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History Forum / General / Archaeology / October 2004Did Homo Sapiens and Neanderthaler rape each other during war?
Is that feasible? Ad. > Is that feasible? > > Ad. No.  SignatureTom McDonald http://webpages.charter.net/tsmac/tmcdonald2672/ >> Is that feasible? >> >> Ad. > > No. I read in "Britain BC" by Francis Pryor that there had been evidence found of inter-breeding between Neanderthal and Homosapiens in a Spanish find. SignatureFuzzie Jester -------------------- "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." "If God has created us in His image, we have more than returned the compliment." "When it's a question of money, everybody is of the same religion." -- Voltaire (1694 - 1778) >>> Is that feasible? >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I read in "Britain BC" by Francis Pryor that there had been evidence found of >inter-breeding between Neanderthal and Homosapiens in a Spanish find. There is no real question about whether Hns were genetically distinct to Hss, because they had some striking differences, e.g. birth strategy in one is to have hips wide enough to pass the large cranium of a sapiens baby through. The other have a short gestation period so the infant is born "prematurely" before the cranium has grown too large and hard. This basically comes about because Hns and Hss were not breeding with each other for a significantly long time. Whether or not they were able to interbreed at any stage during their co-existence is one thing, but there is obviously a long period where they didn't, maybe the better question is why they started trying again in Spain. <deletes "Fawlty Towers" joke again> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/sa/SAIRC/1997/50.html > There is no real question about whether Hns were genetically distinct to Hss, > because they had some striking differences, e.g. birth strategy in one is to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > didn't, maybe the better question is why they started trying again in Spain. > <deletes "Fawlty Towers" joke again> Maybe its cause guys are the ones who write about this issue. But it should be obvious to even them, that if an HNS male mated with an HSS female, her wider hips would have been able to safely deliver the hybrid, whereas the HNS female wouldda died in childbirth, not being able to pass the larger cross section HSS skull. (note however, that the HNS skull is long like a football, and commonly had a *larger* caranial capacity.) And- had that been going on, then the HNS mtDNA lines would mostly disappear. Which is exactly what Sykes, 'The Seven Daughters of Eve' found, to wit, that unlike other parts of the world which have scores and perhaps even 160 mtDNA lines, there are only 7 Native European female lines. Why? And if not the above, then why else? There is the economic argument as well. The Neanderthal knows where the game will be when, the Cro-Magon's weapons kill it, and the Neanderthal ox carries the meat back to the group. Deliberate genocide would not be a good idea. >> There is no real question about whether Hns were genetically distinct to Hss, >> because they had some striking differences, e.g. birth strategy in one is to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >and perhaps even 160 mtDNA lines, there are only 7 Native European >female lines. Why? And if not the above, then why else? If this had been going on, there would be one species of HS with the same variations that modern HSS now displays. Just to check, you start with one species, and it separates into two or more types by sticking to its own, reinforcing small differences to amplify them. This is usually a consequence of geography, e.g. there is a land slip and an isthmus becomes an island. Rabbits on the island, exposed to different circumstances, develop differently to the ones on the mainland, thus forming a different breed and, eventually, a different species. If the rabbits continue to interbreed, there's one breed and one species. In order for HNS and HSS to come into existence from whatever their common ancestor was, the people (who are not yet HNS or HSS) have to breed with people only in their group, and not with the other group. Eventually, by keeping this process of separate breeding going, differences become amplified and entirely different strategies (such as the birth / cranial thing) mark out that the two species are now different in coherent and clear ways. It's not a question of whether they can interbreed, but whether they haven't been, and the way to tell is by noting that there are significant differences between the members of each group. Whether this process went on for long enough that interbreeding had become impossible, is a question largely of semantics or detail. The wording is sufficiently unique that HNS and HSS can continue to be used, whether we regard them as separate species in their own right, or whether both as to be regarded as groups within the species HS. >There is the economic argument as well. The Neanderthal knows where the >game will be when, the Cro-Magon's weapons kill it, and the Neanderthal >ox carries the meat back to the group. Deliberate genocide would not be >a good idea. Deliberate genocide didn't happen, as far as I've heard. HNS and HSS were sharing space rather than being isolated and HNS failed to compete successfully. That's evolution for you. Whether this was because HSS was better at claiming the prey, protecting the family, etc, or just had a long run of bad luck is neither here nor there. The fact is that HNS has gone extinct and HSS has not. There are probably dozens of hominid species / sub-groupings capable of being identified where this same thing happened, but it would be excellent if this Flores species is still about. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/sa/SAIRC/1997/50.html >>>Is that feasible? >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I read in "Britain BC" by Francis Pryor that there had been evidence found of > inter-breeding between Neanderthal and Homosapiens in a Spanish find. Yes, but in every case archaeologists found remains of flowers, chocolates and silk stockings. There was apparently no rape involved. SignatureTom McDonald http://webpages.charter.net/tsmac/tmcdonald2672/ Of course it is. Men will screw anything without anyone around to tell them is it wrong. > Is that feasible? > > Ad. > Is that feasible? What war? That they had sex, certainly. Men will screw goats. But- in a world as crowded as ours, its hard to imagine what it was like back when there were only 100,000 hominids, of whatever kind, spread across the whole of Europe. With so much land, so few people, there is nothing to fight over. There's digs in Israel which suggest HNS and HSS living peacefully. which certianly makes sense when yu figure the economics. Let the Cro-magnon kill it with his superior hunting tools, but then, let the human ox, the Neanderthal, carry the carcass back to camp. Those who were able to cooperate in this way would do better. I've written a lot here to show that Native Europeans are part Neanderthal; I'd go into it, but there dont seem to be anyone else here interested; if yu want, drop me a line, and I'll try to outline the most recent data on the issue. [snipped] > I've written a lot here to show that Native Europeans are part > Neanderthal; I'd go into it, but there dont seem to be anyone else here > interested; if yu want, drop me a line, and I'll try to outline the most > recent data on the issue. Or one could just search "Wolpoff" in the literature. He and many other scholars have argued quite cogently for both genetic and cultural exchanges between Mousterian Peoples and the "Upper Paleolithic peoples". jbb Recently, such a rape was discovered in the mountains of Colorado, although many think it was consensual. Linguistic experts speculate that the question of consent comes down to the male Neanderthal understanding of the Homo Sapiens' utterance of the word "no". Apparently, the Neanderthal brain is wired to interpret the word as "yes" if she comes to his cave voluntarily and kisses him first. It is a moot point, since the Homo Sapiens prosecutor gave up on the possibility of being able to convince a mixed jury of Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens that her being a slut didn't matter. The Neanderthal's popularity as an athlete and his lawyer's skillful manipulation of the media to turn public opinion, and with it, the potential jury pool, was a factor in the decision to drop charges. But the Neanderthal's wife is really pissed, and he had hell to pay at his home cave.-Jitney Must have been tough getting your rocks off in the Stone Age :-)) There is the economic argument as well. The Neanderthal knows where the game will be when, the Cro-Magon's weapons kill it, and the Neanderthal ox carries the meat back to the group. Deliberate genocide would not be a good idea. How old are you? That's like saying Whites kill animals with their superior weaponry and Blacks can run the food back to camp faster, so both groups must have treated each other as equals, as it's only logical. You forgot his wife was CroMagnan, that's why the Neanderthal's dad wouldn't come to the wedding. Recently, such a rape was discovered in the mountains of Colorado, although many think it was consensual. Linguistic experts speculate that the question of consent comes down to the male Neanderthal understanding of the Homo Sapiens' utterance of the word "no". Apparently, the Neanderthal brain is wired to interpret the word as "yes" if she comes to his cave voluntarily and kisses him first. It is a moot point, since the Homo Sapiens prosecutor gave up on the possibility of being able to convince a mixed jury of Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens that her being a slut didn't matter. The Neanderthal's popularity as an athlete and his lawyer's skillful manipulation of the media to turn public opinion, and with it, the potential jury pool, was a factor in the decision to drop charges. But the Neanderthal's wife is really pissed, and he had hell to pay at his home cave.-Jitney > Tim Vaughanwrote: You forgot his wife was CroMagnan, that's why the Neanderthal's dad wouldn't come to the wedding. Are either of them White people? |
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