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History Forum / General / Archaeology / January 2007



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Second Thoughts on Clonycavan Man

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K. M. Kirby - 23 Jan 2007 23:09 GMT
A recent pbs show on bog men presented some preliminary opinions about
the identity of Clonycavan Man. Some of these conclusions seem
premature, based on closer analysis:

1) Apparently the Iberian origins of the man's hair product led to the
belief that he was a wealthy local, and thus that there was healthy
trade with the Iberocelts. However, this man could himself had been
visiting from that region.

2) There was the opinion that he had been struck while kneeling, due to
the entry angle of wounds. However, they also noted the original height
of Clonycavan Man as being shorter than usual. This might indicate that
he was standing, possibly even fighting, when the wounds occurred.

3) Examiners expressed the belief that his head was shaved in
preparation for ceremonial head hits. However, the shaved head could
also indicate an Egyptian influence. There was interaction between
Celts and Ancient Egypt, and this man could very well have had
pharaonic relations.

4) Examination of the hair itself presumed that its texture was
entirely influenced by long contact with sphagnum. Even so, this hair
may have originally been slightly wooly due to Nileotic family roots.

IMO, this bog man represents an early contact, near Tara, with the
Iberoceltic wave to come. He may indded be one of the first "Black
Irish", and guesstimates of his appearance should include darker skin
and a more accurate representation of hairstyle and eye region.
Day Brown - 24 Jan 2007 09:52 GMT
> A recent pbs show on bog men presented some preliminary opinions about
> the identity of Clonycavan Man. Some of these conclusions seem
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Irish", and guesstimates of his appearance should include darker skin
> and a more accurate representation of hairstyle and eye region.
They didnt get his DNA? Hard to evaluate anyway. Stuart Kauffman, "The
Origins of Order" on a comparison of how mass species like the
herbivores fail to evolve while small isolated species, that get
inbred, like the hominids do. He suggests that even a better
adaptation, when put into a mass gene pool, soon just gets washed out
without a trace. Did the Kenebic man leave any genetic trace?

Recently posted here, was a report on a sketon found in England that
had minerals in the teeth showing the man grew up eating mediterranean
sea food. 3500 years ago.

But where there's a *population*, then the DNA can be traced. Tocharian
mummies (NW CHINA) descended from Slavs.
The Chinese found a woman, IIRC, 1500 years old, remarkably well
preserved in a vat/casket. They didnt say what the liquid was, but the
skin was still flexible, as if in formaldehyde. They said the blood was
still in her veins. Type AB. Trouble is, the Chinese dont *have* AB
blood. Altho she looked to be an entirely Chinese noblewoman, she had
Tocharian blood. In Manchuria.
K. M. Kirby - 24 Jan 2007 23:32 GMT
A couple of things are known for certain about the date of death for
this Celt.

1) Waves of Iberians were migrating to the British Isles, many of these
(or their forefathers) having served as mercenaries in the Eastern
Mediterranean.

2) The penalty was death, and probable interrment by druids, for
starting a fire within sight of Tara. The bog in question is very near
Tara. IMO, Clonycavan was a scout who wanted to stir up trouble -- and
succeeded.
Doug Weller - 27 Jan 2007 17:41 GMT
>A couple of things are known for certain about the date of death for
>this Celt.
>
>1) Waves of Iberians were migrating to the British Isles, many of these
>(or their forefathers) having served as mercenaries in the Eastern
>Mediterranean.

This is an archaeology newsgroup, where is the archaeology to support this
claim?

>2) The penalty was death, and probable interrment by druids, for
>starting a fire within sight of Tara. The bog in question is very near
>Tara. IMO, Clonycavan was a scout who wanted to stir up trouble -- and
>succeeded.

Evidence for this law?

Doug
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Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

Doug Weller - 27 Jan 2007 17:39 GMT
>3) Examiners expressed the belief that his head was shaved in
>preparation for ceremonial head hits. However, the shaved head could
>also indicate an Egyptian influence. There was interaction between
>Celts and Ancient Egypt, and this man could very well have had
>pharaonic relations.

Why?  There were Celts in Egypt in Ptolemy II's army as early as 274 BC,
which is the right time period,, but related to the Greek Pharaohs?
And the Egyptians didn't shave just half of their heads.

>4) Examination of the hair itself presumed that its texture was
>entirely influenced by long contact with sphagnum. Even so, this hair
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Irish", and guesstimates of his appearance should include darker skin
>and a more accurate representation of hairstyle and eye region.

Black Irish? A pretty meaningless term, mainly 20th century and American.
All sorts of weird and wonderful claims around the phrase, of course. Some
relating to the inhabitants of the island of Montseratt and describing the
offspring of Irish emigrants and African slaves, some to alleged survivors
of the Spanish armada landing on Ireland and having children, others as a
general epithet used by Catholics about Protestants.  Or just the dark
hair and eyes some Irish have (nothing to do with skin colour).

What Iberoceltic wave?

Doug
Signature

Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

prd - 28 Jan 2007 01:36 GMT
>>3) Examiners expressed the belief that his head was shaved in
>>preparation for ceremonial head hits. However, the shaved head could
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> What Iberoceltic wave?

From a molecular point of view the A29 B44 haplotype is distributed
widely in Ireland but not high in germany or sweden, suggesting that
it arrived more recently than the pleistocene. A29-Cw16 is definitely of
recent african origin, the only variant haplotype of Cw16 in europe is
found in Iberia. We can conclude that there was a recent input of DNA
from africa, but not so recent since it is spread relatively widely in
Ireland with only a shallow gradient from cornwall to northern ireland.
Best guess is about 5000 to 7000 years ago, so it is prehistoric in nature.

The maximum contribution is probably on the order of 7% to 15% which could
explain some darker phenotypes. There is a problem with this hypothesis,
prior to the bronze age the best evidence suggest that Irish were largely
tied to coastal regions, the neolithic came late to Ireland and there was
some dispersion inland from scotland. But the HLA types in Ireland,
particularly western Ireland are in several cases nodal for Europe,
indicating the highest degree of isolation during the holocene period
(other than sardinia). Given a coastal habitation, fairly mild winters, and
the general abundance of cloud cover would indicate people spent alot of
time outside, particularly in the summer, but also in the winter, this
could have selected some characteristics for people in specific regions of
Ireland. The addition of new peoples about the time of the holocene maximum
may have just quickened some selection patterns.
 We have to remember that over most of the northern hemisphere, the
indigeonous people who live in the arctic have dark hair and brown or black
eyes. Some of the genes of those darker hair peoples also show up in the
norwegion and islandic population. There are as many explanations for black
hair color.

It would be an interesting study though to see skin pigment levels, hair,
and eye color versus A29 Cw16 B44 distribution, I doubt there is anything
there but a computer may pick it up if the sample size is high enough. The
theory is that genes will randomly walk away from the origin, if these
originated from africa each gene would produce isoquants that form
oblong shapes as it randomly walks. If all these walks have central lines
that intersect at a single spot, then one might propose that the african
carrying peoples settled that spot, a potential reasoning for directional
archaeology.
 
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