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History Forum / General / Archaeology / February 2007Auschwitz - the death camp with an orchestra, theatre, hospital, cinema, complaints office
Lets stop with the Auschwitz lies. This was a work camp This is a factual list of facilities available to prisoners at the alleged Nazi death camp of Auschwitz in Poland. Most of these facilities can still be seen in the camp today, including the cinema, swimming pool, hospital, library and post office. Camp sick barracks Attended by camp inmate doctors and nurses to deal with the inmates' health problems Camp hospital To which expert surgeons even from the famous Berlin "Charité" Surgical Clinic were dispatched to deal with difficult cases Auschwitz maternity ward Over 3,000 live births were registered there, with not a single infant death while Auschwitz was in operation under German rule. Camp kitchen The caloric content of the diet was carefully monitored by camp and Red Cross delegates. Camp orchestras Up to 16 camp orchestras with every conceivable instrument available Camp theater Where live plays could be performed by camp inmate actors Camp university With lectures on every topic under the sun, from health, the arts, philosophy, science, economic issues etc. Camp sculture class conducted for interested, talented inmates by professional sculptors. Camp art classes for inmates Camp cinema Where every week different, mainly cultural and non-political films were shown YOU MUST WATCH THIS 2MIN VIDEO Footage of German concentration camps; http://home.att.net/~texmextexmex/Auschwitz_theater.WMV Camp Brothel Just inside the main gate was a building used during the war as a brothel for the inmates. It was not a secret that the camp had a brothel; it was mentioned in books and its existence was confirmed by the Auschwitz Museum officials. Camp Library Where inmates could borrow books from Forty -five thousand volumes available Camp Swimming pool for use by the inmates on Birkenallee, where there were walkways with comfortable benches for inmates to relax in the shade of the trees. Plus there were camp sport facilities like soccer fields, handball areas, fencing classes and other exercise facilities. Incentive system Where through extra work inmates could obtain coupons redeemable for cake or ice cream in the Camp Cantina, which also had extra toiletries etc. Camp complaints office Where inmates could register complaints or make suggestions. Camp Commander Hoess had a standing order that any inmate could approach him personally to register a complaint about other inmates such as "Kapos" and even guards. Auschwitz marriages Took place because worker inmates fell in love and married their inmate partners. Child care center Where working mothers could leave their children. Auschwitz jail Since the camp was a large, open facility, transgressors could be arrested, tried and jailed right in Auschwitz. Auschwitz crematoria These structures were hastily built by inmate labor after the first typhus epidemic caused thousands of deaths. (Burial of epidemic victims had caused the ground water to be contaminated causing infections among the German staff. Amongst the victims was an early camp commandant's wife. http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm > Lets stop with the Auschwitz lies. This was a work camp <snip Auschwitz lies> I am certainly glad to live in a country where someone like you can write the tripe I have snipped. It is the same country that, with its allies, beat the snot out of your beloved nazzies. Why not find a new and more socially useful hobby. Like mugging little old ladies for their walkers. On Feb 6, 3:14 am, "????" <nighthawk6...@googlemail.com> wrote: > Lets stop with the Auschwitz lies. This was a work camp <snip Auschwitz lies> <I am certainly glad to live in a country where someone like you can <write the tripe I have snipped. <It is the same country that, with its allies, beat the snot out of <your beloved nazzies. <Why not find a new and more socially useful hobby. Like mugging little <old ladies for their walkers. But that could be dangerous, some of them have walking sticks, too, or even umbrellas. Safer to do some anonymous posting on usenet. Brave as leather, fast as iron and hardy as racing dogs, or so these people are described. No one said anything about intelligence have fun Uwe Mueller > On Feb 6, 3:14 am, "????" <nighthawk6...@googlemail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Uwe Mueller The existance of those facilities are not in doubt, and many can still be seen today. The "Gas Chamber" at Auschwitz however is: The "Gas Chamber" at Auschwitz: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5900860289723969795 Full Documentary (Warning: no dramatic horror stories) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5467701992662742210 Typhus victim: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF5.RUS.TYPHUS.JPG > Why not find a new and more socially useful hobby. Like mugging little > old ladies for their walkers. You sound like the girl out of The Exorcist. The heart of the 'Holocaust,' taking at face value the term's pretension to historical designation, is the claim that six million Jews were murdered by Nazi Germany, most of them by gassing. The evidence for the gassing is never discussed. Photos of crematories and bodies stacked like cord wood are shown. No context or explanation of the reason for showing them is given. The connection is to be assumed. But never is any ordinary evidence, let alone proof, of the gassing allegation advanced. That Jews were gassed is treated as though it were already proved and therefore unquestionable, save by the depraved. Thus, the practical job of the media and the well intentioned everyman is to smear and ostracize anybody who argues against settled truth. We all know that Jews were gassed, and that those who say otherwise are deniers driven by hate. But it ain't so just because "everybody knows" it is. We are told repeatedly that the 'Holocaust' is both the worst thing that ever happened and the best documented thing in human history. We are to take these assertions on authority, since no genuine debate is allowed. > The heart of the 'Holocaust,' Why don't you and Gwier just get a room and giggle over each other's denial tactics. On 7 Feb, 23:03, <joerevskel...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > The heart of the 'Holocaust,' > > Why don't you and Gwier just get a room and giggle over each other's denial > tactics. The saying goes "He that controls the past, controls the future" and our perception of history can be a contentious issue between the tribes. The victor writes the history, and no one could say Hitler and the Nazis came out of the war with a reputable image. The "Holocaust" is perhaps one of the most politicised historical events of recent times: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5504/014jaberasadizw9.jpg http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2598/009najibenaji4dj6.jpg http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4531/005dostmohammadi10jf0.jpg http://www.irancartoon.com/120/holocaust/index.htm >> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' > Why don't you and Gwier just get a room and giggle over each other's denial > tactics. You know, I ignore most of these squabbles because they bring out more believers than when showing the OT is nothing but a collection of myths. That is only interesting in that an event which did not merit even a footnote in the major first person texts on the war, those by Churchill, Eisenhower, DeGaulle. It draws more fanatical believers than the passing observations of atheists showing quite clearly to the fanatics this is is more important than the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I find that strange but obviously holocaustianism is treated as a religion with sacred truths of its own. Seriously, who really gives a sh.t and why? Religions undergo regular extinction events and no one misses them. Who mourns Adonis? In the last century more people were murdered by their own governments than in war by other governments. Many times more people were "exterminated" in that century than the highest number for Jews. There is nothing special about Jews. They are no better or worse or different from Tutsis or Rwandans or the tens of millions of Christians the communists murder solely for being Christians. If Judaism were to disappear tomorrow no one would miss it. Despite your sacred beliefs there is nothing special about this event even if it was all the myths say it was. Your sacred beliefs are jokes to people outside of your faith. The Trinity does not get such defense from Christians as the sacred electrified swimming pool executions get from holohuggers. Christians did not defend Mother Theresa a tenth as much as believers defend the Canadian who lectures about having been gassed six time even though both qualified as living saints. You believers behave as though this were something important in the grand scheme of things and that sharing your beliefs matters in some way. It happens again? It has happened before and several times since already. Remembering it obviously isn't worth jack sh.t. Why do you fools protest so? You just give people a chain to yank to watch your perform and laugh at you. "Watch this. I'm going to give that guy a heart attack." "I sent one into a fit of self-righteousness. You could almost feel the sanctimony in his post." You folks need to grow up and get a life and stop providing perverse entertainment for people with a sick sense of humor.  SignatureIf Americans knew about Israel's treatment of non-Jews they would turn against Israel as fast as they did against apartheid South Africa. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3737 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Mission Accomplished http://www.giwersworld.org/opinion/mission.phtml a12 > joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: > >> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I find that strange but obviously > holocaustianism is treated as a religion with sacred truths of its own. Typical nazi denial dressed up to resemble a real post. Go to http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm where they have the Trial transcripts.. Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing to do with archaeology >> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I find that strange but obviously >> holocaustianism is treated as a religion with sacred truths of its own. > Typical nazi denial dressed up to resemble a real post. > Go to http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm where they have > the Trial transcripts.. And not one word on gas chambers. Thank you for making the case. > Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing to > do with archaeology Apart from the absence of the thousands of cubic yards of "bone ash" required not existing it has everything to do with the same kind of sham archaeology that constantly finds Noah's Ark and David's Palace and Solomon's Stables and all the rest of the crap believers claim exist but is unknown to science. SignatureIf the US recognizes the right of Jews to Palestine how can it deny Utah to the Latter Day Saints? -- The Iron Webmaster, 3739 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4 >>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > And not one word on gas chambers. Thank you for making the case. Indeed, thank YOU for making the case. From the very same site, the findings regarding War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity, as read (in part) by Judge John J. Parker, one of the judges at Nuremberg: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judwarcr.htm#civilian "The evidence relating to war crimes has been overwhelming, in its volume and its detail. It is impossible for this Judgment adequately to review it, or to record the mass of documentary and oral evidence that has been presented. The truth remains that war crimes were committed on a vast scale, never before seen in the history of war. ... MURDER AND ILL-TREATMENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATION ... A certain number of the concentration camps were equipped with gas chambers for the wholesale destruction of the inmates, and with furnaces for the burning of the bodies. Some of them were in fact used for the extermination of Jews as part of the " final solution " of the Jewish problem. Most of the non-Jewish inmates were used for labour, although the conditions under which they worked made labour and death almost synonymous terms." I suppose you believe that if you lie often enough, you can get away with it. This is but one (minor) example of the lying engaged in by Holocaust deniers such as yourself, Giwer. >> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing to >> do with archaeology [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Solomon's Stables and all the rest of the crap believers claim exist but > is unknown to science. Easily. The Latter Day Saints are about a millenium late in settling Utah as compared to Native Americans. On the other hand, the Jewish People lived in and around the present location of Israel more than a millenium prior to the birth of Christ. Nor have the Latter Day Saints been the victims of genocide. But what are facts to morons like you, Giwer? You needn't bother to respond to this post, Giwer, you Nazi son of a bitch, because my present post says all that needs saying with respect to you and your ilk. You've been caught in a lie, your credibility (rather any tattered thread thereof which you imagined that you had) is gone, and I won't waste further time with you. Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 >>>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > it. This is but one (minor) example of the lying engaged in by Holocaust > deniers such as yourself, Giwer. I suppose that people will in fact some day read what I wrote and usually what I respond to. The claim was there were confessions to gas chambers in Nuremberg. I said there was none in the transcription. You have not produced anything from the transcript. Nor have you produced a statement by an SS member to the effect that there were gas chambers. You have produced something that is not footnoted and cannot be determined to be other than the invention of the writer. Of course I have quit hoping believers will ever be bright enough to respond to the subject at hand. >>> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing to >>> do with archaeology [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Solomon's Stables and all the rest of the crap believers claim exist but >> is unknown to science. > Easily. The Latter Day Saints are about a millenium late in settling Utah > as compared to Native Americans. On the other hand, the Jewish People lived > in and around the present location of Israel more than a millenium prior to > the birth of Christ. Nor have the Latter Day Saints been the victims of > genocide. There is no evidence there were any Jews or Judeans prior to the 2nd c. BC. The people and the religion appear out of no where without the least archaeological or historical evidence of existence prior to that century. They appear to be an invented religion like the LDS. That aside, having lived in a place many centuries ago is not a claim to the place today. That they all left voluntarily or converted to Islam or Christianity does not support any such claim. If there are those dumb enough to believe the legend that they were expelled by Rome, then they have a gripe with Italy not the Palestinians. > But what are facts to morons like you, Giwer? You needn't bother to respond > to this post, Giwer, you Nazi son of a bitch, because my present post says > all that needs saying with respect to you and your ilk. You've been caught > in a lie, your credibility (rather any tattered thread thereof which you > imagined that you had) is gone, and I won't waste further time with you. You are clearly ignorant of history and archaeology. You have some idiot delusion that members of a religion have a claim to land because members of that religion happened to be there a couple thousand years ago. Genetic studies have been done. They are conclusive. The Palestinians and the Sephardic Jews are the same people. The Ashkenazi from eastern Europe are not related to them. Even their ancestors never lived there even if that were a recognized basis for a claim to the personal property of other people. SignatureWill the Iraq surge be remembered along with WWI attempts to break through the western front? -- The Iron Webmaster, 3743 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Iraqi democracy http://www.giwersworld.org/911/armless.phtml a3 >>>>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>>>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > not footnoted and cannot be determined to be other than the invention of > the writer. Lying a.shole, what was quoted was a finding by a Judge of the Court. Do you suppose that it was based on nothing at all? It was based on testimony, from liberating military, from liberated camp survivors, and from German prisoners, as well as on documentary evidence. > Of course I have quit hoping believers will ever be bright enough to > respond to the subject at hand. You have a set, a.shole, to accuse someone else of not being "bright enough." You are betting into a royal flush holding a six-high hand, and the only people who think that your hand is a winner are clods like you who haven't two neurons in what passes for your brains. You live, instead, on bigotry and hatred. It's all you are capable of. >>>> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing to >>>> do with archaeology [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > archaeological or historical evidence of existence prior to that century. > They appear to be an invented religion like the LDS. http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/merneptah-stele-faq.htm gives evidence from the 13th century BC for the existence of Israel as a people. http://www.momentmag.com/olam/Apr06/MOM-2006-04_mazar.html is one of many links that can be found that describe, at a minimum, artifacts illustrating the existence of an Israelite earlier than 2nd BC (that is, one doesn't have to believe in either the historicity of King David or the reiligious authenticity of the Bible to understand the significance of the bulla dating to the late 7th century BC. > That aside, having lived in a place many centuries ago is not a claim to > the place today. That they all left voluntarily or converted to Islam or > Christianity does not support any such claim. If there are those dumb > enough to believe the legend that they were expelled by Rome, then they > have a gripe with Italy not the Palestinians. Let's see. You argue that having lived many centuries ago in a place and leaving voluntarily does not support a claim to that place. So the Palestinian claim to today's Israel is based on ...? Having lived on the land (in most cases not a claim to having owned the land per se) and having left it in 1948-1949 VOLUNTARILY as a result of them being told to do so by their Arab Bretheren who warned that they would be killed in the war to push the Jews into the sea. In fact, today's Palestinians weren't Palestinians in 1948, were they, Matty? >> But what are facts to morons like you, Giwer? You needn't bother to >> respond to this post, Giwer, you Nazi son of a bitch, because my present [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > delusion that members of a religion have a claim to land because members > of that religion happened to be there a couple thousand years ago. They certainly have a right to purchase the land. And they certainly have a legal right pursuant to international law, since the country was established per UN vote. > Genetic studies have been done. They are conclusive. The Palestinians and > the Sephardic Jews are the same people. The Ashkenazi from eastern Europe > are not related to them. Even their ancestors never lived there even if > that were a recognized basis for a claim to the personal property of other > people. Genetics notwithstanding, the Palestinian people and the Israelies are not the same people. The former have been taught from birth, and their ancestors were taught from birth, that their religion dictates that Jews are for killing. The latter have been taught, from birth, that their heritage and their religion is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 >>>>> Go to http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm where they have >>>>> the Trial transcripts.. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > testimony, from liberating military, from liberated camp survivors, and > from German prisoners, as well as on documentary evidence. And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of gas-chambers", to. no comfession by a guard that there were gas-chambers. No matter what proof is presented that he is wrong, he will continue to tap dance away from an admission of error or lies. He doesn't care how beg a fool he makes of himself with the 95% who know he is posting garbage; he's trolling for the 1% ignorant enough to be taken in by neoNazi propaganda, ... > And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of > gas-chambers", to. no comfession by a guard that there were gas-chambers. No > matter what proof is presented that he is wrong, he will continue to tap > dance away from an admission of error or lies. He doesn't care how beg a > fool he makes of himself with the 95% who know he is posting garbage; he's > trolling for the 1% ignorant enough to be taken in by neoNazi propaganda, I always stick with exactly what was said that I am in fact challenging. If folks want to come along later and ignore the thread and talk about something else that is your business. But please do not pretend it satisfies the claim in the thread to which I responded. That is dishonest. SignatureThe war on terror can last for thirty years. Israel claims to have been fighting terrorism for 58 years and there is no end in sight. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3729 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1 > ... >> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > something else that is your business. But please do not pretend it > satisfies the claim in the thread to which I responded. That is dishonest. You claimed no mention of gas chambers. That was a lie. You then tried to change to no confession of gas chambers by an SS officer. That was dishonest. Keep up the good work. You do more to discredit neo-Nazism than every sane person in the world combined.. >> ... >>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> something else that is your business. But please do not pretend it >> satisfies the claim in the thread to which I responded. That is dishonest. > You claimed no mention of gas chambers. > That was a lie. > You then tried to change to no confession of gas chambers by an SS officer. > That was dishonest. > Keep up the good work. > You do more to discredit neo-Nazism than every sane person in the world > combined.. I said what I said and need not repeat it again. There is still no physical evidence of gas chambers and you do not present any. SignatureSenior military in Iraq against the troop increase are replaced. Consensus building Neocon style. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3742 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1 >>> ... >>>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > There is still no physical evidence of gas chambers and you do not present > any. http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/MainCampsEng.html or http://tinyurl.com/ypkqma Giwer posted that all of the camps were in Poland, American troops got nowhere near them, that there was no confession of gas chambers by an SS officer, and no physical evidence of gas chambers. What Giwer conveniently omits is that while the so-called death camps were all in Poland, there were concentration camps all over Europe. And at least some of those camps had gas chambers. If one clicks on the above link, and then chooses "The Concentration Camp" link, and then selects the "Sachsenhausen" link, one can read about a camp located in Germany in which gas chambers was constructed. What one can also read is a confession to that effect by an SS officer (the camp commandant). Of interest, also is Buchenwald. Use the links as above, then click on "Buchenwald" (rather than "Sachsenhausen"). Buchenwald, also located in Germany, was a concentration camp in which prisoners were routinely murdered. Giwer thinks there's some sort of distinction between mass murder carried out through the use of gas chambers, as opposed to mass murder carried out by other means. Buchenwald was liberated by American troops. There is no reason to doubt the physical evidence as collected by the American army, and the Nuremberg testimoney re Buchenwald. There is a link to Edward R. Murrow's report from Buchenwald. Giwer will tell you that Murrow "made it up." Another link of interest re gas chambers that can be reached by using the above link is the link "Majdanek" link. From there one can use the link at the bottom of the article to read about Giwer's non-existent gas chambers. At the end of the day, Giwer, who on this newsgroup attempts to hide behind his violation of the scientific method, called into question the overwhelming body of evidence that establishes the reality of the Holocaust. In doing so, Giwer ignores one of the most fundamental principles of science: Occam's Razor. This principle indicates that when faced with a multitude of possible choices for a single cause, the simpliest one is most often the correct one. Or, as stated by Newton: "Isaac Newton stated the rule: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." Giwer wishes you to believe that literally thousands of people, from simple peasants who had been incarcerated in the camps, to multinational judges and prosecutors in Nuremberg, to widely scattered and numerous Russian army personnel and American army personnel and British army personnel, reporters from the Allied nations of World War II and thousands of civilians who lived around the large number of camps scattered around Europe, have all engaged in a massive campaign of lies and manufacture of evidence, in order to ... do precisely what?? Justify the existence of Israel? Not every witness was a Jew. Not every Jew wanted to go live in a country that did not exist in 1946. The Nuremberg Trial ended in 1946, two years prior to the UN action that created Israel. Invent a reason to execute captured Nazis? As victors, did the Allies need to manufacture a conspiracy to do as they would with the defeated? How was cooperation with this massive conspiracy enforced? No, at the end of the day, Giwer is, as are all Holocaust survivors, either incredibly ignorant, or simply a liar. Pick one or other schweinhund. Let us know your preference. I'm done with you; certainly you will nitpick the above post, perhaps deny that you stated some of the things that I mention in the first paragraph of my post (notwithstanding the existence of Google), and take issue with the veracity of the source I've cited (which is just one among many, many available on the internet, which in turn is just a fraction of the sources that exist in the world). Have at it, schweinhund. You, and your ilk, have no credibility, because save for a small, small fraction, the world knows you and your program. Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 > >>> ... > >>>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > with the defeated? How was cooperation with this massive conspiracy > enforced? If it's a conspiracy, then quite a few Nazis are in it too. I am thinking of the Germans who have freely confessed to involvement in the murder of Jews in the death camps. Some of them show no remorse about it. Hard to reconcile with a pro-Jewish conspiracy, to believe which you would really have to hate Jews intensely, which just confirms that the idea of the Holocaust is wholly acceptable to some people. > No, at the end of the day, Giwer is, as are all Holocaust survivors, either > incredibly ignorant, or simply a liar. Pick one or other schweinhund. Let [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > your ilk, have no credibility, because save for a small, small fraction, the > world knows you and your program. The attitude of Holocaust deniers can be summed up as: "The murder of six million Jews never happened, but it served them right that it did." Alan ... > If it's a conspiracy, then quite a few Nazis are in it too. I am > thinking of the Germans who have freely confessed to involvement in the > murder of Jews in the death camps. Some of them show no remorse about > it. Hard to reconcile with a pro-Jewish conspiracy, to believe which you > would really have to hate Jews intensely, which just confirms that the > idea of the Holocaust is wholly acceptable to some people. You still present no physical evidence of gas chambers. Why is that? Is it so hard? ... > The attitude of Holocaust deniers can be summed up as: "The murder of > six million Jews never happened, but it served them right that it did." No one would ever say the thousands given anal probes by space aliens deserved it. Perhaps you would like to present actuarial evidence of a missing six million from before and after the war instead. Substituting one claim without physical evidence for another claim without physical evidence is not what a rational person would do. SignatureThe total failure in Iraq is not the execution of the post war strategy but the war itself. There was never a way it could win. No people have ever accepted foreigners ruling them. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3718 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Blame Israel http://www.ussliberty.org a10 >>>> ... >>>>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > gas chambers was constructed. What one can also read is a confession to > that effect by an SS officer (the camp commandant). Is the concept of physical evidence beyond you? You can READ about them all you want. I said physical evidence of gas chambers. You can READ about Santa Claus and alien abductions and witchcraft and chulpacabra too. What does read about mean to a rational person? Signature"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed." archliberal Dwight David Eisenhower -- The Iron Webmaster, 3745 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml commentary http://www.giwersworld.org/opinion/running.phtml a5 >>>>> ... >>>>>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Santa Claus and alien abductions and witchcraft and chulpacabra too. What > does read about mean to a rational person? A rational person understands that, as one example, physical evidence includes photographs. Of which there are plenty. Now two final points, Schweinhund: You have been asked variations of this question time and again, and you have evaded it time and again. So let's be very clear here: There are no remains of Columbus' three original ships in existence. In fact, the site of Columbus' original 1492 landfall is still somewhat uncertain. We do have a copy of the original log of the first voyage. Do you, or do you not, accept that Columbus left Spain in 1492, seeking a western route to the Orient (China), in three wooden vessels named Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria? If so, distinguish your acceptance from the situation with respect to Nazi gas chambers. I notice that you have not responded to my post regarding your claims that: ] 1. all of the Nazi camps in which there were gas chambers (did you mean "alleged" gas chambers) were in Poland, which claim has been shown to be wrong; 2. that American soliders could, therefore, never have been near a Nazi camp that had gas chambers, which claim has been shown to be wrong; 3. that there had been no confession by an SS officer of the existence of Nazi gas chambers, claim has been shown to be wrong; 4. and that there is no physical evidence of the existence of Nazi gas chambers; (which claim, although irrelevant today because the remains of such gas chambers did exist for all to see immediately after World War II), has also been shown to be wrong because phyical evidence includes, for example, photographs and written records. So, Schweinhund, how often does one have to show your claims to be pure fiction before you will just crawl back to your trailer and spend the day waiting for the welfare check to arrive, rather than posting fiction on the internet? Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 >>>>>> ... >>>>>>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >>> Germany in which gas chambers was constructed. What one can also read is >>> a confession to that effect by an SS officer (the camp commandant). >> Is the concept of physical evidence beyond you? You can READ about them >> all you want. I said physical evidence of gas chambers. You can READ about >> Santa Claus and alien abductions and witchcraft and chulpacabra too. What >> does read about mean to a rational person? > A rational person understands that, as one example, physical evidence > includes photographs. Of which there are plenty. I have seen thousands of photos of alien space ships and ghosts and even a few of fairies. I have a photo of myself floating in mid air. What is it you believe about photographs? A photo of a gas chambers has to obviously a gas chamber without any caption at all. A caption does not make a light in the sky an alien space ship. Reading the statements of people like you dispels any idea propaganda is a difficult skill to master. > Now two final points, Schweinhund: > You have been asked variations of this question time and again, and you have > evaded it time and again. So let's be very clear here: > There are no remains of Columbus' three original ships in existence. In > fact, the site of Columbus' original 1492 landfall is still somewhat [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Pinta and Santa Maria? If so, distinguish your acceptance from the > situation with respect to Nazi gas chambers. There is copious physical evidence the Americas exist. There is none that gas chambers exist. I would say that is a significant difference. Is there anything else? > I notice that you have not responded to my post regarding your claims that: > 1. all of the Nazi camps in which there were gas chambers (did you mean > "alleged" gas chambers) were in Poland, which claim has been shown to be > wrong; Arguing as to where there is no physical evidence of gas chambers is immaterial as there is no such physical evidence any place. > 2. that American soliders could, therefore, never have been near a Nazi camp > that had gas chambers, which claim has been shown to be wrong; There is no physical evidence of gas chambers any place. What is your point? > 3. that there had been no confession by an SS officer of the existence of > Nazi gas chambers, claim has been shown to be wrong; I said there was nothing in the Nuremberg transcript which stands unrefuted. But if there is or is not there is still no physical evidence of gas chambers. > 4. and that there is no physical evidence of the existence of Nazi gas > chambers; (which claim, although irrelevant today because the remains of > such gas chambers did exist for all to see immediately after World War II), > has also been shown to be wrong because phyical evidence includes, for > example, photographs and written records. Neither photographs nor written records constitute physical evidence. See photos of alien spacecraft and the confession of witches for details. > So, Schweinhund, how often does one have to show your claims to be pure > fiction before you will just crawl back to your trailer and spend the day > waiting for the welfare check to arrive, rather than posting fiction on the > internet? Why do you not produce physical evidence of gas chambers like a rational person and stop talking about pictures of lights in the sky? SignatureIf the Iraq war were WWII we would have paid for half of it already. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3748 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Lawful to bomb Israelis http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a11 >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> And Matt, as always, has changed his claim from "no mention of [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > few of fairies. I have a photo of myself floating in mid air. What is it > you believe about photographs? A rational person dismisses photos of alien space ships and ghosts and fairies, as well as a photo of a Schweinhund floating in air, as being in violation of the weight of mountains of contrary evidence, and/or as being in violation of phyiscal laws (such as the law of gravity in the case of the floating Schweinhund). A rational person further understands that fake photographs are created for reasons by individuals typically having individual motives or motives that involve at most a few people who are looking to make money and/or to have a laugh. Photographs of gas chambers taken as, or immediately after, the camps were liberated, comport with the written records of the Nazis themselves from times prior to the construction of the camps and the liberation of the camps, and records created in the camps themselves. They also mess rather well with the stated desire of the Nazis to exterminate various populations, including "the Jews." Such photographs are also consistent with the physical evidence of bodies that were not disposed of prior to the liberation of the camps. And, not only was there was no reason for the photos to have been faked, it would have been impossible to create such a widespread conspiracy and to maintain such conspiracy in secret. > A photo of a gas chambers has to obviously a gas chamber without any > caption at all. A caption does not make a light in the sky an alien space > ship. Reading the statements of people like you dispels any idea > propaganda is a difficult skill to master. Your two sentences immediately above is incomprehensible gibberish. >> Now two final points, Schweinhund: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > There is copious physical evidence the Americas exist. Irrelevant, immaterial, and evasive. That the Americas exist has nothing to do with how Columbus arrived in the Americas. Indeed, it has nothing to do with whether Columbus even made a voyage in 1492. > There is none that gas chambers exist. I would say that is a significant > difference. Is there anything else? You are simply using a double standard, and it is clear to all rational people that you are doing so. With respect to Nazi gas chambers, you are requiring presently existing "physical evidence" of gas chambers, where "physical evidence" is narrowly and erroneously defined by you to pervert its customary meaning. By your definition of "physical evidence," you mean to exclude the massive amount of contemporaneous documentation that clearly establishes the motive for having created the gas chambers, the manner in which they were constructed, the materials that were used in construction, the gas that was used in the operation of the gas chambers, and the means by which the product of the gas chambers were disposed of. You also mean to exclude contemporaneous photographic evidence, as well as contemporaneous testimentiary evidence. When it comes to gas chambers, you define "physical evidence" as "evidence consisting only of a Nazi gas chamber or the remains thereof." Yet you readily accept that in 1492, Columbus made landfall in "the Americas" after having set sail from Spain in three wooden vessels named Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria. There is no physical evidence that these vessels ever existed; that is, no physical evidence in the sense that you demand to prove the existence of Nazi gas chambers. Not one shred of wood, bark, rope or sail cloth remains of those three vessels. No contemporaneous photograph. Yet you accept the historicity of those ships. A rational person does that because of the vast bulk of contemporaneously created supporting evidence for the existence of those ships, and the use of them by Columbus in 1492. And, a rational person accepts the existence of Nazi gas chambers for precisely the same reason that people accept that the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria existed. >> I notice that you have not responded to my post regarding your claims >> that: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Arguing as to where there is no physical evidence of gas chambers is > immaterial as there is no such physical evidence any place. There is physical evidence of gas chambers, by the rational and quite ordinary and accepted definition of "physical evidence." You simply choose to create your own, rather exceptional and limited definition of that term. And you do this because ... you are either rather stupid or you are an anti-Semitic, bigoted son of a bitch. Do let us know which. >> 2. that American soliders could, therefore, never have been near a Nazi >> camp that had gas chambers, which claim has been shown to be wrong; > > There is no physical evidence of gas chambers any place. What is your > point? There is physical evidence of gas chambers, by the rational and quite ordinary and accepted definition of "physical evidence." You simply choose to create your own, rather exceptional and limited definition of that term. And you do this because ... you are either rather stupid or you are an anti-Semitic, bigoted son of a bitch. Do let us know which. >> 3. that there had been no confession by an SS officer of the existence of >> Nazi gas chambers, claim has been shown to be wrong; Oh, but there is, and I cited it to you on a link that you had before you, alleged had visited, and simply dismissed notwithstanding that the Nuremberg transcript clearly includes such a confession. That you choose to use a definition of "transcript" that is narrow, and therefore quite wrong (a trial transcript always includes such pronouncements from the Bench as the trial judge(s) choose to make). > I said there was nothing in the Nuremberg transcript which stands > unrefuted. But if there is or is not there is still no physical evidence > of gas chambers. Two points: (1) If there is material in the transcripts regarding admissions by Nazis, including SS personnel that gas chambers were used by the Nazis to exterminate civilians, why should anyone choose to believe your statements to the contrary, made more than six decades after the fact, rather than the findings of a court made immediately after World War II that were based upon mountains of evidence of all types including such admissions? (2) There is physical evidence of gas chambers, by the rational and quite ordinary and accepted definition of "physical evidence.". You simply choose to create your own, rather exceptional and limited definition of that term. And you do this because ... you are either rather stupid or you are an anti-Semitic, bigoted son of a bitch. Do let us know which. >> 4. and that there is no physical evidence of the existence of Nazi gas >> chambers; (which claim, although irrelevant today because the remains of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Neither photographs nor written records constitute physical evidence. See > photos of alien spacecraft and the confession of witches for details. There is physical evidence of gas chambers, by the rational and quite ordinary and accepted definition of "physical evidence." You simply choose to create your own, rather exceptional and limited definition of that term. And you do this because ... you are either rather stupid or you are an anti-Semitic, bigoted son of a bitch. Do let us know which. >> So, Schweinhund, how often does one have to show your claims to be pure >> fiction before you will just crawl back to your trailer and spend the day [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Why do you not produce physical evidence of gas chambers like a rational > person and stop talking about pictures of lights in the sky? Two reasons: (1) Because physical evidence that the Nazis used gas chambers to exterminate people is already all over the internet, and it is all over the world in paper form. I've already shown you links were the physical evidence is presented and discussed, including photographic evidence. I could show you many more. But you would simply deny all of the evidence that does not suit your anti-Semitic, Nazi predispositon. So why should I bother? (2) People already know the truth of what I've been posting. Basically, the whole world knows. Holocaust deniers a whole lot smarter and slicker than you have already been shown in courts of law to be nothing more than liers with respect to their positions regarding the Holocaust. Matching wits with you (despite the fact that your are unarmed) is nothing more or less than a few minutes of pleasantly amusing diversion for me, and I will now turn to more productive use of my time. Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 >>>>>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>>>>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >> not footnoted and cannot be determined to be other than the invention of >> the writer. > Lying a.shole, what was quoted was a finding by a Judge of the Court. Do > you suppose that it was based on nothing at all? It was based on testimony, > from liberating military, from liberated camp survivors, and from German > prisoners, as well as on documentary evidence. So me the testimony it was based on if you believe it was based upon testimony. And then show it was by SS types. If you do not do that then you don't have jack. As for what a judge could write, I have read the rules governing the Nuremberg proceedings and there is nothing prohibiting the judge from inventing anything he wanted as there was no appeal from lies in the findings. >> Of course I have quit hoping believers will ever be bright enough to >> respond to the subject at hand. > You have a set, a.shole, to accuse someone else of not being "bright > enough." You are betting into a royal flush holding a six-high hand, and > the only people who think that your hand is a winner are clods like you who > haven't two neurons in what passes for your brains. You live, instead, on > bigotry and hatred. It's all you are capable of. When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you don't have jack. >>>>> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing to >>>>> do with archaeology [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> archaeological or historical evidence of existence prior to that century. >> They appear to be an invented religion like the LDS. > http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/merneptah-stele-faq.htm gives evidence > from the 13th century BC for the existence of Israel as a people. There is nothing on that a non-believer can find to support that assertion. Even the translations of it vary and most call it a place. Further it recounts a war against Libya. That does not explain why believers want to find names of places to the east of Egypt on it. > http://www.momentmag.com/olam/Apr06/MOM-2006-04_mazar.html is one of many > links that can be found that describe, at a minimum, artifacts illustrating > the existence of an Israelite earlier than 2nd BC (that is, one doesn't have > to believe in either the historicity of King David or the reiligious > authenticity of the Bible to understand the significance of the bulla dating > to the late 7th century BC. For some 50-60 years most people have agreed to the "out of Africa" theory and have thus agreed that humans have always lived in bibleland since they left Africa. Also all primates once lived there including Homo Erectus, Gibbons and Orangutans. Showing that people lived there does not show they were the mythical people in the bible stories. This is SCI.archaeology and thus the rules of science apply. That means a book of magic and miracles has no standing whatsoever. Get used to it. >> That aside, having lived in a place many centuries ago is not a claim to >> the place today. That they all left voluntarily or converted to Islam or >> Christianity does not support any such claim. If there are those dumb >> enough to believe the legend that they were expelled by Rome, then they >> have a gripe with Italy not the Palestinians. > Let's see. You argue that having lived many centuries ago in a place and > leaving voluntarily does not support a claim to that place. So the > Palestinian claim to today's Israel is based on ...? Their claim is to their private property which is independent of who has sovereignty over the land. They owned their personal and family land. Europeans showed up, drove them off and stole it. They have never abandoned their claim. They want it back. They have every right to the use of deadly force to gain the return of their private property from the thieves. Holding stolen property even though not the original thief does not mean innocence rather equal guilt in the crime. > Having lived on the > land (in most cases not a claim to having owned the land per se) and having > left it in 1948-1949 VOLUNTARILY as a result of them being told to do so by > their Arab Bretheren who warned that they would be killed in the war to push > the Jews into the sea. In fact, today's Palestinians weren't Palestinians > in 1948, were they, Matty? Leaving to avoid a war zone does not in any manner mean forfeiting property rights. That said Tom Segev, Benny Morris and several other ISRAELI JEWS have using the records of the government of Israel to show they were forced to leave by JEWS and that narrative is a pack of lies suitable only for children too young to face the reality that their parents are thieves and murderers. >>> But what are facts to morons like you, Giwer? You needn't bother to >>> respond to this post, Giwer, you Nazi son of a bitch, because my present >>> post says all that needs saying with respect to you and your ilk. You've >>> been caught in a lie, your credibility (rather any tattered thread >>> thereof which you imagined that you had) is gone, and I won't waste >>> further time with you. >> You are clearly ignorant of history and archaeology. You have some idiot >> delusion that members of a religion have a claim to land because members >> of that religion happened to be there a couple thousand years ago. > They certainly have a right to purchase the land. And they certainly have a > legal right pursuant to international law, since the country was established > per UN vote. The established sovereignty only. It did not have the power to take away private property and in fact did not do so but demanded the rightful owners be permitted to return to their property. >> Genetic studies have been done. They are conclusive. The Palestinians and >> the Sephardic Jews are the same people. The Ashkenazi from eastern Europe >> are not related to them. Even their ancestors never lived there even if >> that were a recognized basis for a claim to the personal property of other >> people. > Genetics notwithstanding, the Palestinian people and the Israelies are not > the same people. Genetics rules. This is a SCIENCE newsgroup. If you want to talk mythology find an appropriate newsgroup. > The former have been taught from birth, and their > ancestors were taught from birth, that their religion dictates that Jews are > for killing. The latter have been taught, from birth, that their heritage > and their religion is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." If they were taught not to kill why did they murder so many tens of thousands of Palestinians as warnings to force 750,000 to flee Palestine? That is from Israeli records and established by jewish Israeli historians. Come back when you are old enough to face what is taught in Israeli gradeschools these days. SignatureWill the Iraq surge be remembered along with WWI attempts to break through the western front? -- The Iron Webmaster, 3743 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml http://www.giwersworld.org >> Lying a.shole, what was quoted was a finding by a Judge of the Court. Do >> you suppose that it was based on nothing at all? It was based on [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you > don't have jack. You claimed there was no mention of gas-chambers: Matt-sh.t. >>>>>> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing >>>>>> to [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > Come back when you are old enough to face what is taught in Israeli > gradeschools these days. ... >> When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you >> don't have jack. > You claimed there was no mention of gas-chambers: Matt-sh.t. As I always say, IN THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT. I did the search years ago and was quite surprised to find no mention. I am still looking for when gas chambers first entered as a matter of testimony in actual court proceedings. In this case I can state for a fact the judges could lie through their teeth without penalty and without fear of reversal. There was no penalty. If you can just show where that judge got the idea of gas chambers you would be a help. I have seen the original Pravda article in translation on the discovery of gas chambers at Auschwitz disguised as car garages and painted blue along with the conveyor belts that carried the bodies to the top of blast furnaces to incinerate them. I presume you discredit that account. I have also read the "official" communist report but it bears little relation to what is shown to touristas today. Therefore I am interested in the first actual trial testimony to compare that to what is shown today. One hopes it exactly matches else the trial was based upon perjury. ... SignatureWhatever happened in the holy holocaust, ending it was never important enough to generate the least bit of gratitude. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3726 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml commentary http://www.giwersworld.org/opinion/running.phtml a5 > ... >>> When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As I always say, IN THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT. I did the search years ago and > was quite surprised to find no mention. One was pointed out to you. > I am still looking for when gas chambers first entered as a matter of > testimony in actual court proceedings. The court findings are part of the court proceedings. > In this case I can state for a fact the judges could lie through their > teeth without penalty and without fear of reversal. There was no penalty. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > ... >> ... >>>> When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you >>>> don't have jack. >>> You claimed there was no mention of gas-chambers: Matt-sh.t. >> As I always say, IN THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT. I did the search years ago and >> was quite surprised to find no mention. > One was pointed out to you. That you are ignorant of the meaning of trial transcript is something only you can correct. >> I am still looking for when gas chambers first entered as a matter of >> testimony in actual court proceedings. > The court findings are part of the court proceedings. And a transcript is not a part of the proceedings but something created separate from the proceedings. Why do you post when you are so ignorant of elementary legal terms? And why post anything at all when you cannot produce any physical evidence of gas chambers? SignatureActs, Romans, Corinthians! Let me fix your ears. -- JC -- The Iron Webmaster, 3747 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml flying saucers http://www.giwersworld.org/flyingsa.html a2 >>> ... >>>>> When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That you are ignorant of the meaning of trial transcript is something only > you can correct. I checked to make ssure that I was correct before posting. Your claim was that "findings" were not part of the transcript. They are. >>> I am still looking for when gas chambers first entered as a matter of >>> testimony in actual court proceedings. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And a transcript is not a part of the proceedings but something created > separate from the proceedings. Of course. They are the record of the proceedings; including the findings. First you claimed there were no mentions of gas chambers in the Nuremburg transcripts. Someone quoted one to you. You then retreated to a claim that since the quote was from the findings it was not part of the transcript. When evidence was offered that the findings are part of the transcript you retreat to irrrelevant nonsense about transcripts being created seperate from the proceedings; which is self-evidently true, but has nothing to do with your earlier lie. > Why do you post when you are so ignorant of elementary legal terms? Findings are part of every trial transcript. Mention of gas-chambers has been quoted from the findings of the transcripts of the Nurenburg trials. Your claim that there is no such mention is refuted. You are now trying to change the subject, > And why post anything at all when you cannot produce any physical evidence > of gas chambers? By your logic I cannot be posting at all,since the hospital where I was born was torn down years ago and there is no longer any trace of it;so I must not have been born. On Feb 16, 5:36 am, <joerevskel...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: > >>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > You then retreated to a claim that since the quote was from the findings it > was not part of the transcript. One sad piece of evidence of the fact of gas chambers is http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/hoesstest.html where the Nazi commander of a death camp not only admits to the fact but explains the methods of operation... In a matter of less than 1 minute I have found more than 10 links that refute giwer and his nazi bretheren ! > On Feb 16, 5:36 am, <joerevskel...@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>> separate from the proceedings. >> Of course. They are the record of the proceedings; including the findings. >> First you claimed there were no mentions of gas chambers in the Nuremburg >> transcripts. >> Someone quoted one to you. >> You then retreated to a claim that since the quote was from the findings it >> was not part of the transcript. > One sad piece of evidence of the fact of gas chambers is > http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/hoesstest.html > where the Nazi commander of a death camp not only admits to the fact > but explains the methods of operation... > In a matter of less than 1 minute I have found more than 10 links that > refute giwer and his nazi bretheren ! You apparently mean where he recounts what Himmler told him about what was going on off in the woods some place and how he had to ask others about details and he himself expresses no personal knowledge. Do you have physical evidence of whatever it was off in the woods? Do you have pictures of what is off in the woods showing the necessary features of a cyanide gas chamber? Did you in fact read what you found or did you jump to what some one wrote that it said? You really should take the time to read the link itself and ignore the leading questions. That is improper when the prosecutor is questioning his own witness. Do you not think it strange he had to be told what was going on in his own camp? SignatureBefore the Iraq war Brad Pitt was ridiculed for filming kite flying in Baghdad. Looks like he was right. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3730 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml environmentalism http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a9 > You apparently mean where he recounts what Himmler told him about what >was > going on off in the woods some place and how he had to ask others about details > and he himself expresses no personal knowledge. Do you have physical evidence of > whatever it was off in the woods? Riiiiight. Your remarks indicate that you went nowhere near the link ! Your claim was that there was no mention of gas chambers in the Nuremberg trial transcripts. Your attempts at lying your way out of this is not working. You are avoiding the questioning of Hoess by Dr Kauffmann in the link that I posted.. Further..... http://death-camps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_auschwitz.html being a history. http://www.mazal.org/Default.htm containing Nazi War Crime Trials: Nuernberg Military Tribunal ('Green Series') [ Nuremberg ] : Volumes I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ,VIII and IX are now complete. Work continues on Volume X. These are filled with witness accounts of the gas chambers in ALL the death camps.. You are a sad piece of sh.t giwer >>>>>>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>>>>>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > testimony. And then show it was by SS types. If you do not do that then > you don't have jack. Hmmm... First your claim was "[A]nd not one word on gas chambers." Now, when shown the findings of the Nuremberg court, you want to see testimony from "SS types." Are you saying, for example, that testimony from US soldiers who liberated the camps is unworthy of belief? > As for what a judge could write, I have read the rules governing the > Nuremberg proceedings and there is nothing prohibiting the judge from > inventing anything he wanted as there was no appeal from lies in the > findings. Except, fool, that there were other judges, court transcripts, newspaper reporters, and the whole world was watching. Do you seriously assert that a judge made up a finding out of whole cloth? >>> Of course I have quit hoping believers will ever be bright enough to >>> respond to the subject at hand. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you > don't have jack. As noted above, it was YOUR claim that the Yale website contained not one word regarding gas chambers. That claim has been proven to be wrong. Period. End of YOUR credibility. End of story. >>>>>> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing >>>>>> to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > There is nothing on that a non-believer can find to support that > assertion. Fancy words. What do they mean? Clearly, there was a people known as Israel, unless of course you believe that a 13th century BC was in on the plot to convince 20th and 21st century people that a Holocaust that never happened actually happened. > Even the translations of it vary and most call it a place. Further it > recounts a war against Libya. That does not explain why believers want to > find names of places to the east of Egypt on it. Wrong again, schweinhund. "The black granite stela primarily commemorates a victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel among others.[1] " From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele I leave it to you to go to the link and check the footnote. You'll find that the quote is from a very authoritative source. >> http://www.momentmag.com/olam/Apr06/MOM-2006-04_mazar.html is one of >> many links that can be found that describe, at a minimum, artifacts [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Gibbons and Orangutans. Showing that people lived there does not show they > were the mythical people in the bible stories. One does not need to believe that any of the religious aspects of the bible are true in order to decide that the mention of a person in the bible and the existence of a bulla naming that person in order to be very impressed that the bulla is evidence of a historical person who was named in the bible. That person was Jewish. The bulla is dated 7th century BC. You can't tap dance around that by mentioning human migrations dating, at a minimum, to hundreds of thousands of years prior to the date of the bulla. > This is SCI.archaeology and thus the rules of science apply. That means a > book of magic and miracles has no standing whatsoever. Get used to it. It's the bulla that has scientific standing. It is dated to the 7th century, and names a Jewish person. Get over it, schweinhund. >>> That aside, having lived in a place many centuries ago is not a claim to >>> the place today. That they all left voluntarily or converted to Islam or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > thieves. Holding stolen property even though not the original thief does > not mean innocence rather equal guilt in the crime. One problem with your comments is that they neglect to mention that virtually all of the so-called Palestinians who were in the land of Israel left voluntarily, not because the Israelis drove them away. In fact, they left at the behest of the Arab League, who warned them that either the Jews would slaughter them, or that they would be killed in the coming war to drive the Jews into the sea. A second problem is that virtually none of the so-called Palestinians "owned" the land; most were living on land owned by absentee landlords. The third problem is that in the British Mandate and the Balfour Declaration of 1917, Britain recognised Jewish demand for a homeland, and the Jewish population increased from 10% in 1918 to 30% in 1936. In 1937 it was decided by Britain to partition Palestine with Jewish and Arab states; however, this idea was dropped as WWII loomed. After WWII Jewish immigration grew to such an extent that Britain, trying to avert confrontation between Arab and Jew slowed the process resulting in Jewish terrorism against British troops. The Palestine problem was submitted to the UN in 1947 who passed the resolution of partition. Britain ended the mandate on 14th May 1948 when the independent state of Israel in Palestine was established. In spite of the UN plan of 1947 Palestine ceased to exist as a political entity after the Arab Israeli war of 1948." Thus, the land in question was under the sovereignty of Britain, and the UN then partitioned the land, with the world voting to create the state of Israel. It seems to me that no one stole anything; the Turks lost sovereignty, and the new sovereign partitioned the land per UN vote. And of course those Palestinians who chose to remain in Israel after the partition, were accorded full Israeli citizenship. In short, your view of history is distorted to say the least, and bullshit to call a spade a spade. >> Having lived on the land (in most cases not a claim to having owned the >> land per se) and having left it in 1948-1949 VOLUNTARILY as a result of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Leaving to avoid a war zone does not in any manner mean forfeiting > property rights. You are assuming that those who left did so at the insistence or behest of the Israeli Jews. You are, however, wrong. > That said Tom Segev, Benny Morris and several other ISRAELI JEWS have > using the records of the government of Israel to show they were forced to > leave by JEWS and that narrative is a pack of lies suitable only for > children too young to face the reality that their parents are thieves and > murderers. Citations?? >>>> But what are facts to morons like you, Giwer? You needn't bother to >>>> respond to this post, Giwer, you Nazi son of a bitch, because my [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > private property and in fact did not do so but demanded the rightful > owners be permitted to return to their property. Wrong. >>> Genetic studies have been done. They are conclusive. The Palestinians >>> and the Sephardic Jews are the same people. The Ashkenazi from eastern [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Genetics rules. This is a SCIENCE newsgroup. If you want to talk mythology > find an appropriate newsgroup. My ancestors are Polish and Hungarian. Genetically, we are the same people. Politically we are not. Culturally, we are not. We do not even uniformly share the same religion. Being Jewish is a religious thing. There are Ethiopian Jews, for example, who share nothing at all genetically with European Jews. >> The former have been taught from birth, and their ancestors were taught >> from birth, that their religion dictates that Jews are for killing. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thousands of Palestinians as warnings to force 750,000 to flee Palestine? > That is from Israeli records and established by jewish Israeli historians. Citations to prove the claim of murder of many tens of thousands of Palestinians. And I mean credible citations, schweinhund. > Come back when you are old enough to face what is taught in Israeli > gradeschools these days. LOL. In schools throughout all Muslim lands, school children are taught that Jews bake bread with Muslim blood, that Jews stole Palestine, that Jews are subhumans and the enemies of Allah. In schools in Israel, Jews are taught history, which includes the history of the Jews in so-called Palestine, in which pogroms rivaling those in Eastern Europe were regularly initiated by Arab Muslims. Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 I was born on a farm in Southern Minnesota, my grandparents spoke German, and the 8:30 AM sunday service was held in German. I had lots of uncles and cousins who spent the war in Germany, obviously sent cause they understood the language. Had the Halocaust been cooked up by the Jews, they would have said something. They *never* disputed any of the myriad reports in the newspapers or movies, and then later TV, about what went on over there. They had no reason to lie. There were no Jews in the county, none of us knew any. The whole attempt to debunk the halocaust implies that they would deceive us, who worked in the field with them. I found them to be honorable men, and this whole thing impunes their character. I've seen translations of SS documents which discuss the effect on men from having to murder Jewish women and kids. We now call the effect PTSB. The gas chambers solved that problem cause then the soldiers did not have to watch the Jews die. > I was born on a farm in Southern Minnesota, my grandparents spoke > German, and the 8:30 AM sunday service was held in German. > I had lots of uncles and cousins who spent the war in Germany, > obviously sent cause they understood the language. > Had the Halocaust been cooked up by the Jews, they would have said > something. They *never* disputed any of the myriad reports in the > newspapers or movies, and then later TV, about what went on over > there. You say Minnesota so I presume they were in the US army. The claims of gas chambers were all by the Russians in Poland. The US Army never got anywhere near Poland. What could have have seen to dispute? Then I ask you how a grunt could know anything? What would any one of them actually see? That is as bad a joke as, "You say you are from Chicago. Do you know Jim?" What would they know other than what they were told? In fact there were two very popular 1950s TV shows explaining the war. They were most popular with vets who said it was the first time they learned what they hell they were doing in such and such a battle. They were clueless. > They had no reason to lie. There were no Jews in the county, > none of us knew any. First off there were no more than 1/2 of 1% of the prewar population of Germany that was Jewish. Most of them were in eastern Germany which again was a place the US Army did not get to. However Gen. Patton wrote that he had a million Jews in the part of Germany he administered so clearly the grunts had no idea what was going on. > The whole attempt to debunk the halocaust implies that they would > deceive us, who worked in the field with them. > I found them to be honorable men, and this whole thing impunes their > character. There you go again. This entire exchange has been about those four places in Poland where the communists, who never lie, claimed to find gas chambers. Yet you enlarge that to the _entire_ holocaust which covers anything and everything negative that happened to a Jew in Europe during that war. Why do you people do this? > I've seen translations of SS documents which discuss the effect on men > from having to murder Jewish women and kids. We now call the effect > PTSB. The gas chambers solved that problem cause then the soldiers did > not have to watch the Jews die. Please tell me where you read those documents as I have searched libraries and the web and have found no such thing. I have however read speculation about Operation Reinhardt and claims that the stress was the cause of switching to gas chambers but I have never found even a footnote to any source document in those stories. There are major problems with the Reinhardt stories if you want to get into them. The main one is as the number gassed decreases the number murdered in the 6-7 months of Reinhardt operations has to have increased as the total has remained the same sacred six million. At the moment those 800 max men assigned to the operation murdered and buried so well they have not been found to this day nearly 4 million people in those 6-7 months. SignatureThe war on terror can last for thirty years. Israel claims to have been fighting terrorism for 58 years and there is no end in sight. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3729 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml Iraqi democracy http://www.giwersworld.org/911/armless.phtml a3 Matt Giwer schrieb: > If it is so important it has to be easy to find. Why don't you learn > to use Google and find it? Or have you already tried and discovered > there is no foundation for the statement and therefore you bluster? Google is not a scientific tool. This is a newsgroup about science and archeology. Please use the newsgroup "fairy-tales" in future. Thanks Matthias Lenggenhager Dipl. Ing. FH > Matt Giwer schrieb: > > If it is so important it has to be easy to find. Why don't you learn > > to use Google and find it? Or have you already tried and discovered > > there is no foundation for the statement and therefore you bluster? > Google is not a scientific tool. > This is a newsgroup about science and archeology. > Please use the newsgroup "fairy-tales" in future. I am aware this is a science newsgroup and I did not start this thread. And if holohuggers had ignored I would have also. However the believers chimed in with much anti-scientific and illogical responses therefore I pointed out the anti-scientific acceptance of stories absent physical evidence. Next time be the first to deal with the holohuggers and I will support you. SignatureThere is only one man in all the world who can bring peace to Iraq and Bush has said he will not. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3731 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1 >>>>>>>> joerevskel...@bellsouth.net wrote: >>>>>>>>>> The heart of the 'Holocaust,' [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Hmmm... First your claim was "[A]nd not one word on gas chambers." First I said there was nothing in the transcript. You should try quoting honestly for the first time. > Now, > when shown the findings of the Nuremberg court, you want to see testimony > from "SS types." Findings are NOT part of the transcript. A transcript is of trial testimony only. Are you so ignorant of court procedure you do not know that? > Are you saying, for example, that testimony from US > soldiers who liberated the camps is unworthy of belief? No American soldier got any where near Poland in WWII therefore no where near gas chambers. As for believing war stories that was a joke when I was growing up. NO ONE ever believed a soldier's war story including other soldiers. Are you one of those who swallowed that "greatest generation" crap? The vets I knew growing up (born in 1945) would have laughed at that title. They were drafted and proud of it. And that was 96% of them. >> As for what a judge could write, I have read the rules governing the >> Nuremberg proceedings and there is nothing prohibiting the judge from >> inventing anything he wanted as there was no appeal from lies in the >> findings. > Except, fool, that there were other judges, court transcripts, newspaper > reporters, and the whole world was watching. Do you seriously assert that a > judge made up a finding out of whole cloth? I said gas chambers are not to be found in the transcript. I then challenged you to find a source for that invention. You are indulging in the fallacy of begging the question rather than answering the challenge. If it is so important it has to be easy to find. Why don't you learn to use Google and find it? Or have you already tried and discovered there is no foundation for the statement and therefore you bluster? >>>> Of course I have quit hoping believers will ever be bright enough to >>>> respond to the subject at hand. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> When you produce what was claimed you will have a case. Until then you >> don't have jack. > As noted above, it was YOUR claim that the Yale website contained not one > word regarding gas chambers. That claim has been proven to be wrong. > Period. End of YOUR credibility. End of story. Please. You are lying about what I said. You are not worth my time if you insist upon lying about what I said. >>>>>>> Apart from the excuvation of the bone ash deposits this has nothing >>>>>>> to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> There is nothing on that a non-believer can find to support that >> assertion. > Fancy words. What do they mean? Clearly, there was a people known as > Israel, unless of course you believe that a 13th century BC was in on the > plot to convince 20th and 21st century people that a Holocaust that never > happened actually happened. It means you silly goose the stele is all in hieroglyphs and not a phonetic word in the entire inscription. That means you cannot find "israel" on it unless you have a very active imagination. So tell me, what are the glyphs for Israel in 13th c. BC Egyptian? Please be specific in your answer as I have an image of the stele on my website to check. >> Even the translations of it vary and most call it a place. Further it >> recounts a war against Libya. That does not explain why believers want to >> find names of places to the east of Egypt on it. > Wrong again, schweinhund. "The black granite stela primarily commemorates a > victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea > People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in > Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam > and Israel among others.[1] " From: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele > I leave it to you to go to the link and check the footnote. You'll find > that the quote is from a very authoritative source. Let me get this straight. Unknown people cannot put things on wikipedia unless they are true. Is that your position? So tell me which were the non-phonetic glyphs for all those names. I did not realize you could read them. But even in the best case for you it has Israel as a city centuries before the bible says a country existed and therefore it says nothing about the existence of biblical Israel. &nb |
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