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History Forum / General / Archaeology / October 2004



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PBS & Neanderthal DNA...

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Day Brown - 21 Oct 2004 03:38 GMT
They ran the piece again the other nite.
They say no HNS DNA remains in modern man, HSS.
But then they show that the *only* DNA which they have is mitochondrial.
Y Chromosome DNA is too fragile to last.

So- Why didnt anyone ask what would happen if all the HNS females were
wiped out, but not the HNS males?

Is there a disease that would do that? Not exactly. But- only females
have trouble with childbirth. And HNS/HSS hybrids would have plenty. It
is a clue that almost all of the caesarians done are done to Native
European women.

The HNS skeleton is much more robust. Thus, the pelvis is more rigid. As
a modern woman gives birth, the pelvis actually cracks to relieve the
strain. The HNS pelvis wouldnt do that. The HNS neonate skull is long
like a football, with a lower crown, presenting a smaller cross area in
passing thru the birth canal. The HSS skull is more spherical, has a
larger cross section, and would not pass.

And, in point of fact, many of the Native European female bodies buried
show signs of birthing problems, sometimes with the foetus within.

We discussed much of this here a couple years ago, but I dont see any
sign that the issue has been dealt with by academic archaeology. Anyone
got a link?
James B. Bandow - 24 Oct 2004 04:23 GMT
> They ran the piece again the other nite.
> They say no HNS DNA remains in modern man, HSS.
> But then they show that the *only* DNA which they have is mitochondrial.
> Y Chromosome DNA is too fragile to last.

[snipped]

Well, there lies the problem. Ancient mDNA analysis has always been
controversial among biologists. The 'assumption' that mDNA is
maternally inherited exclusively has never been proven in the
scientific literature. But the popular media has accepted this 'fact'
as 'gospel'. If anybody bothered reading the original paper, they
would know that only ONE speciment was tested from a specimen from
Heidelberg Germany. This specimen has never been dated correctly and
some scholars don't even think it is Neanderthal but a predecessor!
Also, the mDNA results were compared to samples from 'modern' humans,
and great apes. There were 24 'displacments' between the 'neanderthal
specimen' and modern humans. However, these are based on statisical
meansures and if one BOTHERED to look at their charts...one quickly
notices the differences in mDNA between modern populations! Indeed,
North American caucasians (the biological term) exhibit 24
'displacements' between Australian Aborigines! So, does that mean that
Australian aborigines are a different species of human?? I didn't
think so! So why is 24 displacements a 'criteria' for ancient
speciation?

Lastly, some of the problems in mDNA research are finally coming to
light in the mainstream media, and one can quickly see the poor sample
size, technical problems, and dubious theoretical assumptions
underlining this research.

James B. bandow
Day Brown - 29 Oct 2004 05:57 GMT
> Lastly, some of the problems in mDNA research are finally coming to
> light in the mainstream media, and one can quickly see the poor sample
> size, technical problems, and dubious theoretical assumptions
> underlining this research.
The Origins of Order, by Kauffman, explores the different ways mass
species evolve from those which have small, isolated populations. The
Children of the Ice Age, (Sass?) shows how the Hominids were isolated in
several pockets as the transition zone between Savanna and Jungle shrank
dramatically with the onset of the ice ages.

And in Europe in particular, we see a situation where the populations
were even further fragmented by the rapid and frequent dramatic shifts
between warm/cold. All of these contribute to yer observation of small
sample size, compounded by the fact that, given the kind of variance
that Kauffman and Sass imply, that the samples which we do have are by
no means proved to be representative.

Kauffman shows how, when an isolated population merges with another
group to form a hybrid, that many of the combinations are not reliably
adapted. traits which worked in one ecosystem dont transfer well, and
are imperfectly inherited when mixed with a different strain. However,
sometimes the new hybrid is more adapted, has all the right traits, and
rapidly expands in numbers.

The funny thing about hybridization is that yu always see throwbacks
that are not well adapted. And the funny thing about Native Europeans,
is that far more than other genetic lines, there are a lot more freaks.
Think about the circus freak shows. Outside of the famous 'Siamese
Twins', they are all Native European. I got polio as a kid, was put in a
hospital with 600 kids in St. Paul in 1946. *all* of the spina bifada,
severe retardation, hydroencephalous, and other severe conditions I saw
were all white kids. One hispanic had a club foot.

But- by the same token, the Neanderthal hybridization also sometimes
results in a dramatically better adapted line. Thus we see where almost
all of the great Chess masters, scientific innovators, and programmers,
have been Neanderthal/Aryan, and/or Jewish. The unintended consequence
of pograms has been to eliminate the less astute from the Ashkenazic
Jews. And regarding mtDNA< I read that character and personality are
handed down in the male line, but intelligence from the female line.

We dont read much about the artic circle cultures engaging in warfare.
Targets were too poor and too far away to be worth bothering with. Never
mind the fact that Old Man Winter mite kill the warriors before they
ever got back with the loot. Likewise with the Neanderthal, who lived in
very small groups very widely separated. I've read that there were never
more than 100,000 scpread across the whole of Europe. Any of the
tropical river valleys had higher, and more warlike populations.

Even when Cro Magon showed up, the territory was vast, and it would've
paid well to make friends with the neanderthal who already knew it.
Furthermore, we see their tools, the fine points, blades, hand axes, and
the like, but what we dont see, which is ubiquitous where warfare is
common, are the stone headed battle axes.
 
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