Deconstructing the Walls of Jericho
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Matt Giwer - 06 Dec 2006 04:20 GMT Ha'aretz, 1999
A Journal of History, Geography, Language and Archaeology
Deconstructing the Walls of Jericho
By Professor Ze'ev Herzog, Tel Aviv University
Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.
What follows is a short account of the brief history of archaeology, with the emphasis on the crises and the big bang, so to speak, of the past decade. The critical question of this archaeological revolution has not yet trickled down into public consciousness, but it cannot be ignored.
Inventing the Bible stories
The archaeology of Palestine developed as a science at a relatively late date, in the late 19th and early 20th century, in tandem with the archaeology of the imperial cultures of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome. Those resource-intensive powers were the first target of the researchers, who were looking for impressive evidence from the past, usually in the service of the big museums in London, Paris and Berlin. That stage effectively passed over Palestine, with its fragmented geographical diversity. The conditions in ancient Palestine were inhospitable for the development of an extensive kingdom, and certainly no showcase projects such as the Egyptian shrines or the Mesopotamian palaces could have been established there. In fact, the archaeology of Palestine was not engendered at the initiative of museums but sprang from religious motives.
The main push behind archaeological research in Palestine was the country's relationship with the Holy Scriptures. The first excavators in Jericho and Shechem (Nablus) were biblical researchers who were looking for the remains of the cities cited in the Bible. Archaeology assumed momentum with the activity of William Foxwell Albright, who mastered the archeology, history and linguistics of the Land of Israel and the ancient Near East. Albright, an American whose father was a priest of Chilean descent, began excavating in Palestine in the 1920s. His declared approach was that archaeology was the principal scientific means to refute the critical claims against the historical veracity of the Bible stories, particularly those of the Wellhausen school in Germany.
The school of biblical criticism that developed in Germany beginning in the second half of the 19th century, of which Julian Wellhausen was a leading figure, challenged the historicity of the Bible stories and claimed that biblical historiography was formulated, and in large measure actually "invented," during the Babylonian exile. Bible scholars, the Germans in particular, claimed that the history of the Hebrews, as a consecutive series of events beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and proceeding through the move to Egypt, the enslavement and the exodus, and ending with the conquest of the land and the settlement of the tribes of Israel, was no more than a later reconstruction of events with a theological purpose.
Albright believed that the Bible is a historical document, which, although it had gone through several editing stages, nevertheless basically reflected the ancient reality. He was convinced that if the ancient remains of Palestine were uncovered, they would furnish unequivocal proof of the historical truth of the events relating to the Jewish people in its land.
The biblical archaeology that developed from Albright and his pupils brought about a series of extensive digs at the important biblical tells: Megiddo, Lachish, Gezer, Shechem (Nablus), Jericho, Jerusalem, Ai, Giveon, Beit She'an, Beit Shemesh, Hazor, Ta'anach and others. The way was straight and clear: every finding that was uncovered would contribute to the building of a harmonious picture of the past. The archaeologists, who enthusiastically adopted the biblical approach, set out on a quest to unearth the "biblical period": the period of the patriarchs, the Canaanite cities that were destroyed by the Israelites as they conquered the land, the boundaries of the 12 tribes, the sites of the settlement period, characterized by "settlement pottery," the "gates of Solomon" at Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer, "Solomon's stables" (or Ahab's), "King Solomon's mines" at Timna - and there are some who are still hard at work and have found Mount Sinai (at Mount Karkoum in the Negev) or Joshua's altar at Mount Ebal.
The crisis
Slowly, cracks began to appear in the picture. Paradoxically, a situation was created in which the glut of findings began to undermine the historical credibility of the biblical descriptions instead of reinforcing them. A crisis stage is reached when the theories within the framework of the general thesis are unable to solve an increasingly large number of anomalies. The explanations become ponderous and inelegant, and the pieces do not lock together smoothly. Here are a few examples of how the harmonious picture collapsed.
Patriarchal Age: The researchers found it difficult to reach agreement on which archaeological period matched the Patriarchal Age. When did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live? When was the Cave of Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron) bought in order to serve as the burial place for the patriarchs and the matriarchs? According to the biblical chronology, Solomon built the Temple 480 years after the exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). To that we have to add 430 years of the stay in Egypt (Exodus 12:40) and the vast lifetimes of the patriarchs, producing a date in the 21th century BCE for Abraham's move to Canaan.
However, no evidence has been unearthed that can sustain this chronology. Albright argued in the early 1960s in favor of assigning the wanderings of Abraham to the Middle Bronze Age (22nd-20th centuries BCE). However, Benjamin Mazar, the father of the Israeli branch of biblical archaeology, proposed identifying the historic background of the Patriarchal Age a thousand years later, in the 11th century BCE - which would place it in the "settlement period." Others rejected the historicity of the stories and viewed them as ancestral legends that were told in the period of the Kingdom of Judea. In any event, the consensus began to break down.
The exodus from Egypt, the wanderings in the desert and Mount Sinai: The many Egyptian documents that we have make no mention of the Israelites' presence in Egypt and are also silent about the events of the exodus. Many documents do mention the custom of nomadic shepherds to enter Egypt during periods of drought and hunger and to camp at the edges of the Nile Delta. However, this was not a solitary phenomenon: such events occurred frequently across thousands of years and were hardly exceptional.
Generations of researchers tried to locate Mount Sinai and the stations of the tribes in the desert. Despite these intensive efforts, not even one site has been found that can match the biblical account.
The potency of tradition has now led some researchers to "discover" Mount Sinai in the northern Hijaz or, as already mentioned, at Mount Karkoum in the Negev. These central events in the history of the Israelites are not corroborated in documents external to the Bible or in archaeological findings. Most historians today agree that at best, the stay in Egypt and the exodous occurred in a few families and that their private story was expanded and "nationalized" to fit the needs of theological ideology.
The conquest: One of the shaping events of the people of Israel in biblical historiography is the story of how the land was conquered from the Canaanites. Yet extremely serious difficulties have cropped up precisely in the attempts to locate the archaeological evidence for this story.
Repeated excavations by various expeditions at Jericho and Ai, the two cities whose conquest is described in the greatest detail in the Book of Joshua, have proved very disappointing. Despite the excavators' efforts, it emerged that in the late part of the 13th century BCE, at the end of the Late Bronze Age, which is the agreed period for the conquest, there were no cities in either tell, and of course no walls that could have been toppled. Naturally, explanations were offered for these anomalies. Some claimed that the walls around Jericho were washed away by rain, while others suggested that earlier walls had been used; and, as for Ai, it was claimed that the original story actually referred to the conquest of nearby Beit El and was transferred to Ai by later redactors.
Biblical scholars suggested a quarter of a century ago that the conquest stories be viewed as etiological legends and no more. But as more and more sites were uncovered and it emerged that the places in question died out or were simply abandoned at different times, the conclusion was bolstered that there is no factual basis for the biblical story about the conquest by Israelite tribes in a military campaign led by Joshua.
The Canaanite cities: The Bible magnifies the strength and the fortifications of the Canaanite cities that were conquered by the Israelites: "great cities with walls sky-high" (Deuteronomy 9:1). In practice, all the sites that have been uncovered turned up remains of unfortified settlements, which in most cases consisted of a few structures or the ruler's palace rather than a genuine city. The urban culture of Palestine in the Late Bronze Age disintegrated in a process that lasted hundreds of years and did not stem from military conquest. Moreover, the biblical description is inconsistent with the geopolitical reality in Palestine. Palestine was under Egyptian rule until the middle of the 12th century BCE. The Egyptians' administrative centers were located in Gaza, Yaffo and Beit She'an. Egyptian findings have also been discovered in many locations on both sides of the Jordan River. This striking presence is not mentioned in the biblical account, and it is clear that it was unknown to the author and his editors.
The archaeological findings blatantly contradict the biblical picture: the Canaanite cities were not "great," were not fortified and did not have "sky-high walls." The heroism of the conquerors, the few versus the many and the assistance of the God who fought for his people are a theological reconstruction lacking any factual basis.
Origin of the Israelites: The fusion of the conclusions drawn from the episodes relating to the stages in which the people of Israel emerged gave rise to a discussion of the bedrock question: the identity of the Israelites. If there is no evidence for the exodus from Egypt and the desert journey, and if the story of the military conquest of fortified cities has been refuted by archaeology, who, then, were these Israelites? The archaeological findings did corroborate one important fact: in the early Iron Age (beginning some time after 1200 BCE), the stage that is identified with the "settlement period," hundreds of small settlements were established in the area of the central hill region of the Land of Israel, inhabited by farmers who worked the land or raised sheep. If they did not come from Egypt, what is the origin of these settlers? Israel Finkelstein, professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, has proposed that these settlers were the pastoral shepherds who wandered in this hill area throughout the Late Bronze Age (graves of these people have been found, without settlements). According to his reconstruction, in the Late Bronze Age (which preceded the Iron Age) the shepherds maintained a barter economy of meat in exchange for grains with the inhabitants of the valleys. With the disintegration of the urban and agricultural system in the lowland, the nomads were forced to produce their own grains, and hence the incentive for fixed settlements arose.
The name "Israel" is mentioned in a single Egyptian document from the period of Merneptah, king of Egypt, dating from 1208 BCE: "Plundered is Canaan with every evil, Ascalon is taken, Gezer is seized, Yenoam has become as though it never was, Israel is desolated, its seed is not." Merneptah refers to the country by its Canaanite name and mentions several cities of the kingdom, along with a non-urban ethnic group. According to this evidence, the term "Israel" was given to one of the population groups that resided in Canaan toward the end of the Late Bronze Age, apparently in the central hill region, in the area where the Kingdom of Israel would later be established.
A kingdom with no name
The united monarchy: Archaeology was also the source that brought about the shift regarding the reconstruction of the reality in the period known as the "united monarchy" of David and Solomon. The Bible describes this period as the zenith of the political, military and economic power of the people of Israel in ancient times. In the wake of David's conquests, the empire of David and Solomon stretched from the Euprates River to Gaza ("For he controlled the whole region west of the Euphrates, from Tiphsah to Gaza, all the kings west of the Euphrates," 1 Kings 5:4). The archaeological findings at many sites show that the construction projects attributed to this period were meager in scope and power.
The three cities of Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer, which are mentioned among Solomon's construction enterprises, have been excavated extensively at the appropriate layers. Only about half of Hazor's upper section was fortified, covering an area of only 30 dunams (7.5 acres), out of a total area of 700 dunams which was settled in the Bronze Age. At Gezer there was apparently only a citadel surrounded by a casematewall covering a small area, while Megiddo was not fortified with a wall.
The picture becomes even more complicated in the light of the excavations conducted in Jerusalem, the capital of the united monarchy. Large sections of the city have been excavated over the past 150 years. The digs have turned up impressive remnants of the cities from the Middle Bronze Age and from Iron Age II (the period of the Kingdom of Judea). No remains of buildings have been found from the period of the united monarchy (even according to the agreed chronology), only a few pottery shards. Given the preservation of the remains from earlier and later periods, it is clear that Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon was a small city, perhaps with a small citadel for the king, but in any event it was not the capital of an empire as described in the Bible. This small chiefdom is the source of the "Beth David" title mentioned in later Aramean and Moabite inscriptions. The authors of the biblical account knew Jerusalem in the 8th century BCE, with its wall and the rich culture of which remains have been found in various parts of the city, and projected this picture back to the age of the united monarchy. Presumably Jerusalem acquired its central status after the destruction of Samaria, its northern rival, in 722 BCE.
The archaeological findings dovetail well with the conclusions of the critical school of biblical scholarship. David and Solomon were the rulers of tribal kingdoms that controlled small areas: the former in Hebron and the latter in Jerusalem. Concurrently, a separate kingdom began to form in the Samaria hills, which finds expression in the stories about Saul's kingdom. Israel and Judea were from the outset two separate, independent kingdoms, and at times were in an adversarial relationship. Thus, the great united monarchy is an imaginary historiosophic creation, which was composed during the period of the Kingdom of Judea at the earliest. Perhaps the most decisive proof of this is the fact that we do not know the name of this kingdom.
Jehovah and his consort: How many gods, exactly, did Israel have? Together with the historical and political aspects, there are also doubts as to the credibility of the information about belief and worship. The question about the date at which monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods: Jehovah and his Asherah. At two sites, Kuntiliet Ajrud in the southwestern part of the Negev hill region, and at Khirbet el-Kom in the Judea piedmont, Hebrew inscriptions have been found that mention "Jehovah and his Asherah," "Jehovah Shomron and his Asherah, "Jehovah Teman and his Asherah." The authors were familiar with a pair of gods, Jehovah and his consort Asherah, and send blessings in the couple's name. These inscriptions, from the 8th century BCE, raise the possibility that monotheism, as a state religion, is actually an innovation of the period of the Kingdom of Judea, following the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel.
The archaeology of the Land of Israel is completing a process that amounts to a scientific revolution in its field. It is ready to confront the findings of biblical scholarship and of ancient history. But at the same time, we are witnessing a fascinating phenomenon in which all this is simply ignored by the Israeli public. Many of the findings mentioned here have been known for decades. The professional literature in the spheres of archaeology, Bible and the history of the Jewish people has addressed them in dozens of books and hundreds of articles. Even if not all the scholars accept the individual arguments that inform the examples I cited, the majority have adopted their main points.
Nevertheless, these revolutionary views are not penetrating the public consciousness. About a year ago, my colleague, the historian Prof. Nadav Ne'eman, published an article in the Culture and Literature section of Ha'aretz entitled "To Remove the Bible from the Jewish Bookshelf," but there was no public outcry. Any attempt to question the reliability of the biblical descriptions is perceived as an attempt to undermine "our historic right to the land" and as shattering the myth of the nation that is renewing the ancient Kingdom of Israel. These symbolic elements constitute such a critical component of the construction of the Israeli identity that any attempt to call their veracity into question encounters hostility or silence. It is of some interest that such tendencies within the Israeli secular society go hand-in-hand with the outlook among educated Christian groups. I have found a similar hostility in reaction to lectures I have delivered abroad to groups of Christian bible lovers, though what upset them was the challenge to the foundations of their fundamentalist religious belief.
It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is willing to accept the principle of equal rights for women - but is not up to adopting the archaeological facts that shatter the biblical myth. The blow to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye.
© copyright 1999 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved
Kendall K. Down - 06 Dec 2006 07:10 GMT > Ha'aretz, 1999 It would, I suppose, be too much to expect Matt to grasp the concept that a discovery in 2005 trumps an article written in 1999. Still, I'll have a go:
Matt, back in 1921 it was correct to say "No undisturbed royal burial has ever been found in Egypt." In 1922 Tut's tomb was found. After that date only a complete idiot would claim that no undisturbed royal burial has ever been found in Egypt - look, here are all these experts who said so back in 1921, 1920, 1919 and earlier.
The article you have quoted is an accurate (if biased) summary of the state of things in 1999. It says nothing whatsoever about the situation in 2006.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 07 Dec 2006 02:53 GMT >> Ha'aretz, 1999 > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > been found in Egypt - look, here are all these experts who said so back in > 1921, 1920, 1919 and earlier.
> The article you have quoted is an accurate (if biased) summary of the state > of things in 1999. It says nothing whatsoever about the situation in 2006. As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
Kendall K. Down - 07 Dec 2006 07:30 GMT > As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute > physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that contradicts his irrational and racist world-view.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 03:22 GMT >> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >> physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
> By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean > anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has > come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that contradicts his > irrational and racist world-view. When your fellow believer actually publishes we can talk about exactly what she says in the paper.
Until then there is no physical evidence.
Martin Edwards - 08 Dec 2006 08:04 GMT >>As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >>physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ken Down That's balls, frankly. As a historian I don't follow his hard line and deal in balance of probabilities, but he means exactly what is says, and it is a valid point of view.
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Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 12:17 GMT >>> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact >>> constitute physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
>> By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean >> anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has >> come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that >> contradicts his >> irrational and racist world-view.
> That's balls, frankly. As a historian I don't follow his hard line and > deal in balance of probabilities, but he means exactly what is says, and > it is a valid point of view. If I am not mistaken probabilities in the interest of historians are to be between historical narratives. They are not to be between myth and historical narrative.
It is like Herodotus and Josephus. Given their methodology, if any, what is the likelihood their version is credible? Were the Hebrews, as Josephus said, really expelled from Egypt because of endemic leprosy? Not likely but no more likely than the current bible version.
Martin Edwards - 08 Dec 2006 17:04 GMT >>>> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact >>>> constitute physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Josephus said, really expelled from Egypt because of endemic leprosy? > Not likely but no more likely than the current bible version. I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here.
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Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 18:07 GMT > I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite?
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 07:33 GMT >> I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here.
> So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite? So you agree with the PRIEST Josephus that the Hebrews were expelled from Egypt for endemic leprosy? What might be your definition of antisemitic?
What is the probability that tales of magic and miracles and crazy people are true? Zero of course.
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:33 GMT >>I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. > > So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite? > > Ken Down I am part Jew and used to object to the "n" word when people looked back at me puzzled. Go and argue with another boy, you're not worth my time.
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Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 11:32 GMT >>> I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. >> So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite?
> I am part Jew and used to object to the "n" word when people looked back > at me puzzled. Go and argue with another boy, you're not worth my time. You cannot be part anything unless you accept the religious belief that a person can be born part anything. If you are not a Jew you cannot accept the Jewish idea that you can be born a Jew or a part Jew. If you do accept it then you accept a precept of the jewish religion. Your religious beliefs are fine but do not expect anyone else to take them seriously.
Meaning do not expect anyone to take your claim of being part Jew seriously. The idea is absurd on its face. It is like being part Christian or part Muslim.
I have seen people like you before but never understood them. This is totally irrational concept. And please we all know there is no genetic connection between European and Asiatic Jews but the Ashkenazi Jews of Palestine and the Muslims of Palestine are the same people.
I have a long time atheist friend who insist he is a Jew. But I can never get a straight answer out of him to explain who he, as an atheist, can accept the Judaism belief that a person can be born a Jew.
If my mother were a Jew and if I were of another religion or an atheist I would not be part Jewish. Religion does not transfer by genes. Religion cannot be inherited. Therefore I could not be part Jew.
I despair of people unable to grasp this elementary concept.
No one is born a Christian. That only happens after being baptized.
By the rules of Judaism only women can be born Jews. Men have to be circumcised before being Jews. And then by Jewish law they must also have a Bar Mitzvah and a ritual Mikvah. And those are only the requirements if one has a Jewish mother. If a convert add "leading a Jewish life" as determined by Rabbis to the list.
Martin Edwards - 10 Dec 2006 08:53 GMT >>>> I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > requirements if one has a Jewish mother. If a convert add "leading a > Jewish life" as determined by Rabbis to the list. What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite. I had no idea that I would push one of your buttons. Try to read more carefully.
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Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:45 GMT > What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended > from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as > "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should > be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's > allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite. I had no idea that I > would push one of your buttons. Try to read more carefully. Then you would also say you are partially descended from Christians?
No one says that.
Therefore there is an intrinsic difference in saying one is descended from Jews.
Kendall K. Down - 10 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT > What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended > from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as > "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should > be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's > allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite. Well, you are certainly supporting someone who is a racist and anti-Semite. As I said, be careful about siding with Matt. He is not a rational person.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2006 09:07 GMT >> What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended >> from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as >> "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should >> be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's >> allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite.
> Well, you are certainly supporting someone who is a racist and anti-Semite. > As I said, be careful about siding with Matt. He is not a rational person. I am an anti-Zionist because it is a moral imperative to oppose murderers and thieves.
Anyone who equates Jews with Zionists hates Jews to call all Jews murderers and thieves.
Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 18:06 GMT > >>As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute > >>physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
> > By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean > > anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has > > come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that contradicts his > > irrational and racist world-view.
> That's balls, frankly. As a historian I don't follow his hard line and > deal in balance of probabilities, but he means exactly what is says, and > it is a valid point of view. To what does your condemnation apply? To the claim that Matt is a racist? You're on your own if you wish to say that he is not.
To the claim that Matt denies anything that contradicts his distorted world view? Again, you'll find yourself in a minority of one if you wish to defend Matt on those grounds.
So what about the claim in the first sentence? Well, the discovery of a large palace in Jerusalem is certainly physical - I mean, there's no ghosts involved or spirit stones or ectoplasmic pot sherds. It is also evidence: it may not be compelling, it may be disputed, but it is evidence. So there we have *physical* *evidence*, just as Matt constantly claims he wants.
So come on, what are you claiming is a valid point of view?
And be careful: your eagerness to defend sci.arc's leading anti-semite and racist will tar you with the same brush if you keep it up.
Ken Down
 Signature ================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
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Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 07:38 GMT >>>> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >>>> physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > To what does your condemnation apply? To the claim that Matt is a racist? > You're on your own if you wish to say that he is not. How about the claim that tales of magic and miracles and crazy people hearing a god talk to them being crucial to the narrative has ZERO probability of being other than myth?
> To the claim that Matt denies anything that contradicts his distorted world > view? Again, you'll find yourself in a minority of one if you wish to defend > Matt on those grounds. You are the one who agrees the Hebrews were expelled from Egypt for endemic leprosy.
> So what about the claim in the first sentence? Well, the discovery of a > large palace in Jerusalem is certainly physical That is not a true statement by anything released to the press. There is not such thing until there is a professional publication and the peer review process has accepted it as a palace. And then there is a long way to go before it is the palace of David which is not even in the newspaper claim.
Why are you such a silly sh.t who believes such nonsense published in a newspaper?
> - I mean, there's no ghosts > involved or spirit stones or ectoplasmic pot sherds. It is also evidence: it > may not be compelling, it may be disputed, but it is evidence. So there we > have *physical* *evidence*, just as Matt constantly claims he wants. There is no palace involved yet you silly little boy.
> So come on, what are you claiming is a valid point of view?
> And be careful: your eagerness to defend sci.arc's leading anti-semite and > racist will tar you with the same brush if you keep it up. The use of guilt by association with your lies about me. Why must you lie even after I have so clearly corrected you so many times?
Why is the best you can do lies?
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:35 GMT >>>>As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >>>>physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Ken Down I am careful, I assure you. Have you got any links about this supposed palace? Exact location, date?
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svo37 - 10 Dec 2006 10:07 GMT quit playing with your majestic self and give us some facts we should consider then, if you have or know of any. Otherwise gtf off to the ufo group where you belong! Nikto Baraada Nikto. /...
> > As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute > > physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > | http://www.diggingsonline.com | > ======================================================== Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:46 GMT > quit playing with your majestic self and give us some facts we > should consider then, if you have or know of any. Otherwise gtf > off to the ufo group where you belong! Nikto Baraada Nikto. Klatu Barado Nikto
hippo - 06 Dec 2006 16:02 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
> Ha'aretz, 1999 [.]
> It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the > injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too > threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye. This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for decades for political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular socialists as it competes with their political objectives.
Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the citadels at Troy and Mycenae, for example, were fortified, but not something one would gather from Homer. When viewed by a culture that is familiar with much later fortifications, Bronze Age walls are not impressive, and neither is the size of the 'cities' they defended. Famous Ugarit had a population estimated at only about 8000 souls. In a Bronze Age context, it was a 'city' and Bronze Age 'wars' often involved no more than a few hundred men and a 'fleet' might only contain twenty ships.
Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the megaron (king's hall) at Pylos, see how small it is, and balance what you see against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the importance of thinking in context. -the Troll
Kendall K. Down - 06 Dec 2006 18:08 GMT > Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. The > only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the megaron > (king's hall) at Pylos, see how small it is, and balance what you see > against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the > importance of thinking in context. -the Troll Quite so.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 07 Dec 2006 02:52 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >> Ha'aretz, 1999
> [.]
>> It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the >> injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too >> threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye.
> This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with Israeli secularists > who have been chipping away at the Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for > decades for political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular > socialists as it competes with their political objectives. This simply one more viewpoint on the absence of evidence.
> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed > orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and Bronze Age 'wars' often involved no more than a few hundred men and a > 'fleet' might only contain twenty ships. There is no evidence the OT was ever "oral" history.
> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. The > only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the megaron > (king's hall) at Pylos, see how small it is, and balance what you see > against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the > importance of thinking in context. -the Troll The religion is nothing more than quid pro quo of reward in this world in return for following arbitrary and capricious rules.
Those who wish to salvage the myths by minimalizing the stories fail to realize no one would put up with a ritual/taboo lifestyle for a crumby hilltop. No man would put us with circumcision for a crumby hilltop.
A crumby hilltop is not a sufficient reward for the multitudinous rules.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 02:21 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>>> Ha'aretz, 1999
>> [.] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > This simply one more viewpoint on the absence of evidence. No, it is consistent with Israeli secularists. I've been there and met them.
>> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed >> orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > There is no evidence the OT was ever "oral" history. There is no 'evidence' Homer was ever oral history. It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the whole 'tidier'.
>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. >> The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A crumby hilltop is not a sufficient reward for the multitudinous rules. A crumbly hilltop to you, a city, or palace, or refuge, or home and protection, to Priam, lovely Helen, or the shepherds and early kings of the OT. If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you have romantic visions about the Middle Ages you'd better unload them before this course begins. In those days northern Europeans sewed themselves into their clothes in the fall and didn't come out until spring. The men and boys occasionally bathed in rivers and streams, the women never bathed at all. Makes you wonder how we got here." Context, context, context. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 03:21 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >>> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> to secular socialists as it competes with their political objectives. >> This simply one more viewpoint on the absence of evidence.
> No, it is consistent with Israeli secularists. I've been there and met them. The absence of physical evidence is a fact not a secular issue.
>>> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed >>> orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> than a few hundred men and a 'fleet' might only contain twenty ships. >> There is no evidence the OT was ever "oral" history.
> There is no 'evidence' Homer was ever oral history. Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit to Homer for creating it.
> It is a peculiarity of > oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence of itself. We can presume > Homer used oral Bronze age material because there is no other way for it to > have passed down to him. Why would it have to be passed down to a contemporary of whatever the war was about?
> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed > from whole cloth, there would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than > we find and the whole 'tidier'. Even a cursory examination find it filled with internal contradictions. Even being told about its contents cannot fail to lead to rejecting it as entirely fiction due to its dependence upon magic and miracles and schizophrenics hearing voices at crucial junctures in the narrative.
>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. >>> The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> The religion is nothing more than quid pro quo of reward in this world in >> return for following arbitrary and capricious rules.
>> Those who wish to salvage the myths by minimalizing the stories fail to >> realize no one would put up with a ritual/taboo lifestyle for a crumby >> hilltop. No man would put us with circumcision for a crumby hilltop.
>> A crumby hilltop is not a sufficient reward for the multitudinous rules.
> A crumbly hilltop to you, a city, or palace, or refuge, or home and > protection, to Priam, lovely Helen, or the shepherds and early kings of the > OT. As established Arkies in Israel have noted, if cannot have been more than a hilltop else it would have been found.
The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of those gods required the ritual/taboo lifestyle and given what we know of what their worshipers were really like provided much greater rewards than a crumby hilltop.
Ignoring the bible stories we know much about the religions of the region and there are none as arbitrary and repressive as that presented in the bible so clearly the religion as presented would never have been followed by anyone of sound mind.
> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British > Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > occasionally bathed in rivers and streams, the women never bathed at all. > Makes you wonder how we got here." Context, context, context. -the Troll I would not look for Camelot at all any more than I would look for biblical Israel. Arthur and Camelot and all that goes with it are myths, period. It is the same with bibleland.
And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people and stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of any such people in anything from ancient times or found to this day.
We are left with the issue of a collection of myths and miracles having been shown to be nothing but myths. This totally negates the previous assumption that it was in fact a history of the region and people.
Now that that has been established attempts to salvage it are contrary to rational reasoning. Arguments such as "it could have happened this way" are refusing to accept the obvious that THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 05:19 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>>>> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed >>>> orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit > to Homer for creating it. You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral history for his Iliad and Odyssey. His description of Bronze Age equipment long out of use by the time he wrote it down makes any other possibility unlikely. Homer is credited with weaving the tale as we now have it from oral material with later Iron Age embellishments.
>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because >> there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. > > Why would it have to be passed down to a contemporary of whatever the war > was about? It had to be passed down orally because in the interim between the events of the Trojan war and Homer's time there was an intervening dark age during which writing was forgotten.
>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the whole [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > entirely fiction due to its dependence upon magic and miracles and > schizophrenics hearing voices at crucial junctures in the narrative. Yes, I agree it is filled with internal contradictions and why it couldn't have been of spontaneous invention. Homer is filled with contradictions for the same reason. In one line you have Bronze Age swords, shields, and armor, and the next Iron Age ones. They did not both coexist at the same time in history.
I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion.
>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > As established Arkies in Israel have noted, if cannot have been more than > a hilltop else it would have been found. Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not yet found it.
> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken > seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bible so clearly the religion as presented would never have been followed > by anyone of sound mind. I'm not in the business of debunking or defending religions or religious myth. I haven't the competence for either. I can say the OT is useful as a source if used with care. Even Egyptologists have found it useful.
>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British >> Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > biblical Israel. Arthur and Camelot and all that goes with it are myths, > period. It is the same with bibleland. I think the general consensus amongst historians is that Arthur probably did exist. Given the lack of evidence, they are not willing to say how much written about him is myth and how much is real. The same can probably be said about the biblical Israel.
> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people and > stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of any [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are refusing to accept the obvious that THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE IN THE > FIRST PLACE. I think you suffer with others who think in absolutes. In debate, if one of your arguments fails, your entire case collapses. It is far more accurate to say we don't know how much in the OT is real or how much is myth *if* we are striving for accuracy. -the Troll
Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 07:47 GMT > Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than > we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not > yet found it. Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims.
Ken Down
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hippo - 08 Dec 2006 19:08 GMT "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
> In message "hippo" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims. Worse, he is claiming that trained archaeologists are claiming it. Seems to me making inclusive statements like that would be a great way to get laughed out of the profession. The professionals I know are only willing to say, 'We have not yet found evidence of X century occupation.' -the Troll
Kendall K. Down - 09 Dec 2006 07:25 GMT > >> Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have > >> not yet found it.
> > Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims.
> Worse, he is claiming that trained archaeologists are claiming it. Seems to > me making inclusive statements like that would be a great way to get laughed > out of the profession. The professionals I know are only willing to say, 'We > have not yet found evidence of X century occupation.' -the Troll Very true - there are no limits to Matt's ignorance, stupidity or mendacity. However my comment was to underline your statement that "only a fool" would make such a claim.
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hippo - 09 Dec 2006 21:29 GMT "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
> In message "hippo" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > would > make such a claim. Yup. There is a team of archaeologists digging here at the founding site of the colony (Carolina). I was given a tour of their dig last week. They've uncovered several tiny houses - more the size of modern sheds, the outline of the defensive walls (the Indians were as feared as the Spanish), garden fences and so on. They hope eventually to recover the entire ca 10 acre site of 1670-80. It's a fascinating profession. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:38 GMT > "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > fences and so on. They hope eventually to recover the entire ca 10 acre site > of 1670-80. It's a fascinating profession. -the Troll And therefore things will be found in the future in the currently most dug place in the world things will be found to support the magic and miracles of the bible?
Is that supposed to be reasoning?
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 19:16 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
\ [.]
>> Yup. There is a team of archaeologists digging here at the founding site >> of the colony (Carolina). I was given a tour of their dig last week. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Is that supposed to be reasoning? If they are there, they will be found, but to the rational should only effect history and religion only to the extent of understanding context. I doubt if there will be proof of miracles. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2006 05:12 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > \ [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> place in the world things will be found to support the magic and miracles >> of the bible?
>> Is that supposed to be reasoning?
> If they are there, they will be found, but to the rational should only > effect history and religion only to the extent of understanding context. I > doubt if there will be proof of miracles. -the Troll There are no stories of interest without the magic and miracles and the schizophrenics. What do you expect will be found that will be so remarkably different from what has been found?
Remember, without them Exodus is "a handful of people left Egypt and arrived in Palestine ten days later." That is unquestionably a true statement but it has nothing to do with the OT.
So just what is it you think will be found that is of interest? There really were schizophrenics who heard a god talking to them? Absolutely certainly true. That there were leaders of hilltop clans? Again, certainly true.
We _know_ what the region was like in those days. There is so little to find there is no expectation of finding anything different from what has been found.
It is a region where few would waste their time and careers were it not for the OT stories and the religious and political beliefs connected with the region. There are only two sources of funds for digging in the region, the Israeli government and bible believers. No one else wastes the time. It is well known there was no indigenous culture of interest. Study one dirt farmer community you have studied them all.
The only remaining possibility is believing more digging even though it can not result in any significant increase in the percentage of land dug will eventually find something of interest regarding uninteresting stories of trivial, common events and facts. Why not dig up your backyard with similar faith?
Again I suggest you really believe there will be found some support for stories which can only be of interest if the magic and miracles were real.
hippo - 11 Dec 2006 15:00 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
> There are no stories of interest without the magic and miracles and the > schizophrenics. What do you expect will be found that will be so [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Again I suggest you really believe there will be found some support for > stories which can only be of interest if the magic and miracles were real. You're barking up the wrong tree again. I have no idea what will be found in the ground in future and don't care what it is so long as it is useful. Useful means something that leads to a better understanding of the history wherever it leads. Unlike you, I'm not a crusader, except for the discipline itself. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 08:53 GMT > "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > out of the profession. The professionals I know are only willing to say, 'We > have not yet found evidence of X century occupation.' -the Troll The fact is it does not exist until it is found, period.
You are making the same argument as those who still believe in Atlantis with equal sanity.
Lets see, Atlantis, Lemuria, Eden, Noah's Ark, the evil beings in the hollow earth, the nazi base in Antarctica ...
The list is endless for the believers who lack sanity.
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 15:22 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>> "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The list is endless for the believers who lack sanity. I'm not prejudging either way, because that's what it is, prejudgment. I am prepared to say that, given the present state of evidence, it looks like biblical scholarship will require considerable re-evaluation in the future. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 05:10 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >>> "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> Lets see, Atlantis, Lemuria, Eden, Noah's Ark, the evil beings in the >> hollow earth, the nazi base in Antarctica ...
>> The list is endless for the believers who lack sanity.
> I'm not prejudging either way, because that's what it is, prejudgment. I am > prepared to say that, given the present state of evidence, it looks like > biblical scholarship will require considerable re-evaluation in the > future. -the Troll The bible has already been shown to be totally false.
Yet you hope against all reason things will change.
UNTIL it changes the OT remains in the realm of myth.
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 19:23 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>> I'm not prejudging either way, because that's what it is, prejudgment. I >> am prepared to say that, given the present state of evidence, it looks [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > UNTIL it changes the OT remains in the realm of myth. Nothing is totally false unless it is *totally* false. You can't know it is because there is too much we don't know. The Iliad is replete with gods and goddesses interfering in the daily lives of men. That's clearly bullshit. It's description of Bronze Age warfare is correct. Therefore the Iliad is not totally false and can be used responsibly by historians.
I don't hope anything except that the blank spaces in our knowledge of history can some day be filled. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 08 Dec 2006 21:10 GMT >> Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than >> we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not >> yet found it. > >Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims. He has some precedent for this line of argument. I remember some years ago getting involved in an argument in sci.archaeology over whether or the norse may have had a wider presence in north america than L'anse aux Meadows. The argument was that as no undisputed norse artifacts had been found elsewhere in NA then clearly the norse had not been there.
It's the old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' argument and people seem to be able to choose which side they are on according to the topic. I'm sure Matt could argue the other way if it suited him.
Eric Stevens
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:26 GMT >>>Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than >>>we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Eric Stevens The point here is that prolonged and thorough investigation for over a century has not unearthed one gobbet of evidence for the tales in question.
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Martin Edwards - 08 Dec 2006 08:02 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > say we don't know how much in the OT is real or how much is myth *if* we are > striving for accuracy. -the Troll Mud, mud, glorious mud.
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Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 08:25 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [.] [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit >> to Homer for creating it.
> You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral > history for his Iliad and Odyssey. His description of Bronze Age equipment > long out of use by the time he wrote it down makes any other possibility > unlikely. Homer is credited with weaving the tale as we now have it from > oral material with later Iron Age embellishments. You may have other sources but the estimates of when he lived are not incongruent with the projected date of whatever the battle was. But you want to go that way, there is at this time ZERO evidence of any battle anything like Homer described against a city of Illium as he described it. Therefore there is no way to distinguish his poetry from myth.
Currently the believer community, which is down to about two people, have agreed they are at the right level but the city at that time was much too small to have been the Illium of the story. They are searching for a vanished "outer wall" at the same level which will match the story. So at the moment the Odyssey is in the category of myth.
>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >>> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because >>> there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. >> Why would it have to be passed down to a contemporary of whatever the war >> was about?
> It had to be passed down orally because in the interim between the events of > the Trojan war and Homer's time there was an intervening dark age during > which writing was forgotten. That is an amusing idea but there is no evidence such a period existed. Writing is continuous every place once it is started. There is no evidence of any such period ever existed any place in the world.
>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >>> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the whole [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> entirely fiction due to its dependence upon magic and miracles and >> schizophrenics hearing voices at crucial junctures in the narrative.
> Yes, I agree it is filled with internal contradictions and why it couldn't > have been of spontaneous invention. Homer is filled with contradictions for > the same reason. In one line you have Bronze Age swords, shields, and armor, > and the next Iron Age ones. They did not both coexist at the same time in > history. At least you are immune to the simple fact that anachronisms are killers to any claim of authenticity.
> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can you. > The best you can manage is to state an opinion. I can clearly say magic and miracles and crazy people are crucial to the narrative and therefore it cannot be other than fiction.
There is no magic. There are no miracles. Crazy people are not inspired by the gods. Therefore stories that depend upon them are fiction by definition.
You do not want to address the most obvious evidence that it is fiction.
>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> As established Arkies in Israel have noted, if cannot have been more than >> a hilltop else it would have been found.
> Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than > we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not > yet found it. The Arkies in Israel digging in Israel do not agree with you about Israel. I did not say all the ground in all the world. I said bibleland.
However you put your faith in something that might be found in the future. The fact is nothing has been found to date which supports biblical Israel so only an idiot would believe in a fictional work of magic and miracles and crazy people.
>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of >> those gods required the ritual/taboo lifestyle and given what we know of >> what their worshipers were really like provided much greater rewards than >> a crumby hilltop.
>> Ignoring the bible stories we know much about the religions of the region >> and there are none as arbitrary and repressive as that presented in the >> bible so clearly the religion as presented would never have been followed >> by anyone of sound mind.
> I'm not in the business of debunking or defending religions or religious > myth. I haven't the competence for either. I can say the OT is useful as a > source if used with care. Even Egyptologists have found it useful. As over a century ago modern archaeology was founded on REJECTING the bible as a source you are woefully behind the times. NOTHING has been found since then to change that rejection.
>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British >>> Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> biblical Israel. Arthur and Camelot and all that goes with it are myths, >> period. It is the same with bibleland.
> I think the general consensus amongst historians is that Arthur probably did > exist. Given the lack of evidence, they are not willing to say how much > written about him is myth and how much is real. The same can probably be > said about the biblical Israel. Who gives a rat's a.s about a consensus. There is evidence or there is not evidence. No evidence then no rational person accepts it. The same can be said about biblical Israel. There is no evidence therefore no rational person accepts its existence.
You are clearly not rational to believe in stories of magic and miracles and crazy people.
>> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people and >> stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of any >> such people in anything from ancient times or found to this day.
>> We are left with the issue of a collection of myths and miracles having >> been shown to be nothing but myths. This totally negates the previous >> assumption that it was in fact a history of the region and people.
>> Now that that has been established attempts to salvage it are contrary to >> rational reasoning. Arguments such as "it could have happened this way" >> are refusing to accept the obvious that THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE IN THE >> FIRST PLACE.
> I think you suffer with others who think in absolutes. In debate, if one of > your arguments fails, your entire case collapses. It is far more accurate to > say we don't know how much in the OT is real or how much is myth *if* we are > striving for accuracy. -the Troll I am correct in reciting you believe in stories of magic and miracles and crazy people to the extent you irrationally think there is some truth in them despite the total absence of physical evidence for anything of interest in the stories.
That is not an exaggeration or an absolute. It is an accurate description of your position.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 15:43 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>> You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral >> history for his Iliad and Odyssey. His description of Bronze Age [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > vanished "outer wall" at the same level which will match the story. So at > the moment the Odyssey is in the category of myth. Um, no. We're back to context again. The walls of Troy only surrounded the citadel just as they did at Mycenae, Athens, and most of the Greek Bronze Age cities that had walls of any kind. Your interpretation, and Homer's, of what Bronze Age walls and cities should have looked like are outside of a Bronze Age context and why I introduced the subject. Because the Trojan war, and Troy itself, were exaggerated by Homer does not mean the war didn't happen or that Troy wasn't a large and important place relative to other Bronze Age cities. Bronze Age 'cities' of the Aegean were more administrative centers than urban complexes. Often they contained little more than a palace, some store houses and workshops, and living quarters for a few soldiers, servants, and officials. Many had no walls at all. Troy must have looked quite large to a Bronze Age 'king' like Ajax whose 'palace' was only discovered as recently as 1999 on the island of Salamis. The Trojan war was probably not much more than a glorified pirate raid to us, but was every bit a war to those participating in it.
>>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >>>> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Writing is continuous every place once it is started. There is no evidence > of any such period ever existed any place in the world. To the contrary, there is no evidence of writing at all between the collapse of the Bronze Age city states of the Aegean until the early 8th century BCE. When the new writing appears, it is in a different and later form of Greek than that recorded in the Bronze Age linear 'B' script and in an entirely different script adopted from the Phoenicians. The intervening centuries (1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were massive cultural changes as well.
>>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >>>> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > At least you are immune to the simple fact that anachronisms are killers > to any claim of authenticity. It certainly can't be divinely inspired, at least in the form we have it, if that is what you mean.
>> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can >> you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You do not want to address the most obvious evidence that it is fiction. Parts may be fiction, parts may be history, parts are certainly borrowed from other cultures. You can't tar the whole with a wide brush.
>>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > so only an idiot would believe in a fictional work of magic and miracles > and crazy people. I don't put my 'faith' in anything. Most of the 'cities' in the OT have been found.
>>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >>> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > bible as a source you are woefully behind the times. NOTHING has been > found since then to change that rejection. Nonsense, the OT has helped validate ancient town/city names found in Egyptian sources and is useful to comparative linguists. Debunking the whole because of evident errors is childish.
>>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in >>>> Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > You are clearly not rational to believe in stories of magic and miracles > and crazy people. Claiming I believe in these things is your problem. I don't. The OT has been useful to historians and will continue to be useful to historians without validating its more outrageous claims or supporting the Jewish Religion.
>>> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people >>> and stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > That is not an exaggeration or an absolute. It is an accurate description > of your position. No, you are not correct. I don't believe in magic, miracles, or the rantings of crazy people. I am not religious. I look at the OT coldly as an ancient historical document and , just like every ancient historical document, to be used as a source with care. Additionally, I don't think much of book burners, especially ones who claim to champion reason. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 08 Dec 2006 21:15 GMT >"Matt Giwer" wrote in message --- snip ---
>>> It had to be passed down orally because in the interim between the events >>> of the Trojan war and Homer's time there was an intervening dark age [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >(1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were >massive cultural changes as well. The archaeological record also indicates that there was a marked drop in the population of Greece and that it took several centuries to build up again. Whatever happened was clearly traumatic.
--- snip ---
Eric Stevens
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 02:05 GMT "Eric Stevens" wrote in message
> --- snip --- > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > in the population of Greece and that it took several centuries to > build up again. Whatever happened was clearly traumatic. Yup. It looks like the king of Salamis abandoned his palace and moved with his people from the island to possibly Cyprus. Everything of value from his old palace was removed and there is no destruction level. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 09:27 GMT >> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > --- snip --- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> (1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were >> massive cultural changes as well.
> The archaeological record also indicates that there was a marked drop > in the population of Greece and that it took several centuries to > build up again. Whatever happened was clearly traumatic. Hellene culture runs from Greece north through Macedonia and east through Anatolia to the eastern side of the Bosporus where it merges with Mesopotamian culture. Saying Greece is the modern boundary of the nation does not reflect the reality of the time. Troy is described as a Hellenistic city given the temple defiled by Achilles(?).
We can go further and say the folks back then recognized the same gods and same architectural skills and same interest in learning all the way from Greece to Persia including a jog down to Egypt.
The point being isolating it to the modern peninsula called Greece does not reflect the ancient world.
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 12:40 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [.] [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> anything like Homer described against a city of Illium as he described it. >> Therefore there is no way to distinguish his poetry from myth.
>> Currently the believer community, which is down to about two people, have >> agreed they are at the right level but the city at that time was much too >> small to have been the Illium of the story. They are searching for a >> vanished "outer wall" at the same level which will match the story. So at >> the moment the Odyssey is in the category of myth.
> Um, no. We're back to context again. The walls of Troy only surrounded the > citadel just as they did at Mycenae, Athens, and most of the Greek Bronze > Age cities that had walls of any kind. Your interpretation, and Homer's, of > what Bronze Age walls and cities should have looked like are outside of a > Bronze Age context and why I introduced the subject. Cute but dead in the water. Achilles took a day to drag the body of Priam's son around the city walls. Therefore false. There are numbers of people given. They cannot have survived within either a citadel wall nor the Homeric wall for ten years.
> Because the Trojan war, > and Troy itself, were exaggerated by Homer does not mean the war didn't > happen or that Troy wasn't a large and important place relative to other > Bronze Age cities. It means you assume it really occurred and was exaggerated and that it not a rational assumption.
> Bronze Age 'cities' of the Aegean were more > administrative centers than urban complexes. Often they contained little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was probably not much more than a glorified pirate raid to us, but was every > bit a war to those participating in it. It is not a matter of looks it is a matter of details which cannot be true if exaggerated.
Once a thing is not true then it has lost all credence and it up to someone else to produce physical evidence. Nothing so far exists for Illium.
>>>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >>>>> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Writing is continuous every place once it is started. There is no evidence >> of any such period ever existed any place in the world.
> To the contrary, there is no evidence of writing at all between the collapse > of the Bronze Age city states of the Aegean until the early 8th century BCE. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were > massive cultural changes as well. You fail to recognize the extent of Hellene culture and prefer to think the three centuries on the peninsula of modern interest are all there was to it. You do not understand. There was no collapse in this wide region. Troy is recounted as a Hellene city.
>>>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >>>>> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> At least you are immune to the simple fact that anachronisms are killers >> to any claim of authenticity.
> It certainly can't be divinely inspired, at least in the form we have it, if > that is what you mean. I mean any anachronism makes the entire story worthless as it proves it was created after the fact without exception. It is the rule applied to everything but the OT. We reject Christian texts for any anachronism such as the Donation of Constantine. The rule is the rule. There are no exceptions because it is the OT. We reject forgeries from "OT" times for anachronisms. A single anachronism is an absolute cause for rejection.
We do NOT find anachronisms in other ancient writings including those of Homer. Therefore we do not reject them as later creations. That is a fact.
But you go further.
When we find a story of divine intervention making the story possible we reject it as myth. You make an exception for the OT when divine intervention is essential to the story. You refuse to reject it when in every other case of divine intervention such stories are rejected.
>>> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can >>> you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> definition. >> You do not want to address the most obvious evidence that it is fiction.
> Parts may be fiction, parts may be history, parts are certainly borrowed > from other cultures. You can't tar the whole with a wide brush. There is a very simple rule. There has to be corroboration. There is none for the OT. ALL of the known real history refutes it. What more do you want?
>>>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> so only an idiot would believe in a fictional work of magic and miracles >> and crazy people.
> I don't put my 'faith' in anything. Most of the 'cities' in the OT have been > found. None have been found that were not known when the Septuagint first appears. Several did not exist when the Septuagint says they existed. What more do you want? And the identification of most of those cities is bible based not intrinsic to the dig so you really do not have a leg to stand on here. You are mouthing without fact. A pretend atheist.
>>>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >>>> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> bible as a source you are woefully behind the times. NOTHING has been >> found since then to change that rejection.
> Nonsense, the OT has helped validate ancient town/city names found in > Egyptian sources and is useful to comparative linguists. Debunking the whole > because of evident errors is childish. The only city of interest is the city built AFTER the bible says it existed but well known i
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