Just for fun... lost ancient texts
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Jona Lendering - 11 Jun 2004 17:50 GMT In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. Loosing an epic that Virgil wanted to be destroyed anyhow and gaining, for example, the lost parts of Livy seems like a fair deal.
So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which one would you prefer?
My personal favorites: *Physical defects of men* and *Lives of famous prostitutes*, both by Suetonius.
Anyone else?
Jona
 Signature Jona Lendering http://www.livius.org
Steel Dragon - 11 Jun 2004 17:56 GMT > So here's my question to you: if you could get back > a lost text, which one would you prefer? The version of the Zhou Yi actually used by [the soothsayer team of?] Zhou Kong, the first ruler of this dynasty (sigh...)
S. D.
Jim Webster - 11 Jun 2004 17:59 GMT > In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice > the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My personal favorites: *Physical defects of men* and *Lives of famous > prostitutes*, both by Suetonius. The full Trogus, before Justin got his hands on it would be good. Also there were some histories written by Greeks who lived in the east, Trogus is thought to have had access to them but they are generally lost, in some cases even the names of the authors haven't survived. I'd like any of the above (or even the lost bits of Polybius)
no need to deliver, I'll drop round to collect :-))
Jim Webster
> Anyone else? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Jona Lendering > http://www.livius.org Martin Edwards - 11 Jun 2004 18:34 GMT Porphyry.
******Martin Edwards.******
Come on! Nobody's going to ride that lousy freeway when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.
Eddy Valiant.
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955/
Agamemnon - 11 Jun 2004 18:12 GMT > In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice > the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which > one would you prefer? The missing parts of the Library of Diodorus uncoensored and all of the works of Hesiod.
> My personal favorites: *Physical defects of men* and *Lives of famous > prostitutes*, both by Suetonius. > > Anyone else? > > Jona R.Schenck - 15 Jun 2004 02:10 GMT "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> on 11 Jun 2004 posted
>> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice >> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The missing parts of the Library of Diodorus uncoensored and all of the > works of Hesiod. 'sall?
what about homer's authbiography?...
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R.Schenck - 17 Jun 2004 02:49 GMT "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> on 11 Jun 2004 posted
>> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice >> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The missing parts of the Library of Diodorus uncoensored and all of the > works of Hesiod. how about the cassete version "Library of Diodorus: too hot for TV" and "Hesiod: Nymphs gone Wild"?
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Frank Gay - 11 Jun 2004 19:26 GMT >From: Jona Lendering
>In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice >the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Jona Ammianus Marcellinus -- Res Gestae Books 1-13
Frank
MarianneLuban - 12 Jun 2004 05:21 GMT The original history of Egypt of Manetho--the entire three books-- before anyone else had a chance to mess with it. "THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again! http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
R.Schenck - 15 Jun 2004 02:09 GMT Jona Lendering <ADSL294196@tiscali.nl> on 11 Jun 2004 posted
> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly > sacrifice the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Jona the etruscan history that claudius was working on would be interesting. It would, however, suck, if it was just a lot of clap trap written by a dilletante yammering idiot.
An epic from whoever was living in the indus valley around the time of harrapan would be interesting, of course that would be a work that wasn't known, and I am only assuming there could be something they wrote.
Come to think of it, almost anything from socrates himself would be wonderful.
Bobby D. Bryant - 15 Jun 2004 07:22 GMT > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which > one would you prefer? Any of the (hypothetical?) missing works in the Trojan cycle.
 Signature Bobby Bryant Austin, Texas
Alan McIntire - 23 Jun 2004 02:16 GMT > > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which > > one would you prefer? > > Any of the (hypothetical?) missing works in the Trojan cycle. I suspect that most of the missing material was incorporated into The Illiad and Odyssy. The balance can be obtained from plays like "Ajax".- A. McIntire
Chris Camfield - 23 Jun 2004 06:32 GMT >> > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which >> > one would you prefer? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I suspect that most of the missing material was incorporated into >The Illiad and Odyssy. Why would you think that? The Iliad covers a very short period of the war, and there is a lot of material that, so far as I know, neither poem covers. CERTAINLY there are a lot of events in the war which the missing works would have covered in more detail.
>The balance can be obtained from plays like >"Ajax".- A. McIntire Some of it can, but not all of it, and the playwrights gave their own take to traditional material.
Chris
Alan McIntire - 29 Jun 2004 00:54 GMT > >> > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which > >> > one would you prefer? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Why would you think that? The Iliad covers a very short period of the war, and > there is a lot of material that, so far as I know, neither poem covers. Agamemnon gave a sacrafice to the gods in Book II, asking for victory. Such a sacrafice would have been made at the BEGINNING of the war, not after 9 years. This sacrafice story was edited in from a prior account of the start of the war.
From my translation by Richard Lattimore, Book II, line 394 ff describes the Argives heading for their ships. "...the Argives shouted aloud, as surf crashing against a sheerness, driven by the south wind descending, some cliff out-jutting, left never alone by the waves from all the winds that blow, as they rise from one place and another."
The description would more aptly describe ships landing, and the Achaeans pouring out of their ships. I'm sure the lines originally referred to just such a situation, and were edited somewhat poorly into this situation.
When the Achaeans assemble for battle, a catalogue of ships is given. This catalogue would have referred to the assembly at the BEGINNING of the war, not the 9th year. In Book II, line 792 and following, Polites runs into Troy to announce that the Achaeans are attacking. My translation reads, starting from line 798.. "In my time I have gone into many battles among men, Yet never have I seen a host like this, not one so numerous"
The Achaeans have suffered 9 years of casualties, and a recent plague; They couldn't be anywhere as numerous as they were at the start of the war. The lines obviously referred to the initial attack 10 years ago, and were edited into the "Illiad".
In Book III a duel is arranged between Menelaos and Alexandros. Such a duel would have been fought at the BEGINNING of the war in the original story, not after 9 years... another example of editing from an earlier story.
Finally, the Achaeans construct a defensive wall to protect their camp from the Trojans. As Thycydides said in his History, such a defensive wall would have been built early in the war, not after 9 years.. Another example of editing in stories from different periods of the war.
> CERTAINLY there are a lot of events in the war which the missing works would > have covered in more detail. Some additional details can be gotten from "The War at Troy", by Quintus of Smyrna, which in general is pretty dry reading, mostly such-and-such a Trojan hero goes out and kills a bunch of Achaeans, all described by name, until Mr Such-and-Such runs into Achilles and gets killed. "The Library of Greek Mythology", by Apollodorus, another dry text, gives an additional summary of the epic - A. McIntire
> >The balance can be obtained from plays like > >"Ajax".- A. McIntire [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Chris Chris Camfield - 29 Jun 2004 15:51 GMT You have a good point about compression, Alan. On the other hand, though, there are a lot of episodes that we know existed and took place after the death of Hector which are not in full detail in the Iliad or the Odyssey. I'm not sure I'd say that *most* details have been compressed into the poems, though.
> Some additional details can be gotten from "The War at Troy", by >Quintus of Smyrna, which in general is pretty dry reading, mostly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"The Library of Greek Mythology", by Apollodorus, another dry text, >gives an additional summary of the epic - A. McIntire Yeeeees, I'm aware of this. It's what's recorded in these works which shows us what is missing from what remains from the actual epic cycle.
Katherine Tredwell - 15 Jun 2004 16:04 GMT > In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice > the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Jona Aristarchus of Samos' work on heliocentrism would answer a lot of questions for me. I would also like to have the works of Hipparchus, and Aristotle's allegedly readable writings.
I shall also chip in another vote for the Etruscan history.
Katherine Tredwell
Russell - 16 Jun 2004 21:19 GMT 1) The Torah before the Alexandrian conquest. 2) The religious tracts destroyed after the Council of Nicaea. 3) The entire Alexandrian Library before the minions of Caesar burnt it. 4) The entire library of Henry the Navigator before the English barbarians got to it (not ancient, but probably had some interesting texts).
> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice > the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Jona R.Schenck - 17 Jun 2004 02:48 GMT Russell <russell@mitre.org> on 16 Jun 2004 posted
> 1) The Torah before the Alexandrian conquest. > 2) The religious tracts destroyed after the Council of Nicaea. > 3) The entire Alexandrian Library before the minions of Caesar > burnt it. can i change my vote to the book the explains why it wasn't caesar that destroyed the library?
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Joe Bernstein - 27 Jun 2004 19:56 GMT
> So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which > one would you prefer? Just one?
Oh, sheesh. I usually focus on the comedian Eupolis (a competitor of Aristophanes whose <Demes> is the best-preserved example of Old Comedy not by Aristophanes, which is to say we have a hundred or so quotes from it). But to be honest, if I'm picking The One Lost Book to Recover, he's not good enough.
Sappho's collected works would be a good contender.
An epic by one of the lost masters (Panyassis of Crete, say) would be cool. Antimachus's <Thebaid>, or the <Corinthiaka> by whoever it was... If I could cheat and say "My lost work is the entire Epic Cycle", I'd probably go for that, but I bet I couldn't.
There's been a bunch of people plumping for histories, so I'm mildly surprised nobody's mentioned Hecataeus of, um, Miletus? yet. The guy Herodotus condemned in an early example of "make your reputation by savaging your predecessor".
One of King Juba of Mauritania's history books would fall into a similar category to the suggestions of Claudius's Etruscan history. But as with Eupolis - just one, and spend it on this?
I suspect the One Book I would be happiest settling for is not even known to me. We don't even have *titles* of Phoenician and Philistine and Canaanite works, except for the strays from Ugarit. There are all kinds of places I could name - "I'd love to have a druidical history of Gaul", for example - but that's the one where I think there'd be highest odds of a really satisfactory book *existing* that could shed all kinds of light on a great unknown. (I mean, how likely do you think it is even that Gilgamesh had a court scribe to write his <Res Gestae>?) So if I were allowed to gamble by saying "OK, I'll restrict my choice to this area and period but you have to then tell me what I can choose among", I'd go for Iron Age Syria-Palestine.
Oh dear... what if I'd be better off going for Late Period Egypt?
On and on...
Joe Bernstein
 Signature Joe Bernstein, bookseller and writer joe@sfbooks.com <http://www.panix.com/~josephb/>
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