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History Forum / General / Ancient History / July 2008



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Peter S. Wells

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Larry Swain - 23 Jul 2008 17:21 GMT
Just wondering if anyone has read Peter S. Wells latest, Barbarians to
Angels: The Dark Ages Reconsidered?
Michael Kuettner - 23 Jul 2008 21:22 GMT
"Larry Swain" schrieb :

> Just wondering if anyone has read Peter S. Wells latest, Barbarians to Angels:
> The Dark Ages Reconsidered?

No, I haven't. But could you expand a little bit on the gist of his work ?
Is he describing a "paradigm-shift" (I hate this word !) ?
Or is he recording the swing of the pendulum of historiography ?
Btw, I've been in Ravenna yesterday. Damned good work of those barbarians ...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Larry Swain - 24 Jul 2008 06:28 GMT
> "Larry Swain" schrieb :
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Or is he recording the swing of the pendulum of historiography ?
> Btw, I've been in Ravenna yesterday. Damned good work of those barbarians ...

No kidding!

I don't know, I just saw a blurb for the book which reads:

The barbarians who destroyed the glory that was Rome demolished
civilization along with it, and for the next four centuries the peasants
and artisans of Europe barely held on. Random violence, mass migration,
disease, and starvation were the only way of life. This is the picture
of the Dark Ages that most historians promote. But archaeology tells a
different story. Peter S. Wells, one of the world's leading
archaeologists, surveys the archaeological record to demonstrate that
the Dark Ages were not dark at all. The kingdoms of Christendom that
emerged starting in the ninth century sprang from a robust, previously
little-known, European culture, albeit one that left behind few written
texts. This recently recognized culture achieved heights in artistry,
technology, craft production, commerce, and learning. Future assessments
of the period between Rome and Charlemagne will need to incorporate this
fresh new picture.

I tried to get a session at a conference that focused on some of the
recent works on Late Antiquity: Wells, Halsall, Heather, Ward-Perkins,
Julia Smith, WICKHAM ETC...and sought to discuss the impasse re: the
"Fall of Rome", but the session was rejected.
Michael Kuettner - 24 Jul 2008 23:56 GMT
"Larry Swain" schrieb :
>> "Larry Swain" schrieb :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> The barbarians who destroyed the glory that was Rome

were trained and rose to the highest positions in the Roman army.

> demolished civilization along with it,

Ooops ;-)

> and for the next four centuries the peasants

What peasants ? Peasants were unknown among "barbarians" until
they adopted "Roman" administration via the church.

> and artisans of Europe barely held on. Random violence, mass migration,
> disease, and starvation were the only way of life.

Interesting. This surely explains Gaul, Raetium, etc.

> This is the picture of the Dark Ages that most historians promote.

Anglo-Saxon historians.

> But archaeology tells a different story.

Surprise, surprise !
;-)

> Peter S. Wells, one of the world's leading archaeologists, surveys the
> archaeological record to demonstrate that the Dark Ages were not dark at all.
> The kingdoms of Christendom that emerged starting in the ninth century sprang
> from a robust, previously little-known, European culture,

Bullshit.
What European culture ?
Merovingians in the service of Byzantine, who massacred Alamanni,
Langobardi and Saxons ?

The only known "European" civilization were the Christian monasteries ...

> albeit one that left behind few written texts.

Really ?
Although many documents were destroyed in WW II, we still have copies
(well, not in Britain, but in Central Europe and France).

> This recently recognized culture achieved heights in artistry,

Which culture ?
Proto-Medieval ? ;-)

> technology, craft production, commerce, and learning. Future assessments of
> the period between Rome and Charlemagne will need to incorporate this fresh
> new picture.

Fresh ? New ? Only for Anglo-Saxons ...

> I tried to get a session at a conference that focused on some of the recent
> works on Late Antiquity: Wells, Halsall, Heather, Ward-Perkins, Julia Smith,
> WICKHAM ETC...and sought to discuss the impasse re: the "Fall of Rome", but
> the session was rejected.

Sad to hear that ! If you want to discuss the subject, start a thread.
I'll do my best to hold up my part of the discussion.

My observations re. Anglo-Saxon historiography weren't directed at you, of
course.
I've just learned over the years that the Brits & USAns have a rather
limited view of Europe outside of the British Isles.
"Dark Ages" outside of AngloSaxon historiography is reserved for Greece between
the fall of Mycene and Homer in Europe.

For Paul : You still owe me the promised overview of Bachrach : Early
Carolingian
warfare.
Plus : Could one of youse give me an idea what Halsall writes ?
Just a short overview would suffice.
Maybe it would start a discussion ...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Larry Swain - 25 Jul 2008 18:23 GMT
> "Larry Swain" schrieb :
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> were trained and rose to the highest positions in the Roman army.

Michael, I wouldn't get too exercised about correcting a blurb on the
back of a book, even one by an historian....

>>demolished civilization along with it,
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Merovingians in the service of Byzantine, who massacred Alamanni,
> Langobardi and Saxons ?

I think thou dost protest too much.

> The only known "European" civilization were the Christian monasteries ...

I would question that, at least to a degree.  The Romans were certainly
successful in the areas they ruled at creating Roman culture and
imposing it on the denizens...sure aspects of native culture survived,
but nonetheless some aspects of Roman life were the same all over the
empire.  The various Germanic tribes (and to a degree some of the
non-Germanic tribes) all seem to have a had a similar culture, with of
course local differences.  Much of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries,
these were cross pollinating, and Germans adopted and saw themselves as
Romans.  So at least across Western Europe where Romans and Germans held
sway, one can speak of a "european civilization", granted that leaves
out a bit chunk of Europe, and your criticism that Brits, and Americans
tend not to think of that other chunk as "Europe"....

>>albeit one that left behind few written texts.
>
> Really ?
> Although many documents were destroyed in WW II, we still have copies
> (well, not in Britain, but in Central Europe and France).

Sure, but I would say the survival of documents in the 20th century is
not at all an apt analogy to the 4th, 5th, and 6th centuries in Western
Europe for many reasons.

>>This recently recognized culture achieved heights in artistry,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Fresh ? New ? Only for Anglo-Saxons ...

Once again, protesting too much.....MGH aside, there hasn't been a great
deal of work done on this even among German and French scholarship until
the last generation, other than philologists.

>>I tried to get a session at a conference that focused on some of the recent
>>works on Late Antiquity: Wells, Halsall, Heather, Ward-Perkins, Julia Smith,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Sad to hear that ! If you want to discuss the subject, start a thread.
> I'll do my best to hold up my part of the discussion.

I would love to discuss the subject, but haven't read all the books!  I
was trying to get a round table of scholars together who had and who
could discuss the issues.  I had people already lined up for the
discussion but the conference organizers for some reason said "no".

> My observations re. Anglo-Saxon historiography weren't directed at you, of
> course.
> I've just learned over the years that the Brits & USAns have a rather
> limited view of Europe outside of the British Isles.
> "Dark Ages" outside of AngloSaxon historiography is reserved for Greece between
> the fall of Mycene and Homer in Europe.

We had that discussion, remember?

> For Paul : You still owe me the promised overview of Bachrach : Early
> Carolingian
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner
Martin Edwards - 24 Jul 2008 07:33 GMT
> "Larry Swain" schrieb :
>> Just wondering if anyone has read Peter S. Wells latest, Barbarians to Angels:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner

It was the Byzantines when they took it back.

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Corporate society looks after everything.  All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions.  -From “Rollerball”

Larry Swain - 24 Jul 2008 17:35 GMT
>> "Larry Swain" schrieb :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
> It was the Byzantines when they took it back.

Check again, Martin....while there is much that is Byzantine, the
"barbarians" did a great deal too.
Peter Jason - 26 Jul 2008 03:39 GMT
> Just wondering if anyone has read Peter S.
> Wells latest, Barbarians to Angels: The
> Dark Ages Reconsidered?

Not yet.  But I have just seen the DVD of
candid Edwardian scenes by Mitchell & Kenyon
(1901 - 1908), in areas notorious for
"Satanic Mills" ...
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0445886/

The denizens so filmed gave no indication of
starvation and depression, and seemed rather
jolly and well fed.  Of course they exhibited
no fashion sense at all.  The voice-over did
mention that the "working class" smelled
pretty bad, especially in crowded cinemas,
and may have carried a few fleas and lice,
not to mention other various eperdimal flora.

The "depressed/oppressed" working class may
have been a figment of Communist imagination
and propaganda, rather like the Great
Global-Warming Cult of today.  Of course
certain historians lapped this all up.

When I finished watching this DVD I felt a
pang of regret at the passing of  simple and
uncomplicated times, the vestiges of which I
can faintly remember.  O woe!
Martin Edwards - 26 Jul 2008 07:33 GMT
>> Just wondering if anyone has read Peter S.
>> Wells latest, Barbarians to Angels: The
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>  

And bums go to the Big Rock Candy Mountain when they die.

Signature

Corporate society looks after everything.  All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions.  -From “Rollerball”

Peter Jason - 27 Jul 2008 06:53 GMT
*sniff *
Martin Edwards - 27 Jul 2008 07:36 GMT
> *sniff *

Everyone to their own.

Signature

Corporate society looks after everything.  All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions.  -From “Rollerball”

 
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