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History Forum / General / Archaeology / March 2006Typhus and the 5th BC Athenian Plague
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_pl ague.html  SignaturePhilip - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ____Groups_____ Mol Anthro http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/ Pal Anthro http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/ Arch. Aux http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/ Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/ Evol. of Xchrom. http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm Interesting. question is which type of Typhus? Inger E > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_pl > ague.html [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/ > Evol. of Xchrom. http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm > > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_pl > > ague.html [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Interesting. > question is which type of Typhus? Well, the source of the article says typhoid fever: http://www.elsevier-international.com/journals/suppfile/flat/ijid_athens.pdf Thanks for the link, Philip, Alan SignatureAlan Crozier Lund Sweden > > > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_pl > > > ague.html [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Well, the source of the article says typhoid fever: http://www.elsevier-international.com/journals/suppfile/flat/ijid_athens.pdf > Thanks for the link, Philip, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lund > Sweden then again which type of typhoid fever. In other words: Typhoid fever of Parathoid fever? More specialy: Typhoid caused by bacterium Salmonella typhi, salmonella often spread by waterpollution or bad hand-hygiene; or by Salmonella paratyphi; Salmonella enteriditis or Salmonella typhimurium ? From the article that's not quite sure and my own question about typhus wasn't related to salmonella typhi from waterpollution or bad handhygiene. It was caused by the unrelated typhus, in my question the deasese was supposed to come from squirrel contacts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhus Inger E > > > > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_pl > > > > ague.html [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > It was caused by the unrelated typhus, in my question the deasese was > supposed to come from squirrel contacts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhus Didn't you read the article? The conclusion drawn by the authors is quite clear: Salmonella enterica serovar Typhi. There is no mention of squirrels. Alan SignatureAlan Crozier Lund Sweden > > > > > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_pl > > > > > ague.html [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > > > Well, the source of the article says typhoid fever: http://www.elsevier-international.com/journals/suppfile/flat/ijid_athens.pdf > > > Thanks for the link, Philip, > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Didn't you read the article? The conclusion drawn by the authors is quite clear: Salmonella > enterica serovar Typhi. There is no mention of squirrels. I read the article - but I don't believe prd read my origin post thinking of the differences between Typhus and Salmonella Typhus/typhus fever. Nor is it from the 'Salmonella enterica serovar Typhi clear where the origin bacteria developed before the state which caused the possible outbreak of the disease. Inger E > Alan > > -- > Alan Crozier > Lund > Sweden > "Alan Crozier" skrev >> "IE J" wrote in >>> "Alan Crozier" skrev >>>>> "prd" skrev > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_plague.html >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> question is which type of Typhus? >>>> Well, the source of the article says typhoid fever: >>>> http://www.elsevier-international.com/journals/suppfile/flat/ijid_athens.pdf >>>> >>>> Thanks for the link, Philip, >>> then again which type of typhoid fever. In other words: >>> Typhoid fever of Parathoid fever? More specialy: Typhoid caused by [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> bad handhygiene. It was caused by the unrelated typhus, in my >>> question the deasese was supposed to come from squirrel contacts. Not squirrels. but _flying_ squirrels. In a sci group you must be preciese. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhus >> Didn't you read the article? The conclusion drawn by the authors is >> quite clear: Salmonella enterica serovar Typhi. There is no mention >> of squirrels. > I read the article - but I don't believe prd read my origin post > thinking of the differences between Typhus and Salmonella > Typhus/typhus fever. Why blame Philip? I don't think that you thought of the possibility that the European plaques were something other than Typhus caused by Rickettsia. > Nor is it from the 'Salmonella enterica serovar > Typhi clear where the origin bacteria developed before the state > which caused the possible outbreak of the disease. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. Signaturep.a. Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused between Typhus and Typhus fever. Apart from that I wanted to know the origin of the assumed "Typhus" in Athen. In other word more than the article gave away. Do you or don't you have more special knowledge than you shown in the question up to now it would be very interesting to learn where it origin from. Find it hard to believe that the Greek had bad water and hygiene. Inger E > Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? > Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused between [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would be very interesting to learn where it origin from. Find it hard to > believe that the Greek had bad water and hygiene. You are right, Inger. it is important to read full texts. The National Geographic article to which Philip sent a link gave very few details, but it did state that the study was available online, so it was easy for me to go to the original study to find out that it wasn't typhus but typhoid fever, caused by Salmonella enterica serovar Typhi. The authors, as you know, talk about insanitary conditions and poor water conditions during the siege. Why do you find that hard to believe? Alan SignatureAlan Crozier Lund Sweden > > Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? > > Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused between [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The authors, as you know, talk about insanitary conditions and poor water conditions during > the siege. Why do you find that hard to believe? That's the author's opinion. He has the right to have his opinion. However his assumption behind his opinion needs more hard facts either from contemporary sources or from archaeologic excavationresults. Apart from that he hasn't looked into the premisses needed for his assumption to be true. Not at all. Inger E > Alan > > -- > Alan Crozier > Lund > Sweden >>> Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? >>> Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > That's the author's opinion. He has the right to have his opinion. What a impertinence! > However his assumption behind his opinion needs more hard facts > either from contemporary sources or from archaeologic > excavationresults. What more hard facts do you expect? A written statement by the Water & Food Authorities that everything was fine? From the article (page 8) " In conclusion, the results of this study incriminate typhoid fever as a probable cause of the Plague of Athens. Considering the overcrowding and insanitary conditions (especially regarding the water supplies) within the walls of the besieged Athens, a typhoid epidemic would have been likely to break out either as the solitary cause of the plague or as an minor epidemic adjunct to a yet unidentified agent of the major one. ..." > Apart from that he hasn't looked into the premisses > needed for his assumption to be true. Not at all. " until now, the diagnosis of the cause of the Plague of Athens was based exclusively on Thucydides' narrations, taking their validity and reliability for granted. In addition, it is generally assumed that no key clinical features were omitted and the description of the disease was as accurate as possible at the time, even though some parts of Thucydides' great history were written in retrospect, as much as 20 years after the recorded facts.Although a keen observer, a careful recorder of events and a victim of the disease himself, Thucydides may not have been able to weigh the relative significance of the variable clinical manifestations of the plague. The writer may have stressed trivial signs and symptoms at the expense of important ones. Even though the description of the plague reflects Thucydides' familiarity with medical terminology, it is important to remember that the writer was not a physician but an historian. " That last statement sounds very familiar. Are you shure you are in a position to grant the writers of the article their own opinion, and are you sure you have the capabilities to have a opinion of your own? I don't think so Signaturep.a. >> > Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? >> > Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused between [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > he hasn't looked into the premisses needed for his assumption to be true. > Not at all. DNA is as hard as it gets. > Inger E >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Lund >> Sweden > Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? > Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused > between Typhus and Typhus fever. Why then assumed that he din't read your flying squirel post? And he is not confused either. His post is relevant to your question. Please learn to reply without ad hominem. > Apart from that I wanted to know the origin of the assumed "Typhus" > in Athen. In other word more than the article gave away. Do you or > don't you have more special knowledge than you shown in the question > up to now it would be very interesting to learn where it origin from. > Find it hard to believe that the Greek had bad water and hygiene. Salmonella types are quite common today and people are dying from it, despite much better medical care. See eg.: http://www.salmonella.org/info.html "There is a great deal of confusion over the naming of Salmonella strains (even the people who work on Salmonella are confused!)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmonella If you want to link Canadian Rickettsia infection with medieval European plagues, then it is up to you to find the evidence; in the first place for the occurence of Typhus in Europe, in the second place for the occurence in the desired period, and at last for the connection. Signaturep.a. > > Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? > > Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > place for the occurence in the desired period, > and at last for the connection. I just noticed an amusing mistake in the National Geographic article to which Philip the dopey bottle washer and cyberstalker referred. The first sentence reads "the cause of a plague that wracked Athens from 426 to 430 B.C." So the plague started four years after it ended. Another recent newspaper howler from Denmark was about language death. It said that, of the 6,500 languages existing today, it is reckoned that within a couple of generations, half, or perhaps even a third, will become extinct. Alan SignatureAlan Crozier Lund Sweden >> IEj wrote: >>> Peter when will you learn to read full texts I written? >>> Not blaiming Philip for sending the post but for being confused >>> between Typhus and Typhus fever. >> Why then assumed that he din't read your flying squirel post? >> And he is not confused either. His post is relevant to your question. >> Please learn to reply without ad hominem. >>> Apart from that I wanted to know the origin of the assumed "Typhus" >>> in Athen. In other word more than the article gave away. Do you or >>> don't you have more special knowledge than you shown in the question >>> up to now it would be very interesting to learn where it origin >>> from. Find it hard to believe that the Greek had bad water and >>> hygiene. >> Salmonella types are quite common today and people >> are dying from it, despite much better medical care. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> place for the occurence in the desired period, >> and at last for the connection. > I just noticed an amusing mistake in the National Geographic article > to which Philip the dopey bottle washer and cyberstalker referred. > The first sentence reads "the cause of a plague that wracked Athens > from 426 to 430 B.C." > > So the plague started four years after it ended. Yes, there were a bit backward then, and also otherwise interested in backs. That are the s.c. 'Greek Principles' still confessed by many today. > Another recent newspaper howler from Denmark was about language > death. It said that, of the 6,500 languages existing today, it is > reckoned that within a couple of generations, half, or perhaps even a > third, will become extinct. I read that somewhere. I wondered how they know that. We better start an international breeding program for endangered languages. Signaturep.a. > I read that somewhere. I wondered how they know that. > We better start an international breeding program for > endangered languages. They are extrapolating from previous rates of language extinction. A live language is usually described as one with native speakers using it as a birth tongue. In spite of the number of people who can read and even speak Classical Greek and Latin they are dead languages. Ken Young >>> IEj wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > We better start an international breeding program for > endangered languages. A lot of small groups still have a few people that speak the native lingo but they mainly speak something else in order to get along in the greater world. Of course Irish came back and Welsh. SNIP > Another recent newspaper howler from Denmark was about language death. It > said that, of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Alan Or as few as two thirds? HWL In sci.archaeology message <P.Alaca@206.nn> . . . : > Why blame Philip? I don't think that you thought > of the possibility that the European plaques were > something other than Typhus caused by Rickettsia. Why blame me, I was simply trying to dilute Inger's and Matt's Bullshit with some actual different and new archaeology. > You simply have no idea what you are talking about. Of course she doesn't, and it is so kind for other archaeologist to write timely peices to refute her so we can simply link and not waste the time arguing with a first class loon. >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0227_060227_athens_plague.html :-( Eric Stevens |
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