scribes to
indicate spurious passages in a literary document.

The Church claims that "the resurrection is the fundamental argument for our
Christian belief" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xii, p. 792), yet
no supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any
of the earliest Gospels of Mark available. A resurrection and ascension of
Jesus Christ is the sine qua non ("without which, nothing") of Christianity
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xii, p. 792), confirmed by words
attributed to Paul: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain"
(1 Cor. 5:17).

The resurrection verses in today's Gospels of Mark are universally
acknowledged as forgeries and the Church agrees, saying "the conclusion of
Mark is admittedly not genuine ... almost the entire section is a later
compilation" (Encyclopaedia Biblica, vol. ii, p. 1880, vol. iii, pp. 1767,
1781; also, Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. iii, under the heading "The Evidence
of its Spuriousness"; Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, pp. 274-9
under heading "Canons"). Undaunted, however, the Church accepted the forgery
into its dogma and made it the basis of Christianity.

The trend of fictitious resurrection narratives continues. The final chapter
of the Gospel of John (21) is a sixth-century forgery, one entirely devoted
to describing Jesus' resurrection to his disciples. The Church admits: "The
sole conclusion that can be deduced from this is that the 21st chapter was
afterwards added and is therefore to be regarded as an appendix to the
Gospel" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. viii, pp. 441-442; New
Catholic Encyclopedia (NCE), "Gospel of John", p. 1080; also NCE, vol. xii,
p. 407).

"The Great Insertion" and "The Great Omission"

Modern-day versions of the Gospel of Luke have a staggering 10,000 more
words than the same Gospel in the Sinai Bible. Six of those words say of
Jesus "and was carried up into heaven", but this narrative does not appear
in any of the oldest Gospels of Luke available today ("Three Early Doctrinal
Modifications of the Text of the Gospels", F. C. Conybeare, The Hibbert
Journal, London, vol. 1, no. 1, Oct 1902, pp. 96-113). Ancient versions do
not verify modern-day accounts of an ascension of Jesus Christ, and this
falsification clearly indicates an intention to deceive.

Today, the Gospel of Luke is the longest of the canonical Gospels because it
now includes "The Great Insertion", an extraordinary 15th-century addition
totalling around 8,500 words (Luke 9:51-18:14). The insertion of these
forgeries into that Gospel bewilders modern Christian analysts, and of them
the Church said: "The character of these passages makes it dangerous to draw
inferences" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. ii, p. 407).

Just as remarkable, the oldest Gospels of Luke omit all verses from 6:45 to
8:26, known in priesthood circles as "The Great Omission", a total of 1,547
words. In today's versions, that hole has been "plugged up" with passages
plagiarised from other Gospels. Dr Tischendorf found that three paragraphs
in newer versions of the Gospel of Luke's version of the Last Supper
appeared in the 15th century, but the Church still passes its Gospels off as
the unadulterated "word of God" ("Are Our Gospels Genuine or Not?", op.
cit.)

The "Expurgatory Index"

As was the case with the New Testament, so also were damaging writings of
early "Church Fathers" modified in centuries of copying, and many of their
records were intentionally rewritten or suppressed.

Adopting the decrees of the Council of Trent (1545-63), the Church
subsequently extended the process of erasure and ordered the preparation of
a special list of specific information to be expunged from early Christian
writings (Delineation of Roman Catholicism, Rev. Charles Elliott, DD, G.
Lane & P. P. Sandford, New York, 1842, p. 89; also, The Vatican Censors,
Professor Peter Elmsley, Oxford, p. 327, pub. date n/a).

In 1562, the Vatican established a special censoring office called Index
Expurgatorius. Its purpose was to prohibit publication of "erroneous
passages of the early Church Fathers" that carried statements opposing
modern-day doctrine.

When Vatican archivists came across "genuine copies of the Fathers, they
corrected them according to the Expurgatory Index" (Index Expurgatorius
Vaticanus, R. Gibbings, ed., Dublin, 1837; The Literary Policy of the Church
of Rome, Joseph Mendham, J. Duncan, London, 1830, 2nd ed., 1840; The Vatican
Censors, op. cit., p. 328). This Church record provides researchers with
"grave doubts about the value of all patristic writings released to the
public" (The Propaganda Press of Rome, Sir James W. L. Claxton, Whitehaven
Books, London, 1942, p. 182). Important for our story is the fact that the
Encyclopaedia Biblica reveals that around 1,200 years of Christian history
are unknown: "Unfortunately, only few of the records [of the Church] prior
to the year 1198 have been released". It was not by chance that, in that
same year (1198), Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) suppressed all records of
earlier Church history by establishing the Secret Archives (Catholic
Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xv, p. 287). Some seven-and-a-half centuries
later, and after spending some years in those Archives, Professor Edmond S.
Bordeaux wrote How The Great Pan Died. In a chapter titled "The Whole of
Church History is Nothing but a Retroactive Fabrication", he said this (in
part):

"The Church ante-dated all her late works, some newly made, some revised and
some counterfeited, which contained the final expression of her history ...
her technique was to make it appear that much later works written by Church
writers were composed a long time earlier, so that they might become
evidence of the first, second or third centuries." (How The Great Pan Died,
op. cit., p. 46)

Supporting Professor Bordeaux's findings is the fact that, in 1587, Pope
Sixtus V (1585-90) established an official Vatican publishing division and
said in his own words, "Church history will be now be established ... we
shall seek to print our own account"Encyclopédie, Diderot, 1759). Vatican
records also reveal that Sixtus V spent 18 months of his life as pope
personally writing a new Bible and then introduced into Catholicism a "New
Learning" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, p. 442, vol. xv, p.
376). The evidence that the Church wrote its own history is found in
Diderot's Encyclopédie, and it reveals the reason why Pope Clement XIII
(1758-69) ordered all volumes to be destroyed immediately after publication
in 1759.

Gospel authors exposed as imposters There is something else involved in this
scenario and it is recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia. An appreciation of
the clerical mindset arises when the Church itself admits that it does not
know who wrote its Gospels and Epistles, confessing that all 27 New
Testament writings began life anonymously:

"It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to
the evangelists themselves ... they [the New Testament collection] are
supplied with titles which, however ancient, do not go back to the
respective authors of those writings." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed.,
vol. vi, pp. 655-6)

The Church maintains that "the titles of our Gospels were not intended to
indicate authorship", adding that "the headings ... were affixed to them"
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. i, p. 117, vol. vi, pp. 655, 656).
Therefore they are not Gospels written "according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or
John", as publicly stated. The full force of this confession reveals that
there are no genuine apostolic Gospels, and that the Church's shadowy
writings today embody the very ground and pillar of Christian foundations
and faith. The consequences are fatal to the pretence of Divine origin of
the entire New Testament and expose Christian texts as having no special
authority. For centuries, fabricated Gospels bore Church certification of
authenticity now confessed to be false, and this provides evidence that
Christian writings are wholly fallacious.

After years of dedicated New Testament research, Dr Tischendorf expressed
dismay at the differences between the oldest and newest Gospels, and had
trouble understanding...

"...how scribes could allow themselves to bring in here and there changes
which were not simply verbal ones, but such as materially affected the very
meaning and, what is worse still, did not shrink from cutting out a passage
or inserting one." (Alterations to the Sinai Bible, Dr Constantin von
Tischendorf, 1863, available in the British Library, London)

After years of validating the fabricated nature of the New Testament, a
disillusioned Dr Tischendorf confessed that modern-day editions have "been
altered in many places" and are "not to be accepted as true" (When Were Our
Gospels Written?, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1865, British Library,
London).

Just what is Christianity?

The important question then to ask is this: if the New Testament is not
historical, what is it?

Dr Tischendorf provided part of the answer when he said in his 15,000 pages
of critical notes on the Sinai Bible that "it seems that the personage of
Jesus Christ was made narrator for many religions". This explains how
narratives from the ancient Indian epic, the Mahabharata, appear verbatim in
the Gospels today (e.g., Matt. 1:25, 2:11, 8:1-4, 9:1-8, 9:18-26), and why
passages from the Phenomena of the Greek statesman Aratus of Sicyon (271-213
BC) are in the New Testament.

Extracts from the Hymn to Zeus, written by Greek philosopher Cleanthes (c.
331-232 BC), are also found in the Gospels, as are 207 words from the Thais
of Menander (c. 343-291), one of the "seven wise men" of Greece. Quotes from
the semi-legendary Greek poet Epimenides (7th or 6th century BC) are applied
to the lips of Jesus Christ, and seven passages from the curious Ode of
Jupiter (c. 150 BC; author unknown) are reprinted in the New Testament.

Tischendorf's conclusion also supports Professor Bordeaux's Vatican findings
that reveal the allegory of Jesus Christ derived from the fable of Mithra,
the divine son of God (Ahura Mazda) and messiah of the first kings of the
Persian Empire around 400 BC. His birth in a grotto was attended by magi who
followed a star from the East. They brought "gifts of gold, frankincense and
myrrh" (as in Matt. 2:11) and the newborn baby was adored by shepherds. He
came into the world wearing the Mithraic cap, which popes imitated in
various designs until well into the 15th century.

Mithra, one of a trinity, stood on a rock, the emblem of the foundation of
his religion, and was anointed with honey. After a last supper with Helios
and 11 other companions, Mithra was crucified on a cross, bound in linen,
placed in a rock tomb and rose on the third day or around 25 March (the full
moon at the spring equinox, a time now called Easter after the Babylonian
goddess Ishtar). The fiery destruction of the universe was a major doctrine
of Mithraism-a time in which Mithra promised to return in person to Earth
and save deserving souls. Devotees of Mithra partook in a sacred communion
banquet of bread and wine, a ceremony that paralleled the Christian
Eucharist and preceded it by more than four centuries.

Christianity is an adaptation of Mithraism welded with the Druidic
principles of the Culdees, some Egyptian elements (the pre-Christian Book of
Revelation was originally called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis), Greek
philosophy and various aspects of Hinduism.

Why there are no records of Jesus Christ

It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical
writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well
into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the
spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life. This
confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831-1903) of Trinity College,
Cambridge:

"It is amazing that history has not embalmed for us even one certain or
definite saying or circumstance in the life of the Saviour of mankind ...
there is no statement in all history that says anyone saw Jesus or talked
with him. Nothing in history is more astonishing than the silence of
contemporary writers about events relayed in the four Gospels." (The Life of
Christ, Frederic W. Farrar, Cassell, London, 1874)

This situation arises from a conflict between history and New Testament
narratives. Dr Tischendorf made this comment: "We must frankly admit that we
have no source of information with respect to the life of Jesus Christ other
than ecclesiastic writings assembled during the fourth century." (Codex
Sinaiticus, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, British Library, London)

There is an explanation for those hundreds of years of silence: the
construct of Christianity did not begin until after the first quarter of the
fourth century, and that is why Pope Leo X (d. 1521) called Christ a "fable"
(Cardinal Bembo: His Letters..., op. cit.).

About the Author:

Tony Bushby, an Australian, became a businessman and entrepreneur early in
his adult life. He established a magazine-publishing business and spent 20
years researching, writing and publishing his own magazines, primarily for
the Australian and New Zealand markets.

With strong spiritual beliefs and an interest in metaphysical subjects, Tony
has developed long relationships with many associations and societies
throughout the world that have assisted his research by making their
archives available. He is the author of The Bible Fraud (2001; reviewed in
NEXUS 8/06 with extracts in NEXUS 9/01—03), The Secret in the Bible (2003;
reviewed in 11/02, with extract, "Ancient Cities under the Sands of Giza",
in 11/03) and The Crucifixion of Truth (2005; reviewed in 12/02) and The
Twin Deception (2007; reviewed 14/03). Copies of these books are available
from the NEXUS website and the Joshua Books website
[17]http://www.joshuabooks.com.

As Tony Bushby vigorously protects his privacy, any correspondence should be
sent to him care of NEXUS Magazine, PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560, Australia,
fax +61 (0) 7 5442 9381.

Signature

Reference to scholars is meaningless without further definition else you
have to consider the opinions of National Merit Scholars are authoritative.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3828
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8

Matt Giwer - 04 Aug 2007 04:18 GMT
    Newsgroups added

> http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/NewTestament.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 834 lines]
> Australia,
> fax +61 (0) 7 5442 9381.

Signature

The families of every Iraqi we have killed has an absolute right in law and
morality to kill Americans to balance the scales.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3840
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8

BernardZ - 04 Aug 2007 08:59 GMT
> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
> factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and
> old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.

We have parts of the Gospel of John much older then this!
mountain man - 04 Aug 2007 12:14 GMT
>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
>> factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new
>> and
>> old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.
>
> We have parts of the Gospel of John much older then this!

The dating methodology upon which you are reliant
for such a dating is called paleography, or in layman's
terms, handwriting analysis.   None of these papyrii
fragments have been carbon dated, and its too late
for them to be tested now, because they will be very
clearly contaminated with human study.

However I predict that if you were to go down to the
Oxyrhynchus Rubbish dump, where the non-christians
of Constantine's time left his propaganda, and find a
nice freshly excavated papyrii fragment of the Gospel
of Johnny Be Good and have it carbon dated, then
it will prove to be dated from the fourth century,
when it was lavishly published by bullneck.

Pete Brown
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_071.htm
BernardZ - 05 Aug 2007 05:59 GMT
> None of these papyrii
> fragments have been carbon dated, and its too late
> for them to be tested now, because they will be very
> clearly contaminated with human study.

Actually it has already been carbon dated!

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/auth_dating.html

The results allowed lab experts to confidently date the papyruses to
between A.D. 220 and 340.
mountain man - 09 Aug 2007 03:51 GMT
>> None of these papyrii
>> fragments have been carbon dated, and its too late
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The results allowed lab experts to confidently date the papyruses to
> between A.D. 220 and 340.

That's the gJudas .... 290 CE +/- 60 years.
We have also gThomas .... 350 CE.

These are papyrii and codexes not papyrii fragments.
These are the only 2 C14 citations on the NT texts.

Despite their abundance and their over-reached claims
none of the papyrii fragments have been carbon-dated.

Over.

Pete Brown
Matt Giwer - 09 Aug 2007 05:41 GMT
>> None of these papyrii
>> fragments have been carbon dated, and its too late
>> for them to be tested now, because they will be very
>> clearly contaminated with human study.

> Actually it has already been carbon dated!

> http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/auth_dating.html

> The results allowed lab experts to confidently date the papyruses to
> between A.D. 220 and 340.

    Actually if you read the details of the +/-60 years you find it only means
there is a 70% confidence that it is within that interval. Or one standard
deviation if you prefer that description. They are close enough to the same
thing in this case.

    As the 340 is close enough to Constantine that it cannot be excluded we would
have to have words which cannot be from anything but the gospel just to say it
is the gospel.

Signature

Hell freezing over would not convince the Warmin' Marvins of the world.
    The Iron Webmaster, 3837
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 book review http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/willing-executioners.phtml a7

mountain man - 09 Aug 2007 14:43 GMT
>>> None of these papyrii
>>> fragments have been carbon dated, and its too late
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> would have to have words which cannot be from anything but the gospel just
> to say it is the gospel.

Additionally, the dating refers to the cutting of the papyrus.
That stuff can be stored for a while in the right conditions.

Pete
Martin Edwards - 04 Aug 2007 14:36 GMT
>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
>> factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and
>> old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.
>
> We have parts of the Gospel of John much older then this!

About a century, the date of the earliest NT documents.

Signature

Corporate society looks after everything.  All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions.  -From “Rollerball”

Matt Giwer - 09 Aug 2007 05:37 GMT
>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
>> factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and
>> old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.

> We have parts of the Gospel of John much older then this!

    All claims of "parts of" have to be examined to find exactly what they are
talking about. Usually they are like the letter of Paul from the first century.
It is a fragment the size of a postage stamp and too sacred to be subjected to
dating. Having "parts of" sounds like undated postage stamps. What specifically
are you talking about? Got URLs?

    As for having the some of the same words many of the high points of the other
three are almost direct from other religions supporting the amalgamation
hypothesis.

Signature

In time of war both sides claim to be defending themselves to the public but
in retrospect we know both governments wanted the war but the people did
not.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4843
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 book review http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/willing-executioners.phtml a7

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] - 20 Aug 2007 08:50 GMT
Matt Giwer napisal(a):
> >> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
> >> factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>     All claims of "parts of" have to be examined to find exactly what they are
> talking about.

You obviously have no idea what he is talking about.  but anyone
mildly familiar with the subject would know exactly that to which he
is referring.

he is referring to two papyrri in particular, which happen to be the
most archaic extant copies or versions of any section of the NT.
Matt Giwer - 21 Aug 2007 04:04 GMT
> Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> he is referring to two papyrri in particular, which happen to be the
> most archaic extant copies or versions of any section of the NT.

    You did not present URLs either.

Signature

Every paid position as a university professor originated as a labor of love
without any form of financial reward.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3849
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 flying saucers http://www.giwersworld.org/flyingsa.html a2

mountain man - 22 Aug 2007 08:15 GMT
>> Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> You did not present URLs either.

Search GOOGLE for:

Beatty papyri: The major papyri in this collection are p45, p46, p47. The
first p45 is dated to 150-250 CE; and contains some (or all) of Mt 20, 21,
25, 26; Mr 4-9, 11-12; Lk 6-7, 9-14; Jn 10-11; Acts 4-17. The second p46 is
dated to 90-175 CE; contains some (or all) of Rom 5-6, 8-16; all of I & II
Cor, Gal, Eph., Philp., Col, I Thess 1,2,5; all of Hebrews. The last, p47,
dated to the third century, contains Revelation 9:10-17.2
The Bodmer papyri: The major papyri in this collection are p66, p72, p75.
p66: 150-200 CE, contains almost all of the Gospel of John
p72: 200's, containing all of I & II Peter, Jude
p75: 175-200 CE, contains most of Luke 3-18, 22-24; John 1-15.

The Rylands papyrus: Asserted to be the earliest surviving new testament
fragment of a papyrus codex containing John 18:31-33, and 37. It has been
dated from 130 CE.

The DATING PROCESS in respect of each and every one of the above is
PALEOGRAPHY.

That is another word for "handwriting analysis".

No (NT related) papyrii fragment has been radio-carbon dated and published.

FYI.

Pete Brown
Larry Swain - 23 Aug 2007 18:55 GMT
>>>Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> fragment of a papyrus codex containing John 18:31-33, and 37. It has been
> dated from 130 CE.

100-150.

> The DATING PROCESS in respect of each and every one of the above is
> PALEOGRAPHY.
>
> That is another word for "handwriting analysis".

No, actually its not.  Both examine handwriting, but the information
derived from the examination is utterly and completely different.

> No (NT related) papyrii fragment has been radio-carbon dated and published.
>
> FYI.

Can you disprove the palaeographic dating?  No?  Thought not.
mountain man - 24 Aug 2007 02:10 GMT
>>>>Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> No, actually its not.  Both examine handwriting, but the information
> derived from the examination is utterly and completely different.

Yes, I must admit the processes have their artistic merit.
Sadly, both cannot detect a good forgery.
End of story.

>> No (NT related) papyrii fragment has been radio-carbon dated and
>> published.
>>
>> FYI.
>
> Can you disprove the palaeographic dating?  No?  Thought not.

I am not out to disprove the palaeographic dating Larry.
How can you disprove art?

Pete Brown
THESIS: Constantine invented Christianity.
Porphyry's additional writings were forged.
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes
Larry Swain - 24 Aug 2007 16:47 GMT
>>>>>Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> I am not out to disprove the palaeographic dating Larry.
> How can you disprove art?

Then you accept palaeographic dating, in which case there's no need to
discuss this further.  So I see you haven't removed your website yet in
spite of your postulate having been disproven.

> Pete Brown
> THESIS: Constantine invented Christianity.
> Porphyry's additional writings were forged.
> http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes
Matt Giwer - 24 Aug 2007 04:59 GMT
>>> Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>>>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> No (NT related) papyrii fragment has been radio-carbon dated and published.

    No URLs there either but you are so confident to give search terms that you
much have verified they work and yet you give no URLs.

Signature

No one complained when Jews drove Palestinians into the sea.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3858
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 Old Testament http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/ot.phtml a6

mountain man - 24 Aug 2007 08:04 GMT
>>>> Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>>>>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> No URLs there either but you are so confident to give search terms that
> you much have verified they work and yet you give no URLs.

Well Matt I have provided a whole stack of papyri fragments
that according to the experts in the new testament history field
represent fragments of bits and pieces of the NT.  The problem
is they have no dates. Noone dated the documents.

Every single assertion in respect to the chronology of these NT
papyrii fragments relies on the ART of paleography. END of
story.  Nothing --- I repeat none of these fragments -- have
had published C14 results in any journal.  The only NT C14
results are in respect of 2 codices (gThomas, gJudas).

Search to your hearts content. I have summarised what you
will find above.

Best wishes,

Pete
Matt Giwer - 25 Aug 2007 04:27 GMT
>>>>> Matt Giwer napisal(a):
>>>>>>>> In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>> you much have verified they work and yet you give no URLs.
> Well Matt I have provided a whole stack of papyri fragments

> that according to the experts in the new testament history field
> represent fragments of bits and pieces of the NT.  The problem
> is they have no dates. Noone dated the documents.

    Then you are not offering any evidence. You are offering the opinion of
believers. Why did you not say so?

> Every single assertion in respect to the chronology of these NT
> papyrii fragments relies on the ART of paleography. END of
> story.  Nothing --- I repeat none of these fragments -- have
> had published C14 results in any journal.  The only NT C14
> results are in respect of 2 codices (gThomas, gJudas).

    Believing is an art in itself. Given their demonstrable nonsense in  so many
areas based solely upon belief I see no reason to expect anything different here.

> Search to your hearts content. I have summarised what you
> will find above.

Signature

The purpose of peace talks between Palestine and Israel is to prevent
Palestine from ever being free of the Israel occupation.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3842
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 book review http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/willing-executioners.phtml a7

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] - 18 Aug 2007 18:29 GMT
BernardZ a ecrit :
> > In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious
> > factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and
> > old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.
>
> We have parts of the Gospel of John much older then this!

which speak of a 'begotten' `theos`
Hovite - 09 Aug 2007 11:45 GMT
Treat that article with care, as the history contains errors.

Taking just a couple of sentences:

"It was British-born Flavius Constantinus (Constantine, originally
Custennyn or Custennin) (272-337) who authorised the compilation of
the writings now called the New Testament. After the death of his
father in 306, Constantine became King of Britain, Gaul and Spain, and
then, after a series of victorious battles, Emperor of the Roman
Empire."

Constantine was not born in Britain.

His name was not originally Custennyn or Custennin (those are Welsh
forms that evolved about two centuries afterwards).

He was never King (rex) of anywhere. His titles included Caesar (from
306), Augustus (from 307), also Consul, Imperator, and several others,
but never rex.

Also, there are references to Christ and Christians in the writings of
Tacitus, Pliny, Josephus, and Suetonius. Some of these passages may be
forged, or may refer to a different god or cult, and Tacitus and
Suetonius place Christ in different reigns, but the article doesn't
seem to mention these authors at all.
mountain man - 09 Aug 2007 14:43 GMT
> Treat that article with care, as the history contains errors.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Suetonius place Christ in different reigns, but the article doesn't
> seem to mention these authors at all.

This article makes specific reference to
Tacitus, Pliny, Josephus, and Suetonius:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/review_EVOCC.htm

Best wishes,

Pete Brown
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.