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Jack Linthicum - 24 Aug 2007 20:23 GMT
The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
quirks of radio carbon dating from an era known for its wildly
fluctuating  levels of C-14 in the atmosphere. His work is further
complicated by the fact that he working with material excavated in the
1930s, stored during WWII, and only examined in the 1960s.

The full article has an expanded outline of the material found and
Conard's interpetation of them.

The Dawn of Art     Volume 60 Number 5, September/October 2007
by Andrew Curry

A controversial scholar claims modern culture was born in the
foothills of the Alps.
[image]     Standing about 11 inches tall, a carving known as the "Lion
Man" is the oldest known depiction of a human with animal features. It
is one of dozens of finely crafted Paleolithic figurines discovered in
the caves of southern Germany. (Courtesy Ulmer Museum, Ulm, Germany,
photograph Kenneth Garrett)

[image]

The search for the origins of civilization has taken archaeologists to
less pleasant places than Swabia. Nestled between France, Switzerland,
and Bavaria, the German region is the heart of Baden-Wuerttemburg, a
state that markets itself as a center for creativity and innovation.
It's no idle boast. Hundreds of small high-tech firms dot the region.
Giants such as Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, and Zeiss are all based in the
gleaming, modern state capital, Stuttgart.

Archaeologist Joachim Hahn discovered this flute, right, carved from
swan bone in the Paleolithic layers of Geißenklösterle. (University of
Tübingen)

American archaeologist Nicholas Conard is convinced Swabia's tradition
of innovation goes back a long way: 40,000 years, give or take a few
thousand. Excavating in caves east of Tübingen, a medieval town 20
miles south of Stuttgart, Conard has unearthed expertly carved
figurines and the oldest musical instruments in the world. The finds
are among the earliest art ever discovered, and they're extremely
sophisticated in terms of craftsmanship, suggesting a surprising
degree of cultural complexity.

Conard claims his finds are evidence of an intense flowering of art
and culture that began in southwestern Germany more than 35,000 years
ago. Although older art and decorations have been found--including
geometric patterns on stones and personal ornaments in South Africa,
as well as drilled shell beads on the shores of the Mediterranean--the
figurines and instruments in Conard's caves are symbolic
representations that reflect a state of mind with which modern humans
can easily identify. "Figurative art began in Swabia, music began in
Swabia," he says. "It couldn't have developed elsewhere, because the
dates are just later elsewhere."

If he's right, it could change the way we look at the development of
humanity. But Conard's conclusions have been controversial from the
start, and he's still fighting an uphill battle to convince colleagues
that the evidence backs him up.

Andrew Curry is a freelance writer in Berlin, Germany, and a frequent
contributor to ARCHAEOLOGY.

http://www.archaeology.org/0709/abstracts/iceage.html
Michael Kuettner - 26 Aug 2007 18:12 GMT
> The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
> September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
> quirks of radio carbon dating from an era known for its wildly
> fluctuating  levels of C-14 in the atmosphere. His work is further
> complicated by the fact that he working with material excavated in the
> 1930s, stored during WWII, and only examined in the 1960s.

Except that the flutes were excavated in 2005.
16 C14 examinations plus thermo-luminiscence.

<http://www.archaeologie-online.de/magazin/fundpunkt/ausgrabungen/2005/weltweit_f
ruehester_nachweis_von_musik/
>

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Jack Linthicum - 26 Aug 2007 18:58 GMT
> > The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
> > September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner

There are exceptions all along, but his biggest problem is the dating
of what was found in the 1930s, correlating it with what he finds now
and getting around some of the 29000 year old items being found below
40,000 year old items.

He has the same problem the "before Clovis" and "coastal migration"
groups have/had in America. Proving something he thinks is provable
against the disbelief of his audience.
Michael Kuettner - 26 Aug 2007 22:14 GMT
>> > The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
>> > September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> groups have/had in America. Proving something he thinks is provable
> against the disbelief of his audience.

The article cited by me suggests that the stratas are intact.
The flute(s) seem to have been found in an intact context.
I'll dig a little further tomorrow.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Jack Linthicum - 26 Aug 2007 22:49 GMT
> >> > The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
> >> > September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner

The flute is unimportant except as frosting on the cake. Conard is
trying to sell this site as the precursor of all modern culture. The
article tells the dating story and shows the art in six magazine pages
with photographs. I am not sure if Archaeology will put the entire
story on line but this is in the September/October 2007 issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/12/17/coolsc.ancientart/index.html
http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/qvo/pm/pm342-02.html
http://www.urgeschichte.uni-tuebingen.de/fileadmin/downloads/Conard/MunzelBear04.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4713323.stm
Michael Kuettner - 27 Aug 2007 20:50 GMT
>> >> > The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
>> >> > September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> The flute is unimportant except as frosting on the cake.

No, it isn't unimportant. It's firmly dated, AFAICT.
It's the oldest flute of the world now.

> Conard is trying to sell this site as the precursor of all modern culture.

Nope. Not all modern culture. Things like music and figurative art, eg.
He also states that the people back then had a modern mindset.

> The article tells the dating story and shows the art in six magazine pages
> with photographs. I am not sure if Archaeology will put the entire
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.urgeschichte.uni-tuebingen.de/fileadmin/downloads/Conard/MunzelBear04.pdf
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4713323.stm

I can find no hints of dating problems or wrong C14 dates in any of those
articles.
Except that Conard himself gives a little history about the excavations.

So he is partly correct : Music and figurative art were first developed here.
Until we find older instruments elsewhere.
Whether it _originated_ from here or if there was independent invention
elsewhere
in another question.

Conclusio : Apart from the hype in press releases, Conard has an argument.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Jack Linthicum - 27 Aug 2007 21:40 GMT
> >> >> > The opening paragraphs of an interesting article in Archaeology,
> >> >> > September/October, 2007. An archaeologist's thesis hanging on the
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner

"While most arcaheologists think the Aurignacian began about 36,000
years ago, Conard is convinced that the Swabian Aurignacian began
thousands of years before it emerged elsewhere in Europe--perhaps even
10,000 years before." from Archaeology

http://www.the-conference.com/JConfAbs/6/BG03.pdf

"In some cases these production spikes can lead to younger dates
stratigraphically, underlying older dates from secure contexts" Conard

"There are dozens of dates in Europe for the Aurignacian nothing older
that 36,000 (years). This is the only case with a date of 40,000. It
seems unlikely that people bearing the same culture were at
Geiszenkloesterle 4,000 years ahead of the rest of Europe" Francesco
d'Errico, University of Bordeaux. Stratigraphically you come up with
the same dates as the rest of Europe.

Conard started out using Accelrated Mass Spectronomy and still swears
by it. "Yet many colleagues feel Conard's faith in radio carbon dating
is too strong".

A sample paper from d'Errico

    Journal of World Prehistory
Publisher    Springer Netherlands

Issue    Volume 13, Number 1 / March, 1999

The Chronology and Taphonomy of the Earliest Aurignacian and Its
Implications for the Understanding of Neandertal Extinction

João Zilhão1 Contact Information and Francesco d'Errico2 Contact
Information
(1)     Ministério da Cultura, Instituto Português de Arqueologia, 1300
Lisboa, Portugal
(2)     UMR 5808 du CNRS, Institut de Préhistoire et Géologic du
Quaternaire, Université de Bordeaux, 33405 Talence, France

Abstract  The view that the Châtelperronian is the acculturation of
late Neandertals brought about by contact with nearby moderns assumes
an age of ca. 40,000 years ago for the earliest Aurignacian. However,
the cultural meaning of the dated samples is dubious, either because
they were collected from palimpsests containing other archaeological
components or because the definition of the associated artifact suites
as Aurignacian is not warranted. Wherever sample context is
archaeologically secure, the earliest occurrences of the Aurignacian
date to no earlier than ca. 36,500 B.P. This is in accordance with the
strati-graphic pattern demonstrating the precedence of the
Châtelperronian and equivalent technocomplexes of central and eastern
Europe, consistently dated by various methods to before ca. 38,000
B.P. Given the Neandertal authorship of the Châtelperronian, it must
be concluded that Neandertals had already accomplished their own
Middle-to-Upper Paleolithic transition when the first Aurignacian
moderns arrived in Europe. Therefore, such a transition occurred
simultaneously and independently among European Neandertals and sub-
Saharan moderns, across biological boundaries and irrespective of
geographical proximity. This suggests that its causes lie in the
domain of social process, not in that of putative biological mutations
that would have bestowed symbolism upon a lineage of
a "chosen people"
Michael Kuettner - 27 Aug 2007 22:18 GMT
On Aug 27, 3:50 pm, "Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> schrieb im
> Newsbeitragnews:1188164944.022590.95830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

<snip>
> > The flute is unimportant except as frosting on the cake.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Conclusio : Apart from the hype in press releases, Conard has an argument.

Jack :
-----------------------
"While most arcaheologists think the Aurignacian began about 36,000
years ago, Conard is convinced that the Swabian Aurignacian began
thousands of years before it emerged elsewhere in Europe--perhaps even
10,000 years before." from Archaeology

http://www.the-conference.com/JConfAbs/6/BG03.pdf

------------------------

This link states exactly what I've said.
The earliest instruments come from that area (Geißenklösterle, Vogelherd,
Sirgenstein, etc).
It also states that the best evidence of Aurignacian points to 40 kya.
So what's the problem ?

Jack :
------------------------
"In some cases these production spikes can lead to younger dates
stratigraphically, underlying older dates from secure contexts" Conard
------------------------
Yep. So what ?
That statement is correct.

Jack :
------------------------
"There are dozens of dates in Europe for the Aurignacian nothing older
that 36,000 (years). This is the only case with a date of 40,000. It
seems unlikely that people bearing the same culture were at
Geiszenkloesterle 4,000 years ahead of the rest of Europe" Francesco
d'Errico, University of Bordeaux. Stratigraphically you come up with
the same dates as the rest of Europe.
-------------------------

Ah, Bordeaux - La Grande Nation (ptui).
d'Errico seems to be in controverse with the link you posted which also
claims 40 kya. for Schwäbische Alp and the other sites...

Jack :
--------------------------
Conard started out using Accelrated Mass Spectronomy and still swears
by it. "Yet many colleagues feel Conard's faith in radio carbon dating
is too strong".
--------------------------

And the lurkers support him by email ?

Jack :
------------------------
A sample paper from d'Errico

 Journal of World Prehistory
Publisher Springer Netherlands

Issue Volume 13, Number 1 / March, 1999

The Chronology and Taphonomy of the Earliest Aurignacian and Its
Implications for the Understanding of Neandertal Extinction
------------------------------------

Please note the term "extinction" and the date of his paper.

If we stop here and sum up :
d'Errico has a dog in this fight.
The newer consensus seems to be against him.
We see an on-going struggle here.

<snip>
Jack :
------------------------
Abstract  The view that the Châtelperronian is the acculturation of
late Neandertals brought about by contact with nearby moderns assumes
an age of ca. 40,000 years ago for the earliest Aurignacian. However,
the cultural meaning of the dated samples is dubious, either because
they were collected from palimpsests containing other archaeological
components or because the definition of the associated artifact suites
as Aurignacian is not warranted.
<snip>
-------------------------

That is a rather dubious statement.
Excavations at Geißenklösterle have been going on for a long time.
All wrong ?
I doubt it.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Jack Linthicum - 27 Aug 2007 23:28 GMT
> On Aug 27, 3:50 pm, "Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner

Tend to agree but it is somewhat similar to the fight that the Monte
Verde site had to put up with from the Clovis people. I think the
shore migration people still have a long ways to go to convince the
inland passageway people that the two ideas are at the least equal.
The usual problem of new ideas meeting "not discovered here".
Michael Kuettner - 28 Aug 2007 00:15 GMT
> Tend to agree but it is somewhat similar to the fight that the Monte
> Verde site had to put up with from the Clovis people. I think the
> shore migration people still have a long ways to go to convince the
> inland passageway people that the two ideas are at the least equal.
> The usual problem of new ideas meeting "not discovered here".

Yep.
I'd just like to know whether d'Errico has in the body of the article
something more convincing about his claim :
"
Conard started out using Accelrated Mass Spectronomy and still swears
by it. "Yet many colleagues feel Conard's faith in radio carbon dating
is too strong".
"
Especially in the light of the other dating methods (like stratigraphy) were
also
being used ...

It reminds me of the Troia (Korfmann) controversy, where even people like
Latacz (who just did excellent linguistic work) got under fire.
(The short story : Latacz delivered linguistic evidence to some of Korfmanns
claims; but as this is a "Take no prisoners" quarrel ...)

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Melodious Thunk - 28 Aug 2007 02:37 GMT
> > Tend to agree but it is somewhat similar to the fight that the Monte
> > Verde site had to put up with from the Clovis people. I think the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Michael Kuettner

Thanks for such a fascinating thread, and is there a site with
specific information on the flute? I'm a "prehistorian" but also a
flautist, and can't help but notice the two prominent finger holes in
the instrument. Is there another on the underside, as we might expect
later, & what are the dimensions, etc. It should be relatively easy to
infer, if not actually play, the thing, to understand its musical
range, timber, voice, etc.

The holes alone, if its truly a musically-oriented flute, imply a
great deal of sophistication. Maybe it goes beyond the archaeological
evidence, but it's intriguing to consider what the tonal formalities
might've been, 40k years back. Wonder what you had to do to get a
union card...
Uwe Müller - 28 Aug 2007 10:18 GMT
> > > Tend to agree but it is somewhat similar to the fight that the Monte
> > > Verde site had to put up with from the Clovis people. I think the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> might've been, 40k years back. Wonder what you had to do to get a
> union card...

Münzel, S. C., Seeberger, F. & W. Hein, 2002. The Geissenklösterle-Flute -
Discovery, Experiments, Reconstruction. In: Hickmann, E.; Kilmer, A. D. &
Eichmann, R. (Hrsg.). Studien zur Musikarchäologie III; Archäologie früher
Klangerzeugung und Tonordnung; Musikarchäologie in der Ägäis und Anatolien.
Orient-Archäologie Bd. 10. Verlag Marie Leidorf GmbH, Rahden/Westfalen,
107-118.

another flute from the same site
Conard, N.J.; Malina, M.; Münzel, S.C. & F. Seeberger, 2004. Eine
Mammutelfenbeinflöte aus dem Aurignacien des Geißenklösterle. Neue Belege
für eine musikalische Tradition im frühen Jungpaläolithikum auf der
Schwäbischen Alb. Archaeologisches Korrespondenzblatt 34: 447-462.

and a more general outlook on bone working
Münzel, S. C., 2005. Mammoth remains in the Upper and Middle Paleolithic
layers of Geißenklösterle Cave (Ach Valley, Swabian Jura, Southwestern
Germany). Hunting season, acquisition of raw material and tool production at
Geißenklösterle Cave. In: Vialou, D.; Renault-Miskovsky, J. & M.
Patou-Mathis (Hrsg.), Comportements des hommes du Paléolithique moyen et
supérrieur en Europe: territoires et milieux, Eraul 111: 39-49 (Liège 2005).

The caves in question were seasonal hunting camps, used in winter and
spring, probably December till May.
http://www.urgeschichte.uni-tuebingen.de/index.php?id=274&L=1%22 (in German)

Maybe music was invented to ease tensions and help pass the time.

have fun

Uwe Mueller
Jack Linthicum - 28 Aug 2007 11:42 GMT
On Aug 28, 5:18 am, "Uwe M?ller" <uwemuel...@go4more.de> wrote:

> > > > Tend to agree but it is somewhat similar to the fight that the Monte
> > > > Verde site had to put up with from the Clovis people. I think the
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Uwe Mueller

Cowboys around the campfire
Uwe Müller - 28 Aug 2007 06:58 GMT
> > Tend to agree but it is somewhat similar to the fight that the Monte
> > Verde site had to put up with from the Clovis people. I think the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> (The short story : Latacz delivered linguistic evidence to some of Korfmanns
> claims; but as this is a "Take no prisoners" quarrel ...)

The important point seems to be what to define as early Aurignacien resp.
late Chatelperronien. While one side sees the first occurrence of
aurignacien related tools as the starting point, the other side insists on a
dated layer without 'older' tools, when aurignacien technology had
supplanted Chateperronien tools completely.

For someone unacustomed to the intrinsic niceties of palaeolithic tool
typology, the former view could be treated as the starting point, the later
as the ending of the succession of technologies, defined as the starting
point of the younger palaeolithic.

Given the quality of preservation of layers in the Swabian Alps caves, and
the scope and duration of excavations, analyses and publication of results
there, it is no wonder, that there are no sites, giving comparable early
dates for the first introduction of the new technologies elsewhere.

We will simply have to wait and see, wether this pattern can be identified
and dated at other sites too. But making an argument out of the absence of
evidence seems to be a bit premature for my taste.

have fun

Uwe Mueller
 
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