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History Forum / General / British History / November 2005Re: The Falklands/Malvinas War
I applauded the British successes in the Falklands War of 1982 and indeed cheered them on. However, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, certainly in a position to know, was perfectly correct when she said: "without the Harrier jets and their immense manoeuvrability, equipped as they were with the latest version of the Sidewinder missile, supplied to us by US Defence Minister Caspar Weinberger, we could never have got back the Falklands." The intelligence we Americans provided to the Brits was also critical to their victory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proof Of The Pudding: "It is worth noting that both Weinberger and Reagan would go on to receive honorary knighthoods, the honour of Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, from Queen Elizabeth II." Live With It... Pogues On The Run... 'Nuff Said. Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor > The intelligence we Americans provided to the Brits was also critical to > their victory. Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the existing reciprocal agreements?  SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> The intelligence we Americans provided to the Brits was also critical to >> their victory. > > Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the > existing reciprocal agreements? We have this ancient precedent, unilateral as it were, the Monroe Doctrine, presumably having to be rationalized first before invoking all those later shady deals multilateral, bilateral or ambisexual. After all, should we revoke the Whaling Accords, we might be able to prevail upon the Argies to lease us a base for a reconstitutued whaling fleet in return for a few more GEARINGs. TMO :> The intelligence we Americans provided to the Brits was also critical to :> their victory. : :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the :existing reciprocal agreements? Of course we had a choice! As we weren't a co-belligerent, we could easily have simply not provided access to our satellites. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn > :> The intelligence we Americans provided to the Brits was also critical > to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Of course we had a choice! As we weren't a co-belligerent, we could > easily have simply not provided access to our satellites. How very noble of _you_. I'm sure you have no idea of what satellitie info agreements are in place.. Plus there's always ESA if anything ever got rough. But nice to think _you_ did the brits a favor. Wonder if the Brits might have had some Arab intell that helps. Especially since they craved up that whole region to begin with.. All those countries were broaders drawn up by the British.. And were do those Arabs in power get educated... You scratch my back and we'll scratch yours.. :> :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the :> :existing reciprocal agreements? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : :I'm sure you have no idea of what satellitie info agreements are in place.. Yeah, right. <snicker> :Plus there's always ESA if anything ever got rough. Yes, and they were all LOTS of help during the Falklands, weren't they? :But nice to think _you_ did the brits a favor. Yeah, it is. It'd be even nicer if so many folks weren't in denial about it. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn >:> :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the >:> :existing reciprocal agreements? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Yeah, it is. It'd be even nicer if so many folks weren't in denial >about it. I remember reading that the satellite info wasn't of much use because in those days satellites didn't orbit that far south. Although photos were taken they were at such an oblique angle that little was seen. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > >:> :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the > >:> :existing reciprocal agreements? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > those days satellites didn't orbit that far south. Although photos were > taken they were at such an oblique angle that little was seen. Photographic imagery isn't the only product of intelligence satellites. I say again... The intelligence we Americans provided to the Brits during the Falklands War in 1982 was also critical to their victory. National Technical Means were only one of many sources of that vital intelligence provided by Americans to the Brits. The British, in common with many Europeans, have simply refused adequately to fund their own Armed Forces and Intelligence Community -- so, in a crisis, they come asking for a bailout from the United States. In essence, we American taxpayers pay the freight for their expensive Social Welfare Programs while they cut their Armed Forces to the bone. DSH > Photographic imagery isn't the only product of intelligence satellites. > I say again... > > The intelligence we Americans provided > to the Brits during the Falklands War > in 1982 was also critical to their victory. It wasn't you senile old sod. >I say again... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >In essence, we American taxpayers pay the freight for their expensive Social >Welfare Programs while they cut their Armed Forces to the bone. It was that damned socialist Thatcher that made the cuts. -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >>I say again... >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >It was that damned socialist Thatcher that made the cuts. Thatcher, socialist? Ray (Your kidding) -- *************************************************************************** Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach a person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. - Anon *************************************************************************** Website: http://www.eirefirst.com Email: rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie *************************************************************************** >>>I say again... >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Ray >(Your kidding) I am, but it winds him up. -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >>>>I say again... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I am, but it winds him up. Oh... erm... <whistles> nevermind then... Walks off, sorry he opened his gob! :-) Ray (not that I know either of ye or why ye'd be winding each other up, but who am I to stand in the way of a good windup!) -- *************************************************************************** Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach a person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. - Anon *************************************************************************** Website: http://www.eirefirst.com Email: rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie *************************************************************************** >>It was that damned socialist Thatcher that made the cuts. > >Thatcher, socialist? She had a great sense of Nationalism too. And she only read Kipling because she liked the logo on the book covers. > >>It was that damned socialist Thatcher that made the cuts. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And she only read Kipling because she liked the logo on the book covers. Those early editions are a bitch to sell these days... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> And she only read Kipling because she liked the logo on the book covers. >> >Those early editions are a bitch to sell these days... I saw one in a S/H bookshop a few weeks ago which had been cut out! I was wondering if it was the shop, or mid-century vandalism. > >>It was that damned socialist Thatcher that made the cuts. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And she only read Kipling because she liked the logo on the book covers. Perhaps she liked to kipple? "Sip one's preferred alcoholic beverage through a hollow kipper?" >I say again... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >> Photographic imagery isn't the only product of intelligence satellites. True. VHF comms. For one. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > I say again... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In essence, we American taxpayers pay the freight for their expensive Social > Welfare Programs while they cut their Armed Forces to the bone. Name one piece of US intelligence, specifically, without which we would not have retaken the Falklands. Otherwise, leave this topic to those who know what they're talking about. Surreyman > > >:> :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the > > >:> :existing reciprocal agreements? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > those days satellites didn't orbit that far south. Although photos were > > taken they were at such an oblique angle that little was seen. > Photographic imagery isn't the only product of intelligence satellites. yes they did I've seen one. if it wasn't a satelite it was a UFO >>:> :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the >>:> :existing reciprocal agreements? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >those days satellites didn't orbit that far south. Although photos were >taken they were at such an oblique angle that little was seen. A satellite has to go as far south as it does north. Moscow is about as far north as the Falklands are south. I'd read a different book. Peter Skelton [....] > A satellite has to go as far south as it does north. Moscow is > about as far north as the Falklands are south. I'd read a > different book. > > Peter Skelton Furthermore, reconnaisance satellites launched from Vandenburg AFB on the Pacific Missile Test Range are typically launched into circumpolar orbits, where they have full coverage of the Earth's surface rotating beneath the satellite's orbit. There were, in fact, at least two KH reconnaissance satellites which were available to make passes over the Falklands, and the SIGINT satellites as well. However, the bad weather over the Falklands and limited number of satellite passes made their usefullness for tactical reconnaissance very minimal. By the time a new satellite could be launched and tasked for continuous tactical coverage of the Falklands War, it was long over. Interestingly, it is reported that the Norwegian intelligence services intercepted a satellite photograph of the Falklands area from the data stream of a Soviet spy satellite, which the Norwegians gave to the British to use in locating the ARA BELGRANO at the time HMS CONQUEROR sunk her. >[....] >> A satellite has to go as far south as it does north. Moscow is [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >British to use in locating the ARA BELGRANO at the time HMS CONQUEROR >sunk her. Than you. I didn't know that. Mike >>[....] >>> A satellite has to go as far south as it does north. Moscow is [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Mike Like you Mike - I didn't know that: - however; a Soviet era 'spy satellite' (circumpolar?) in LOE would've orbited about every eighty minutes(?) assume it transited the TEZ exactly on one orbit ... the TEZ would've passed 360/24*80/60*Cos Lat NMs eastwards (?) away from the nadir of the 'spy satellite' on next pass. Unless those dastardly GRU satellites were able to nutate(?) the orbits, that's a lot of NMs :) Or a lot of thrust. :) A molniya-type orbit is worse. Assuming that the Soviets did acquire ARA Belgrano's Lat/Long; from a 'photograph' and from an orbit later? were able to determine Heading, Speed ... and the Norwegians were able isolate such a photograph from the data stream ... It's not inconceivable though - presumably the Norwegians might fall within the footprint of a download aimed at Soviet Northern Fleet intel sites.- about one-hundred degrees of orbit after the pass over the TEZ - call it twenty minutes late. Then KNN process it to the point it was transmitted to Northwood who then transmitted it to a submerged submarine in sufficient timeliness to assist the Fire Control Team and/or the Search team in localising ARA Belgrano and her two escorts .... :) How much 'oggin would the Belgrano Surface Action Group have traversed? I prefer to assume that the Sonars on HMS Conqueror were functioning as designed and with the 'latest' oceanographic math-models embarked [in non NES 100. kit form - allegedly] the Attack Team were able to detect, classify, isolate and reach a Fire Solution -just as they'd trained in the Attack-Team-Trainer. FWIW, I dimly recall something about the Surface Action Group being about to transit an oceanic ridge beyond which those ships would have been a more difficult target to resolve. Still, it's a nice story ... one which both Navies will appreciate and is probably the source of much carousing and mutual 'skol -ing' during sojourns on Periscope Island . SignatureBrian > >>[....] > >>> A satellite has to go as far south as it does north. Moscow is [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > and is probably the source of much carousing and mutual > 'skol -ing' during sojourns on Periscope Island . The Conqueror was shadowing the group of ships all day at distance. Occasionally they would loose them and then find them. I doubt any satellite picture found the groups and then the sub went to that co-ordinate. I'm sure they knew the vicinity the ships were in and most of the time had a lock on them. The were clearly zig-zagging, which is standard procedure for any navy. The South American continental plate falls away to the east of the Falklands and then very deep ocean. One of the futile claims on the island by the Argentines is that the Islands are on the South American plate. That is scraping the barrel (or ocean) >>>[....] >>> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > and is probably the source of much carousing and mutual > 'skol -ing' during sojourns on Periscope Island . It's likely a single Soviet satellite photograph specifically confirmed the suspicion that the ARA BELGRANO was operating in the vicinity of the Falklands after a sortie from its port. ARA BELGRANO's confirmed presence in the area of the Falklands then may have permitted other reconnaisance assets and the HMS CONQUEROR to focus their efforts to a more prompt interception of the ARA BELGRANO and its task force. >>>>[....] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > assets and the HMS CONQUEROR to focus their efforts to a more prompt > interception of the ARA BELGRANO and its task force. I didn't say the story was absolutely without foundation ... but Occam's Razor might indicate that an 'angler' with a carbon-fibre rod and a suspiciously heavy fishing-bag might just have noticed the sortie of ARA Belgrano. -- Brian >>>>>[....] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > Brian There is a huge difference between knowing the TF sortied from its port, knowing it is likely enroute to engage in operations in the area of the Falklands in concert with the VEINTICINCO DE MAYO'S TF79, and knowing at any given hour of the day exactly where the ARA BELGRANO and its escorts are operating. The ARA BELGRANO sortied FROM Ushuaia with the Exocet armed destroyers, HIPPOLITO BOUCHARD and PIEDRABUENA on Monday, 26 April 1982. This task force (TF) was not directed to take station in the Falklands aea of operations until orders were received to proceed on patrol to the area south of Burdwood Bank in the South Falklands area of operations, where it arrived on Thursday, 29 April. It was on the following day, Friday, 30 April, that HMS CONQUEROR first sighted ARA BELGRANO and its task force keeping just outside of the TEZ (Total Exclusion Zone)and within the killbox southwest of the East Falkland islands. ARA BELGRANO received orders on Saturday, 1 May 1982, to attack the British Fleet in a coordinated pincers attack with the VEINTICINCO DE MAYO'S TF79 in the northern Falklands area of operations. Having intercepted the Argentine orders to attack the British Fleet, HMS CONQUEROR was ordered to attack ARA BELGRANO before it could escape HMS CONQUEROR by changing course to cross the Burdwood Bank, where the submarine could not follow due to the shallow depths. It appears there was a period of time between BELGRANO's sortie on Monday, 26 April and the arrival and sighting by the HMS CONQUEROR at Burdwood Bank on Thursday, 29 April, when satellite photographs would have been strategically and tactically useful in monitoring the movements of the ARA BELGRANO, HIPPOLITO BOUCHARD, and PIEDRABUENA. >>>:> :Did the US have any choice in that or was it all dealt with under the >>>:> :existing reciprocal agreements? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >about as far north as the Falklands are south. I'd read a >different book. Good point. I'll change my newspaper. Mike M.J.Powell Recte: [Re: Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher -- DSH] > This woman was quite prepared to destroy whole industries and the lives of > thousands of people on a minor point of economic theory, don't > underestimate either her ruthlessness or ability to do damage to people in > her lust for power. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilarious! There is the genuine, anserine, cunniculan-pygan voice of the British Leftover Left ---- "Old Labour" to the rotting core. They believe in a dog's breakfast of Political-Social-Economic Mishmash, composed of generous servings of Marxism, British Fabian Socialism, a soupcon of Anarchism and a full surfeit of Drunken Pub Ranting. Deeeeelightful! Most Entertaining. The Iron Lady was never a prisoner of some defunct economic theory -- but these British Socialists were then -- and still are. Margaret Thatcher saved the British from doing some really stupid things -- things the Germans, for example, were not so wise to avoid. 'Nuff Said. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor “Democracies, which are fundamentally peaceful, have to receive external stimuli to force them to rearm." "They do not have a long-range point of view. Rather they react to each separate circumstance after it occurs. But when preparation for war, in this day of mechanization, takes such an extensive period, they are always behind." "If they are moved to action by an event, say in 1935, it will be 1937 or 1938 before their program is complete. By that time, they may have been shocked again by some new development, but it will take several more years before they can meet the new threat.” John F. Kennedy, _Why England Slept_ [1940], p. 106 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bingo! The Slack-Arsed, Short-Sighted Brits ALSO SLEPT before the Falklands/Malvinas War. Under both Labour and Conservative Governments, the British People wanted to cut the Defence Budget in order to fund all those expensive and often wasteful Social Welfare programs the Brits are so fond of. When the Crunch came in the Falklands, they were Unprepared -- just as the Slack-Arsed, Short-Sighted American People were before Pearl Harbor and 9/11. [Loss of HMS Sheffield.] Penny Wise and Pound Foolish -- blame the British Electorate for that. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor > The Exocet warhead didn't fire but the rocket motor kept running after the > impact. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The original spec called for PTFE cladding but this was deleted as a cost > saving measure... “The country as a whole is basically responsible, in that the people were unwilling to take adequate measures to defend [Pearl Harbor] until it was too late to repair the consequences of their failure to do so.” Harry S. Truman -- 33rd President of the United States -- August 29, 1945 [Reported in The New York Times -- 30 August 1945] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bingo! Just as Britain Slept before World War II and the Falklands/Malvinas War. And America Slept before 9/11.... D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor “Churchill, in a speech on March 4 [1937], said he was glad to hear the amount of the sum that had been allocated." "He warned, however, that it would be impossible to get very much of it circulated in the first year. This is a fact that is often overlooked." "It is considered that if a huge sum of money is authorized, the job is done. But it takes time for contracts to be submitted and work to be completed. If a sum of money is voted in one year, it may take a year before it is completely allocated, and three years before the guns or ships or planes are ready, and meanwhile a dangerous and false sense of complacency may be produced.” John F. Kennedy, _Why England Slept_, pp. 153-154 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- These days the cycle is far longer, of course, and may be 10 to 12 years for major weapons systems, under peacetime rules. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor Bingo! These are Irrefutable Historical Facts. Deus Vult. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor >>>It is you who are the screwball and nutcase. Britain used up the last of >>>its gold, other cash reserves, and other liquid assets within the first [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>Government's help in permitting the sale and transportation of war >>>material from the United States to Britain. > Britain's extreme financial woes in the First World War are detailed in > part in the older editions of the Encyclopedia Americana. Without the > massive purchase of British war bonds by private U.S. citizens, the > British war effort was doomed well before or by 1916. Listen Up Pogues, America-Haters, Scruffy British Ragamuffins & Drunks! Prime Minister Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill had no doubts at all that the entry of the United States into World War II pulled the burning British bacon out of the fire [euphemism for cojones] and saved British arses from disaster. How quickly pogues such as "Surreyman" [Alan Spencer] forget these Eternal Truths. Virginia, it just doesn't get any better than this. Enjoy! Deus Vult. DSH ---------------------------------------- "While he was at a Mansion House luncheon Winston Churchill heard a rumour that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor. He immediately telephoned President Franklin D. Roosevelt. " ----------------------------- "In two or three minutes Mr. Roosevelt came through. "Mr. President, what's this about Japan? "It's quite true," he replied. "They have attacked us at Pearl Harbor. We are all in the same boat now."" ----------------------------- "No American will think it wrong of me if I proclaim that to have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. I could not foretell the course of events. I do not pretend to have measured accurately the martial might of Japan, but now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all. . . . We should not be wiped out. Our history would not come to an end. ****** We might not even have to die as individuals. Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force. The British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the United States bound together with every scrap of their life and strength, were, according to my lights, twice or even thrice the force of their antagonists. No doubt it would take a long time. I expected terrible forfeits in the East; but all this would be merely a passing phase. United we could subdue everybody else in the world. Many disasters, immeasurable cost and tribulation lay ahead, but there was no more doubt about the end. Silly people, and there were many, not only in enemy countries, might discount the force of the United States. ****** Some said they were soft, others that they would never be united. They would fool around at a distance. They would never come to grips. They would never stand blood-letting. Their democracy and system of recurrent elections would paralyse their war effort. They would be just a vague blur on the horizon to friend or foe. ****** Now we should see the weakness of this numerous but remote, wealthy, and talkative people. But I had studied the American Civil War, fought out to the last desperate inch. American blood flowed in my veins [Churchill's mother was Jennie Jerome, an American ---- DSH]. I thought of a remark which Edward Grey* [N.B. British politician and Foreign Secretary in August 1914. ---- DSH] had made to me more than thirty years before ---- that the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful." Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill _The Grand Alliance_, pp. 539-540 * The man who said, "The lamps are going out all over Europe; we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime." ["Comment [3 August 1914], standing at the windows of his room in the Foreign Office, London, as the lamplighters were turning on the lights in St. James Park. War was declared at 11 P.M on 4 August 1914.]" (Bartlett's) ---------------------------------------- Deus Vult. "I don't care a twopenny damn what becomes of the ashes of Napoleon Buonaparte." ---- Attributed to Arthur Wellesley, [1769-1852] Duke of Wellington Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor |
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