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History Forum / General / British History / November 2005Danelaw Dilemma
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning invited me to his daughter's wedding and I got drunk on the way and passed out on the road, what would happen to me for missing the wedding? David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >David H >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You would probably wake up with a hangover, missing your braids, half your beard and an eyebrow.  SignaturePosting from alt.books.tom-clancy alt.history.british soc.history.war.misc soc.history.medieval us.military.army alt.fan.heinlein -- have.I.missed.one.out Bryn " There is not a British Naval vessel within a 1000 miles of us! " Capt Hans Wilhelm Langsdorff Grav Spee, Dec 1939. To email remove GREMILNS >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >David H >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Down the road from me is a small village called Dane End, which marks the boundary of Danelaw. Our town must thus have been right on the border and only just Viking. I bet that some rum old goings on happened in those days. There's an old road where a ghostly black dog is meant to guard Viking treasure. That road now runs through council housing estates. Nothing has been ever found, treasure or dog. -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > treasure. That road now runs through council housing estates. Nothing > has been ever found, treasure or dog. Near me is a place called Burnt Oak, situated on Watling Street - the old 'border', now known as the A5. Apparently burned trees were used as marker posts back then, and some say it dates from then. I have my doubts, and like the place above it is now a sprawling estate with a grim reputation, though most of the dogs have brown patches - dobermans, pit-bulls and rottweilers. The vikings abandoned it long ago, even they would get mugged or worse by binge drinking harlots and chavs. I live in Danelaw, and the ancient custom of screwing every last penny out of the locals is maintained to this day by the local council, who like to maintain old traditions to fund enormous banquets, the mayor's limo and first class trips to slap up feeds in our various 'twin-towns' by various officials. Pesonally, I wish the Vikings would come back, they weren't nearly as greedy or ruthless.... Cheers Martin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You mean Watling Road was the border ? I know that Watling Road was central to Roman Rule. There was a sort of mythical era of peace which came before King Aelfred. A time when it was safe to walk from the western shore to the North Sea without fear of highwaymen. In that time, Christ rule in every heart and all the AngloSaxons went to mass. Then the pagan Danes arrived, both as peaceful farmers and as armed invaders. I wish i knew the exact period in which our language was created out of the Old Norse and the A-S. David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > You mean Watling Road was the border ? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of the Old Norse and the A-S. > David H Good factual book on it, called the Adventure of English by Melvin Bragg. Shows the origins of the words in our language today and how they came about e.g. Skin (Norse), hide (french). Multitudes of competing factors, but in the end, English became like the characters in Star Trek, the Borg. "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated". SignatureZ-REX >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> You mean Watling Road was the border ? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> of the Old Norse and the A-S. >> David H This topic has come and gone and I apologize for coming so late to it. The period described is fiction. There was never a time in Anglo-Saxon history that one can claim that it was safe to walk the length and breadth of the island in safety and unmolested, when all Englishman were good, observant Christians, and that the Danes ruined it all. Tis all poppycock. Our language developed, wasn't created. It is at base English, a member of the West Germanic family. Norse later influenced the language, but English was not created out of Norse. At the same time that Norse influenced English so did Old French. Latin was also an important contributor. These languages influenced English though more in terms of lexicography and morphology than anything else: the grammar of English is essentially the same now as it was a thousand years ago...yes there are some differences. Languages do change, and not all change is in response to external forces. There is a whole field of History of the English Language that might be of interest for you to read, and there are popular treatments as well as the more scholarly. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > You mean Watling Road was the border ? > I know that Watling Road was central to Roman > Rule. Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By sheer coincidence, I staggered along a good portion of it on Friday night, weaving between Danelaw and Saxon England several times... ended up in Saxon England for a while, but I'll not go into details, ahem. > There was a sort of mythical era of peace which > came before King Aelfred. A time when it was safe [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > exact period in which our language was created out > of the Old Norse and the A-S. The language of 1066 would be all but incomptehensible to us English of today, apart from odd words. In fact, I'd probably have found it easier to talk to William le batard than King Harold. The language has been developing throughout history really, and still is. I suspect that any of us would have quite serious difficulties in 'chatting' with anyone before 1400 or so, and find it hard to make ourselves understood well after that. If you read the original Chaucer, you'll see what I mean. Let's face it, in parts of the country I still have trouble being understood today.... maybe it's just me? Cheers Martin > Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that > starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By sheer > coincidence, I staggered along a good portion of it on Friday night, weaving > between Danelaw and Saxon England several times... ended up in Saxon England for > a while, but I'll not go into details, ahem. Bloody binge drinkers, making the country unsafe for the rest of us! Cheers, Alex > > Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that > > starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By sheer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bloody binge drinkers, making the country unsafe for the rest of us! It's just a hobby.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Swain hit the nail squarely when he said the grammar "is the same now as it was 1000 years ago." I say the grammar was set 1200 years ago. Someone said they would understand the Duke of Normandie better than King Harold. I say the French gave us a tremendous vocabulary but nothing of the grammar. The grammar was developed by Norse children playing with AngloSaxon children in Danelaw. Deal with it. What is the word on this from Gothenburg ? Where is that Viking with the 2 horns when we need her ? David H (for you, Martin, a mirthful anecdote about my first walk ashore in London, in 1966, before Beatlemania. But later, old bean!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Swain hit the nail squarely when he said the grammar [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is the word on this from Gothenburg ? Where is that Viking > with the 2 horns when we need her ? Well, David, not really. A) the English grammar of which I spoke being the same is Old English grammar which predates the influx of Norse and b) Norse had very little impact on English grammar, but a huge influence on common grammatical forms (hi becomes they for example) c) Norse syntax was very similar to Old English syntax anyway, the main grammatical differences are morphological ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Larry, You say "Old English" and I say "Engelsk." Can you break your thesis down into dialects? I would think that in Aelfred the Great's kingdom they were speaking (900 C.E.) A-S (the clerics), Middlesex , and Brethonic (?) in Wales. In Danelaw they would be speaking ON, A-S, Angelsk, and Gaelic (Scotland). Exactly what is OE in this context ? The one book I read on this subject said that Angelsk came about from ON chat mixed with A-S patter. Cheers, David H > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Larry, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Cheers, David H Old English is the standard description for the langauge between c. 600-1100. There are dialects within Old English of course, but Old English is not ON. Not sure what you mean in your last sentence: is Angelsk Middle English? (English as spoken and read roughly 1100-1500)? Old English? A dialect? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Swain hit the nail squarely when he said the grammar [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > very similar to Old English syntax anyway, the main grammatical > differences are morphological So Larry, you don't think word order (Anglo-Norse) to give meaning is an important change from word ending (OE)? For example the OE, "the man rode the horse" could be understood by old Haggar as "the horse rode the man" Of the 100 most commonly used words today, most are OE in origin, 3 are Norse in origin, (19/ they, 49/ their, 58/ them), the only French derived word (number) is at number 76 Jamie >> Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that >> starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By sheer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Bloody binge drinkers, making the country unsafe for the rest of us! Rumbling around in ox-wagons, scaring decent folk.. SignatureBryn Posting from alt.books.tom-clancy alt.history.british soc.history.war.misc soc.history.medieval us.military.army alt.fan.heinlein have.I.missed.one.out " There is not a British Naval vessel within a 1000 miles of us! " Capt Hans Wilhelm Langsdorff Grav Spee, Dec 1939. To email remove GREMILNS > >> Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that > >> starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By sheer [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Rumbling around in ox-wagons, scaring decent folk.. Luxury! The N16 night bus is far more medieval.... >> >> Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that >> >> starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Luxury! The N16 night bus is far more medieval.... Oh! You are not kidding... and the sideways movement... SignatureBryn Posting from alt.books.tom-clancy alt.history.british soc.history.war.misc soc.history.medieval us.military.army alt.fan.heinlein have.I.missed.one.out Found it! sci.military.naval " There is not a British Naval vessel within a 1000 miles of us! " Capt Hans Wilhelm Langsdorff Grav Spee, Dec 1939. To email remove GREMILNS > >> >> Watling Street.... I believe so, it was a nice, long, straight marker that > >> >> starts at Hyde Park Corner, and splits the country neatly in twain (By [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Oh! You are not kidding... and the sideways movement... Ah... I always thought that was me? Are you saying it is the bus? holiman@westUSgulf wrote: 1132490780.116128.41720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > You mean Watling Road was the border ? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > David H > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Roman roads http://tinyurl.com/9drd7 Danelaw http://tinyurl.com/cazsy SignatureP.A. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > David H > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It all depends on how your "cning" felt about it: if he was offended or if he thought your early celebrations in the spirit of the day. Beware that "blonde eagle" thingy too.... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > David H > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Harthacnut got drunk at a wedding and didn't wake up. The moral of this story was "never let the Godwins stand a round" Jamie >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> If I were an AS in the Danelaw and my Cning [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Harthacnut got drunk at a wedding and didn't wake up. >The moral of this story was "never let the Godwins stand a round" With them, I would think that there was no such thing as a free drink. -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Martin, When you say the Watling Street bus swayed from side to side in a turn or straightaway... In the 1970's, motor vehicles had "sway bars" under their frames. Looking up from your 4-wheel "crawler" under the vehicle, the sway bars cross each other like a big letter X. I betcha that bus had a loose sway bar ! The swaying of the seating area was not altogether due to the anodyne of your libations... Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Martin, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > seating area was not altogether due to the anodyne > of your libations... I fear the bus was in perfect condition, ahem! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Then the fault lies either in the grape or the hop, anon. David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Then the fault lies either in the grape or >the hop, anon. >David H >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That's for rich people, the best we get comes in Mason jars, calibrated in Braille on the outside... SignatureBryn "Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh "but make sure you know which side to come down on!" To email remove GREMILNS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Are you a Scot or a Scottish American ? I think the Mason jar is a purely American artifact. The lid is in two pieces and it drives me crazy because I am always losing one piece or the other. I cannot imagine Martin in the back of a bus with a jar of spirits. Don't the English have hip flasks for their "medicinals" ? David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Are you a Scot or a Scottish American ? I think the Mason [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with a jar of spirits. Don't the English have hip flasks for > their "medicinals" ? Amyl nitrite, that's a spirit isn't it? Sort of... comes in little bottles though, not flasks. £5, excellent value, over the bar and over the.... yes well, never mind. No, lost my hip flask a while ago, had to give it to my Godson, who is making hideously good use of it... We don't catty jars, we drink them in pubs - usually 'a jar' is 'a pint'... >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Are you a Scot or a Scottish American ? Scot-ish, London born of Scottish descent. We do get Mason jars and very useful they are. Some companies distribute their "Italian" sauces in them. whether these are as good as the American preserve jars I am not sure. We have Kilner jars with the two piece lids. Preserving fruit is the province of only the very rich in the UK. >I think the Mason >jar is a purely American artifact. The lid is in two pieces >and it drives me crazy because I am always losing one piece >or the other. I cannot imagine Martin in the back of a bus >with a jar of spirits. Hard to think he could keep a grip on one. >Don't the English have hip flasks for >their "medicinals" ? We have silver hip flasks but the lids are tiny and have an annoyingly small thread. Very hard to replace on the move. So our distributors supply spirits in bottles already flask shaped, perfect fit in the denim hip pocket.. SignatureBryn "Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh "But be certain, you will get nasty lines on your bum!" To email remove GREMILNS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This shows that Brits have ingenuity in peace as well as in war. Thanks for sharing your pedigree. I have some Scot blood as well, but I don't make a big thing of it as certain American cousins have done. One of them met the Duke of Argyle or perhaps his son-in-law. (I have heard that the Duke passed on recently.) My Coulter cousin went to a tea or something in their castle, and the Duke or his surrogate was in the gift shop at the time. This was perhaps 3-4 years ago. David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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