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History Forum / General / Ancient History / July 2009



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Genetics, history and population migration

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imipak - 03 Jul 2009 06:37 GMT
The following page lists the mutation rates for various short tandem
repeats (STRs) in the Y chromosome. These mutations are used to track
the movement of populations over time.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm

(It turns out, from very recent studies, that the very slow-mutating
STRs vary in their mutation rate over time, so this table is not 100%
correct, but it's good enough for the timescales we're concerned with.
Those changes are only important to those studying humanity back tens
or hundreds of thousands of years.)

The way it works is simple enough. There is an equal (roughly)
probability of an STR lengthening or shortening, so the standard modal
type (the mode of the frequency of the various STRs across the whole
of a population) will - for a statistically large enough population -
be identical to the founder's STR's. (There will only ever be one
founder for a given SMT, as the Y chromosome is inherited along the
male line only.)

A given STR is known as a genetic marker and the number of times it
occurs is the value of that marker.

Because values can both increase and decrease, it's not just a simple
matter of looking at a handful of markers to see where someone fits
in. Even the broadest classifications usually require about 12
markers, and generally nobody trusts a result under 37 markers, and
most serious investigators go into the 67+ range.

However, STRs aren't the only thing people check these days. It's long-
since evolved into hunts for single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-nucleotide_polymorphism

Again, these are inherited along the male line, and as with STRs, they
change very slowly. If a person has an identified grouping of STRs and
SNPs, there is no serious question of them having a direct common
ancestor along the paternal line with every single person with those
same STRs and SNPs. By looking at the mutation rates of the various
STRs, and by examining when specific SNPs appear, it is possible to
build a very sparse but entirely sound family tree of haplogroups. An
example for the R haplogroups can be found here:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

You can then calculate the time to the most recent common ancestor of
any two people with the same haplogroup, by looking at the precise
differences in the more rapidly-changing markers and the probability
of those changes happening. What you end up with is a probability
curve that obviously can't extend beyond the age of that given
haplogroup. This curve tells you the probability that this most recent
common ancestor appeared more recently than a given amount of time
back. You can further refine the curve by taking into account what you
know about your family tree and therefore what you can exclude as
possibilities.

A similar technique exists for mitochondrial DNA, which is only
inherited on the female line, but the haplogroups for that tend to be
much more ancient. This makes it great for validating where ancient
populations as a whole were at a given time, but it's less useful for
genealogical work at this time.

(Although there has been some good work done since on non-European
populations, a good introduction is Syke's book "Seven Daughters of
Eve", named for the seven haplogroups he identified as stemming from
Mitochondrial Eve, the earliest woman we can uniquely identify through
mtDNA.)

Now, with respect to the people of the near East, the page of interest
is this one:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ09.html

Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from the modal type means
you are no longer of the modal type, so nobody who belongs to ANY
haplogroup for which there has been a mutation on ANY marker out of
those used for the Cohen Modal Type =OR= carries an SNP belonging
specifically to a haplogroup whose modal type is NOT of the Cohen
Modal Type is Cohen Modal Type.

As the CMT occurs in both J1 and J2 (but not J), there is a precursor
haplogroup currently unidentified that is common to J1 and J2 and
descended from J that this modal type appears in. The majority of
descendent haplogroups will have mutated off the modal type. Since J1
and J2 spawn off it, and there are no other J lines, there's clearly a
genetic bottleneck at the time the CMT appears, at least within the J
haplogroup, and may extend back indefinitely into J but no further
back than that. There is nothing significant in any other haplogroup
at the time, so no planetary disaster need be considered, but clearly
there's a regional problem and it only affects these people, not other
populations in the region at the time.

I will leave it to others to bicker and squabble over how to interpret
the data, though doubtless those most inclined to bicker and squabble
will neither reference the data nor make use of it. Doubtless, too,
we'll see repeated arguments over what "modal" means, who knew what
when, and who defined what how, but that sort of trash is best left to
the experts on trash. Those interested in the science can reach their
own conclusions, WHETHER OR NOT THOSE AGREE WITH ANYONE ELSE'S VIEW.
There is no requirement to adhere to a specific viewpoint in science,
merely an obligation to use the best data available and a gentlemen's
agreement to respect when that data contradicts a cherished belief.

How does this impact history, which is written, not bred? Well, it's
quite fascinating. It turns out that technology and culture flow quite
independently of populations. Since culture includes traditions and
socially-maintained belief systems, and technology leaves the
artefacts, this can seriously screw with written histories and
archaeology in unpredictable ways. As a result, genetic archaeology
(studying the genetic markers of the DNA found in human bones and hair
from archaeological sites) is proving important in unscrambling the
omelette.
JTEM - 03 Jul 2009 07:21 GMT
> Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from
> the modal type means you are no longer of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to a haplogroup whose modal type is NOT of the
> Cohen Modal Type is Cohen Modal Type.

Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
talking about, and you have no business even attempting
it.

The whole point of the "Cohen Modal Type" is that the
vast majority of Jews -- oh, 90% or more -- don't match
it. In fact, most of those claiming to be "descendants
of Aaron" don't have it. But, PLENTY of non-Jews do!

So, what does it "prove"? Absolutely NOTHING. What
does it suggest? That the vast majority of Jews either
intermarried with their local non-Jewish populations, or
are descendant from latter day converts.
Matt Giwer - 03 Jul 2009 09:05 GMT
>> Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from
>> the modal type means you are no longer of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> to a haplogroup whose modal type is NOT of the
>> Cohen Modal Type is Cohen Modal Type.

> Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> intermarried with their local non-Jewish populations, or
> are descendant from latter day converts.

    "How and when the Jewish people were invented" is a bestseller in Israel.
Hardly surprising the ignorant sh.ts still have not heard of it.

Signature

The squattertowns will continue to expand until the terrorism ceases.
The provocation will continue until the response ceases.
The snakebites will continue until morale improves.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4149
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8
Fri Jul  3 04:03:17 EDT 2009

igor - 06 Jul 2009 18:46 GMT
> > Now, remember boys and girls, displacement from
> > the modal type means you are no longer of the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> intermarried with their local non-Jewish populations, or
> are descendant from latter day converts.

No, your simple mind cant understand the extent of the issue.
Canaanites or Phoenicians as Greeks used to call them constitute a
large portion of Jewish etnos and so do many Europeans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
JTEM - 06 Jul 2009 20:10 GMT
> > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> No,

Yes.

Idiot.
igor - 06 Jul 2009 21:10 GMT
> > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Idiot.

Bleh.
imipak - 06 Jul 2009 23:26 GMT
> > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Bleh.

You will have noticed, of course, that my original post on this thread
made no mention of Jews (it solely discussed the concepts of
haplogroups, modal types, what they were and how they could be dated),
but did predict trolling from JTEM and Matt. And, guess what! Mind
you, it was a safe bet they'd never actually READ the post. For
starters, they can't read. For another, they're much too interested in
bashing to actually discuss anything.

Sure, I referred to the Cohen Modal Type. I also referred to the R
haplogroup and the modal type for that. In neither case did I describe
any ethic, racial or religious group to those modal types. This was
something Matt and JTEM added all on their own, with no outside help.
Which goes to show one thing - they're obsessive as hell. Instead of a
rational debate about what might be meant by the genetics, the Two
Trolls Of SHA were much too busy tilting at windmills.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 00:42 GMT
> > > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> rational debate about what might be meant by the genetics, the Two
> Trolls Of SHA were much too busy tilting at windmills.

It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life. He repeats
same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much
evidence presented refuting his every single claim,  its boring, come
on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you?
JTEM is lacking excitement in his personal life so he looks for it on
Usenet  by contradicting everyone about everything, this way he gets
attention, he is a clown.
I learned quite a few things form other posters replying to them, so
they do have their purpose on SHA.
JTEM - 07 Jul 2009 02:05 GMT
> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core.

People use the word "Duh" around you a lot, don't
they?

I mean, an anti-Jewish Nazi? Really? Ya think?
igor - 07 Jul 2009 02:32 GMT
> > It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core.
>
> People use the word "Duh" around you a lot, don't
> they?

Yes, actually its "Da", means "Yes" in Russian.

> I mean, an anti-Jewish Nazi? Really? Ya think?

Nazi? I thought he was a disgruntled, overweight  senior citizen
living in a trailer park.....
Matt Giwer - 07 Jul 2009 12:37 GMT
>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core.
>
> People use the word "Duh" around you a lot, don't
> they?
>
> I mean, an anti-Jewish Nazi? Really? Ya think?

    You were invited to present specific examples and you did not. Why not?

Signature

The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to
a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious
tradition. We have no idea who started it nor when nor why.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4166
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/nizgas3.html a4
Tue Jul  7 07:36:23 EDT 2009

Matt Giwer - 07 Jul 2009 12:36 GMT
> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.

    You are invited to present all the specific examples you have. As you have
none, attacking the messenger is used instead of dealing with the message.

> He repeats
> same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much
> evidence presented refuting his every single claim,  its boring,

    igor arrived only a few months ago. How could igor know? igor like hump?

> come
> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I learned quite a few things form other posters replying to them, so
> they do have their purpose on SHA.

    Which you bible thumpers do not as the bible is not history.

Signature

The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to
a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious
tradition with no known source, nor age, nor authenticity.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4160
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Tue Jul  7 07:33:22 EDT 2009

igor - 07 Jul 2009 19:05 GMT
> > It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
> > jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
>
>         You are invited to present all the specific examples you have. As you have
> none, attacking the messenger is used instead of dealing with the message.

Your countless posts speak for them selfs, but you know that.

> > He repeats
> > same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much
> > evidence presented refuting his every single claim,  its boring,
>
>         igor arrived only a few months ago. How could igor know? igor like hump?

Another evidence of Matt's stupidity.

> > come
> > on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>         Which you bible thumpers do not as the bible is not history.

You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any
topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.

> --
> The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12
> Tue Jul  7 07:33:22 EDT 2009
imipak - 07 Jul 2009 20:28 GMT
> You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any
> topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.

"Contribute" is a bit of a stretch with anything Matt writes. At the
moment, he's drowned out two threads on ancient weapons and armour,
merely because he thinks it's cool to stop others talking about what
they want to discuss.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 21:36 GMT
> > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any
> > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> merely because he thinks it's cool to stop others talking about what
> they want to discuss.

You are correct, narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination is not
contribution.
imipak - 07 Jul 2009 21:51 GMT
> > > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any
> > > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You are correct, narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination is not
> contribution.

Very true. But now you come to mention it, we may need to look closer
at the "narrow-minded". Let's look at the threads on chainmail and
longbows. He defines what he considers to be ancient history. Ok, I
can live with obnoxious twerps being, well, obnoxious twerps. It
happens. So I show that both chainmail and longbows cover the entire
period he has defined, and a little more besides on either side.
"Aha!" says he. "It doesn't matter if it's ancient history, if it's -
also- prehistory AND medieval. If it exists in any time in addition to
ancient history, it HAS to be that something else, particularly if
someone I don't like is posting on the subject. Hell, if it's posted
by someone I don't like, then it can never be ancient history, no
matter what."

This isn't being "narrow-minded", as even those things that meet his
narrow definition are "failed" by him. I guess it could be considered
bias and discrimination, but I think we need to add "xenophobia" (fear
of the different) and "sociopath" (hatred of society and all things
social) to the list.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 22:18 GMT
> > > > You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any
> > > > topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> of the different) and "sociopath" (hatred of society and all things
> social) to the list.

Agree, I also suspect personal reasons for his hatred of Jews and his
perverted disposition, perhaps a Jewish ex who trounced him morally
and financially. One thing is for sure: he is a very sick man.
Matt Giwer - 08 Jul 2009 03:12 GMT
>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
>>         You are invited to present all the specific examples you have. As you have
>> none, attacking the messenger is used instead of dealing with the message..

> Your countless posts speak for them selfs, but you know that.

    No examples. Examples were not expected.

>>> He repeats
>>> same bullshit over and over again for years, no matter how much
>>> evidence presented refuting his every single claim,  its boring,
>>         igor arrived only a few months ago. How could igor know? igor like hump?

> Another evidence of Matt's stupidity.

    Hump was here a few years ago. That you?

>>> come
>>> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>> they do have their purpose on SHA.
>>         Which you bible thumpers do not as the bible is not history.

> You are the bible thumper here, have you ever contribute to any any
> topic outside of jews and bible? Dont think so.

    The bible is NOT history. I have only responded to crap posts about the bible
and Jews.

Signature

The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to
a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious
tradition. We have no idea who started it nor when nor why.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4166
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Tue Jul  7 22:10:06 EDT 2009

igor - 08 Jul 2009 06:02 GMT
> >>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
> >>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>         Hump was here a few years ago. That you?

You must be completely flipped, what are you talking about? If you are
you asking if I was on this group as hump a few years ago? No.
My girlfriend found your old posts on internet somehow, from years
ago, you were really out of line there, you became a lot mellower, I
bet your testosterone levels are lot lower now....LOL

> >>> come
> >>> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you?
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12
> Tue Jul  7 22:10:06 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer - 08 Jul 2009 09:49 GMT
>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> ago, you were really out of line there, you became a lot mellower, I
> bet your testosterone levels are lot lower now....LOL

    I am talking about the fact that you have no examples to support your
mindless assertion.

>>>>> come
>>>>> on Matt, come up with something interesting for a change, will you?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12
>> Tue Jul  7 22:10:06 EDT 2009

Signature

When Israel talks about settlers it it talking about criminal squatters.
    -- The Iron Webmater, 4162
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Wed Jul  8 04:48:08 EDT 2009

igor - 08 Jul 2009 23:19 GMT
> >>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
> >>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12
> Wed Jul  8 04:48:08 EDT 2009

Statements like "criminal squatters" and "dead Zionists" do not help
the Palestinian crisis, au contraire, you and people like you are the
cause of it.
You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics
(politics are definitely outside of this groups charter). how do you
think denying holocaust and coming up with the idea for newly designed
religion for some Bedouin Arabs will help the Palestinian cause? Why
would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis???
Matt Giwer - 10 Jul 2009 16:08 GMT
>>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
>>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>>         I am talking about the fact that you have no examples to support your
>> mindless assertion.
...
> Statements like "criminal squatters" and "dead Zionists" do not help
> the Palestinian crisis, au contraire, you and people like you are the
> cause of it.

    Transferring a country's population into land under military occupation has
been a crime since Nuremberg when people were hanged for doing it at
Nuremberg. Obviously they are criminals.

    Ever since Jabotinsky, the openly stated goal of Zionism has been to expel
the Palestinians by force and steal their property. That is not a secrect.
Dead Zionists are no longer able to murder and steal in accordance with their
ideology.

    I have stated facts. The truth cannot be antisemitic.

> You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics
> (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter).

    They are only sigs, dumbshit.

> how do you think denying holocaust

    Everything I have ever said about the jewish holocaust thing has been
strictly in accordance with the available physical evidence. You are invited
to produce anything I have in my sigs which is not.

> and coming up with the idea for newly designed
> religion for some Bedouin Arabs

    I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

> will help the Palestinian cause? Why
> would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis???

    A neo-nazi is no more than a person whom Jews do not like.

    If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to
present it.

    Remain silent and let people think you are a idiot. Reply and remove all doubt.

Signature

Zionism is a political cult dedicated to murdering Palestinians
and stealing their property.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4165
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/ a11
Fri Jul 10 10:59:02 EDT 2009

igor - 10 Jul 2009 18:01 GMT
> >>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
> >>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
>         I have stated facts. The truth cannot be antisemitic.

So kill all Zionists, thats your solution to the Palestinian crisis???
Would you suggest building concentration camps with furnaces somewhere
around west bank or gaza?
Jabotinsky does not represent millions of civilians in Israel, he is
an extreme a.shole as you are. Never heard of him.

> > You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics
> > (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter).
>
>         They are only sigs, dumbshit.

Please spear me the evidence of your hatred.

> > how do you think denying holocaust
>
>         Everything I have ever said about the jewish holocaust thing has been
> strictly in accordance with the available physical evidence. You are invited
> to produce anything I have in my sigs which is not.

Many posters furnished mountains of evidence for you, why do you need
more?

> > and coming up with the idea for newly designed
> > religion for some Bedouin Arabs
>
>         I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

Yes you do. But you know that.

> > will help the Palestinian cause? Why
> > would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis???
>
>         A neo-nazi is no more than a person whom Jews do not like.

Not just Jews, but you know that.

>         If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to
> present it.
>
>         Remain silent and let people think you are a idiot. Reply and remove all doubt.

Why would xenophobe like yourself even care about Palestinian cause?
Because they are in conflict with Jews???

> --
> Zionism is a political cult dedicated to murdering Palestinians
> and stealing their property.
>         -- The Iron Webmaster, 4165
>  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/a11
> Fri Jul 10 10:59:02 EDT 2009
igor - 10 Jul 2009 20:00 GMT
> > >>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
> > >>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Jabotinsky does not represent millions of civilians in Israel, he is
> an extreme a.shole as you are. Never heard of him.

And even if he said that as you claim, he never encouraged Jews to
kill Palestinians, so comparing him to you is unjust.

> > > You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics
> > > (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter).
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Not just Jews, but you know that.

Go to any public place in Minsk and announce that you are a Nazi,
Aryan  looking dudes (according to Nazi definition, which is
completely absurd)  will literally tear you a new one.....

> >         If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to
> > present it.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/a11
> > Fri Jul 10 10:59:02 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer - 11 Jul 2009 10:36 GMT
...
> Go to any public place in Minsk and announce that you are a Nazi,
> Aryan  looking dudes (according to Nazi definition, which is
> completely absurd)  will literally tear you a new one.....

    In just the winter the NSDAP formed the government of Germany, the communists
murdered more people than the most the Nazis are accused of killing.
Communists have no room to complain.

Signature

The nature of the Old Testament from a history of the Jewish people down to
a distorted story of their history has never been more than a religious
tradition with no known source, nor age, nor authenticity.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4160
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Sat Jul 11 05:33:34 EDT 2009

Matt Giwer - 11 Jul 2009 10:46 GMT
...
> And even if he said that as you claim, he never encouraged Jews to
> kill Palestinians, so comparing him to you is unjust.

    Not only did he encourage Jews to murder Palestinians he formed a terrorist
organization and was finally arrested for leading an armed march to the
so-called temple mount.

    Jews were the first to introduce terror bombing to Palestine. They deserve a
mention in Guinness for inventing the car bomb. Jabotinsky's military
background was a major contributor to it.

    You can probably find his The Iron Wall on the web. Give it a read.

Signature

Zionism is a political cult dedicated to murdering Palestinians
and stealing their property.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4165
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a3
Sat Jul 11 05:36:04 EDT 2009

Matt Giwer - 11 Jul 2009 10:32 GMT
>>>>>>>>> It is obvious that Matt is anti-jewish to the core. I bet he blames
>>>>>>>>> jews for everything that went wrong in his personal life.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> ideology.
>>         I have stated facts. The truth cannot be antisemitic.

> So kill all Zionists, thats your solution to the Palestinian crisis???

    I did not say that.

> Would you suggest building concentration camps with furnaces somewhere
> around west bank or gaza?

    Nor did I say that.

    Send them back where they came from is the most obvious approach.

> Jabotinsky does not represent millions of civilians in Israel, he is
> an extreme a.shole as you are. Never heard of him.

    It does not matter what he represents in general. The Likud party of
Netanyahu does specifically state it is the successor of Jabotinsky's
revisionist movement.

    Nor is it surprising that someone has ignorant as you has never heard of him.

    However, no one passed early adolescence could possibly believe taking over
Palestine could be accomplished without violence. The purpose has always been
theft. Just a few years ago the Sassoon report prepared for the government of
Israel documented hundreds of cases of existing and on-going land theft in the
West Bank. The government did nothing to stop it. The government in fact
encourages and supports it. The government represents a self-declared jewish
state. Therefore the government has declared jews are thieves.

    You should learn what you are talking about some day. It likely would hurt
you but the pain would do you some good.

>>> You are trying to commingle ancient history with modern day politics
>>> (politics are definitely outside of this groups charter).
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> strictly in accordance with the available physical evidence. You are invited
>> to produce anything I have in my sigs which is not.

> Many posters furnished mountains of evidence for you, why do you need
> more?

    None of it has constituted evidence in the batter of gas chambers or mass
extermination which is all that matters. And there is significant evidence to
the contrary mainly from impeccably jewish sources.

    If you had ever considered the matter skeptically, which you never have, you
would be able to tell me what particular physical evidence convinced you when
you believed none of it. But you have always believed. You are not rational.

>>> and coming up with the idea for newly designed
>>> religion for some Bedouin Arabs
>>         I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain..

> Yes you do. But you know that.

    If you cannot explain just say so.

>>> will help the Palestinian cause? Why
>>> would Palestinians want to have anything in common with Neo Nazis???
>>         A neo-nazi is no more than a person whom Jews do not like..
>
> Not just Jews, but you know that.

    Jews and communists are the only ones who get all emotional about them.
Monarchists used to get just as emotional about Napoleon's sympathizers.  But
there was a definition for those of Napoleon. There is no functional
definition for these imagined neo-nazis.

    Please define if you believe otherwise AND show how it relates to the NSDAP.
Antisemitism was a trivial afterthought for the NSDAP so don't waste your time
going into that.

>>         If you have a rational definition which follows from the name you are free to
>> present it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Why would xenophobe like yourself even care about Palestinian cause?
> Because they are in conflict with Jews???

    The US is paying for it. My tax dollars, my interest.

    As to Israel in general take a look at www.ussliberty.org for details.  There
is a very good reason why Israel has declined all offers by the US Navy to
participate in live fire exercises. Our Navy has an unfortunate accident
scheduled.

Signature

The Jews first appear in history in 67 BC.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4155
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a3
Sat Jul 11 04:59:32 EDT 2009

JTEM - 13 Jul 2009 13:39 GMT
> You are trying to commingle ancient history with
> modern day politics (politics are definitely outside
> of this groups charter).

<Cough>  and religion <Cough>  <Cough>
imipak - 13 Jul 2009 17:54 GMT
> > You are trying to commingle ancient history with
> > modern day politics (politics are definitely outside
> > of this groups charter).
>
> <Cough>  and religion <Cough>  <Cough>

If religion was outside the charter, why do you post your religious
beliefs here? You don't see me preaching here, do you?
Matt Giwer - 13 Jul 2009 21:10 GMT
>>> You are trying to commingle ancient history with
>>> modern day politics (politics are definitely outside
>>> of this groups charter).
>> <Cough>  and religion <Cough>  <Cough>

> If religion was outside the charter, why do you post your religious
> beliefs here? You don't see me preaching here, do you?

    The issue is of course that the bible contains no known or recognizable
history and therefore discussion of it as history is off topic. The subject is
history not stories invented by unknown people for unknown purposes.

Signature

Only believvers in god would kill believers in god.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4168
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Mon Jul 13 16:08:49 EDT 2009

imipak - 14 Jul 2009 00:24 GMT
> >>> You are trying to commingle ancient history with
> >>> modern day politics (politics are definitely outside
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> history and therefore discussion of it as history is off topic. The subject is
> history not stories invented by unknown people for unknown purposes.

That may very well be the case, but it doesn't alter the fact that you
and JTEM introduce Biblical text into this group, whereas I do not.
Thus, if it is off-charter, why are you doing so? Explain this to me.
JTEM - 07 Jul 2009 02:01 GMT
> You will have noticed, of course, that my original
> post on this thread made no mention of Jews

You babbled about the "Cohen Modal Type," AGAIN,
despite the fact that you haven't a frigging clue.

That's like talking about the Vatican or the Pope and
claiming you never said anything about Catholics.

Loser.
imipak - 08 Jul 2009 21:54 GMT
> > You will have noticed, of course, that my original
> > post on this thread made no mention of Jews
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> That's like talking about the Vatican or the Pope and
> claiming you never said anything about Catholics.

The Cohen Modal Type is a specific modal type that occurs in many J1
and some J2 individuals. It is a genetic trait, not a religious one.
The mutation rates for markers are given below. Now, please state what
genetics has to do with religion or frak off.

472    0.00001
578    0.00008
426    0.00009
454    0.00016
455    0.00016
436    0.00018
641    0.00018
490    0.00019
450    0.0002
388    0.00022
594    0.00029
640    0.00034
531    0.00037
492    0.00042
617    0.00042
392    0.00052
568    0.00053
590    0.00054
438    0.00055
537    0.00057
393    0.00076
565    0.00087
487    0.00097
437    0.00099
JTEM - 09 Jul 2009 04:19 GMT
> > > You will have noticed, of course, that my original
> > > post on this thread made no mention of Jews
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> The Cohen Modal Type is

You haven't the faintest idea what it is, despite being told
on several occasions.
imipak - 09 Jul 2009 04:36 GMT
> > > > You will have noticed, of course, that my original
> > > > post on this thread made no mention of Jews
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You haven't the faintest idea what it is, despite being told
> on several occasions.

First, no, you haven't "told me what it is". Second, unless you're
willing to use the data, your claims are worthless.
JTEM - 09 Jul 2009 11:35 GMT
> First,

No, let's not play. You're an ignorant little piss whore.
imipak - 09 Jul 2009 17:12 GMT
> > First,
>
> No, let's not play.

So you can't make your case with the data - perhaps you can't even
understand it. It's ok, you don't have to admit defeat publicly, we
all know what you mean.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 01:57 GMT
> So you can't make your case with the data

That was your job, and you f.cked it up. YOU
raised the Cohen Modal Type, YOU were the
one who mistakenly believed he had a point, it
was up to YOU to make a case.

You couldn't, and it's over.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 03:31 GMT
> > So you can't make your case with the data
>
> That was your job, and you f.cked it up. YOU

It is for the other side to falsify a hypothesis, where a hypothesis
has been made.

> raised the Cohen Modal Type, YOU were the
> one who mistakenly believed he had a point, it
> was up to YOU to make a case.

And what point do you imagine I was making? Go back to the start of
this thread and quote me SPECIFICALLY where you imagine this point was
made. And, no, referencing the modal type is not enough, unless you
can prove it is somehow different from referencing the R haplogroup.

Show me the hypothesis. I dare you.

> You couldn't, and it's over.

Sure it's over. You can't do diddly-squat with the data, you can't
even understand what it says, so you're running away and sulking the
way you always do. You're as bad as Aggy. Always assuming you're not
Aggy, and given you act like him, it's getting hard to imagine you're
not.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 03:33 GMT
> It is for the other side to falsify a hypothesis,

Okay, let's point out a little something here:

You don't know what you're talking about. You don't
understand the material. You have yet to grasp what
the "Cohen Modal Type" is, and you certainly are in
no position to offer ideas based on it.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 07:28 GMT
> > It is for the other side to falsify a hypothesis,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the "Cohen Modal Type" is, and you certainly are in
> no position to offer ideas based on it.

Your lack of reference to the data certainly tells me that you don't
understand the material, and since I offered no ideas based on it, I
would conclude that your lack of reading skills is astonishing only in
their total absence.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 10:40 GMT
> Your lack of reference to the data

My "reference to the data" is how you introduced it
twice, failing to comprehend it either time. Your first
attempt was by far the sadder of the two:

: If the Cohen Modal Type is from 1,000 BC, and Jews exhibit
: Cohen Modal Type more than anyone else in the Middle
: East, the 8th century AD is of no importance. You must
: explain what was going on1,000 BC for this one population
: to exhibit this characteristic and no other.

There. You don't know what the f.ck you're talking about.
Ordinarily that would be okay, but not in the present
circumstances where you won't shut up about it, AND
you carry on as if you've got great knowledge.

HINT:  A minority of a minority of Jews exhibit it.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 17:41 GMT
> > Your lack of reference to the data
>
> My "reference to the data" is how you introduced it
> twice, failing to comprehend it either time. Your first
> attempt was by far the sadder of the two:

Ok, let's take a look at this "reference".

> : If the Cohen Modal Type is from 1,000 BC, and Jews exhibit
> : Cohen Modal Type more than anyone else in the Middle
> : East, the 8th century AD is of no importance. You must
> : explain what was going on1,000 BC for this one population
> : to exhibit this characteristic and no other.

An excellent quote, but from another thread entirely and therefore not
applicable to this thread. There is no link between that thread and
this.

Even if it were, this does not define the Cohen Modal Type, as you
claim. It doesn't even define Jews. It defines only that there is a
mutation event at 1,000 BC and concludes from this that you cannot
have a founding father for this genetic line at 800 AD. Well, unless
you now claim they had time travel back then.

However, this is not data. This is discussion. Show me where you
reference the data. C'mon, I've posted the mutation rates and the J
tree, you aught to be able to do something with that. No? Then it is
because you do not understand the data and don't want me to rip you a
new one by showing just how ignorant you are on the subject.

> There. You don't know what the f.ck you're talking about.
> Ordinarily that would be okay, but not in the present
> circumstances where you won't shut up about it, AND
> you carry on as if you've got great knowledge.

Well, in truth, I am actually highly knowledgeable. At least, relative
to you. This is no great feat, though. It requires two skills -
"reading" (something you show yourself incapable of) and "recognizing
authoritative work" (something else you show yourself incapable of). I
would not claim the level of expertise of, say, Ken Nordtvedt, John
Chandler or Stephen Oppenheimer, but then I'm looking at a couple of
very shallow, well-documented problems. They work at a depth far
beyond my capacity and have made major discoveries in the field of
historical genetics. My "great knowledge", as you call it, is really
pretty much the standard fare for anyone interested in the topic of
genetics in archaeology or genealogy.

That aside, this thread has no connection to the other. Your linkage
is pure, unadulterated fantasy. No great surprise there, most of your
trolls are based on your own delusions and not on outside evidence.
Even had there been a link, two threads is hardly excessive.

You still haven't explained how this relates to the R haplotype. Why
have you failed to mention that I've talked about that far more than I
have about Cohen? (An equal amount in both threads on Cohen, but then
extensively in several threads dealing with the origins of the
British.) Where have you discussed R? You ignore it because
recognizing that R forms the dominant part of my discussions on
genetics in archaeology invalidates your paranoid delusions and shows
you up to be the fool you are.
JTEM - 10 Jul 2009 18:25 GMT
> Ok, let's take a look at this "reference".
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> An excellent quote, but from another thread entirely and
> therefore not applicable to this thread.

   ....except that it demonstrates quite nicely that you haven't
a clue what the "Cohen Modal Type" is.

> Even if it were, this does not define the Cohen Modal Type,

It is exactly what you were speaking about.

> It defines only that there is a mutation event at 1,000 BC
> and concludes from this that you cannot have a founding
> father for this genetic line at 800 AD.

Read it again, nimrod. The "This characteristic" is the
Cohen Modal Type.

Oh; Jews don't express it more than anyone else in the
middle east. In fact, they express it a great deal less.

> Show me where you reference the data.

This is the "Data." It establishes beyond a doubt that
#1 you haven't the faintest clue and #2 you're dishonest
to the core, preferring to lie your a.s off than admit your
errors.

Both established facts expressly rule out a conversation
with you on the subject.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 20:15 GMT
> > Ok, let's take a look at this "reference".
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>     ....except that it demonstrates quite nicely that you haven't
> a clue what the "Cohen Modal Type" is.

How, since I did not define it? I merely specified when it was from,
something you have continually refused to explain or examine. Instead,
you rave on about something I never addressed.

> > Even if it were, this does not define the Cohen Modal Type,
>
> It is exactly what you were speaking about.

No it is not. I was speaking about WHEN the Cohen Modal Type appears.
I did not define it.

> > It defines only that there is a mutation event at 1,000 BC
> > and concludes from this that you cannot have a founding
> > father for this genetic line at 800 AD.
>
> Read it again, nimrod. The "This characteristic" is the
> Cohen Modal Type.

Which is undefined in the quote you give. All that is specified is
WHEN the Cohen Modal Type appears, along with a request for you to
explain why this "when" does not and cannot be reconciled with your
claims. (If there was a bottleneck in the 5th century AD, TMRCA would
show a 5th century date. It shows a 1000 BC date. I asked you to
explain why. You have never answered this question.)

> Oh; Jews don't express it more than anyone else in the
> middle east. In fact, they express it a great deal less.

Show me the data. Show me numbers. Show me that you've any grasp of
the subject whatsoever. Repeating your claims is NOT good enough.
Repeating someone else's claims is also NOT good enough. I want data.
Hard data. Something you have refused to give.

> > Show me where you reference the data.
>
> This is the "Data." It establishes beyond a doubt that
> #1 you haven't the faintest clue and #2 you're dishonest
> to the core, preferring to lie your a.s off than admit your
> errors.

a) You making claims, which I've shown are based on a fatally-flawed
reading of what I posted, is not data. It's an opinion. A rather
warped, degenerate opinion, true, but still an opinion.
b) Your quote contains no data. Your quote is a conclusion.
Conclusions are not data. Show me the data.
c) I've admitted when I've been wrong plenty of times, falsifying #2.
You have never admitted when you've been wrong, showing #2 is more
honestly applied to you.

> Both established facts expressly rule out a conversation
> with you on the subject.

#1 and #2 are not facts, they are opinions, based on false assumptions
and your need to find someone to hate. You make no effort to establish
them, so making it impossible for them to be "established" anything.

If they did indeed expressly "rule out a conversation", you would not
have posted this reply or any other, falsifying your claim as to what
these opinions rule out.

Clearly, you do not know what data is, what a fact is, or indeed what
a conversation is.
imipak - 10 Jul 2009 20:40 GMT
> You haven't the faintest idea what it is, despite being told
> on several occasions.

You still haven't shown these "several occasions" and you still
haven't shown via the hard data (alleles, marker values, mutation
rates, STRs and SNPs - these are data) that you have enough
understanding of the subject to offer any kind of qualified opinion on
what others do or do not know.

Go on. Show me the data. Prove you're not a witless, bumbling fool.
igor - 06 Jul 2009 21:43 GMT
> > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Idiot.

Practically every present day Spaniard has Jewish blood, after Judean
War, Roman slave market was so saturated with Jewish slaves, slave
prices collapsed, so I presume there is a lot of Jewish blood in
present day Italians also.
imipak - 06 Jul 2009 23:32 GMT
> > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> prices collapsed, so I presume there is a lot of Jewish blood in
> present day Italians also.

Maybe that's true for the population as a whole, I'm not going to
doubt you on it, but it would be hard to prove in any individual case.
yDNA only tests absolute male lineage, mtDNA only tests absolute
female lineage, and xDNA is only useful for identifying that you are
connected to a group with such-and-such a mutation, it doesn't tell
you the nature of that relationship. Full genome studies might be
helpful, but they're too rare and too expensive right now.

What bothers me the most, though, is that some of the really dramatic
implications of the J* haplogroup study are being ignored on this list.
igor - 07 Jul 2009 00:54 GMT
> > > > > Listen, you f.cking idiot, you have no idea what you're
> > > > > talking about, and you have no business even attempting
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> you the nature of that relationship. Full genome studies might be
> helpful, but they're too rare and too expensive right now.

I am shooting from the hip here, we all know about the implications of
inquisition period in Spain, Phoenician colonies around Medetirrenian
and Jewish war.

> What bothers me the most, though, is that some of the really dramatic
> implications of the J* haplogroup study are being ignored on this list.

What do you mean?
 
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