Genetics, history and population migration
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imipak - 03 Jul 2009 06:37 GMT The following page lists the mutation rates for various short tandem repeats (STRs) in the Y chromosome. These mutations are used to track the movement of populations over time.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm
(It turns out, from very recent studies, that the very slow-mutating STRs vary in their mutation rate over time, so this table is not 100% correct, but it's good enough for the timescales we're concerned with. Those changes are only important to those studying humanity back tens or hundreds of thousands of years.)
The way it works is simple enough. There is an equal (roughly) probability of an STR lengthening or shortening, so the standard modal type (the mode of the frequency of the various STRs across the whole of a population) will - for a statistically large enough population - be identical to the founder's STR's. (There will only ever be one founder for a given SMT, as the Y chromosome is inherited along the male line only.)
A given STR is known as a genetic marker and the number of times it occurs is the value of that marker.
Because values can both increase and decrease, it's not just a simple matter of looking at a handful of markers to see where someone fits in. Even the broadest classifications usually require about 12 markers, and generally nobody trusts a result under 37 markers, and most serious investigators go into the 67+ range.
However, STRs aren't the only thing people check these days. It's long- since evolved into hunts for single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-nucleotide_polymorphism
Again, these are inherited along the male line, and as with STRs, they change very slowly. If a person has an identified grouping of STRs and SNPs, there is no serious question of them having a direct common ancestor along the paternal line with every single person with those same STRs and SNPs. By looking at the mutation rates of the various STRs, and by examining when specific SNPs appear, it is possible to build a very sparse but entirely sound family tree of haplogroups. An example for the R haplogroups can be found here:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html
You can then calculate the time to the most recent common ancestor of any two people with the same haplogroup, by looking at the precise differences in the more rapidly-changing markers and the probability of those changes happening. What you end up with is a probability curve that obviously can't extend beyond the age of that given haplogroup. This curve tells you the probability that this most recent common ancestor appeared more recently than a given amount of time back. You can further refine the curve by taking into account what you know about your family tree and therefore what you can exclude as possibilities.
A similar technique exists for mitochondrial DNA, which is only inherited on the female line, but the haplogroups for that tend to be much more ancient. This makes it great for validating where ancient populations as a whole were at a given time, but it's less useful for genealogical work at this time.
(Although there has been some good work done since on non-European populations, a good introduction is Syke's book "Seven Daughters of Eve", named for the seven haplogroups he identified as stemming from Mitochondrial Eve, the earliest woman we can uniquely identify through mtDNA.)
Now, with respect to the people of the near East, the page of interest is this one:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ09.html
Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from the modal type means you are no longer of the modal type, so nobody who belongs to ANY haplogroup for which there has been a mutation on ANY marker out of those used for the Cohen Modal Type =OR= carries an SNP belonging specifically to a haplogroup whose modal type is NOT of the Cohen Modal Type is Cohen Modal Type.
As the CMT occurs in both J1 and J2 (but not J), there is a precursor haplogroup currently unidentified that is common to J1 and J2 and descended from J that this modal type appears in. The majority of descendent haplogroups will have mutated off the modal type. Since J1 and J2 spawn off it, and there are no other J lines, there's clearly a genetic bottleneck at the time the CMT appears, at least within the J haplogroup, and may extend back indefinitely into J but no further back than that. There is nothing significant in any other haplogroup at the time, so no planetary disaster need be considered, but clearly there's a regional problem and it only affects these people, not other populations in the region at the time.
I will leave it to others to bicker and squabble over how to interpret the data, though doubtless those most inclined to bicker and squabble will neither reference the data nor make use of it. Doubtless, too, we'll see repeated arguments over what "modal" means, who knew what when, and who defined what how, but that sort of trash is best left to the experts on trash. Those interested in the science can reach their own conclusions, WHETHER OR NOT THOSE AGREE WITH ANYONE ELSE'S VIEW. There is no requirement to adhere to a specific viewpoint in science, merely an obligation to use the best data available and a gentlemen's agreement to respect when that data contradicts a cherished belief.
How does this impact history, which is written, not bred? Well, it's quite fascinating. It turns out that technology and culture flow quite independently of populations. Since culture includes traditions and socially-maintained belief systems, and technology leaves the artefacts, this can seriously screw with written histories and archaeology in unpredictable ways. As a result, genetic archaeology (studying the genetic markers of the DNA found in human bones and hair from archaeological sites) is proving important in unscrambling the omelette.
JTEM - 03 Jul 2009 07:21 GMT > Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from > the modal type means you are no longer of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to a haplogroup whose modal type is NOT of the > Cohen Modal Type is Cohen Modal Type. Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're talking about, and you have no business even attempting it.
The whole point of the "Cohen Modal Type" is that the vast majority of Jews -- oh, 90% or more -- don't match it. In fact, most of those claiming to be "descendants of Aaron" don't have it. But, PLENTY of non-Jews do!
So, what does it "prove"? Absolutely NOTHING. What does it suggest? That the vast majority of Jews either intermarried with their local non-Jewish populations, or are descendant from latter day converts.
Matt Giwer - 03 Jul 2009 09:05 GMT >> Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from >> the modal type means you are no longer of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> to a haplogroup whose modal type is NOT of the >> Cohen Modal Type is Cohen Modal Type.
> Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > intermarried with their local non-Jewish populations, or > are descendant from latter day converts. "How and when the Jewish people were invented" is a bestseller in Israel. Hardly surprising the ignorant sh.ts still have not heard of it.
 Signature The squattertowns will continue to expand until the terrorism ceases. The provocation will continue until the response ceases. The snakebites will continue until morale improves. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4149 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8 Fri Jul 3 04:03:17 EDT 2009
igor - 06 Jul 2009 18:46 GMT > > Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from > > the modal type means you are no longer of the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > intermarried with their local non-Jewish populations, or > are descendant from latter day converts. No, your simple mind cant understand the extent of the issue. Canaanites or Phoenicians as Greeks used to call them constitute a large portion of Jewish etnos and so do many Europeans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
JTEM - 06 Jul 2009 20:10 GMT > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > No, Yes.
Idiot.
igor - 06 Jul 2009 21:10 GMT > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Idiot. Bleh.
imipak - 06 Jul 2009 23:26 GMT > > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bleh. You will have noticed, of course, that my original post on this thread made no mention of Jews (it solely discussed the concepts of haplogroups, modal types, what they were and how they could be dated), but did predict trolling from JTEM and Matt. And, guess what! Mind you, it was a safe bet they'd never actually READ the post. For starters, they can't read. For another, they're much too interested in bashing to actually discuss anything.
Sure, I referred to the Cohen Modal Type. I also referred to the R haplogroup and the modal type for that. In neither case did I describe any ethic, racial or religious group to those modal types. This was something Matt and JTEM added all on their own, with no outside help. Which goes to show one thing - they're obsessive as hell. Instead of a rational debate about what might be meant by the genetics, the Two Trolls Of SHA were much too busy tilting at windmills.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 00:42 GMT > > > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > rational debate about what might be meant by the genetics, the Two > Trolls Of SHA were much too busy tilting at windmills. It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. He repeats same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much evidence presented refuting his every single claim, its boring, come on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you? JTEM is lacking excitement in his personal life so he looks for it on Usenet by contradicting everyone about everything, this way he gets attention, he is a clown. I learned quite a few things form other posters replying to them, so they do have their purpose on SHA.
JTEM - 07 Jul 2009 02:05 GMT > It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. People use the word "Duh" around you a lot, don't they?
I mean, an anti-Jewish Nazi? Really? Ya think?
igor - 07 Jul 2009 02:32 GMT > > It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. > > People use the word "Duh" around you a lot, don't > they? Yes, actually its "Da", means "Yes" in Russian.
> I mean, an anti-Jewish Nazi? Really? Ya think? Nazi? I thought he was a disgruntled, overweight senior citizen living in a trailer park.....
Matt Giwer - 07 Jul 2009 12:37 GMT >> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. > > People use the word "Duh" around you a lot, don't > they? > > I mean, an anti-Jewish Nazi? Really? Ya think? You were invited to present specific examples and you did not. Why not?
 Signature The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious tradition. We have no idea who started it nor when nor why. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4166 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/nizgas3.html a4 Tue Jul 7 07:36:23 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer - 07 Jul 2009 12:36 GMT > It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames > jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. You are invited to present all the specific examples you have. As you have none, attacking the messenger is used instead of dealing with the message.
> He repeats > same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much > evidence presented refuting his every single claim, its boring, igor arrived only a few months ago. How could igor know? igor like hump?
> come > on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I learned quite a few things form other posters replying to them, so > they do have their purpose on SHA. Which you bible thumpers do not as the bible is not history.
 Signature The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious tradition with no known source, nor age, nor authenticity. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4160 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12 Tue Jul 7 07:33:22 EDT 2009
igor - 07 Jul 2009 19:05 GMT > > It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames > > jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. > > You are invited to present all the specific examples you have. As you have > none, attacking the messenger is used instead of dealing with the message. Your countless posts speak for them selfs, but you know that.
> > He repeats > > same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much > > evidence presented refuting his every single claim, its boring, > > igor arrived only a few months ago. How could igor know? igor like hump? Another evidence of Matt's stupidity.
> > come > > on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Which you bible thumpers do not as the bible is not history. You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.
> -- > The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12 > Tue Jul 7 07:33:22 EDT 2009 imipak - 07 Jul 2009 20:28 GMT > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so. "Contribute" is a bit of a stretch with anything Matt writes. At the moment, he's drowned out two threads on ancient weapons and armour, merely because he thinks it's cool to stop others talking about what they want to discuss.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 21:36 GMT > > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any > > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > merely because he thinks it's cool to stop others talking about what > they want to discuss. You are correct, narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination is not contribution.
imipak - 07 Jul 2009 21:51 GMT > > > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any > > > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You are correct, narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination is not > contribution. Very true. But now you come to mention it, we may need to look closer at the "narrow-minded". Let's look at the threads on chainmail and longbows. He defines what he considers to be ancient history. Ok, I can live with obnoxious twerps being, well, obnoxious twerps. It happens. So I show that both chainmail and longbows cover the entire period he has defined, and a little more besides on either side. "Aha!" says he. "It doesn't matter if it's ancient history, if it's - also- prehistory AND medieval. If it exists in any time in addition to ancient history, it HAS to be that something else, particularly if someone I don't like is posting on the subject. Hell, if it's posted by someone I don't like, then it can never be ancient history, no matter what."
This isn't being "narrow-minded", as even those things that meet his narrow definition are "failed" by him. I guess it could be considered bias and discrimination, but I think we need to add "xenophobia" (fear of the different) and "sociopath" (hatred of society and all things social) to the list.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 22:18 GMT > > > > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any > > > > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > of the different) and "sociopath" (hatred of society and all things > social) to the list. Agree, I also suspect personal reasons for his hatred of Jews and his perverted disposition, perhaps a Jewish ex who trounced him morally and financially. One thing is for sure: he is a very sick man.
Matt Giwer - 08 Jul 2009 03:12 GMT >>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames >>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. >> You are invited to present all the specific examples you have. As you have >> none, attacking the messenger is used instead of dealing with the message..
> Your countless posts speak for them selfs, but you know that. No examples. Examples were not expected.
>>> He repeats >>> same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much >>> evidence presented refuting his every single claim, its boring, >> igor arrived only a few months ago. How could igor know? igor like hump?
> Another evidence of Matt's stupidity. Hump was here a few years ago. That you?
>>> come >>> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> they do have their purpose on SHA. >> Which you bible thumpers do not as the bible is not history.
> You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so. The bible is NOT history. I have only responded to crap posts about the bible and Jews.
 Signature The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious tradition. We have no idea who started it nor when nor why. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4166 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12 Tue Jul 7 22:10:06 EDT 2009
igor - 08 Jul 2009 06:02 GMT > >>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames > >>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Hump was here a few years ago. That you? You must be completely flipped, what are you talking about? If you are you asking if I was on this group as hump a few years ago? No. My girlfriend found your old posts on internet somehow, from years ago, you were really out of line there, you became a lot mellower, I bet your testosterone levels are lot lower now....LOL
> >>> come > >>> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12 > Tue Jul 7 22:10:06 EDT 2009 Matt Giwer - 08 Jul 2009 09:49 GMT >>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames >>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > ago, you were really out of line there, you became a lot mellower, I > bet your testosterone levels are lot lower now....LOL I am talking about the fact that you have no examples to support your mindless assertion.
>>>>> come >>>>> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12 >> Tue Jul 7 22:10:06 EDT 2009
 Signature When Israel talks about settlers it it talking about criminal squatters. -- The Iron Webmater, 4162 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12 Wed Jul 8 04:48:08 EDT 2009
igor - 08 Jul 2009 23:19 GMT > >>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames > >>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12 > Wed Jul 8 04:48:08 EDT 2009 Statements like "criminal squatters" and "dead Zionists" do not help the Palestinian crisis, au contraire, you and people like you are the cause of it. You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter). how do you think denying holocaust and coming up with the idea for newly designed religion for some Bedouin Arabs will help the Palestinian cause? Why would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis???
Matt Giwer - 10 Jul 2009 16:08 GMT >>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames >>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> I am talking about the fact that you have no examples to support your >> mindless assertion. ...
> Statements like "criminal squatters" and "dead Zionists" do not help > the Palestinian crisis, au contraire, you and people like you are the > cause of it. Transferring a country's population into land under military occupation has been a crime since Nuremberg when people were hanged for doing it at Nuremberg. Obviously they are criminals.
Ever since Jabotinsky, the openly stated goal of Zionism has been to expel the Palestinians by force and steal their property. That is not a secrect. Dead Zionists are no longer able to murder and steal in accordance with their ideology.
I have stated facts. The truth cannot be antisemitic.
> You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics > (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter). They are only sigs, dumbshit.
> how do you think denying holocaust Everything I have ever said about the jewish holocaust thing has been strictly in accordance with the available physical evidence. You are invited to produce anything I have in my sigs which is not.
> and coming up with the idea for newly designed > religion for some Bedouin Arabs I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.
> will help the Palestinian cause? Why > would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis??? A neo-nazi is no more than a person whom Jews do not like.
If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to present it.
Remain silent and let people think you are a idiot. Reply and remove all doubt.
 Signature Zionism is a political cult dedicated to murdering Palestinians and stealing their property. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4165 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/ a11 Fri Jul 10 10:59:02 EDT 2009
igor - 10 Jul 2009 18:01 GMT > >>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames > >>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I have stated facts. The truth cannot be antisemitic. So kill all Zionists, thats your solution to the Palestinian crisis??? Would you suggest building concentration camps with furnaces somewhere around west bank or gaza? Jabotinsky does not represent millions of civilians in Israel, he is an extreme a.shole as you are. Never heard of him.
> > You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics > > (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter). > > They are only sigs, dumbshit. Please spear me the evidence of your hatred.
> > how do you think denying holocaust > > Everything I have ever said about the jewish holocaust thing has been > strictly in accordance with the available physical evidence. You are invited > to produce anything I have in my sigs which is not. Many posters furnished mountains of evidence for you, why do you need more?
> > and coming up with the idea for newly designed > > religion for some Bedouin Arabs > > I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain. Yes you do. But you know that.
> > will help the Palestinian cause? Why > > would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis??? > > A neo-nazi is no more than a person whom Jews do not like. Not just Jews, but you know that.
> If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to > present it. > > Remain silent and let people think you are a idiot. Reply and remove all doubt. Why would xenophobe like yourself even care about Palestinian cause? Because they are in conflict with Jews???
> -- > Zionism is a political cult dedicated to murdering Palestinians > and stealing their property. > -- The Iron Webmaster, 4165 > http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/a11 > Fri Jul 10 10:59:02 EDT 2009 igor - 10 Jul 2009 20:00 GMT > > >>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames > > >>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Jabotinsky does not represent millions of civilians in Israel, he is > an extreme a.shole as you are. Never heard of him. And even if he said that as you claim, he never encouraged Jews to kill Palestinians, so comparing him to you is unjust.
> > > You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics > > > (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter). [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Not just Jews, but you know that. Go to any public place in Minsk and announce that you are a Nazi, Aryan looking dudes (according to Nazi definition, which is completely absurd) will literally tear you a new one.....
> > If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to > > present it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/a11 > > Fri Jul 10 10:59:02 EDT 2009 Matt Giwer - 11 Jul 2009 10:36 GMT ...
> Go to any public place in Minsk and announce that you are a Nazi, > Aryan looking dudes (according to Nazi definition, which is > completely absurd) will literally tear you a new one..... In just the winter the NSDAP formed the government of Germany, the communists murdered more people than the most the Nazis are accused of killing. Communists have no room to complain.
 Signature The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious tradition with no known source, nor age, nor authenticity. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4160 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12 Sat Jul 11 05:33:34 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer - 11 Jul 2009 10:46 GMT ...
> And even if he said that as you claim, he never encouraged Jews to > kill Palestinians, so comparing him to you is unjust. Not only did he encourage Jews to murder Palestinians he formed a terrorist organization and was finally arrested for leading an armed march to the so-called temple mount.
Jews were the first to introduce terror bombing to Palestine. They deserve a mention in Guinness for inventing the car bomb. Jabotinsky's military background was a major contributor to it.
You can probably find his The Iron Wall on the web. Give it a read.
 Signature Zionism is a political cult dedicated to murdering Palestinians and stealing their property. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4165 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a3 Sat Jul 11 05:36:04 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer - 11 Jul 2009 10:32 GMT >>>>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames >>>>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> ideology. >> I have stated facts. The truth cannot be antisemitic.
> So kill all Zionists, thats your solution to the Palestinian crisis??? I did not say that.
> Would you suggest building concentration camps with furnaces somewhere > around west bank or gaza? Nor did I say that.
Send them back where they came from is the most obvious approach.
> Jabotinsky does not represent millions of civilians in Israel, he is > an extreme a.shole as you are. Never heard of him. It does not matter what he represents in general. The Likud party of Netanyahu does specifically state it is the successor of Jabotinsky's revisionist movement.
Nor is it surprising that someone has ignorant as you has never heard of him.
However, no one passed early adolescence could possibly believe taking over Palestine could be accomplished without violence. The purpose has always been theft. Just a few years ago the Sassoon report prepared for the government of Israel documented hundreds of cases of existing and on-going land theft in the West Bank. The government did nothing to stop it. The government in fact encourages and supports it. The government represents a self-declared jewish state. Therefore the government has declared jews are thieves.
You should learn what you are talking about some day. It likely would hurt you but the pain would do you some good.
>>> You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics >>> (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> strictly in accordance with the available physical evidence. You are invited >> to produce anything I have in my sigs which is not.
> Many posters furnished mountains of evidence for you, why do you need > more? None of it has constituted evidence in the batter of gas chambers or mass extermination which is all that matters. And there is significant evidence to the contrary mainly from impeccably jewish sources.
If you had ever considered the matter skeptically, which you never have, you would be able to tell me what particular physical evidence convinced you when you believed none of it. But you have always believed. You are not rational.
>>> and coming up with the idea for newly designed >>> religion for some Bedouin Arabs >> I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain..
> Yes you do. But you know that. If you cannot explain just say so.
>>> will help the Palestinian cause? Why >>> would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis??? >> A neo-nazi is no more than a person whom Jews do not like.. > > Not just Jews, but you know that. Jews and communists are the only ones who get all emotional about them. Monarchists used to get just as emotional about Napoleon's sympathizers. But there was a definition for those of Napoleon. There is no functional definition for these imagined neo-nazis.
Please define if you believe otherwise AND show how it relates to the NSDAP. Antisemitism was a trivial afterthought for the NSDAP so don't waste your time going into that.
>> If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to >> present it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Why would xenophobe like yourself even care about Palestinian cause? > Because they are in conflict with Jews??? The US is paying for it. My tax dollars, my interest.
As to Israel in general take a look at www.ussliberty.org for details. There is a very good reason why Israel has declined all offers by the US Navy to participate in live fire exercises. Our Navy has an unfortunate accident scheduled.
 Signature The Jews first appear in history in 67 BC. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4155 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a3 Sat Jul 11 04:59:32 EDT 2009
JTEM - 13 Jul 2009 13:39 GMT > You are trying to commingle ancient history with > modern day politics (politics are definitely outside > of this groups charter). <Cough> and religion <Cough> <Cough>
imipak - 13 Jul 2009 17:54 GMT > > You are trying to commingle ancient history with > > modern day politics (politics are definitely outside > > of this groups charter). > > <Cough> and religion <Cough> <Cough> If religion was outside the charter, why do you post your religious beliefs here? You don't see me preaching here, do you?
Matt Giwer - 13 Jul 2009 21:10 GMT >>> You are trying to commingle ancient history with >>> modern day politics (politics are definitely outside >>> of this groups charter). >> <Cough> and religion <Cough> <Cough>
> If religion was outside the charter, why do you post your religious > beliefs here? You don't see me preaching here, do you? The issue is of course that the bible contains no known or recognizable history and therefore discussion of it as history is off topic. The subject is history not stories invented by unknown people for unknown purposes.
 Signature Only believvers in god would kill believers in god. -- The Iron Webmaster, 4168 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12 Mon Jul 13 16:08:49 EDT 2009
imipak - 14 Jul 2009 00:24 GMT > >>> You are trying to commingle ancient history with > >>> modern day politics (politics are definitely outside [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > history and therefore discussion of it as history is off topic. The subject is > history not stories invented by unknown people for unknown purposes. That may very well be the case, but it doesn't alter the fact that you and JTEM introduce Biblical text into this group, whereas I do not. Thus, if it is off-charter, why are you doing so? Explain this to me.
JTEM - 07 Jul 2009 02:01 GMT > You will have noticed, of course, that my original > post on this thread made no mention of Jews You babbled about the "Cohen Modal Type," AGAIN, despite the fact that you haven't a frigging clue.
That's like talking about the Vatican or the Pope and claiming you never said anything about Catholics.
Loser.
imipak - 08 Jul 2009 21:54 GMT > > You will have noticed, of course, that my original > > post on this thread made no mention of Jews [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's like talking about the Vatican or the Pope and > claiming you never said anything about Catholics. The Cohen Modal Type is a specific modal type that occurs in many J1 and some J2 individuals. It is a genetic trait, not a religious one. The mutation rates for markers are given below. Now, please state what genetics has to do with religion or frak off.
472 0.00001 578 0.00008 426 0.00009 454 0.00016 455 0.00016 436 0.00018 641 0.00018 490 0.00019 450 0.0002 388 0.00022 594 0.00029 640 0.00034 531 0.00037 492 0.00042 617 0.00042 392 0.00052 568 0.00053 590 0.00054 438 0.00055 537 0.00057 393 0.00076 565 0.00087 487 0.00097 437 0.00099
JTEM - 09 Jul 2009 04:19 GMT > > > You will have noticed, of course, that my original > > > post on this thread made no mention of Jews [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The Cohen Modal Type is You haven't the faintest idea what it is, despite being told on several occasions.
imipak - 09 Jul 2009 04:36 GMT > > > > You will have noticed, of course, that my original > > > > post on this thread made no mention of Jews [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You haven't the faintest idea what it is, despite being told > on several occasions. First, no, you haven't "told me what it is". Second, unless you're willing to use the data, your claims are worthless.
JTEM - 09 Jul 2009 11:35 GMT > First, No, let's not play. You're an ignorant little piss whore.
imipak - 09 Jul 2009 17:12 GMT > > First, > > No, let's not play. So you can't make your case with the data - perhaps you can't even understand it. It's ok, you don't have to admit defeat publicly, we all know what you mean.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 01:57 GMT > So you can't make your case with the data That was your job, and you f.cked it up. YOU raised the Cohen Modal Type, YOU were the one who mistakenly believed he had a point, it was up to YOU to make a case.
You couldn't, and it's over.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 03:31 GMT > > So you can't make your case with the data > > That was your job, and you f.cked it up. YOU It is for the other side to falsify a hypothesis, where a hypothesis has been made.
> raised the Cohen Modal Type, YOU were the > one who mistakenly believed he had a point, it > was up to YOU to make a case. And what point do you imagine I was making? Go back to the start of this thread and quote me SPECIFICALLY where you imagine this point was made. And, no, referencing the modal type is not enough, unless you can prove it is somehow different from referencing the R haplogroup.
Show me the hypothesis. I dare you.
> You couldn't, and it's over. Sure it's over. You can't do diddly-squat with the data, you can't even understand what it says, so you're running away and sulking the way you always do. You're as bad as Aggy. Always assuming you're not Aggy, and given you act like him, it's getting hard to imagine you're not.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 03:33 GMT > It is for the other side to falsify a hypothesis, Okay, let's point out a little something here:
You don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand the material. You have yet to grasp what the "Cohen Modal Type" is, and you certainly are in no position to offer ideas based on it.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 07:28 GMT > > It is for the other side to falsify a hypothesis, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the "Cohen Modal Type" is, and you certainly are in > no position to offer ideas based on it. Your lack of reference to the data certainly tells me that you don't understand the material, and since I offered no ideas based on it, I would conclude that your lack of reading skills is astonishing only in their total absence.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 10:40 GMT > Your lack of reference to the data My "reference to the data" is how you introduced it twice, failing to comprehend it either time. Your first attempt was by far the sadder of the two:
: If the Cohen Modal Type is from 1,000 BC, and Jews exhibit : Cohen Modal Type more than anyone else in the Middle : East, the 8th century AD is of no importance. You must : explain what was going on1,000 BC for this one population : to exhibit this characteristic and no other. There. You don't know what the f.ck you're talking about. Ordinarily that would be okay, but not in the present circumstances where you won't shut up about it, AND you carry on as if you've got great knowledge.
HINT: A minority of a minority of Jews exhibit it.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 17:41 GMT > > Your lack of reference to the data > > My "reference to the data" is how you introduced it > twice, failing to comprehend it either time. Your first > attempt was by far the sadder of the two: Ok, let's take a look at this "reference".
> : If the Cohen Modal Type is from 1,000 BC, and Jews exhibit > : Cohen Modal Type more than anyone else in the Middle > : East, the 8th century AD is of no importance. You must > : explain what was going on1,000 BC for this one population > : to exhibit this characteristic and no other. An excellent quote, but from another thread entirely and therefore not applicable to this thread. There is no link between that thread and this.
Even if it were, this does not define the Cohen Modal Type, as you claim. It doesn't even define Jews. It defines only that there is a mutation event at 1,000 BC and concludes from this that you cannot have a founding father for this genetic line at 800 AD. Well, unless you now claim they had time travel back then.
However, this is not data. This is discussion. Show me where you reference the data. C'mon, I've posted the mutation rates and the J tree, you aught to be able to do something with that. No? Then it is because you do not understand the data and don't want me to rip you a new one by showing just how ignorant you are on the subject.
> There. You don't know what the f.ck you're talking about. > Ordinarily that would be okay, but not in the present > circumstances where you won't shut up about it, AND > you carry on as if you've got great knowledge. Well, in truth, I am actually highly knowledgeable. At least, relative to you. This is no great feat, though. It requires two skills - "reading" (something you show yourself incapable of) and "recognizing authoritative work" (something else you show yourself incapable of). I would not claim the level of expertise of, say, Ken Nordtvedt, John Chandler or Stephen Oppenheimer, but then I'm looking at a couple of very shallow, well-documented problems. They work at a depth far beyond my capacity and have made major discoveries in the field of historical genetics. My "great knowledge", as you call it, is really pretty much the standard fare for anyone interested in the topic of genetics in archaeology or genealogy.
That aside, this thread has no connection to the other. Your linkage is pure, unadulterated fantasy. No great surprise there, most of your trolls are based on your own delusions and not on outside evidence. Even had there been a link, two threads is hardly excessive.
You still haven't explained how this relates to the R haplotype. Why have you failed to mention that I've talked about that far more than I have about Cohen? (An equal amount in both threads on Cohen, but then extensively in several threads dealing with the origins of the British.) Where have you discussed R? You ignore it because recognizing that R forms the dominant part of my discussions on genetics in archaeology invalidates your paranoid delusions and shows you up to be the fool you are.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 18:25 GMT > Ok, let's take a look at this "reference". > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > An excellent quote, but from another thread entirely and > therefore not applicable to this thread. ....except that it demonstrates quite nicely that you haven't a clue what the "Cohen Modal Type" is.
> Even if it were, this does not define the Cohen Modal Type, It is exactly what you were speaking about.
> It defines only that there is a mutation event at 1,000 BC > and concludes from this that you cannot have a founding > father for this genetic line at 800 AD. Read it again, nimrod. The "This characteristic" is the Cohen Modal Type.
Oh; Jews don't express it more than anyone else in the middle east. In fact, they express it a great deal less.
> Show me where you reference the data. This is the "Data." It establishes beyond a doubt that #1 you haven't the faintest clue and #2 you're dishonest to the core, preferring to lie your a.s off than admit your errors.
Both established facts expressly rule out a conversation with you on the subject.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 20:15 GMT > > Ok, let's take a look at this "reference". > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ....except that it demonstrates quite nicely that you haven't > a clue what the "Cohen Modal Type" is. How, since I did not define it? I merely specified when it was from, something you have continually refused to explain or examine. Instead, you rave on about something I never addressed.
> > Even if it were, this does not define the Cohen Modal Type, > > It is exactly what you were speaking about. No it is not. I was speaking about WHEN the Cohen Modal Type appears. I did not define it.
> > It defines only that there is a mutation event at 1,000 BC > > and concludes from this that you cannot have a founding > > father for this genetic line at 800 AD. > > Read it again, nimrod. The "This characteristic" is the > Cohen Modal Type. Which is undefined in the quote you give. All that is specified is WHEN the Cohen Modal Type appears, along with a request for you to explain why this "when" does not and cannot be reconciled with your claims. (If there was a bottleneck in the 5th century AD, TMRCA would show a 5th century date. It shows a 1000 BC date. I asked you to explain why. You have never answered this question.)
> Oh; Jews don't express it more than anyone else in the > middle east. In fact, they express it a great deal less. Show me the data. Show me numbers. Show me that you've any grasp of the subject whatsoever. Repeating your claims is NOT good enough. Repeating someone else's claims is also NOT good enough. I want data. Hard data. Something you have refused to give.
> > Show me where you reference the data. > > This is the "Data." It establishes beyond a doubt that > #1 you haven't the faintest clue and #2 you're dishonest > to the core, preferring to lie your a.s off than admit your > errors. a) You making claims, which I've shown are based on a fatally-flawed reading of what I posted, is not data. It's an opinion. A rather warped, degenerate opinion, true, but still an opinion. b) Your quote contains no data. Your quote is a conclusion. Conclusions are not data. Show me the data. c) I've admitted when I've been wrong plenty of times, falsifying #2. You have never admitted when you've been wrong, showing #2 is more honestly applied to you.
> Both established facts expressly rule out a conversation > with you on the subject. #1 and #2 are not facts, they are opinions, based on false assumptions and your need to find someone to hate. You make no effort to establish them, so making it impossible for them to be "established" anything.
If they did indeed expressly "rule out a conversation", you would not have posted this reply or any other, falsifying your claim as to what these opinions rule out.
Clearly, you do not know what data is, what a fact is, or indeed what a conversation is.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 20:40 GMT > You haven't the faintest idea what it is, despite being told > on several occasions. You still haven't shown these "several occasions" and you still haven't shown via the hard data (alleles, marker values, mutation rates, STRs and SNPs - these are data) that you have enough understanding of the subject to offer any kind of qualified opinion on what others do or do not know.
Go on. Show me the data. Prove you're not a witless, bumbling fool.
igor - 06 Jul 2009 21:43 GMT > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Idiot. Practically every present day Spaniard has Jewish blood, after Judean War, Roman slave market was so saturated with Jewish slaves, slave prices collapsed, so I presume there is a lot of Jewish blood in present day Italians also.
imipak - 06 Jul 2009 23:32 GMT > > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > prices collapsed, so I presume there is a lot of Jewish blood in > present day Italians also. Maybe that's true for the population as a whole, I'm not going to doubt you on it, but it would be hard to prove in any individual case. yDNA only tests absolute male lineage, mtDNA only tests absolute female lineage, and xDNA is only useful for identifying that you are connected to a group with such-and-such a mutation, it doesn't tell you the nature of that relationship. Full genome studies might be helpful, but they're too rare and too expensive right now.
What bothers me the most, though, is that some of the really dramatic implications of the J* haplogroup study are being ignored on this list.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 00:54 GMT > > > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're > > > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > you the nature of that relationship. Full genome studies might be > helpful, but they're too rare and too expensive right now. I am shooting from the hip here, we all know about the implications of inquisition period in Spain, Phoenician colonies around Medetirrenian and Jewish war.
> What bothers me the most, though, is that some of the really dramatic > implications of the J* haplogroup study are being ignored on this list. What do you mean?
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