Deconstructing the Walls of Jericho
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Matt Giwer - 06 Dec 2006 04:20 GMT Ha'aretz, 1999
A Journal of History, Geography, Language and Archaeology
Deconstructing the Walls of Jericho
By Professor Ze'ev Herzog, Tel Aviv University
Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.
What follows is a short account of the brief history of archaeology, with the emphasis on the crises and the big bang, so to speak, of the past decade. The critical question of this archaeological revolution has not yet trickled down into public consciousness, but it cannot be ignored.
Inventing the Bible stories
The archaeology of Palestine developed as a science at a relatively late date, in the late 19th and early 20th century, in tandem with the archaeology of the imperial cultures of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome. Those resource-intensive powers were the first target of the researchers, who were looking for impressive evidence from the past, usually in the service of the big museums in London, Paris and Berlin. That stage effectively passed over Palestine, with its fragmented geographical diversity. The conditions in ancient Palestine were inhospitable for the development of an extensive kingdom, and certainly no showcase projects such as the Egyptian shrines or the Mesopotamian palaces could have been established there. In fact, the archaeology of Palestine was not engendered at the initiative of museums but sprang from religious motives.
The main push behind archaeological research in Palestine was the country's relationship with the Holy Scriptures. The first excavators in Jericho and Shechem (Nablus) were biblical researchers who were looking for the remains of the cities cited in the Bible. Archaeology assumed momentum with the activity of William Foxwell Albright, who mastered the archeology, history and linguistics of the Land of Israel and the ancient Near East. Albright, an American whose father was a priest of Chilean descent, began excavating in Palestine in the 1920s. His declared approach was that archaeology was the principal scientific means to refute the critical claims against the historical veracity of the Bible stories, particularly those of the Wellhausen school in Germany.
The school of biblical criticism that developed in Germany beginning in the second half of the 19th century, of which Julian Wellhausen was a leading figure, challenged the historicity of the Bible stories and claimed that biblical historiography was formulated, and in large measure actually "invented," during the Babylonian exile. Bible scholars, the Germans in particular, claimed that the history of the Hebrews, as a consecutive series of events beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and proceeding through the move to Egypt, the enslavement and the exodus, and ending with the conquest of the land and the settlement of the tribes of Israel, was no more than a later reconstruction of events with a theological purpose.
Albright believed that the Bible is a historical document, which, although it had gone through several editing stages, nevertheless basically reflected the ancient reality. He was convinced that if the ancient remains of Palestine were uncovered, they would furnish unequivocal proof of the historical truth of the events relating to the Jewish people in its land.
The biblical archaeology that developed from Albright and his pupils brought about a series of extensive digs at the important biblical tells: Megiddo, Lachish, Gezer, Shechem (Nablus), Jericho, Jerusalem, Ai, Giveon, Beit She'an, Beit Shemesh, Hazor, Ta'anach and others. The way was straight and clear: every finding that was uncovered would contribute to the building of a harmonious picture of the past. The archaeologists, who enthusiastically adopted the biblical approach, set out on a quest to unearth the "biblical period": the period of the patriarchs, the Canaanite cities that were destroyed by the Israelites as they conquered the land, the boundaries of the 12 tribes, the sites of the settlement period, characterized by "settlement pottery," the "gates of Solomon" at Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer, "Solomon's stables" (or Ahab's), "King Solomon's mines" at Timna - and there are some who are still hard at work and have found Mount Sinai (at Mount Karkoum in the Negev) or Joshua's altar at Mount Ebal.
The crisis
Slowly, cracks began to appear in the picture. Paradoxically, a situation was created in which the glut of findings began to undermine the historical credibility of the biblical descriptions instead of reinforcing them. A crisis stage is reached when the theories within the framework of the general thesis are unable to solve an increasingly large number of anomalies. The explanations become ponderous and inelegant, and the pieces do not lock together smoothly. Here are a few examples of how the harmonious picture collapsed.
Patriarchal Age: The researchers found it difficult to reach agreement on which archaeological period matched the Patriarchal Age. When did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live? When was the Cave of Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron) bought in order to serve as the burial place for the patriarchs and the matriarchs? According to the biblical chronology, Solomon built the Temple 480 years after the exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). To that we have to add 430 years of the stay in Egypt (Exodus 12:40) and the vast lifetimes of the patriarchs, producing a date in the 21th century BCE for Abraham's move to Canaan.
However, no evidence has been unearthed that can sustain this chronology. Albright argued in the early 1960s in favor of assigning the wanderings of Abraham to the Middle Bronze Age (22nd-20th centuries BCE). However, Benjamin Mazar, the father of the Israeli branch of biblical archaeology, proposed identifying the historic background of the Patriarchal Age a thousand years later, in the 11th century BCE - which would place it in the "settlement period." Others rejected the historicity of the stories and viewed them as ancestral legends that were told in the period of the Kingdom of Judea. In any event, the consensus began to break down.
The exodus from Egypt, the wanderings in the desert and Mount Sinai: The many Egyptian documents that we have make no mention of the Israelites' presence in Egypt and are also silent about the events of the exodus. Many documents do mention the custom of nomadic shepherds to enter Egypt during periods of drought and hunger and to camp at the edges of the Nile Delta. However, this was not a solitary phenomenon: such events occurred frequently across thousands of years and were hardly exceptional.
Generations of researchers tried to locate Mount Sinai and the stations of the tribes in the desert. Despite these intensive efforts, not even one site has been found that can match the biblical account.
The potency of tradition has now led some researchers to "discover" Mount Sinai in the northern Hijaz or, as already mentioned, at Mount Karkoum in the Negev. These central events in the history of the Israelites are not corroborated in documents external to the Bible or in archaeological findings. Most historians today agree that at best, the stay in Egypt and the exodous occurred in a few families and that their private story was expanded and "nationalized" to fit the needs of theological ideology.
The conquest: One of the shaping events of the people of Israel in biblical historiography is the story of how the land was conquered from the Canaanites. Yet extremely serious difficulties have cropped up precisely in the attempts to locate the archaeological evidence for this story.
Repeated excavations by various expeditions at Jericho and Ai, the two cities whose conquest is described in the greatest detail in the Book of Joshua, have proved very disappointing. Despite the excavators' efforts, it emerged that in the late part of the 13th century BCE, at the end of the Late Bronze Age, which is the agreed period for the conquest, there were no cities in either tell, and of course no walls that could have been toppled. Naturally, explanations were offered for these anomalies. Some claimed that the walls around Jericho were washed away by rain, while others suggested that earlier walls had been used; and, as for Ai, it was claimed that the original story actually referred to the conquest of nearby Beit El and was transferred to Ai by later redactors.
Biblical scholars suggested a quarter of a century ago that the conquest stories be viewed as etiological legends and no more. But as more and more sites were uncovered and it emerged that the places in question died out or were simply abandoned at different times, the conclusion was bolstered that there is no factual basis for the biblical story about the conquest by Israelite tribes in a military campaign led by Joshua.
The Canaanite cities: The Bible magnifies the strength and the fortifications of the Canaanite cities that were conquered by the Israelites: "great cities with walls sky-high" (Deuteronomy 9:1). In practice, all the sites that have been uncovered turned up remains of unfortified settlements, which in most cases consisted of a few structures or the ruler's palace rather than a genuine city. The urban culture of Palestine in the Late Bronze Age disintegrated in a process that lasted hundreds of years and did not stem from military conquest. Moreover, the biblical description is inconsistent with the geopolitical reality in Palestine. Palestine was under Egyptian rule until the middle of the 12th century BCE. The Egyptians' administrative centers were located in Gaza, Yaffo and Beit She'an. Egyptian findings have also been discovered in many locations on both sides of the Jordan River. This striking presence is not mentioned in the biblical account, and it is clear that it was unknown to the author and his editors.
The archaeological findings blatantly contradict the biblical picture: the Canaanite cities were not "great," were not fortified and did not have "sky-high walls." The heroism of the conquerors, the few versus the many and the assistance of the God who fought for his people are a theological reconstruction lacking any factual basis.
Origin of the Israelites: The fusion of the conclusions drawn from the episodes relating to the stages in which the people of Israel emerged gave rise to a discussion of the bedrock question: the identity of the Israelites. If there is no evidence for the exodus from Egypt and the desert journey, and if the story of the military conquest of fortified cities has been refuted by archaeology, who, then, were these Israelites? The archaeological findings did corroborate one important fact: in the early Iron Age (beginning some time after 1200 BCE), the stage that is identified with the "settlement period," hundreds of small settlements were established in the area of the central hill region of the Land of Israel, inhabited by farmers who worked the land or raised sheep. If they did not come from Egypt, what is the origin of these settlers? Israel Finkelstein, professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, has proposed that these settlers were the pastoral shepherds who wandered in this hill area throughout the Late Bronze Age (graves of these people have been found, without settlements). According to his reconstruction, in the Late Bronze Age (which preceded the Iron Age) the shepherds maintained a barter economy of meat in exchange for grains with the inhabitants of the valleys. With the disintegration of the urban and agricultural system in the lowland, the nomads were forced to produce their own grains, and hence the incentive for fixed settlements arose.
The name "Israel" is mentioned in a single Egyptian document from the period of Merneptah, king of Egypt, dating from 1208 BCE: "Plundered is Canaan with every evil, Ascalon is taken, Gezer is seized, Yenoam has become as though it never was, Israel is desolated, its seed is not." Merneptah refers to the country by its Canaanite name and mentions several cities of the kingdom, along with a non-urban ethnic group. According to this evidence, the term "Israel" was given to one of the population groups that resided in Canaan toward the end of the Late Bronze Age, apparently in the central hill region, in the area where the Kingdom of Israel would later be established.
A kingdom with no name
The united monarchy: Archaeology was also the source that brought about the shift regarding the reconstruction of the reality in the period known as the "united monarchy" of David and Solomon. The Bible describes this period as the zenith of the political, military and economic power of the people of Israel in ancient times. In the wake of David's conquests, the empire of David and Solomon stretched from the Euprates River to Gaza ("For he controlled the whole region west of the Euphrates, from Tiphsah to Gaza, all the kings west of the Euphrates," 1 Kings 5:4). The archaeological findings at many sites show that the construction projects attributed to this period were meager in scope and power.
The three cities of Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer, which are mentioned among Solomon's construction enterprises, have been excavated extensively at the appropriate layers. Only about half of Hazor's upper section was fortified, covering an area of only 30 dunams (7.5 acres), out of a total area of 700 dunams which was settled in the Bronze Age. At Gezer there was apparently only a citadel surrounded by a casematewall covering a small area, while Megiddo was not fortified with a wall.
The picture becomes even more complicated in the light of the excavations conducted in Jerusalem, the capital of the united monarchy. Large sections of the city have been excavated over the past 150 years. The digs have turned up impressive remnants of the cities from the Middle Bronze Age and from Iron Age II (the period of the Kingdom of Judea). No remains of buildings have been found from the period of the united monarchy (even according to the agreed chronology), only a few pottery shards. Given the preservation of the remains from earlier and later periods, it is clear that Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon was a small city, perhaps with a small citadel for the king, but in any event it was not the capital of an empire as described in the Bible. This small chiefdom is the source of the "Beth David" title mentioned in later Aramean and Moabite inscriptions. The authors of the biblical account knew Jerusalem in the 8th century BCE, with its wall and the rich culture of which remains have been found in various parts of the city, and projected this picture back to the age of the united monarchy. Presumably Jerusalem acquired its central status after the destruction of Samaria, its northern rival, in 722 BCE.
The archaeological findings dovetail well with the conclusions of the critical school of biblical scholarship. David and Solomon were the rulers of tribal kingdoms that controlled small areas: the former in Hebron and the latter in Jerusalem. Concurrently, a separate kingdom began to form in the Samaria hills, which finds expression in the stories about Saul's kingdom. Israel and Judea were from the outset two separate, independent kingdoms, and at times were in an adversarial relationship. Thus, the great united monarchy is an imaginary historiosophic creation, which was composed during the period of the Kingdom of Judea at the earliest. Perhaps the most decisive proof of this is the fact that we do not know the name of this kingdom.
Jehovah and his consort: How many gods, exactly, did Israel have? Together with the historical and political aspects, there are also doubts as to the credibility of the information about belief and worship. The question about the date at which monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods: Jehovah and his Asherah. At two sites, Kuntiliet Ajrud in the southwestern part of the Negev hill region, and at Khirbet el-Kom in the Judea piedmont, Hebrew inscriptions have been found that mention "Jehovah and his Asherah," "Jehovah Shomron and his Asherah, "Jehovah Teman and his Asherah." The authors were familiar with a pair of gods, Jehovah and his consort Asherah, and send blessings in the couple's name. These inscriptions, from the 8th century BCE, raise the possibility that monotheism, as a state religion, is actually an innovation of the period of the Kingdom of Judea, following the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel.
The archaeology of the Land of Israel is completing a process that amounts to a scientific revolution in its field. It is ready to confront the findings of biblical scholarship and of ancient history. But at the same time, we are witnessing a fascinating phenomenon in which all this is simply ignored by the Israeli public. Many of the findings mentioned here have been known for decades. The professional literature in the spheres of archaeology, Bible and the history of the Jewish people has addressed them in dozens of books and hundreds of articles. Even if not all the scholars accept the individual arguments that inform the examples I cited, the majority have adopted their main points.
Nevertheless, these revolutionary views are not penetrating the public consciousness. About a year ago, my colleague, the historian Prof. Nadav Ne'eman, published an article in the Culture and Literature section of Ha'aretz entitled "To Remove the Bible from the Jewish Bookshelf," but there was no public outcry. Any attempt to question the reliability of the biblical descriptions is perceived as an attempt to undermine "our historic right to the land" and as shattering the myth of the nation that is renewing the ancient Kingdom of Israel. These symbolic elements constitute such a critical component of the construction of the Israeli identity that any attempt to call their veracity into question encounters hostility or silence. It is of some interest that such tendencies within the Israeli secular society go hand-in-hand with the outlook among educated Christian groups. I have found a similar hostility in reaction to lectures I have delivered abroad to groups of Christian bible lovers, though what upset them was the challenge to the foundations of their fundamentalist religious belief.
It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is willing to accept the principle of equal rights for women - but is not up to adopting the archaeological facts that shatter the biblical myth. The blow to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye.
© copyright 1999 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved
Kendall K. Down - 06 Dec 2006 07:10 GMT > Ha'aretz, 1999 It would, I suppose, be too much to expect Matt to grasp the concept that a discovery in 2005 trumps an article written in 1999. Still, I'll have a go:
Matt, back in 1921 it was correct to say "No undisturbed royal burial has ever been found in Egypt." In 1922 Tut's tomb was found. After that date only a complete idiot would claim that no undisturbed royal burial has ever been found in Egypt - look, here are all these experts who said so back in 1921, 1920, 1919 and earlier.
The article you have quoted is an accurate (if biased) summary of the state of things in 1999. It says nothing whatsoever about the situation in 2006.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 07 Dec 2006 02:53 GMT >> Ha'aretz, 1999 > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > been found in Egypt - look, here are all these experts who said so back in > 1921, 1920, 1919 and earlier.
> The article you have quoted is an accurate (if biased) summary of the state > of things in 1999. It says nothing whatsoever about the situation in 2006. As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
Kendall K. Down - 07 Dec 2006 07:30 GMT > As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute > physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that contradicts his irrational and racist world-view.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 03:22 GMT >> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >> physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
> By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean > anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has > come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that contradicts his > irrational and racist world-view. When your fellow believer actually publishes we can talk about exactly what she says in the paper.
Until then there is no physical evidence.
Martin Edwards - 08 Dec 2006 08:04 GMT >>As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >>physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ken Down That's balls, frankly. As a historian I don't follow his hard line and deal in balance of probabilities, but he means exactly what is says, and it is a valid point of view.
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Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 12:17 GMT >>> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact >>> constitute physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
>> By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean >> anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has >> come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that >> contradicts his >> irrational and racist world-view.
> That's balls, frankly. As a historian I don't follow his hard line and > deal in balance of probabilities, but he means exactly what is says, and > it is a valid point of view. If I am not mistaken probabilities in the interest of historians are to be between historical narratives. They are not to be between myth and historical narrative.
It is like Herodotus and Josephus. Given their methodology, if any, what is the likelihood their version is credible? Were the Hebrews, as Josephus said, really expelled from Egypt because of endemic leprosy? Not likely but no more likely than the current bible version.
Martin Edwards - 08 Dec 2006 17:04 GMT >>>> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact >>>> constitute physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Josephus said, really expelled from Egypt because of endemic leprosy? > Not likely but no more likely than the current bible version. I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here.
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Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 18:07 GMT > I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite?
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 07:33 GMT >> I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here.
> So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite? So you agree with the PRIEST Josephus that the Hebrews were expelled from Egypt for endemic leprosy? What might be your definition of antisemitic?
What is the probability that tales of magic and miracles and crazy people are true? Zero of course.
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:33 GMT >>I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. > > So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite? > > Ken Down I am part Jew and used to object to the "n" word when people looked back at me puzzled. Go and argue with another boy, you're not worth my time.
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Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 11:32 GMT >>> I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. >> So you also are an irrational racist and anti-semite?
> I am part Jew and used to object to the "n" word when people looked back > at me puzzled. Go and argue with another boy, you're not worth my time. You cannot be part anything unless you accept the religious belief that a person can be born part anything. If you are not a Jew you cannot accept the Jewish idea that you can be born a Jew or a part Jew. If you do accept it then you accept a precept of the jewish religion. Your religious beliefs are fine but do not expect anyone else to take them seriously.
Meaning do not expect anyone to take your claim of being part Jew seriously. The idea is absurd on its face. It is like being part Christian or part Muslim.
I have seen people like you before but never understood them. This is totally irrational concept. And please we all know there is no genetic connection between European and Asiatic Jews but the Ashkenazi Jews of Palestine and the Muslims of Palestine are the same people.
I have a long time atheist friend who insist he is a Jew. But I can never get a straight answer out of him to explain who he, as an atheist, can accept the Judaism belief that a person can be born a Jew.
If my mother were a Jew and if I were of another religion or an atheist I would not be part Jewish. Religion does not transfer by genes. Religion cannot be inherited. Therefore I could not be part Jew.
I despair of people unable to grasp this elementary concept.
No one is born a Christian. That only happens after being baptized.
By the rules of Judaism only women can be born Jews. Men have to be circumcised before being Jews. And then by Jewish law they must also have a Bar Mitzvah and a ritual Mikvah. And those are only the requirements if one has a Jewish mother. If a convert add "leading a Jewish life" as determined by Rabbis to the list.
Martin Edwards - 10 Dec 2006 08:53 GMT >>>> I was stating my approach. I do not disagree with what you say here. >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > requirements if one has a Jewish mother. If a convert add "leading a > Jewish life" as determined by Rabbis to the list. What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite. I had no idea that I would push one of your buttons. Try to read more carefully.
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Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:45 GMT > What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended > from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as > "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should > be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's > allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite. I had no idea that I > would push one of your buttons. Try to read more carefully. Then you would also say you are partially descended from Christians?
No one says that.
Therefore there is an intrinsic difference in saying one is descended from Jews.
Kendall K. Down - 10 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT > What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended > from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as > "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should > be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's > allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite. Well, you are certainly supporting someone who is a racist and anti-Semite. As I said, be careful about siding with Matt. He is not a rational person.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2006 09:07 GMT >> What is the matter with you? I am an atheist. I am partly descended >> from Jews. Nonetheless I do not believe that there is any such thing as >> "race" as most people understand it. I believe that the Israelis should >> be evacuated to New York. I was responding to another poster's >> allegation that I was a racist and an anti-Semite.
> Well, you are certainly supporting someone who is a racist and anti-Semite. > As I said, be careful about siding with Matt. He is not a rational person. I am an anti-Zionist because it is a moral imperative to oppose murderers and thieves.
Anyone who equates Jews with Zionists hates Jews to call all Jews murderers and thieves.
Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 18:06 GMT > >>As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute > >>physical evidence there has been no change since 1999.
> > By which we understand that by "physical evidence" Matt does not mean > > anything which is either physical or evidence. It's just a phrase he has > > come up with to sound rational but really deny anything that contradicts his > > irrational and racist world-view.
> That's balls, frankly. As a historian I don't follow his hard line and > deal in balance of probabilities, but he means exactly what is says, and > it is a valid point of view. To what does your condemnation apply? To the claim that Matt is a racist? You're on your own if you wish to say that he is not.
To the claim that Matt denies anything that contradicts his distorted world view? Again, you'll find yourself in a minority of one if you wish to defend Matt on those grounds.
So what about the claim in the first sentence? Well, the discovery of a large palace in Jerusalem is certainly physical - I mean, there's no ghosts involved or spirit stones or ectoplasmic pot sherds. It is also evidence: it may not be compelling, it may be disputed, but it is evidence. So there we have *physical* *evidence*, just as Matt constantly claims he wants.
So come on, what are you claiming is a valid point of view?
And be careful: your eagerness to defend sci.arc's leading anti-semite and racist will tar you with the same brush if you keep it up.
Ken Down
 Signature ================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
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Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 07:38 GMT >>>> As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >>>> physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > To what does your condemnation apply? To the claim that Matt is a racist? > You're on your own if you wish to say that he is not. How about the claim that tales of magic and miracles and crazy people hearing a god talk to them being crucial to the narrative has ZERO probability of being other than myth?
> To the claim that Matt denies anything that contradicts his distorted world > view? Again, you'll find yourself in a minority of one if you wish to defend > Matt on those grounds. You are the one who agrees the Hebrews were expelled from Egypt for endemic leprosy.
> So what about the claim in the first sentence? Well, the discovery of a > large palace in Jerusalem is certainly physical That is not a true statement by anything released to the press. There is not such thing until there is a professional publication and the peer review process has accepted it as a palace. And then there is a long way to go before it is the palace of David which is not even in the newspaper claim.
Why are you such a silly sh.t who believes such nonsense published in a newspaper?
> - I mean, there's no ghosts > involved or spirit stones or ectoplasmic pot sherds. It is also evidence: it > may not be compelling, it may be disputed, but it is evidence. So there we > have *physical* *evidence*, just as Matt constantly claims he wants. There is no palace involved yet you silly little boy.
> So come on, what are you claiming is a valid point of view?
> And be careful: your eagerness to defend sci.arc's leading anti-semite and > racist will tar you with the same brush if you keep it up. The use of guilt by association with your lies about me. Why must you lie even after I have so clearly corrected you so many times?
Why is the best you can do lies?
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:35 GMT >>>>As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute >>>>physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Ken Down I am careful, I assure you. Have you got any links about this supposed palace? Exact location, date?
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svo37 - 10 Dec 2006 10:07 GMT quit playing with your majestic self and give us some facts we should consider then, if you have or know of any. Otherwise gtf off to the ufo group where you belong! Nikto Baraada Nikto. /...
> > As nothing has been discovered since 1999 which does in fact constitute > > physical evidence there has been no change since 1999. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > | http://www.diggingsonline.com | > ======================================================== Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:46 GMT > quit playing with your majestic self and give us some facts we > should consider then, if you have or know of any. Otherwise gtf > off to the ufo group where you belong! Nikto Baraada Nikto. Klatu Barado Nikto
hippo - 06 Dec 2006 16:02 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
> Ha'aretz, 1999 [.]
> It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the > injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too > threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye. This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for decades for political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular socialists as it competes with their political objectives.
Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the citadels at Troy and Mycenae, for example, were fortified, but not something one would gather from Homer. When viewed by a culture that is familiar with much later fortifications, Bronze Age walls are not impressive, and neither is the size of the 'cities' they defended. Famous Ugarit had a population estimated at only about 8000 souls. In a Bronze Age context, it was a 'city' and Bronze Age 'wars' often involved no more than a few hundred men and a 'fleet' might only contain twenty ships.
Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the megaron (king's hall) at Pylos, see how small it is, and balance what you see against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the importance of thinking in context. -the Troll
Kendall K. Down - 06 Dec 2006 18:08 GMT > Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. The > only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the megaron > (king's hall) at Pylos, see how small it is, and balance what you see > against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the > importance of thinking in context. -the Troll Quite so.
Ken Down
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Matt Giwer - 07 Dec 2006 02:52 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >> Ha'aretz, 1999
> [.]
>> It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the >> injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too >> threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye.
> This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with Israeli secularists > who have been chipping away at the Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for > decades for political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular > socialists as it competes with their political objectives. This simply one more viewpoint on the absence of evidence.
> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed > orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and Bronze Age 'wars' often involved no more than a few hundred men and a > 'fleet' might only contain twenty ships. There is no evidence the OT was ever "oral" history.
> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. The > only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the megaron > (king's hall) at Pylos, see how small it is, and balance what you see > against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the > importance of thinking in context. -the Troll The religion is nothing more than quid pro quo of reward in this world in return for following arbitrary and capricious rules.
Those who wish to salvage the myths by minimalizing the stories fail to realize no one would put up with a ritual/taboo lifestyle for a crumby hilltop. No man would put us with circumcision for a crumby hilltop.
A crumby hilltop is not a sufficient reward for the multitudinous rules.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 02:21 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>>> Ha'aretz, 1999
>> [.] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > This simply one more viewpoint on the absence of evidence. No, it is consistent with Israeli secularists. I've been there and met them.
>> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed >> orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > There is no evidence the OT was ever "oral" history. There is no 'evidence' Homer was ever oral history. It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the whole 'tidier'.
>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. >> The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A crumby hilltop is not a sufficient reward for the multitudinous rules. A crumbly hilltop to you, a city, or palace, or refuge, or home and protection, to Priam, lovely Helen, or the shepherds and early kings of the OT. If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you have romantic visions about the Middle Ages you'd better unload them before this course begins. In those days northern Europeans sewed themselves into their clothes in the fall and didn't come out until spring. The men and boys occasionally bathed in rivers and streams, the women never bathed at all. Makes you wonder how we got here." Context, context, context. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 03:21 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >>> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> to secular socialists as it competes with their political objectives. >> This simply one more viewpoint on the absence of evidence.
> No, it is consistent with Israeli secularists. I've been there and met them. The absence of physical evidence is a fact not a secular issue.
>>> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed >>> orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> than a few hundred men and a 'fleet' might only contain twenty ships. >> There is no evidence the OT was ever "oral" history.
> There is no 'evidence' Homer was ever oral history. Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit to Homer for creating it.
> It is a peculiarity of > oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence of itself. We can presume > Homer used oral Bronze age material because there is no other way for it to > have passed down to him. Why would it have to be passed down to a contemporary of whatever the war was about?
> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed > from whole cloth, there would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than > we find and the whole 'tidier'. Even a cursory examination find it filled with internal contradictions. Even being told about its contents cannot fail to lead to rejecting it as entirely fiction due to its dependence upon magic and miracles and schizophrenics hearing voices at crucial junctures in the narrative.
>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to grind. >>> The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> The religion is nothing more than quid pro quo of reward in this world in >> return for following arbitrary and capricious rules.
>> Those who wish to salvage the myths by minimalizing the stories fail to >> realize no one would put up with a ritual/taboo lifestyle for a crumby >> hilltop. No man would put us with circumcision for a crumby hilltop.
>> A crumby hilltop is not a sufficient reward for the multitudinous rules.
> A crumbly hilltop to you, a city, or palace, or refuge, or home and > protection, to Priam, lovely Helen, or the shepherds and early kings of the > OT. As established Arkies in Israel have noted, if cannot have been more than a hilltop else it would have been found.
The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of those gods required the ritual/taboo lifestyle and given what we know of what their worshipers were really like provided much greater rewards than a crumby hilltop.
Ignoring the bible stories we know much about the religions of the region and there are none as arbitrary and repressive as that presented in the bible so clearly the religion as presented would never have been followed by anyone of sound mind.
> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British > Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > occasionally bathed in rivers and streams, the women never bathed at all. > Makes you wonder how we got here." Context, context, context. -the Troll I would not look for Camelot at all any more than I would look for biblical Israel. Arthur and Camelot and all that goes with it are myths, period. It is the same with bibleland.
And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people and stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of any such people in anything from ancient times or found to this day.
We are left with the issue of a collection of myths and miracles having been shown to be nothing but myths. This totally negates the previous assumption that it was in fact a history of the region and people.
Now that that has been established attempts to salvage it are contrary to rational reasoning. Arguments such as "it could have happened this way" are refusing to accept the obvious that THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 05:19 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>>>> Anyone familiar with Homer and other later written material once passed >>>> orally would have no problems with biblical 'exaggeration'. Only the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit > to Homer for creating it. You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral history for his Iliad and Odyssey. His description of Bronze Age equipment long out of use by the time he wrote it down makes any other possibility unlikely. Homer is credited with weaving the tale as we now have it from oral material with later Iron Age embellishments.
>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because >> there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. > > Why would it have to be passed down to a contemporary of whatever the war > was about? It had to be passed down orally because in the interim between the events of the Trojan war and Homer's time there was an intervening dark age during which writing was forgotten.
>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the whole [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > entirely fiction due to its dependence upon magic and miracles and > schizophrenics hearing voices at crucial junctures in the narrative. Yes, I agree it is filled with internal contradictions and why it couldn't have been of spontaneous invention. Homer is filled with contradictions for the same reason. In one line you have Bronze Age swords, shields, and armor, and the next Iron Age ones. They did not both coexist at the same time in history.
I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion.
>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > As established Arkies in Israel have noted, if cannot have been more than > a hilltop else it would have been found. Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not yet found it.
> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken > seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bible so clearly the religion as presented would never have been followed > by anyone of sound mind. I'm not in the business of debunking or defending religions or religious myth. I haven't the competence for either. I can say the OT is useful as a source if used with care. Even Egyptologists have found it useful.
>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British >> Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > biblical Israel. Arthur and Camelot and all that goes with it are myths, > period. It is the same with bibleland. I think the general consensus amongst historians is that Arthur probably did exist. Given the lack of evidence, they are not willing to say how much written about him is myth and how much is real. The same can probably be said about the biblical Israel.
> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people and > stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of any [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are refusing to accept the obvious that THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE IN THE > FIRST PLACE. I think you suffer with others who think in absolutes. In debate, if one of your arguments fails, your entire case collapses. It is far more accurate to say we don't know how much in the OT is real or how much is myth *if* we are striving for accuracy. -the Troll
Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 07:47 GMT > Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than > we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not > yet found it. Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims.
Ken Down
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hippo - 08 Dec 2006 19:08 GMT "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
> In message "hippo" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims. Worse, he is claiming that trained archaeologists are claiming it. Seems to me making inclusive statements like that would be a great way to get laughed out of the profession. The professionals I know are only willing to say, 'We have not yet found evidence of X century occupation.' -the Troll
Kendall K. Down - 09 Dec 2006 07:25 GMT > >> Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have > >> not yet found it.
> > Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims.
> Worse, he is claiming that trained archaeologists are claiming it. Seems to > me making inclusive statements like that would be a great way to get laughed > out of the profession. The professionals I know are only willing to say, 'We > have not yet found evidence of X century occupation.' -the Troll Very true - there are no limits to Matt's ignorance, stupidity or mendacity. However my comment was to underline your statement that "only a fool" would make such a claim.
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hippo - 09 Dec 2006 21:29 GMT "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
> In message "hippo" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > would > make such a claim. Yup. There is a team of archaeologists digging here at the founding site of the colony (Carolina). I was given a tour of their dig last week. They've uncovered several tiny houses - more the size of modern sheds, the outline of the defensive walls (the Indians were as feared as the Spanish), garden fences and so on. They hope eventually to recover the entire ca 10 acre site of 1670-80. It's a fascinating profession. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:38 GMT > "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > fences and so on. They hope eventually to recover the entire ca 10 acre site > of 1670-80. It's a fascinating profession. -the Troll And therefore things will be found in the future in the currently most dug place in the world things will be found to support the magic and miracles of the bible?
Is that supposed to be reasoning?
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 19:16 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
\ [.]
>> Yup. There is a team of archaeologists digging here at the founding site >> of the colony (Carolina). I was given a tour of their dig last week. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Is that supposed to be reasoning? If they are there, they will be found, but to the rational should only effect history and religion only to the extent of understanding context. I doubt if there will be proof of miracles. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2006 05:12 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > \ [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> place in the world things will be found to support the magic and miracles >> of the bible?
>> Is that supposed to be reasoning?
> If they are there, they will be found, but to the rational should only > effect history and religion only to the extent of understanding context. I > doubt if there will be proof of miracles. -the Troll There are no stories of interest without the magic and miracles and the schizophrenics. What do you expect will be found that will be so remarkably different from what has been found?
Remember, without them Exodus is "a handful of people left Egypt and arrived in Palestine ten days later." That is unquestionably a true statement but it has nothing to do with the OT.
So just what is it you think will be found that is of interest? There really were schizophrenics who heard a god talking to them? Absolutely certainly true. That there were leaders of hilltop clans? Again, certainly true.
We _know_ what the region was like in those days. There is so little to find there is no expectation of finding anything different from what has been found.
It is a region where few would waste their time and careers were it not for the OT stories and the religious and political beliefs connected with the region. There are only two sources of funds for digging in the region, the Israeli government and bible believers. No one else wastes the time. It is well known there was no indigenous culture of interest. Study one dirt farmer community you have studied them all.
The only remaining possibility is believing more digging even though it can not result in any significant increase in the percentage of land dug will eventually find something of interest regarding uninteresting stories of trivial, common events and facts. Why not dig up your backyard with similar faith?
Again I suggest you really believe there will be found some support for stories which can only be of interest if the magic and miracles were real.
hippo - 11 Dec 2006 15:00 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
> There are no stories of interest without the magic and miracles and the > schizophrenics. What do you expect will be found that will be so [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Again I suggest you really believe there will be found some support for > stories which can only be of interest if the magic and miracles were real. You're barking up the wrong tree again. I have no idea what will be found in the ground in future and don't care what it is so long as it is useful. Useful means something that leads to a better understanding of the history wherever it leads. Unlike you, I'm not a crusader, except for the discipline itself. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 08:53 GMT > "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > out of the profession. The professionals I know are only willing to say, 'We > have not yet found evidence of X century occupation.' -the Troll The fact is it does not exist until it is found, period.
You are making the same argument as those who still believe in Atlantis with equal sanity.
Lets see, Atlantis, Lemuria, Eden, Noah's Ark, the evil beings in the hollow earth, the nazi base in Antarctica ...
The list is endless for the believers who lack sanity.
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 15:22 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>> "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The list is endless for the believers who lack sanity. I'm not prejudging either way, because that's what it is, prejudgment. I am prepared to say that, given the present state of evidence, it looks like biblical scholarship will require considerable re-evaluation in the future. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 05:10 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >>> "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> Lets see, Atlantis, Lemuria, Eden, Noah's Ark, the evil beings in the >> hollow earth, the nazi base in Antarctica ...
>> The list is endless for the believers who lack sanity.
> I'm not prejudging either way, because that's what it is, prejudgment. I am > prepared to say that, given the present state of evidence, it looks like > biblical scholarship will require considerable re-evaluation in the > future. -the Troll The bible has already been shown to be totally false.
Yet you hope against all reason things will change.
UNTIL it changes the OT remains in the realm of myth.
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 19:23 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>> I'm not prejudging either way, because that's what it is, prejudgment. I >> am prepared to say that, given the present state of evidence, it looks [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > UNTIL it changes the OT remains in the realm of myth. Nothing is totally false unless it is *totally* false. You can't know it is because there is too much we don't know. The Iliad is replete with gods and goddesses interfering in the daily lives of men. That's clearly bullshit. It's description of Bronze Age warfare is correct. Therefore the Iliad is not totally false and can be used responsibly by historians.
I don't hope anything except that the blank spaces in our knowledge of history can some day be filled. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 08 Dec 2006 21:10 GMT >> Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than >> we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not >> yet found it. > >Oddly, that is precisely what Matt claims. He has some precedent for this line of argument. I remember some years ago getting involved in an argument in sci.archaeology over whether or the norse may have had a wider presence in north america than L'anse aux Meadows. The argument was that as no undisputed norse artifacts had been found elsewhere in NA then clearly the norse had not been there.
It's the old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' argument and people seem to be able to choose which side they are on according to the topic. I'm sure Matt could argue the other way if it suited him.
Eric Stevens
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:26 GMT >>>Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than >>>we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Eric Stevens The point here is that prolonged and thorough investigation for over a century has not unearthed one gobbet of evidence for the tales in question.
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Martin Edwards - 08 Dec 2006 08:02 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > say we don't know how much in the OT is real or how much is myth *if* we are > striving for accuracy. -the Troll Mud, mud, glorious mud.
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Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 08:25 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [.] [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit >> to Homer for creating it.
> You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral > history for his Iliad and Odyssey. His description of Bronze Age equipment > long out of use by the time he wrote it down makes any other possibility > unlikely. Homer is credited with weaving the tale as we now have it from > oral material with later Iron Age embellishments. You may have other sources but the estimates of when he lived are not incongruent with the projected date of whatever the battle was. But you want to go that way, there is at this time ZERO evidence of any battle anything like Homer described against a city of Illium as he described it. Therefore there is no way to distinguish his poetry from myth.
Currently the believer community, which is down to about two people, have agreed they are at the right level but the city at that time was much too small to have been the Illium of the story. They are searching for a vanished "outer wall" at the same level which will match the story. So at the moment the Odyssey is in the category of myth.
>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >>> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because >>> there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. >> Why would it have to be passed down to a contemporary of whatever the war >> was about?
> It had to be passed down orally because in the interim between the events of > the Trojan war and Homer's time there was an intervening dark age during > which writing was forgotten. That is an amusing idea but there is no evidence such a period existed. Writing is continuous every place once it is started. There is no evidence of any such period ever existed any place in the world.
>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >>> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the whole [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> entirely fiction due to its dependence upon magic and miracles and >> schizophrenics hearing voices at crucial junctures in the narrative.
> Yes, I agree it is filled with internal contradictions and why it couldn't > have been of spontaneous invention. Homer is filled with contradictions for > the same reason. In one line you have Bronze Age swords, shields, and armor, > and the next Iron Age ones. They did not both coexist at the same time in > history. At least you are immune to the simple fact that anachronisms are killers to any claim of authenticity.
> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can you. > The best you can manage is to state an opinion. I can clearly say magic and miracles and crazy people are crucial to the narrative and therefore it cannot be other than fiction.
There is no magic. There are no miracles. Crazy people are not inspired by the gods. Therefore stories that depend upon them are fiction by definition.
You do not want to address the most obvious evidence that it is fiction.
>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> As established Arkies in Israel have noted, if cannot have been more than >> a hilltop else it would have been found.
> Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than > we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed because we have not > yet found it. The Arkies in Israel digging in Israel do not agree with you about Israel. I did not say all the ground in all the world. I said bibleland.
However you put your faith in something that might be found in the future. The fact is nothing has been found to date which supports biblical Israel so only an idiot would believe in a fictional work of magic and miracles and crazy people.
>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of >> those gods required the ritual/taboo lifestyle and given what we know of >> what their worshipers were really like provided much greater rewards than >> a crumby hilltop.
>> Ignoring the bible stories we know much about the religions of the region >> and there are none as arbitrary and repressive as that presented in the >> bible so clearly the religion as presented would never have been followed >> by anyone of sound mind.
> I'm not in the business of debunking or defending religions or religious > myth. I haven't the competence for either. I can say the OT is useful as a > source if used with care. Even Egyptologists have found it useful. As over a century ago modern archaeology was founded on REJECTING the bible as a source you are woefully behind the times. NOTHING has been found since then to change that rejection.
>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British >>> Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, if any of you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> biblical Israel. Arthur and Camelot and all that goes with it are myths, >> period. It is the same with bibleland.
> I think the general consensus amongst historians is that Arthur probably did > exist. Given the lack of evidence, they are not willing to say how much > written about him is myth and how much is real. The same can probably be > said about the biblical Israel. Who gives a rat's a.s about a consensus. There is evidence or there is not evidence. No evidence then no rational person accepts it. The same can be said about biblical Israel. There is no evidence therefore no rational person accepts its existence.
You are clearly not rational to believe in stories of magic and miracles and crazy people.
>> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people and >> stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of any >> such people in anything from ancient times or found to this day.
>> We are left with the issue of a collection of myths and miracles having >> been shown to be nothing but myths. This totally negates the previous >> assumption that it was in fact a history of the region and people.
>> Now that that has been established attempts to salvage it are contrary to >> rational reasoning. Arguments such as "it could have happened this way" >> are refusing to accept the obvious that THERE IS NOTHING TO SALVAGE IN THE >> FIRST PLACE.
> I think you suffer with others who think in absolutes. In debate, if one of > your arguments fails, your entire case collapses. It is far more accurate to > say we don't know how much in the OT is real or how much is myth *if* we are > striving for accuracy. -the Troll I am correct in reciting you believe in stories of magic and miracles and crazy people to the extent you irrationally think there is some truth in them despite the total absence of physical evidence for anything of interest in the stories.
That is not an exaggeration or an absolute. It is an accurate description of your position.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 15:43 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>> You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral >> history for his Iliad and Odyssey. His description of Bronze Age [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > vanished "outer wall" at the same level which will match the story. So at > the moment the Odyssey is in the category of myth. Um, no. We're back to context again. The walls of Troy only surrounded the citadel just as they did at Mycenae, Athens, and most of the Greek Bronze Age cities that had walls of any kind. Your interpretation, and Homer's, of what Bronze Age walls and cities should have looked like are outside of a Bronze Age context and why I introduced the subject. Because the Trojan war, and Troy itself, were exaggerated by Homer does not mean the war didn't happen or that Troy wasn't a large and important place relative to other Bronze Age cities. Bronze Age 'cities' of the Aegean were more administrative centers than urban complexes. Often they contained little more than a palace, some store houses and workshops, and living quarters for a few soldiers, servants, and officials. Many had no walls at all. Troy must have looked quite large to a Bronze Age 'king' like Ajax whose 'palace' was only discovered as recently as 1999 on the island of Salamis. The Trojan war was probably not much more than a glorified pirate raid to us, but was every bit a war to those participating in it.
>>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >>>> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Writing is continuous every place once it is started. There is no evidence > of any such period ever existed any place in the world. To the contrary, there is no evidence of writing at all between the collapse of the Bronze Age city states of the Aegean until the early 8th century BCE. When the new writing appears, it is in a different and later form of Greek than that recorded in the Bronze Age linear 'B' script and in an entirely different script adopted from the Phoenicians. The intervening centuries (1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were massive cultural changes as well.
>>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >>>> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > At least you are immune to the simple fact that anachronisms are killers > to any claim of authenticity. It certainly can't be divinely inspired, at least in the form we have it, if that is what you mean.
>> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can >> you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You do not want to address the most obvious evidence that it is fiction. Parts may be fiction, parts may be history, parts are certainly borrowed from other cultures. You can't tar the whole with a wide brush.
>>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > so only an idiot would believe in a fictional work of magic and miracles > and crazy people. I don't put my 'faith' in anything. Most of the 'cities' in the OT have been found.
>>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >>> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > bible as a source you are woefully behind the times. NOTHING has been > found since then to change that rejection. Nonsense, the OT has helped validate ancient town/city names found in Egyptian sources and is useful to comparative linguists. Debunking the whole because of evident errors is childish.
>>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in >>>> Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > You are clearly not rational to believe in stories of magic and miracles > and crazy people. Claiming I believe in these things is your problem. I don't. The OT has been useful to historians and will continue to be useful to historians without validating its more outrageous claims or supporting the Jewish Religion.
>>> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people >>> and stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > That is not an exaggeration or an absolute. It is an accurate description > of your position. No, you are not correct. I don't believe in magic, miracles, or the rantings of crazy people. I am not religious. I look at the OT coldly as an ancient historical document and , just like every ancient historical document, to be used as a source with care. Additionally, I don't think much of book burners, especially ones who claim to champion reason. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 08 Dec 2006 21:15 GMT >"Matt Giwer" wrote in message --- snip ---
>>> It had to be passed down orally because in the interim between the events >>> of the Trojan war and Homer's time there was an intervening dark age [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >(1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were >massive cultural changes as well. The archaeological record also indicates that there was a marked drop in the population of Greece and that it took several centuries to build up again. Whatever happened was clearly traumatic.
--- snip ---
Eric Stevens
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 02:05 GMT "Eric Stevens" wrote in message
> --- snip --- > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > in the population of Greece and that it took several centuries to > build up again. Whatever happened was clearly traumatic. Yup. It looks like the king of Salamis abandoned his palace and moved with his people from the island to possibly Cyprus. Everything of value from his old palace was removed and there is no destruction level. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 09:27 GMT >> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > --- snip --- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> (1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were >> massive cultural changes as well.
> The archaeological record also indicates that there was a marked drop > in the population of Greece and that it took several centuries to > build up again. Whatever happened was clearly traumatic. Hellene culture runs from Greece north through Macedonia and east through Anatolia to the eastern side of the Bosporus where it merges with Mesopotamian culture. Saying Greece is the modern boundary of the nation does not reflect the reality of the time. Troy is described as a Hellenistic city given the temple defiled by Achilles(?).
We can go further and say the folks back then recognized the same gods and same architectural skills and same interest in learning all the way from Greece to Persia including a jog down to Egypt.
The point being isolating it to the modern peninsula called Greece does not reflect the ancient world.
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 12:40 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [.] [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> anything like Homer described against a city of Illium as he described it. >> Therefore there is no way to distinguish his poetry from myth.
>> Currently the believer community, which is down to about two people, have >> agreed they are at the right level but the city at that time was much too >> small to have been the Illium of the story. They are searching for a >> vanished "outer wall" at the same level which will match the story. So at >> the moment the Odyssey is in the category of myth.
> Um, no. We're back to context again. The walls of Troy only surrounded the > citadel just as they did at Mycenae, Athens, and most of the Greek Bronze > Age cities that had walls of any kind. Your interpretation, and Homer's, of > what Bronze Age walls and cities should have looked like are outside of a > Bronze Age context and why I introduced the subject. Cute but dead in the water. Achilles took a day to drag the body of Priam's son around the city walls. Therefore false. There are numbers of people given. They cannot have survived within either a citadel wall nor the Homeric wall for ten years.
> Because the Trojan war, > and Troy itself, were exaggerated by Homer does not mean the war didn't > happen or that Troy wasn't a large and important place relative to other > Bronze Age cities. It means you assume it really occurred and was exaggerated and that it not a rational assumption.
> Bronze Age 'cities' of the Aegean were more > administrative centers than urban complexes. Often they contained little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was probably not much more than a glorified pirate raid to us, but was every > bit a war to those participating in it. It is not a matter of looks it is a matter of details which cannot be true if exaggerated.
Once a thing is not true then it has lost all credence and it up to someone else to produce physical evidence. Nothing so far exists for Illium.
>>>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence >>>>> of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age material because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Writing is continuous every place once it is started. There is no evidence >> of any such period ever existed any place in the world.
> To the contrary, there is no evidence of writing at all between the collapse > of the Bronze Age city states of the Aegean until the early 8th century BCE. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (1100-800 BCE) were quite dark as far as literacy was concerned. There were > massive cultural changes as well. You fail to recognize the extent of Hellene culture and prefer to think the three centuries on the peninsula of modern interest are all there was to it. You do not understand. There was no collapse in this wide region. Troy is recounted as a Hellene city.
>>>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, there >>>>> would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> At least you are immune to the simple fact that anachronisms are killers >> to any claim of authenticity.
> It certainly can't be divinely inspired, at least in the form we have it, if > that is what you mean. I mean any anachronism makes the entire story worthless as it proves it was created after the fact without exception. It is the rule applied to everything but the OT. We reject Christian texts for any anachronism such as the Donation of Constantine. The rule is the rule. There are no exceptions because it is the OT. We reject forgeries from "OT" times for anachronisms. A single anachronism is an absolute cause for rejection.
We do NOT find anachronisms in other ancient writings including those of Homer. Therefore we do not reject them as later creations. That is a fact.
But you go further.
When we find a story of divine intervention making the story possible we reject it as myth. You make an exception for the OT when divine intervention is essential to the story. You refuse to reject it when in every other case of divine intervention such stories are rejected.
>>> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can >>> you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> definition. >> You do not want to address the most obvious evidence that it is fiction.
> Parts may be fiction, parts may be history, parts are certainly borrowed > from other cultures. You can't tar the whole with a wide brush. There is a very simple rule. There has to be corroboration. There is none for the OT. ALL of the known real history refutes it. What more do you want?
>>>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand in [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> so only an idiot would believe in a fictional work of magic and miracles >> and crazy people.
> I don't put my 'faith' in anything. Most of the 'cities' in the OT have been > found. None have been found that were not known when the Septuagint first appears. Several did not exist when the Septuagint says they existed. What more do you want? And the identification of most of those cities is bible based not intrinsic to the dig so you really do not have a leg to stand on here. You are mouthing without fact. A pretend atheist.
>>>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >>>> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> bible as a source you are woefully behind the times. NOTHING has been >> found since then to change that rejection.
> Nonsense, the OT has helped validate ancient town/city names found in > Egyptian sources and is useful to comparative linguists. Debunking the whole > because of evident errors is childish. The only city of interest is the city built AFTER the bible says it existed but well known in Septuagint times. The fact is even one anachronism in any other source but the OT discredits the entire document. That is the rule everyone uses in every other context. So please tell me what other cases there are exceptions for anachronisms or why you insist the OT be given a miss for anachronisms. The ball is in your court.
>>>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in >>>>> Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> said about biblical Israel. There is no evidence therefore no rational >> person accepts its existence.
>> You are clearly not rational to believe in stories of magic and miracles >> and crazy people.
> Claiming I believe in these things is your problem. I don't. The OT has been > useful to historians and will continue to be useful to historians without > validating its more outrageous claims or supporting the Jewish Religion. Excuse but if you remove all the magic and miracles from Exodus you have the following.
"A handful of people left Egypt and about ten days later arrived in the Egyptian land of Palestine."
Where do you find history in the bible after the magic and miracles are removed?
Please tell me where there is any history in Exodus?
>>>> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people >>>> and stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> them despite the total absence of physical evidence for anything of >> interest in the stories.
>> That is not an exaggeration or an absolute. It is an accurate description >> of your position.
> No, you are not correct. I don't believe in magic, miracles, or the rantings > of crazy people. I am not religious. I look at the OT coldly as an ancient > historical document and , just like every ancient historical document, to be > used as a source with care. Additionally, I don't think much of book > burners, especially ones who claim to champion reason. -the Troll But you do give credence to stories which are so clearly fabricated on their face that no one can separate find any reliable fact in the fiction and all research has found NO fact in the fiction.
So take this opportunity to recite exactly what fact you are talking about.
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 17:16 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>> Um, no. We're back to context again. The walls of Troy only surrounded >> the citadel just as they did at Mycenae, Athens, and most of the Greek [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > people given. They cannot have survived within either a citadel wall nor > the Homeric wall for ten years. Have you seen the terrain at Troy? No, probably not. It isn't conveniently flat and the citadel was surrounded by houses built outside the walls. These were not wooden houses that could be burned, but built with walls of mud brick and not easily removed. The circuit around the citadel, abandoned houses, and terrain features, all outside of bowshot, would have been considerable, and because of the terrain, not easily traversed by a chariot - certainly not at any speed. The numbers of men engaged were exaggerated to make a better story.
>> Because the Trojan war, and Troy itself, were exaggerated by Homer does >> not mean the war didn't happen or that Troy wasn't a large and important >> place relative to other Bronze Age cities. > > It means you assume it really occurred and was exaggerated and that it not > a rational assumption. It's the only assumption possible given the evidence on the site.
>> Bronze Age 'cities' of the Aegean were more administrative centers than >> urban complexes. Often they contained little more than a palace, some [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > someone else to produce physical evidence. Nothing so far exists for > Illium. That's complete nonsense. In the time of Schliemann, the very existence of Troy was doubted. Now it is not. At first Schiemann's identification of the mound of Hissarlik as Troy was doubted, now it isn't. Schliemann identified the site from Homer's description. Modern evaluation of the effects on coastlines by river silting reinforces his description of the site. As I have said, the description of Bronze Age warriors is correct (verified by archaeological remains) and so is his description of Iron Age warriors. They just didn't coexist at the same time. Realizing the limitations of Homer does not negate his value to historians.
>>>>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible >>>>>> evidence of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > to it. You do not understand. There was no collapse in this wide region. > Troy is recounted as a Hellene city. It's your history failing. The culture of the Greek Dark Ages changed almost completely, although not everywhere at the same time. Literacy did not survive, the old art, craft, and architecture styles were forgotten, and warfare and armaments were transformed.
>>>>>> We can presume the same for the OT. If composed from whole cloth, >>>>>> there would be far fewer mistakes and contradictions than we find and [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > intervention is essential to the story. You refuse to reject it when in > every other case of divine intervention such stories are rejected. Nonsense, Homer is filled with anachronisms and why I brought him into the discussion. Homer took oral history and wrote it down without ever having seen Troy, the Bronze Age culture it described, or the weapons used. He faithfully included later Iron Age material that had been added in the interim because he could not separate one from the other. From hindsight and with access to archaeological remains, we can see the differences easily. Homer could not. That does not mean Homer has no value to historians.
>>>> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can >>>> you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > for the OT. ALL of the known real history refutes it. What more do you > want? There are no simple rules in the study of histiry, no absolutes, no black and white. That crap is for mathematicians and children. Grim showed us that even fairy tales and myth have value to historians. No ancient writing is useless.
>>>>>>>> Archaeology can be 'pushed' from both sides by folk with axes to >>>>>>>> grind. The only way to understand how silly it all is, is to stand [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > based not intrinsic to the dig so you really do not have a leg to stand on > here. You are mouthing without fact. A pretend atheist. That is a stupid remark. I am not religious and have no faith in the OT and never had as a religious document. To a non-believer, the OT is nothing but an historic document.
>>>>> The issue is quite clear here. If the bible stories are to be taken >>>>> seriously the people had many gods to choose from and often did. None [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > what other cases there are exceptions for anachronisms or why you insist > the OT be given a miss for anachronisms. The ball is in your court. I have dealt with that nonsense above. Egyptologists and Assyrologists have used the OT for years to flesh out city names found in inscriptions. That alone is useful.
>>>>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in >>>>>> Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Please tell me where there is any history in Exodus? Not much, but the OT isn't all Exodus.
>>>>> And you still face the problem of the sudden appearance of the people >>>>> and stories around 200BC as witnessed by the total absence of mention [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > So take this opportunity to recite exactly what fact you are talking > about. There is useful information in every ancient text. If nothing else the style in which it is written is important. In the case of the OT, the language is important to linguists, geographic details to historians and geographers, and so on. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 09 Dec 2006 20:54 GMT >"Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >It's the only assumption possible given the evidence on the site. ... evidence on the *assumed* site.
>>> Bronze Age 'cities' of the Aegean were more administrative centers than >>> urban complexes. Often they contained little more than a palace, some [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Troy was doubted. Now it is not. At first Schiemann's identification of the >mound of Hissarlik as Troy was doubted, now it isn't. It is now heretical to doubt that Hissarlik is Troy. Unfortunately sustained belief is not enough to make an initialy doubtful claim become true.
>Schliemann identified >the site from Homer's description. He forced it to fit. The wider geography of the voyages of the Odysseys cannot possibly fit either Hissarlik or the wider region.
>Modern evaluation of the effects on >coastlines by river silting reinforces his description of the site. As I >have said, the description of Bronze Age warriors is correct (verified by >archaeological remains) and so is his description of Iron Age warriors. They >just didn't coexist at the same time. Realizing the limitations of Homer >does not negate his value to historians. --- snip ----
Eric Stevens
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 21:55 GMT "Eric Stevens" wrote in message
[.]
>>It's the only assumption possible given the evidence on the site. > > ... evidence on the *assumed* site. Chuckle, we agree with the later Greeks who thought it was.
[.]
>>That's complete nonsense. In the time of Schliemann, the very existence of >>Troy was doubted. Now it is not. At first Schiemann's identification of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sustained belief is not enough to make an initialy doubtful claim > become true. You are right, continued skepticism is always best.
>>Schliemann identified >>the site from Homer's description. > > He forced it to fit. The wider geography of the voyages of the > Odysseys cannot possibly fit either Hissarlik or the wider region. There isn't much doubt these days. I've seen the reconstruction of the ancient coastline. Bronze Age Hissarlik had the splendid harbor and optimum location needed to control the straits. If it wasn't Troy, it was a hefty competitor. Then there is explaining away the later Greek identification of the site the nearby tumuli, and Tenedos is where it is supposed to be. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 09 Dec 2006 22:58 GMT >"Eric Stevens" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >the site the nearby tumuli, and Tenedos is where it is supposed to be. -the >Troll The only way to exclude doubt is to stop thinking about either the voyages or the list of ships. Homer doesn't remotely fit the marine geography of Greece.
Eric Stevens
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 01:40 GMT "Eric Stevens" wrote in message
[.]
>>There isn't much doubt these days. I've seen the reconstruction of the >>ancient coastline. Bronze Age Hissarlik had the splendid harbor and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>of >>the site, the nearby tumuli, and Tenedos is where it is supposed to be.
> The only way to exclude doubt is to stop thinking about either the > voyages or the list of ships. Homer doesn't remotely fit the marine > geography of Greece. It's almost certain he didn't know much about Bronze Age geography. By the eighth century many of the Bronze Age sites had been abandoned or were no longer power/population centers and their names long forgotten except by the bards. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 10 Dec 2006 04:13 GMT >"Eric Stevens" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >longer power/population centers and their names long forgotten except by the >bards. -the Troll The problem is that if one takes the various ports and islands and constructs a net with these places as the nodes and the distance between them based on Homer then one comes up with a shape that does not remotely fit the geography of any part of the mediteranean. One can only make it fit by selectively throwing out different parts of the source material.
It is possible to attribute the lack of fit to errors introduced by centuries of oral transmission but I don't think it is quite that easy.
Eric Stevens
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 20:43 GMT "Eric Stevens" wrote in message
[.]
>>It's almost certain he didn't know much about Bronze Age geography. By the >>eighth century many of the Bronze Age sites had been abandoned or were no [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > centuries of oral transmission but I don't think it is quite that > easy. It isn't improbable at all when you remember that distances at sea were measured in days of *coastal* travel with nights mostly spent beached. Some coastal areas had to be avoided because of navigational hazard or for security reasons, which forced often longer routes. Travel times were effected by contrary winds and storms which beached or kept ships beached. The ships of the time were very lightly built and not stable in rough seas. They could only sail almost directly before the wind, which means sails could rarely be used. Often the route was determined by who and where your enemies were and the experience of your pilot. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 10 Dec 2006 21:38 GMT >"Eric Stevens" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >It isn't improbable at all when you remember that distances at sea were >measured in days of *coastal* travel with nights mostly spent beached. I don't think that this last can be safely taken for granted for a variety of reasons. The point is that we tend to only find the wrecks of ancient ships around the shore. This because it is only around the shore lines that the water is shallow enough to enable wrecks to be found. It is also because the shore is where ships principally become wrecked.
It is a bit like arguing that traffic in cities is concentrated at intersections on the basis of it being at intersections where collisions occur.
>Some >coastal areas had to be avoided because of navigational hazard or for >security reasons, which forced often longer routes. Always true.
>Travel times were >effected by contrary winds and storms which beached or kept ships beached. >The ships of the time were very lightly built and not stable in rough seas. Once again, not necessarily true. It depends what ships you have in mind. In any case when you look at the numbers carried e.g. [Odyssey Book 2:508]:
"Of these there were fifty ships in all, and on board each of these a hundred and twenty sons of the Boitians"
Even if these numbers were exaggerated, they were not trivially sized ships.
>They could only sail almost directly before the wind, which means sails >could rarely be used. Definitely wrong as modern experiments with ancient replicas have confirmed. The could probably make a true course up to 60 degrees off the wind.
>Often the route was determined by who and where your >enemies were and the experience of your pilot. -the Troll This last is always true too.
Eric Stevens
hippo - 11 Dec 2006 02:44 GMT "Eric Stevens" wrote in message
[.]
>>It isn't improbable at all when you remember that distances at sea were >>measured in days of *coastal* travel with nights mostly spent beached. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > intersections on the basis of it being at intersections where > collisions occur. It isn't where we find the wrecks, but the ships themselves. Very few, if any, Bronze Age ports in the Aegian had piers or quays. The usual drill was to beach ships and discharge them overside. In consequence, ships had to be very lightly constructed. They were also narrow compared to breadth to increase speed under oars. Here is a useful site:
http://cma.soton.ac.uk/histship/shlect18.htm
...the author of which discusses two general types of Bronze Age ships represented in period art, the symmetrical merchant ship, and the asymmetrical warship. The later closely resembles ships of the Nordic Iron Age, examples of which have been found, copies built and tested. They prove to be poor seakeepers compared to later Viking ships and not suitable for long sea voyages (see Als boat).
[.]
>>Travel times were >>effected by contrary winds and storms which beached or kept ships beached. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "Of these there were fifty ships in all, and on board > each of these a hundred and twenty sons of the Boitians" I don't think Bronze Age Boiotia had 6000 men of the warrior class to send on any expedition, but that's not the question. The Uluburun merchantman was about 15 meters in length, which sounds about right for reasons I have already discussed for that class of vessel. Later more advanced triremes were an advancement of the earlier pentakonter, themselves a development from Bronze Age warships, with about 25 oars per side or fifty rowers. Beyond rowers there might be a supernumerary crew of at most 15 men for a total of 65. The Thera wall paintings show similarly sized vessels.
> Even if these numbers were exaggerated, they were not trivially sized > ships. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > confirmed. The could probably make a true course up to 60 degrees off > the wind. There are no replicas of Aegean Bronze Aged vessels built from known examples of which I am aware. Stability under sail hinges on the size of the keel and overall proportions of the vessel. The keelless Als boat from 300 BCE had no sail. There isn't enough physical remains of the Uluburun boat to give us much of an idea how it was built, or if there are I haven't been able to discover publication of the results. -the Troll
Eric Stevens - 11 Dec 2006 22:23 GMT >"Eric Stevens" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >to be poor seakeepers compared to later Viking ships and not suitable for >long sea voyages (see Als boat). I suspect you may be going too far back in time and looking at the wrong style of ship. Lionel Casson in "The Ancient Mariners" [Princeton University Press, 1991. ISBN 0-691-06836-4 or 0-691-01477-9] wrote on page 29 that ships of the style of the Ulu Burun wreck (the Kyrenia ship) is typical of shipbuilding back to the 14th century BC which almost certainly covers the period of the siege of Troy. http://www.dsti.org/html/uluburun.htm shows several photographs of a replica of the wreck.
With regard to size, further down the page, Casson writes:
"From written records of the age we know the Levantine merchant men could run to great size, to no less than 450 tons in carrying capacity"
On this basis, the claim to carry 120 men need not be much of an exaggeration.
Thinking about this I recalled a discussion in sci.archaeology of some years ago and I managed to find it in Google - see http://tinyurl.com/yllpyj
>[.] > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >give us much of an idea how it was built, or if there are I haven't been >able to discover publication of the results. -the Troll I believe two replicas have been built of the Kyrenia ship (above). Of the first J. Richard Steffy wrote [p 57, Wooden Ship Building and the Interpretation of Shipwrecks, Texas A&M University Press, 1994. ISBN I 86176 104 X]
"It has performed extremely well; it is drier, stronger, faster and sails better upwind than expected"
Unfortunately he does not say how well it actually sails upwind. I am not surprised that the Kyrenia ship can sail up wind. There is no fundamental reason why a square rigged ship cannot sail upwind. Although it helps, a keel is not necessary as long as the hull form offers sufficient lateral resistance to make it easier to sail forwards than sideways. The square rigged Viking replicas also sail better upwind then most people will give them credit for.
Eric Stevens
D. Patterson - 19 Dec 2006 13:17 GMT [....]
> There are no replicas of Aegean Bronze Aged vessels built from known > examples of which I am aware. Stability under sail hinges on the size of > the keel and overall proportions of the vessel. The keelless Als boat from > 300 BCE had no sail. There isn't enough physical remains of the Uluburun > boat to give us much of an idea how it was built, or if there are I > haven't been able to discover publication of the results. -the Troll See for example:
The Kyrenia 2 Project http://www.kyreniaship.org/text1/english%20text/thek2project_e.htm#k2_mainindex
Kerynia-Liberty http://www.kyreniaship.org/text1/english%20text/shipproject_e/THE%20K-L%20PROJEC T-INDEX.htm#START
"Uluburun II will stay in Kas, where the original sank, at a specially built dock replicating those used in the Bronze Age." (Bronze Age ship roused from 3,300-year slumber. Elcin Sener - The New Anatolian/Bodrum, 13 July 2006). http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-10792.html
Eric Stevens - 19 Dec 2006 20:57 GMT >[....] >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >3,300-year slumber. Elcin Sener - The New Anatolian/Bodrum, 13 July 2006). >http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-10792.html The construction of the Kyrenia wreck and the reconstruction of its replica is described by J. Richard Steffy in "Wooden Ship Building and the Interpretation of Shipwrecks", Texas A&M University Press ISBN I 86176 104 X or 0-89096-552-8
Eric Stevens
Joey - 10 Dec 2006 10:36 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > It's the only assumption possible given the evidence on the site. The "Iliad" narrates events during a few weeks in the tenth year of the Trojan War. Homer's successors created (assuming Homer worked in the eighth century) a great series of epics, most lost to us or existing in fragments, telling those parts of the story Homer ignored. Some of them, like the "Kypria" and "The sack of Ilios" were of great scope and power. These works may have been written down (700BC writing was becoming widespread in Greece) but it's clear from surviving fragments they, like Homer, were drawing heavily on a long oral tradition.
Homer's Troy is "well-walled", a "broad city" with "lofty gates" and "fine towers" and has "wide streets" - in fact most of the descriptive epithets in Homer were stock phases and shouldn't be taken seriously. His Troy was much larger than any excavated towns of his own day, and as such it should be seen as a "fairy tale city" of imagination, a golden age construct.
As to Troy's historicity it's widely accepted that the city stood on Hisarlik, Troy VI was sacked and deliberately devastated, and may well have been Homer's city attacked by Bronze Age Greeks around 1260.
It's possible too that the tablet from Boghaz Koy now firmly attributed to Hattusilis III mentions the Achaian king on the mainland of Anatolia about this time, possibly fighting on Asian soil. This could be a reference to the Trojan War.
Certainly, as with most stories with long oral traditions, one may expect a certain amount of truth within the tale, as well as later embellishment - that doesn't mean we should dismiss such narratives. However, we should always proceed with caution - stories of wars to rescue captured princesses of great beauty are fairly common, early India, for example, or 13th century Ugarit, not to mention later Irish and Norman examples.
The ultimate value of all such narratives is the insight it gives us in to the mores manors and lifestyles of society contemporaneous to the author, in this case Homer's society.
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 20:46 GMT "Joey" wrote in message
[.]
> The "Iliad" narrates events during a few weeks in the tenth year of > the Trojan War. Homer's successors created (assuming Homer worked in [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > to the mores manors and lifestyles of society contemporaneous to the > author, in this case Homer's society. hippo - 10 Dec 2006 21:21 GMT "Joey" wrote in message
[.]
> The "Iliad" narrates events during a few weeks in the tenth year of > the Trojan War. Homer's successors created (assuming Homer worked in [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > to the mores manors and lifestyles of society contemporaneous to the > author, in this case Homer's society. Yes, they were stock phrases, an aid to memory. Beowulf and other epics are filled with them. They also meant different things to Bronze Age people than they do to us who have seen Carnarvon, the walls of Malta and Constantinople, and fifth Avenue. It's what I mean by thinking in context or 'in the period'.
I'm not sure how well we have been able to separate the mores of Homer's time from the oral tradition. If you know a text that deals with this question, I'd be glad to read it. -the Troll
Joey - 11 Dec 2006 10:55 GMT .
> I'm not sure how well we have been able to separate the mores of Homer's > time from the oral tradition. If you know a text that deals with this > question, I'd be glad to read it. -the Troll "The Iliad: a commentary", by G S Kirk (Cambridge 6 volumes) is modern and currently a definitive analysis of this and the whole subject.
On the artist, Homer, you could do much worse than Oliver Taplin's "Homeric Soundings" (OUP).
Finally, The Journal of Hellenic Studies, vol CVIII, 1988, P151, contains M L West's masterly analysis "The Rise of the Greek Epic" on the origins of the tradition.
Regards
hippo - 11 Dec 2006 16:22 GMT "Joey" wrote in message
>> I'm not sure how well we have been able to separate the mores of Homer's >> time from the oral tradition. If you know a text that deals with this [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > contains M L West's masterly analysis "The Rise of the Greek Epic" on > the origins of the tradition. I did the epic at school. The course laid the Iliad beside Beowulf for comparison. With Beowulf it is simple to separate out the later Christian inclusions because they are not numerous or woven into the fabric. It's more difficult with the Iliad where Bronze Age, early and later Iron Age material was mixed almost continuously over the intervening centuries between the events to the eighth century form we now have. For the purposes of the course, only the material culture was considered when dating a passage. I'll be glad to fill in the blanks. Thanks very much. -the Troll
Robert Stonehouse - 09 Dec 2006 20:55 GMT >> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message ...
>> Um, no. We're back to context again. The walls of Troy only surrounded the >> citadel just as they did at Mycenae, Athens, and most of the Greek Bronze [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >cannot have survived within either a citadel wall nor the Homeric wall for ten >years. ... I don't find this dragging in the Iliad. At 22.208, Achilles has chased Hector three times round the walls in the course of their fight. At 22.389 ff., Achilles drags the body of Hector from the battlefield to the Achaean ships. At 24.12-18, the morning after the funeral of Patroclus, he drags Hector three times round Patroclus' burial mound: plenty of other things happen that day.
Of course, other sources may elaborate on that.
 Signature Robert Stonehouse To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
Italo - 13 Dec 2006 21:28 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
>> Currently the believer community, which is down to >> about two people, have agreed they are at the right [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Athens, and most of the Greek Bronze Age cities that had > walls of any kind. But defenses did extend around the lower town, as is shown by the rock-cut ditch, which needs to be part of larger defensive works as it would've been of no use on its own.
If the Romans were as thorough in rebuilding at the lower town as they were at the site of the temple of Athena, then it was probably them who cleaned up the remains of this outer (earthen-) wall.
Michael Kuettner - 10 Dec 2006 22:47 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message [.]
>>> There is no 'evidence' Homer was ever oral history. >> >> Nor has anyone ever claimed it was. That is why everyone gave the credit to Homer for creating it. > > You're not up on your Homer. Every historian believes Homer adopted oral history for his Iliad and Odyssey. Err, no. Not oral history. Folkstales conserved orally. There _is_ of course historical content (the ship-list) in his stories, but it isn't a history. It is, as you've stated elsewhere, a valuable source for historical information; like the OT. And both need to be read carefully to extract the historical kernels from a sea of good story-telling. But McGeifer won't ever understand that.
> His description of Bronze Age equipment long out of use by the time he wrote it down makes any other possibility unlikely. Homer > is credited with weaving the tale as we now have it from oral material with later Iron Age embellishments. Yes and no. Homer wrote a moralistic story for his own age; as a stage he used the wealth of oral poetry which was known to everyone. So he didn't have to "develop" his characters as everyone already knew them. Compare it with Michael Crighton writing a novell based on Beowulf or in German speaking countries novells based on the Nibelungs.
>>> It is a peculiarity of oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence of itself. We can presume Homer used oral Bronze age >>> material because there is no other way for it to have passed down to him. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > with contradictions for the same reason. In one line you have Bronze Age swords, shields, and armor, and the next Iron Age ones. > They did not both coexist at the same time in history. Plus you have the ship catalogue where a mass of people is presented who don't play any role later..... And the names of cities unknown at Homer's time (many have been found now). A fascinating topic ...
> I can not say the OT is not fiction, or partly fiction, and neither can you. The best you can manage is to state an opinion. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Established Arkies will tell you there is far more still in the ground than we have found. Only a fool would claim nothing existed > because we have not yet found it. McGeifer is a fool .... <snip>
>>> If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot, don't look in Romano-British Wales. As a professor explained to us in college, "Men, >>> if any of you have romantic visions about the Middle Ages you'd better unload them before this course begins. In those days >>> northern Europeans sewed themselves into their clothes in the fall and didn't come out until spring. The men and boys >>> occasionally bathed in rivers and streams, the women never bathed at all. Makes you wonder how we got here." Context, context, >>> context. Oh boy ! I haven't seen so much nonsense in a very long time. That view of histories was in the fifties, right ? (That's not directed against you, but against the quaint views of your professor)
<snip>
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Joey - 11 Dec 2006 16:09 GMT > > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Err, no. Not oral history. > Folkstales conserved orally.
> <snip> > > Cheers, > > Michael Kuettner Spot on. In the Classical world it was accepted that Homer was an "oral poet". The Iliad's language and style are very definitely suggestive of oral composition. Modern thinking on the subject is, almost unanimously, that Homer composed orally, but that his work was recorded in writing at a much later date. The one thing the Iliad definitely isn't, is history.
Regards
Italo - 13 Dec 2006 20:12 GMT >>> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Spot on. In the Classical world it was accepted that > Homer was an "oral poet". Diodorus alleges that, before Homer, songs were written down in Pelasgian letters and that Homer's teacher, Pronapides of Athens, used these. He also mentions that Thymoetes' "Phrygian song" was written in such old script and language.
> The Iliad's language and style are very definitely > suggestive of oral composition. It was meant to be read out loud. But oral composition is an impossibility.
> Modern thinking on the subject is, almost unanimously, > that Homer composed orally, but that his work was Maybe in the 19th century before linear-b was discovered.
> recorded in writing at a much later date. The one thing > the Iliad definitely isn't, is history. VtSkier - 13 Dec 2006 20:50 GMT >(snip) > > It was meant to be read out loud. But oral composition is an > impossibility. You'd best define yourself here. One of the jobs of the bards of ancient celtic countries, was to take everyday happenings and put them into words that were easily remembered because they either didn't have the means to write them into archives or they believed that memory was a better way. If this isn't "oral composition" I don't know what else to call it.
"Making up stories", such as pre-literate poets might have done can only be called oral composition. Take an event. Turn the pictures/memories/words/sounds of this event into a story that will rivet your listeners can only be composition.
For oral only use, that's oral composition.
(snip)
Italo - 13 Dec 2006 21:55 GMT >> (snip) >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > (snip) How does this relate to the Iliad?
VtSkier - 13 Dec 2006 22:29 GMT >>> (snip) >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > How does this relate to the Iliad? It does not, AFAIK, but you stated flatly, it a paragraph by itself, that "oral composition is an impossibility." So I just wanted to know what you meant.
BTW, what does all of this have to do with Jericho? Looks like a lot more thread drift here than that which I contributed to.
Italo - 14 Dec 2006 00:25 GMT >>>> (snip) >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> this event into a story that will rivet your >>> listeners can only be composition. If it is of the same size as the Iliad then one needs to make notes. When one makes notes then it is not an oral composition any more.
>>> For oral only use, that's oral composition. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > by itself, that "oral composition is an impossibility." > So I just wanted to know what you meant. It was in reply to what Joey wrote; "The Iliad's language and style are very definitely suggestive of oral composition. " And then with my answer I meant that this may appear so because it had to sound natural as it was to be read out loud. But for me this only goes for the language and style. Not when it comes to the amount of information and specifics in the text. The idea that the Iliad was composed without the aid of writing, then transmitted over several generations also without writing, remaining accurate and unchanged is really unlikely. Especialy when one realizes that there was literacy, from the period in which the story is set in, to the time of the composition, up to the time when it was put in writing. I for one believe that Homer composed the Iliad and Odyssey in writing, using written sources and incorporating entire passages from these earlier texts.
> BTW, what does all of this have to do with Jericho? Looks > like a lot more thread drift here than that which I > contributed to. VtSkier - 14 Dec 2006 00:59 GMT >>>>> (snip) >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> like a lot more thread drift here than that which I >> contributed to. I agree with, "The idea that the Iliad was composed without the aid of writing, then transmitted over several generations also without writing, remaining accurate and unchanged is really unlikely." wholeheartedly. The idea that an oral transmission will remain unchanged is put to the lie very easily by simply looking at all the different versions there are to our oldest folksongs, which were, for the most part, handed down orally. No oral transmission of something that is intended for amusement/instruction/ pleasure can/will remain static. For one thing, audiences and tastes change and the performer is always playing to his audience.
The big however here, is that there was a culture that existed up until historical (Roman) times that did not use writing, apparently believing that memory was more accurate/more meaningful/whatever. The Celtic peoples of northern Europe used poetry (which was invented as a memory jogger as much as for its aesthetic qualities) and memory to record all of the laws/stories and judgments of the people.
Also, it is a LARGE question whether or not the use of quipu(sp?) beads as a memory jogger by Andean peoples before the arrival of Europeans was a form of writing or not. If not, then their whole civilization relied on memory for record keeping with some help from a memory jogger.
I think that for reasonable lengths of time (perhaps not the time from the events of the Iliad to the time of Homer) that memory can be and effective repository of the records of a people.
Italo - 26 Dec 2006 15:51 GMT >>>>>> (snip) >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > Europe used poetry (which was invented as a memory jogger > as much But this doesn't change with written poetry, here as well the form serves as memory jogger for a performer who has to memorize from the writing, which is not oral tradition. An of course formulas that work as memory aid also serve to make imprint on the listening audience. I don't see how such can be taken as evidence for oral tradition or oral composition.
I have wondered about Homer's 'Keteioi' (probably Hittites) and other such names which only appear once, without clear context. Could such an name have survived via a non-written tradition for twenty generations, with only this alliteration "hetairoi Kêteioi kteinonto" ("fallen Keteian comrades..") as memory jogger?
> as for its aesthetic qualities) and memory to record all > of the laws/stories and judgments of the people. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Homer) that memory can be and effective repository of the > records of a people. Joey - 19 Dec 2006 23:00 GMT > It was in reply to what Joey wrote; > "The Iliad's language and style are very definitely > suggestive of oral composition. " Interesting. Recent studies (some in great detail) of epic poetry have been made in different parts of the world - Ireland, where the last (prose) epic performer lived long enough to be recorded in the 1940's, Albania and Armenia, Serbia and Zaire.
All these studies taught us a great deal about how great poems and exceedingly long ones can be orally composed and transmitted without the aid of writing.
It really is no great shakes, although it seems troublesome to some here?
Once a friend listened to an Iranian storyteller recount for two hours the tale of Alexander (the Great); both this teller of tales and his father before him were totally illiterate, yet both confessed to adding greatly to the "epic" - and I'm sure they did.
To those who think oral composition an impossibility, I'd strongly suggest reading William Wordsworth's prelude, to begin with (he explains how he created this "epic" by reciting aloud - not by writing!).
If you wish to know more, please do consult:
"The Homeric question and the oral-formulaic theory" Minna Skafte Jensen.
"The Songs of Homer " G S Kirk
Regards and seasons greetings.
Italo - 26 Dec 2006 16:06 GMT >> It was in reply to what Joey wrote; "The Iliad's >> language and style are very definitely suggestive of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lived long enough to be recorded in the 1940's, Albania > and Armenia, Serbia and Zaire.
> All these studies taught us a great deal about how great > poems and exceedingly long ones can be orally composed The Iliad and Odyssey are clearly assembled works, some parts from non-written songs, other from written sources. But as whole they cannot be oral compositions, they are too intricate for that.
> and transmitted without the aid of writing. For how many generations?
> It really is no great shakes, although it seems > troublesome to some here?
> Once a friend listened to an Iranian storyteller recount > for two hours the tale of Alexander (the Great); both > this teller of tales and his father before him were > totally illiterate, yet both confessed to adding greatly > to the "epic" - and I'm sure they did. So? Do you think their Alexander story came from some ancient oral tradition? They got their material from the Persian literary tradition (which when it comes to Alexander is mostly fictional). It isn't relevant if the storytellers themselves are illiterate or not.
Jan Vansina's study "Oral Tradition as History" suggests that oral traditions reach back only three generations, in modern non-literate societies at least. Any older elements become distorted, lose historical context.
Imo, there may be up to 20 generations between the Trojan war and the age of Homer.
There was literacy in lba Greece, why should the towns that survived the end of the bronze age (like Athens) have lost all knowledge to read linear-b when in Cyprus similar script was still used to write Greek up to the 4th century bc. A folding writing tablet is mentioned is mentioned in the Iliad.
> To those who think oral composition an impossibility, I'd > strongly suggest reading William Wordsworth's prelude, > to begin with (he explains how he created this "epic" by > reciting aloud - not by writing!). reciting aloud parts before writing it down is logical, the end product should be recited out loud too, I don't call that oral composition.
To me, some passages in the Iliad and Odyssey stand out as if they were inserted as whole from earlier texts, maybe only converting to alphabetic writing and adapting it to the meter.
> If you wish to know more, please do consult: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Regards and seasons greetings. Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 07:45 GMT > There is no 'evidence' Homer was ever oral history. It is a peculiarity of > oral history that it leaves no tangible evidence of itself. Don't get technical, hippo. You'll hurt poor Matt's brain.
> A crumbly hilltop to you, a city, or palace, or refuge, or home and > protection, to Priam, lovely Helen, or the shepherds and early kings of the > OT. If you are looking for a Hollywood Camelot You forget that Matt's only source of information about history is the latest Hollywood blockbuster. I'll bet he thinks that Alexander spoke English with an American accent. After all, someone as great as Alex wouldn't speak an impure language with an invented script, would he?
Ken Down
 Signature ================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine | | http://www.diggingsonline.com | ========================================================
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 19:14 GMT "Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
> In message "hippo" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > English with an American accent. After all, someone as great as Alex > wouldn't speak an impure language with an invented script, would he? Chuckle, he doesn't appear to be up on Bronze Age Greece. I think he is one of the folks who makes history serve his purposes rather than to listen to what it says. I was like that when very young. -the Troll
JTEM - 08 Dec 2006 09:22 GMT > This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with > Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the > Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for decades for > political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular > socialists as it competes with their political objectives. You're an idiot. No, wait. I'm serious.
Matt is a filthy piece of Nazi sh.t. He attacks the bible because, now get this, he's anti-semetic and he thinks he's getting even with a vast Jewish conspiracy against him.
Don't believe me? Matt's actual words:
| On choosing to get even I observed these jewboys hold | sacred their holy holocaust, their religion and their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | the Old Testament and I have enjoyed the intellectual | exercise in doing so. http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Now why you're an idiot is because of this:
It never mattered. Whether the bible if the very word of God or total bunk was never the issue the Israeli supporters -- outside of American *Christian* fundies -- cared about. The issue is an ancient claim to a homeland.
Saying that the bible is total bunk IS NOT the same as saying that there was never an ancient Judea, that it was never conquered, that many of its people were dispersed.
Matt doesn't know this -- it has never once clicked for him -- and apparently you don't know it either.
You have to invent some vast left-wing conspiracy to account for someone honestly reporting the facts... not at all different from the way that Matt had to invent a vast Jewish conspiracy to account for the negative reception his holocaust denying encountered.
Matt Giwer - 08 Dec 2006 12:09 GMT >> This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with >> Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the >> Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for decades for >> political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular >> socialists as it competes with their political objectives.
> You're an idiot. No, wait. I'm serious. You are demonstrating it takes one to know one.
> Matt is a filthy piece of Nazi sh.t. He attacks the bible > because, now get this, he's anti-semetic and he thinks > he's getting even with a vast Jewish conspiracy against > him. In challenging the OT I remove the foundations for both Islam and Christianity which is about 2.4 BILLION people as opposed to a trivial number of Jews, most of whom agree with me to some extent.
> Don't believe me? Matt's actual words:
> | On choosing to get even I observed these jewboys hold > | sacred their holy holocaust, their religion and their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > | exercise in doing so. > http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
> Now why you're an idiot is because of this:
> It never mattered. Whether the bible if the very word of > God or total bunk was never the issue the Israeli > supporters -- outside of American *Christian* fundies -- > cared about. The issue is an ancient claim to a > homeland. Regardless of the OT there is no claim to land by prior residence there.
> Saying that the bible is total bunk IS NOT the same as > saying that there was never an ancient Judea, that it > was never conquered, that many of its people were dispersed. Antisemitism is stupid.
Anti-Zionism is a moral imperative. Zionism is based upon the premise of murdering or expelling the right owners of Palestine. It has been that way since Jabotinsky.
> Matt doesn't know this -- it has never once clicked for him -- > and apparently you don't know it either.
> You have to invent some vast left-wing conspiracy to > account for someone honestly reporting the facts... not at > all different from the way that Matt had to invent a vast > Jewish conspiracy to account for the negative reception > his holocaust denying encountered. Finkelstein calls it the Holocaust Industry and it is immensely profitable at the expense of Jews as he demonstrates.
You are a believing fool, ultimately credulous beyond belief.
hippo - 08 Dec 2006 16:48 GMT "JTEM" wrote in message
>> This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with >> Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You're an idiot. No, wait. I'm serious. Thanks very much.
> Matt is a filthy piece of Nazi sh.t. He attacks the bible > because, now get this, he's anti-semetic and he thinks [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Jewish conspiracy to account for the negative reception > his holocaust denying encountered. Vast left-wing conspiracy? I was referring to Ha'aretz and the article posted by Matt. Ha'aretz is well known as a secular/Labor (Socialist) organ that is sympathetic to Palestinian aspirations even to the extent of supporting the PLO. It isn't surprising Matt would find solace and support in its pages, and every reason why readers here should be aware that Ha'aretz neither represents majority political opinion in Israel nor consensus amongst archaeologists working there. To be fair, the Jerusalem Post is just as venue driven as Ha'aretz on the other side. Israel is not known for moderation in just about anything. -the Troll
JTEM - 09 Dec 2006 04:02 GMT > readers here should be aware that Ha'aretz neither > represents majority political opinion in Israel nor > consensus amongst archaeologists working there. again, you're every bit as bad as the Nazi. You're his equal opposite.
Look. See what you just did? You're insisting that the evidence be viewed in terms of your politics... you're brushing away the facts on the basis of a "vast left wing consipracy," EXACTLY the way Nazi boy explains away his problems with a vast Jewish conspiracy.
Idiot.
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 07:36 GMT "JTEM" wrote in message
>> readers here should be aware that Ha'aretz neither >> represents majority political opinion in Israel nor [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Idiot. Pay attention you uneducated twit. When evaluating the validity of any written material you must ALWAYS consider the perspective of the writer or source. I was taught that in high school history and in every historiography and research course since. It is the most fundamental rule of historical research. If one of us is an idiot it is you. I suggest you stay away from serious newsgroups or risk getting laughed at by people who understand proper evaluative methodology. -the Troll
JTEM - 09 Dec 2006 07:52 GMT > Pay attention you uneducated twit. When evaluating > the validity of any written material you must > ALWAYS consider the perspective of the writer or > source. Wrong, you drooling imbecile.
The worst thing you can ever do is allow emotions to weigh in on a matter.
If & when Matt says something true, I don't throw it away just because he's a filthy, holocaust denying piece of sh.t.
Quite a lot of what he says is true, except for his conclusions. He's correct that there was never any biblical Disney Land, a kingdom of David or Solomon. He's correct in arguing that the bible is clearly a lot younger than biblical literalists require. He & you are both wrong in thinking that it matters.
Few Jews, and no Israeli secular Jews require biblical accuracy. Whether God exist or not isn't relevant to their claim. Their claim is based on ancient ownership, an ancient occupation. And, they'll tell you that whether the people were all really Pagans until just a few centuries before the birth of Christ, they were still people, the land was still their's, and it now belongs to them as the ancestors of those people.
Now go back to your drooling...
Martin Edwards - 09 Dec 2006 08:30 GMT >>Pay attention you uneducated twit. When evaluating >>the validity of any written material you must [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Now go back to your drooling... So the English should go back to the Frisian islands. I'm not sure whether they could fit us all in. Ancient occupancy, real or invented, is a load of bollocks.
 Signature You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
JTEM - 09 Dec 2006 10:14 GMT > So the English should go back to the Frisian islands. > I'm not sure whether they could fit us all in. Ancient > occupancy, real or invented, is a load of bollocks. See, that's the problem. The above is a valid argument.
No, I'm not saying it's "Right" or that you'd have to be stupid to not agree with it. But it is an argument, and it is based on the facts.
Matt, stupid little holocaust denying Nazi piece of sh.t, does not argue from reality. He's arguing from the view that the biblical accuracy matters. It doesn't.
And, yeah, the same with the troll. "A vast left-wing conspiracy" is NOT a valid argument.
joerevskelton@bellsouth.net - 09 Dec 2006 14:38 GMT >> So the English should go back to the Frisian islands. >> I'm not sure whether they could fit us all in. Ancient [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And, yeah, the same with the troll. "A vast left-wing > conspiracy" is NOT a valid argument. Possibly that is why no one has suggested that it is. You are responding to a suggestion that political biases should be taken into consideration when evaluating an archaeologist's conclusions about evidence. That is a self-evidently valid argument.
JTEM - 10 Dec 2006 03:56 GMT > Possibly that is why no one has suggested > that it is. You haven't told us directly....
> You are responding to a suggestion that political > biases should be taken into consideration when > evaluating an archaeologist's conclusions about > evidence. What you're literally telling us is that *You* view everything through your political filter, and that everyone else should too.
What I'm pointing out is that, like Nazi boy, you're a frigging idiot for taking that position.
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 18:26 GMT "JTEM" wrote in message
>> Pay attention you uneducated twit. When evaluating >> the validity of any written material you must [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > people, the land was still their's, and it now belongs to > them as the ancestors of those people. [.]
You have a reading problem. I don't require biblical accuracy and don't expect it from the OT or any other ancient document. Ancient documents, just like modern newspaper articles, have biases, every one of them. Anyone who evaluates either at face is a fool.
I don't care how old the OT is in its present form. Some parts are very much older than others having been transmitted orally, some are more historical than others, and some are clearly borrowed. All of it can be of use to historians if used with care. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 09:50 GMT >> readers here should be aware that Ha'aretz neither >> represents majority political opinion in Israel nor >> consensus amongst archaeologists working there.
> again, you're every bit as bad as the Nazi. You're his > equal opposite. You and him fight. I will hold your coats.
> Look. See what you just did? You're insisting that the > evidence be viewed in terms of your politics... you're > brushing away the facts on the basis of a "vast left > wing consipracy," EXACTLY the way Nazi boy explains > away his problems with a vast Jewish conspiracy.
> Idiot. The Jewish conspiracy while not called vast is openly discussed in Israeli newspapers in regard to their control over US foreign policy in regard to the middle east. Anyone who makes a practice of reading the online sources from Israel knows it.
Why would you try to deny what is well known and openly discussed in Israel?
Matt Giwer - 09 Dec 2006 09:43 GMT ...
> Vast left-wing conspiracy? I was referring to Ha'aretz and the article > posted by Matt. Ha'aretz is well known as a secular/Labor (Socialist) organ [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Post is just as venue driven as Ha'aretz on the other side. Israel is not > known for moderation in just about anything. -the Troll And the Jerusalem Post www.jpost.com reports the ongoing racism and discrimination in Israel. And not just against non-Jews but of Ashkenazi against Sephardim Jews.
It is hardly just Ha'aretz.
Arutz Sheva www.israelnationalnews.com also reports this bigotry and murderous intent towards non-Jews.
I do not see what your point is. Anyone who reads Israeli online news sources knows all about this.
I do not see why people are interested in denying what is openly discussed in Israel.
hippo - 09 Dec 2006 18:33 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
> And the Jerusalem Post www.jpost.com reports the ongoing racism and > discrimination in Israel. And not just against non-Jews but of Ashkenazi [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I do not see why people are interested in denying what is openly discussed > in Israel. We're not talking about discrimination, we were talking about your article from Ha'aretz. It's safe to say the JP wouldn't agree with the tenor or content of that article. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 05:14 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > from Ha'aretz. It's safe to say the JP wouldn't agree with the tenor or > content of that article. -the Troll The facts remain the facts. The style of presentation does not change them.
hippo - 10 Dec 2006 21:33 GMT "Matt Giwer" wrote in message
[.]
>> We're not talking about discrimination, we were talking about your >> article from Ha'aretz. It's safe to say the JP wouldn't agree with the >> tenor or content of that article. -the Troll > > The facts remain the facts. The style of presentation does not change > them. Style has nothing to do with it. It's the interpretation of what little we know that is important and the venue of the interpreter. Ha'aretz is not an unbiased source. It is overtly secular and, like you, blame many of Israel's ills on religion. Like you Ha'aretz is prone to absolute conclusions when such conclusions are as little supported as the opinions of the opposing religious. The truth, as is usually the case, is probably somewhere between the extremes of opinion. -the Troll
Matt Giwer - 11 Dec 2006 05:22 GMT > "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [.] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> The facts remain the facts. The style of presentation does not change >> them.
> Style has nothing to do with it. It's the interpretation of what little we > know that is important and the venue of the interpreter. Ha'aretz is not an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > religious. The truth, as is usually the case, is probably somewhere between > the extremes of opinion. -the Troll I cite Ha'aretz and the Jerusalem Post and Arutz Sheva and others for the facts they report. I do not need others to provide interpretation or viewpoint. The FACTS of the reason for that riot over opening the other end of the tunnel were reported in the first two. NEITHER said it was the racism of the Jews in occupied Jerusalem. I add that point myself.
In fact in their newspapers I find the lack of apologetic tone and positive light of the facts reported in jpost.com and israelinsider.com to be must more damning of Israel. Ha'aretz differs in that it knows how it looks to the outside world and tries to sugarcoat the facts. So in fact you are accusing me of reading the source which is worst for Israel. In fact that is the best source for Israel.
So when I say EVEN Ha'aretz says something I mean it in the sense that they would be the last to be blunt about a negative event.
Kendall K. Down - 08 Dec 2006 18:16 GMT > > This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with > > Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the > > Jewish Religion (and Christianity) for decades for > > political reasons. Religion is inconvenient to secular > > socialists as it competes with their political objectives.
> You're an idiot. No, wait. I'm serious. Naturally I agree with everything you say about Matt: you have by no means overstated his stupidity. However when it comes to the Troll (aka hippo) I can only assume you have misunderstood him. He does not support religion, he is not pro-Jew, but his statement is strictly accurate.
Israeli secularists do indeed reject the "land of the Bible" claims of many Jews and some Christians - the claim that archaeology supports a Jewish state before Christ (which it does) and *therefore* the land belongs to the Jews (which is nonsense).
> Matt doesn't know this -- it has never once clicked for him -- > and apparently you don't know it either. No, the Troll does know it, which is why he made his comment above.
Ken Down
 Signature ================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
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svo37 - 10 Dec 2006 10:21 GMT well for whatever it is worth it seems tome you are all missing some vital point. Ive seen a group more indulgent of itself! The saddest point is a lot of hard accurate information passes here and a high percentage of comes from guess who .... Matt. He may be an antisemite but I would never know that. He must conceal it well - while the rest of you j.rk off because Matt has thehigh point on raw scholarship. shalom.
> > > This last paragraph identifies Ha'aretz and Herzog with > > > Israeli secularists who have been chipping away at the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > | http://www.diggingsonline.com | > ======================================================== Matt Giwer - 10 Dec 2006 12:42 GMT > well for whatever it is worth it seems tome you are all missing > some vital point. Ive seen a group more indulgent of itself! The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > raw scholarship. > shalom. You are going to be attacked for that.
svo37 - 10 Dec 2006 10:15 GMT I worked like hell as a child t obe able to kick my football to the end of our back yard. I thouight I was a super star and destined to play for the Rams. I still remember the evening I got homefrom gradechool, grabbed my ball and kicked as hard as I could, and is if by magic it went very high, kept going, and cleared the back yard fence.
Today you go back to my childhood home and that huge back yard measures a little over 16 feet, at its longest angle! As a child I would have sworn it was 300 yards!
> "Matt Giwer" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > against Homer's description. It is then you begin to understand the > importance of thinking in context. -the Troll hippo - 10 Dec 2006 21:36 GMT "svo37" wrote in message
[.]
>I worked like hell as a child t obe able to kick my football to the end > of our back yard. I thouight I was a super star and destined to play [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > measures a little over 16 feet, at its longest angle! As a child I would > have sworn it was 300 yards! Yup, good analogy. -the Troll
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