herbs and plants in general

Thread view:

Enable EMail Alerts

Start New Thread

Thread rating:

IE J - 27 Mar 2006 10:16 GMT

Is it possible from results of pollenanalyses to say when new herbs and
other species were introduced in for example Scandinavia, France, Germany
and on the British Isles?

What I really want to know is if it's for example was a change in pollen
from herbs and plants in general used during the period direct after the
Romans left England; when the Merovingers entered the scen in France; short
before or during the late Medieval Age in Germany and Scandinavia. etc.

Any suggestions of where to look for this type of information?

Inger E

Reply to this Message

Andrew Dalby - 27 Mar 2006 11:09 GMT

> Is it possible from results of pollenanalyses to say when new herbs and
> other species were introduced in for example Scandinavia, France, Germany
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Inger E

The following on-line article

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue1/tomlinson/toc.html

is your answer for Britain, I think. For northern Europe as a whole,
I've been in the habit of using an article by Greig:

J. R. Greig, 'Plant foods in the past: a review of evidence from
northern Europe' in \Journal of plant foods\ vol. 5 (1983) pp. 179-214.

I wouldn't have thought the Merovingians introduced a lot of plants --
but I could be wrong! The Romans certainly appear to have introduced a
good many to Britain, and a few failed to survive long term after their
departure.

Andrew

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/

Reply to this Message

IE J - 27 Mar 2006 11:10 GMT

Thanks Andrew,
you made my day!

Inger E

Reply to this Message

Peter Alaca - 27 Mar 2006 11:55 GMT

> Thanks Andrew,
> you made my day!
>
> Inger E

On 13 february 2006 I started a tread with the name
"Archaeological evidence for food plants"
That is only six weeks ago.
You never thanked me for that.
Here is that post again.

Philippa Tomlinson & Allan R. Hall (1996)
"Archaeological evidence for food plants
from the British Isles"
http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue1/tomlinson_toc.html

"The Archaeobotanical Computer Database is an
electronic compilation of information about
remains of plants from archaeological deposits
throughout the British Isles."

"For the first time, this wealth of published data
... has been brought together in a form in which
the user can explore the history of a particular
species or group of plants, or investigate the
flora and vegetation of a particular
archaeological period or part of the British Isles."

"In this paper the compilers of the ABCD make
use of the database in order to review the
archaeological evidence for food plants in the
British Isles. The paper begins with a definition
of its scope, examining the concept of a "food
plant" and the taphonomy of plant remains on
British archaeological sites. It then summarises
the principal changes in food plants from the
prehistoric period to post-medieval times. The
body of the paper is a detailed discussion of the
evidence for the use of berries, other fruits,
vegetables, pulses, herbs and flavourings, oil
plants, cereals and nuts. Finally, the paper
compares the archaeological evidence with that
known from documentary sources."

I like it. Very informative, it covers a lot of
problems and is refreshing critical.

Signature

º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°

Reply to this Message

Alan Crozier - 27 Mar 2006 13:12 GMT

> > Thanks Andrew,
> > you made my day!
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> I like it. Very informative, it covers a lot of
> problems and is refreshing critical.

That post might not have appeared on Inger's server. Unfortunately, the thread died soon
after you tried to draw people's attention to the work of Tomlinson & Hall. Perhaps it is a
mere coincidence that Deitiker and Renfors were the only people to join in, but everyone
else avoided the thread.

Alan

Signature

Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Reply to this Message

IE J - 27 Mar 2006 15:51 GMT

> > > Thanks Andrew,
> > > you made my day!
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> Alan

You are right Alan,
and since I 'only' wanted to check England against France and Germany
against Sweden in those days I might not have been so interested in it.
Didn't know then that I might need some data to check against archaeological
reports and written sources.

What I am interested in is the question if it's possible to see in usage,
found or analysed from vessels and plates of the time, and/or pollenanalyses
to determin the pattern of group movements.

Inger E

> --
> Alan Crozier
> Lund
> Sweden

Reply to this Message

Peter Alaca - 27 Mar 2006 16:35 GMT

> "Alan Crozier" skrev i meddelandet
>> "Peter Alaca" wrote in message

>>>> Thanks Andrew,
>>>> you made my day!

>>> On 13 february 2006 I started a tread with the name
>>> "Archaeological evidence for food plants"
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> usage, found or analysed from vessels and plates of the time, and/or
> pollenanalyses to determin the pattern of group movements.

No, it isn't possible to connect pollen or other
plant remains with particular groups or peoples.
How could it be? .There are no names on the
pollengrains.
Even in the case of the rise of agriculture in Europe
we only see an advance, in part accompanied by
certain cultural similarities (eg LBK pottery), but
nobody knows how the agriculture was transferred.
Was it by migration or by acculturation?

Al you can do with pollen is reconstruct past local
environments and detect changes in those environments.
So you can detect through remains of cultivated plants
the presence of people, but it is impossible to name
the farmers as person, group or people.
I advised you before to abondon this line of research,
because you are wasting your time

Signature

º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°

Reply to this Message

Peter Alaca - 27 Mar 2006 16:36 GMT

>>> Thanks Andrew,
>>> you made my day!
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>> compares the archaeological evidence with that
>> known from documentary sources."

>> I like it. Very informative, it covers a lot of
>> problems and is refreshing critical.

> That post might not have appeared on Inger's server. Unfortunately,
> the thread died soon after you tried to draw people's attention to
> the work of Tomlinson & Hall. Perhaps it is a mere coincidence that
> Deitiker and Renfors were the only people to join in, but everyone
> else avoided the thread.

Well, it is not alway necessary to reply to that
kind of posts. In most cases the main purpose of
'my' threads is, as you said, to draw the reader's
attention to what I regard as good quality information.

Signature

p.a.

Reply to this Message

Alan Crozier - 27 Mar 2006 16:44 GMT

> >>> Thanks Andrew,
> >>> you made my day!
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> 'my' threads is, as you said, to draw the reader's
> attention to what I regard as good quality information.

And you do a very good job, clear evidence that you have too much time on your hands.

Alan

Signature

Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Reply to this Message

Peter Alaca - 27 Mar 2006 16:56 GMT

>>>>> Thanks Andrew,
>>>>> you made my day!
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> And you do a very good job, clear evidence that you have too much
> time on your hands.

It is an indication, not compelling evidence.
But I can do with a more predictable life.

Signature

p.a.

Reply to this Message

Andrew Dalby - 31 Mar 2006 14:07 GMT

> It is an indication, not compelling evidence.
> But I can do with a more predictable life.

Peter, I'm going to thank you. I feel sure it was from your posting in
February that I first learned about the paper to which I have now
referred Inger.

Andrew

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/

Reply to this Message

Peter Alaca - 31 Mar 2006 14:25 GMT

>> It is an indication, not compelling evidence.
>> But I can do with a more predictable life.
>
> Peter, I'm going to thank you. I feel sure it was from your posting in
> February that I first learned about the paper to which I have now
> referred Inger.

No need to thank me this way. Fo me exchange
of information is the basis of the Usenet.
Unfortunately a person here refuses to share her
knowledge.

Signature

p.a.

Reply to this Message

Alan Crozier - 27 Mar 2006 11:27 GMT

> Is it possible from results of pollenanalyses to say when new herbs and
> other species were introduced in for example Scandinavia, France, Germany
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Romans left England; when the Merovingers entered the scen in France; short
> before or during the late Medieval Age in Germany and Scandinavia. etc.

For medieval Ukraine you can read this:
http://www.urbanhabitats.org/v01n01/medievalkiev_full.html

Alan

Signature

Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden

Reply to this Message

IE J - 27 Mar 2006 15:48 GMT

> > Is it possible from results of pollenanalyses to say when new herbs and
> > other species were introduced in for example Scandinavia, France, Germany
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Alan

Thanks Allan.

Inger E

> --
> Alan Crozier
> Lund
> Sweden

Reply to this Message

History Forum / General / Archaeology / March 2006

herbs and plants in general