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Just for fun... lost ancient texts

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Jona Lendering - 11 Jun 2004 17:50 GMT
In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
Loosing an epic that Virgil wanted to be destroyed anyhow and gaining,
for example, the lost parts of Livy seems like a fair deal.

So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
one would you prefer?

My personal favorites: *Physical defects of men* and *Lives of famous
prostitutes*, both by Suetonius.

Anyone else?

Jona

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Jona Lendering
http://www.livius.org

Steel Dragon - 11 Jun 2004 17:56 GMT
> So here's my question to you: if you could get back
> a lost text, which one would you prefer?

The version of the Zhou Yi actually used by [the soothsayer team of?] Zhou
Kong, the first ruler of this dynasty (sigh...)

S. D.
Jim Webster - 11 Jun 2004 17:59 GMT
> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> My personal favorites: *Physical defects of men* and *Lives of famous
> prostitutes*, both by Suetonius.

The full Trogus, before Justin got his hands on it would be good. Also there
were some histories written by Greeks who lived in the east, Trogus is
thought to have had access to them but they are generally lost, in some
cases even the names of the authors haven't survived.
I'd like any of the above (or even the lost bits of Polybius)

no need to deliver, I'll drop round to collect :-))

Jim Webster

> Anyone else?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Jona Lendering
> http://www.livius.org
Martin Edwards - 11 Jun 2004 18:34 GMT
Porphyry.

******Martin Edwards.******    

Come on!  Nobody's going to ride that lousy freeway
when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.

Eddy Valiant.

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955/      

                                                   
Agamemnon - 11 Jun 2004 18:12 GMT
> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
> one would you prefer?

The missing parts of the Library of Diodorus uncoensored and all of the
works of Hesiod.

> My personal favorites: *Physical defects of men* and *Lives of famous
> prostitutes*, both by Suetonius.
>
> Anyone else?
>
> Jona
R.Schenck - 15 Jun 2004 02:10 GMT
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> on 11 Jun 2004 posted

>> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
>> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The missing parts of the Library of Diodorus uncoensored and all of the
> works of Hesiod.

'sall?

what about homer's authbiography?...

snip
R.Schenck - 17 Jun 2004 02:49 GMT
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> on 11 Jun 2004 posted

>> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
>> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The missing parts of the Library of Diodorus uncoensored and all of the
> works of Hesiod.

how about the cassete version "Library of Diodorus: too hot for TV" and
"Hesiod: Nymphs gone Wild"?

snip
Frank Gay - 11 Jun 2004 19:26 GMT
>From: Jona Lendering

>In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
>the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Jona

Ammianus Marcellinus -- Res Gestae Books 1-13

Frank
MarianneLuban - 12 Jun 2004 05:21 GMT
The original history of Egypt of Manetho--the entire three books-- before
anyone else had a chance to mess with it.
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
R.Schenck - 15 Jun 2004 02:09 GMT
Jona Lendering <ADSL294196@tiscali.nl> on 11 Jun 2004 posted

> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly
> sacrifice the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jona

the etruscan history that claudius was working on would be interesting.
It would, however, suck, if it was just a lot of clap trap written by a
dilletante yammering idiot.

An epic from whoever was living in the indus valley around the time of
harrapan would be interesting, of course that would be a work that
wasn't known, and I am only assuming there could be something they
wrote.  

Come to think of it, almost anything from socrates himself would be
wonderful.
Bobby D. Bryant - 15 Jun 2004 07:22 GMT
> So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
> one would you prefer?

Any of the (hypothetical?) missing works in the Trojan cycle.

Signature

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Alan McIntire - 23 Jun 2004 02:16 GMT
> > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
> > one would you prefer?
>
> Any of the (hypothetical?) missing works in the Trojan cycle.

 I suspect that most of the missing material was incorporated into
The Illiad and Odyssy.    The balance can be obtained from plays like
"Ajax".- A. McIntire
Chris Camfield - 23 Jun 2004 06:32 GMT
>> > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
>> > one would you prefer?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  I suspect that most of the missing material was incorporated into
>The Illiad and Odyssy.    

Why would you think that?  The Iliad covers a very short period of the war, and
there is a lot of material that, so far as I know, neither poem covers.
CERTAINLY there are a lot of events in the war which the missing works would
have covered in more detail.

>The balance can be obtained from plays like
>"Ajax".- A. McIntire

Some of it can, but not all of it, and the playwrights gave their own take to
traditional material.

    Chris
Alan McIntire - 29 Jun 2004 00:54 GMT
> >> > So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
> >> > one would you prefer?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Why would you think that?  The Iliad covers a very short period of the war, and
> there is a lot of material that, so far as I know, neither poem covers.
 Agamemnon gave a sacrafice to the gods in Book II, asking for
victory. Such a sacrafice would have been made at the BEGINNING of the
war, not after 9 years.  This sacrafice story was edited in from a
prior account of the start of the war.

From my translation by Richard Lattimore,  Book II,  line 394 ff
describes the Argives heading for their ships.
"...the Argives shouted aloud, as surf crashing against a sheerness,
driven by the south wind descending,
some cliff out-jutting, left never alone by the waves from
all the winds that blow, as they rise from one place and another."

The description would more aptly describe ships landing, and the
Achaeans pouring out of their ships.  I'm sure the lines originally
referred to just such a situation, and were edited somewhat poorly
into this situation.



 When the Achaeans assemble for battle, a catalogue of ships is
given.  This catalogue would have referred to the assembly at the
BEGINNING of the war, not the 9th year.
In Book II, line 792 and following, Polites runs into Troy to announce
that the Achaeans are attacking.  My translation reads, starting from
line 798..
"In my time I have gone into many battles among men,
Yet never have I seen a host like this, not one so numerous"

 The Achaeans have suffered 9 years of casualties, and a recent
plague;
They couldn't be anywhere as numerous as they were at the start of the
war.
The lines obviously referred to the initial attack 10 years ago, and
were edited into the "Illiad".

 In Book III a duel is arranged between Menelaos and Alexandros.  
Such a duel would have been fought at the BEGINNING of the war in the
original story, not after 9 years... another example of editing from
an earlier story.

 Finally, the Achaeans construct a defensive wall to protect their
camp from the Trojans.  As Thycydides said in his History, such a
defensive wall would have been built early in the war, not after 9
years.. Another example of editing in stories from different periods
of the war.

> CERTAINLY there are a lot of events in the war which the missing works would
> have covered in more detail.

 Some additional details can be gotten from "The War at Troy", by
Quintus of Smyrna, which in general is pretty dry reading, mostly
such-and-such a Trojan hero goes out and kills a bunch of Achaeans,
all described by name, until Mr Such-and-Such runs into Achilles and
gets killed.
"The Library of Greek Mythology", by Apollodorus, another dry text,
gives an additional summary of the epic - A. McIntire

> >The balance can be obtained from plays like
> >"Ajax".- A. McIntire
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>     Chris
Chris Camfield - 29 Jun 2004 15:51 GMT
You have a good point about compression, Alan.  On the other hand, though, there
are a lot of episodes that we know existed and took place after the death of
Hector which are not in full detail in the Iliad or the Odyssey.  I'm not sure
I'd say that *most* details have been compressed into the poems, though.

>  Some additional details can be gotten from "The War at Troy", by
>Quintus of Smyrna, which in general is pretty dry reading, mostly
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"The Library of Greek Mythology", by Apollodorus, another dry text,
>gives an additional summary of the epic - A. McIntire

Yeeeees, I'm aware of this.  It's what's recorded in these works which shows us
what is missing from what remains from the actual epic cycle.
Katherine Tredwell - 15 Jun 2004 16:04 GMT
> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Jona

Aristarchus of Samos' work on heliocentrism would answer a lot of
questions for me. I would also like to have the works of Hipparchus,
and Aristotle's allegedly readable writings.

I shall also chip in another vote for the Etruscan history.

Katherine Tredwell
Russell - 16 Jun 2004 21:19 GMT
1) The Torah before the Alexandrian conquest.
2) The religious tracts destroyed after the Council of Nicaea.
3) The entire Alexandrian Library before the minions of Caesar
burnt it.
4) The entire library of Henry the Navigator before the English
barbarians got to it (not ancient, but probably had some
interesting texts).

> In a message posted earlier today, I wrote that I would gladly sacrifice
> the entire *Aeneid* to get back another ancient text that is now lost.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Jona
R.Schenck - 17 Jun 2004 02:48 GMT
Russell <russell@mitre.org> on 16 Jun 2004 posted

> 1) The Torah before the Alexandrian conquest.
> 2) The religious tracts destroyed after the Council of Nicaea.
> 3) The entire Alexandrian Library before the minions of Caesar
> burnt it.

can i change my vote to the book the explains why it wasn't caesar that
destroyed the library?

snip
Joe Bernstein - 27 Jun 2004 19:56 GMT

> So here's my question to you: if you could get back a lost text, which
> one would you prefer?

Just one?

Oh, sheesh.  I usually focus on the comedian Eupolis (a competitor
of Aristophanes whose <Demes> is the best-preserved example of Old
Comedy not by Aristophanes, which is to say we have a hundred or so
quotes from it).  But to be honest, if I'm picking The One Lost Book
to Recover, he's not good enough.

Sappho's collected works would be a good contender.

An epic by one of the lost masters (Panyassis of Crete, say) would
be cool.  Antimachus's <Thebaid>, or the <Corinthiaka> by whoever
it was...  If I could cheat and say "My lost work is the entire
Epic Cycle", I'd probably go for that, but I bet I couldn't.

There's been a bunch of people plumping for histories, so I'm
mildly surprised nobody's mentioned Hecataeus of, um, Miletus?
yet.  The guy Herodotus condemned in an early example of "make
your reputation by savaging your predecessor".

One of King Juba of Mauritania's history books would fall into a
similar category to the suggestions of Claudius's Etruscan
history.  But as with Eupolis - just one, and spend it on this?

I suspect the One Book I would be happiest settling for is not
even known to me.  We don't even have *titles* of Phoenician
and Philistine and Canaanite works, except for the strays from
Ugarit.  There are all kinds of places I could name - "I'd love
to have a druidical history of Gaul", for example - but that's
the one where I think there'd be highest odds of a really
satisfactory book *existing* that could shed all kinds of light
on a great unknown.  (I mean, how likely do you think it is even
that Gilgamesh had a court scribe to write his <Res Gestae>?)
So if I were allowed to gamble by saying "OK, I'll restrict my
choice to this area and period but you have to then tell me what
I can choose among", I'd go for Iron Age Syria-Palestine.

Oh dear...  what if I'd be better off going for Late Period
Egypt?

On and on...

Joe Bernstein

Signature

Joe Bernstein, bookseller and writer                   joe@sfbooks.com
<http://www.panix.com/~josephb/>

 
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