 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
History Forum / General / British History / December 2005New pistols ordered by US Army
From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for 1000 of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did tell y'all the .45 ACP was back some months ago. The P228 is one of the most accurate out-of-the-box pistols on the market and withstood exhaustive army tests for accuracy, reliability, rapidity and ease of take-down, and interchangeability of parts. The pistol has been used by military and police units for some time. I'm not certain but the new M11 may have the new stainless slide being introduced in the P228. Blood-thirsty, reactionary, right-wing, high-noon type Americans can still make it to your local purveyors of violence and mayhem in time to get one for Christmas before the news gets out in the usual black-shirt periodicals we all know and love. :^) -the Troll > From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for > 1000 of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > by military and police units for some time. I'm not certain but the > new M11 may have the new stainless slide being introduced in the P228. What's the standard army test for ease of takedown?  SignatureJohn Dean Oxford "John Dean" wrote in message >> From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for >> 1000 of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What's the standard army test for ease of takedown? I can't tell you if there even is an army standard. It wasn't likely to apply in this case since this was an off-shelf purchase and not built against a specification. All I know is that in comparative tests fewer parts for initial take-down translates into plus points for the final score. The Sig-Sauer release said their reps were obliged to take-down the test pistols and re-assemble them, at times mixing parts to assure interchangeability. Where weapons take-down is used as a part of army competitions, the tests are timed, and except for advanced weapons courses and schools for ordinance people, they only go to the first level of disassembly, referred to in military jargon as 'field stripping'. In the case of an automatic pistol this would not include taking down the bolt, safety, or trigger mechanisms. -the Troll > From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for 1000 > of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did tell y'all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > units for some time. I'm not certain but the new M11 may have the new > stainless slide being introduced in the P228. Interesting. However as the US Special Foirces now number over 50,000 men it's not a significant number. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for >> 1000 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > However as the US Special Foirces now number over 50,000 men it's not a > significant number. A thousand pistols is significant in any army. Pistols are not issued to everyone. What is important is: 1) The re-introduction of a, by now, non-standard and very old cartridge based on feedback from a combat zone. It wouldn't be too different from re-introducing the old .455, and reinforces the persistent rumor that old 1911s from arsenals have recently been re-issued. 2) The gun itself isn't one of the whiz-bang, super-modern, semi-metallics like the Glock, but a much more traditional piece of work from a maker not known for being cheap. Sig produced, among others, the much coveted Swiss military issue P210 pistol which costs 2000 US a copy here when you can find them. 3) Also important are the philosophical implications of the continued importance of sidearms in combat to the troops using them and the victory of soldier's needs over the howling objections of quartermaster and bean counter types. 4) Most important is it shows how pro-active the army has become with regard to equipment. It used to take eons to make a purchase of this sort, with competitive tests, bidding, and internal bickering slowing the process to a snail's pace. -the Troll > 2) The gun itself isn't one of the whiz-bang, super-modern, semi-metallics > like the Glock, but a much more traditional piece of work from a maker not > known for being cheap. Sig produced, among others, the much coveted Swiss > military issue P210 pistol which costs 2000 US a copy here when you can find > them. Sig pistols are noted for one thing above all others, except possibly price.. They are very reliable. They go bang when you pull the trigger, no matter what you feed them with. British Special Forces have used the Sig 210 and 220 for decades because they 'go bang when you pull the trigger'. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> 2) The gun itself isn't one of the whiz-bang, super-modern, >> semi-metallics [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > British Special Forces have used the Sig 210 and 220 for decades because > they 'go bang when you pull the trigger'. They are also known for out-of-the-box accuracy which doesn't hurt. -the Troll > From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for 1000 > of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did tell y'all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > for Christmas before the news gets out in the usual black-shirt > periodicals we all know and love. :^) -the Troll But why to a.h.b? Why not to alt.guns etc.? SignatureThur > > From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for 1000 > > of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did tell y'all [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > But why to a.h.b? > Why not to alt.guns etc.? Because he's hoping for intelligent comment from erudite folks with an interest in British history? SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) "Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message > "Thur" wrote in message >> But why to a.h.b? >> Why not to alt.guns etc.? > > Because he's hoping for intelligent comment from erudite folks with an > interest in British history? Chuckle, that's exactly it. I think there are some interesting implications of the news release which are important for a wider understanding of changes in modern military thinking. We've all seen how government purchasing agents failed to adopt far better equipment in the past because it was non-standard or too expensive. The Ferguson Rifle comes to mind amongst others (subject now happily OT). -the Troll > "Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > or too expensive. The Ferguson Rifle comes to mind amongst others (subject > now happily OT). -the Troll What I find interesting is the lack of a commercial announcement on the SIGARMS site. There is an announcement of the sale of 5,000 9mm SP2022s in January. DHS and the USCG also use SIG-Sauers. (The CF issue SIG-Sauers to military police, naval boarding parties and JTF 2. We staff numpties have to carry the Inglis Browning; when last I had one on issue (1999) it was in pretty good nick for a nearly 60-year-old pistol.) SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) "Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Chuckle, that's exactly it. I think there are some interesting > implications [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > one on issue (1999) it was in pretty good nick for a nearly > 60-year-old pistol.) Yup, I rushed to print with the news so that this very classy NG would be the first to know, even it seems before SIGARMS updated their site. If your JTF folks use it I am doubly impressed by both the pistol and the wisdom of our army in ordering it. I've never even seen one that I can remember. Our Special Warfare types have wide access to weapons but I've never heard of the Sig in use by them, and the release was the first indication I have seen that it was even available in .45 ACP. Up to today I thought .40 was the biggest bore it was chambered in. Numpties? That's a new one on me. You wouldn't want to explain the derivation of the term would you? -the Troll > Yup, I rushed to print with the news so that this very classy NG would be > the first to know, even it seems before SIGARMS updated their site. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > indication I have seen that it was even available in .45 ACP. Up to today I > thought .40 was the biggest bore it was chambered in. Sorry if you got the impression that the CF use it in .45", they use 9mm exclusively. http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101sm-spec.htm > Numpties? That's a new one on me. You wouldn't want to explain the > derivation of the term would you? -the Troll It's Scots slang for someone who has never had a clue and who never will. It is used (derisively, as you might expect) in the Land Force for staff officers. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) "Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Yup, I rushed to print with the news so that this very classy NG > would be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 9mm exclusively. > http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101sm-spec.htm Nah, I knew better. I just got caught up in the stream of consciousness thing. >> Numpties? That's a new one on me. You wouldn't want to explain the >> derivation of the term would you? -the Troll > > It's Scots slang for someone who has never had a clue and who never > will. It is used (derisively, as you might expect) in the Land Force > for staff officers. Chuckle, just sounding out the word gives a visual impact since it illiterates so nicely with dumb, numb, Humpty Dumpty, and Humphrey. I keep reminding the kids who get sent on staff duty assignments that in war foraging is a strategy of rapidly diminishing returns. -the Troll > Numpties? That's a new one on me. You wouldn't want to explain the > derivation of the term would you? -the Troll Scots slang for 'someone who hasn't got a clue'. Often used in the military about officers from another unit. As in 'Staff numpty', 'Sigs numpty', 'that numpty from Division'. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Numpties? That's a new one on me. You wouldn't want to explain the >> derivation of the term would you? -the Troll [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > As in 'Staff numpty', 'Sigs numpty', 'that numpty from Division'. Do you have any idea where the word comes from? -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Do you have any idea where the word comes from? -the Troll Nope. It's in general use in the UK, not just in the military. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> >> Numpties? That's a new one on me. You wouldn't want to explain the >> >> derivation of the term would you? -the Troll [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It's in general use in the UK, not just in the military. It seems like one worth adopting. With us it's 'chair warmer', 'staff puke', and others less polite. -the Troll > Our Special Warfare types have wide access to weapons but I've > never heard of the Sig in use by them, British Special Forces use Sig pistols almost as standard and have for over twenty years now. There has been lots of talk about British units training US units in Iraq, this may be part of the 'fall out' from that. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Our Special Warfare types have wide access to weapons but I've >> never heard of the Sig in use by them, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > There has been lots of talk about British units training US units in Iraq, > this may be part of the 'fall out' from that. I haven't heard that but do know both armies are working together in teams to train the Iraqi Army. They have been working since June under an interesting guy, BG Dan Bolger who bears watching. He is a graduate of my old place, has a PHD, taught history at West Point, and has written and published five books. Here is a sample of his style: http://www.mnf-iraq.com/Transcripts/050611.htm -the Troll > The Ferguson Rifle comes to mind amongst others (subject > now happily OT). That was probably not as good as claimed. It has said like all pre-cartridge breech loaders to have suffered from gas erosion of the breech. This would get progressively worse until the gun was unusable. Not something you want to equip an army, as opposed to a specialist force with. Ken Young <kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message > In article (hippo) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Not something you want to equip an army, as opposed to a specialist > force with. There was an erosion problem and problems with fouling, partly solved by re-working the breech. I agree, though, that as built it wouldn't have been the ideal weapon for line infantry but for dragoons and riflemen it would have been fantastic. It could be reloaded from horseback or prone at probably a third of the time it took to reload a carbine and with twice the accurate range because it was rifled. The trick would have been to make the screw breech mechanism separate from the barrel (an extended breech plug) so it could be replaced as needed without junking the whole barrel. With guns like these a dismounted dragoon squadron could take on an Infantry regiment and win. -the Troll > There was an erosion problem and problems with fouling, partly solved by > re-working the breech. I agree, though, that as built it wouldn't have been > the ideal weapon for line infantry but for dragoons and riflemen it would > have been fantastic. By that stage the dragoons had lost their dismounted function and had become cavalry that carried a carbine as opposed to just pistols. It could be reloaded from horseback or prone at > probably a third of the time it took to reload a carbine and with twice the > accurate range because it was rifled. The trick would have been to make the > screw breech mechanism separate from the barrel (an extended breech plug) so > it could be replaced as needed without junking the whole barrel. With guns > like these a dismounted dragoon squadron could take on an Infantry regiment > and win The British went for the Baker because it wasn't significantly more sophisticated than the Long Land Pattern service musket. The Ferguson had problems and the people who'd have used it, such as the Rifle Brigade, were skirmishers and didn't usually have the facilities a line battalion would have, never mind the increased support a breach loader needed. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> There was an erosion problem and problems with fouling, partly solved by >> re-working the breech. I agree, though, that as built it wouldn't have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > become > cavalry that carried a carbine as opposed to just pistols. I know but with a honey of a rifle around there would have been a new place for dismounted cavalry. It could be reloaded from horseback or prone at >> probably a third of the time it took to reload a carbine and with twice > the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > loader > needed. I know they did and why. Armies are traditionally both cheap and conservative when it comes to weapons procurement but the Ferguson breach loading system is essentially sound and probably could have been developed even further with more time to experiment. It could have been issued to all cavalry regiments using carbines, and the rifle units without breaking the exchequer and to deadly effect. We had much the same problem with the Henry and other advanced designs on this side. No matter how great the raves from the troops, officialdom continued to obstruct their wider use. -the Troll > We had much the same problem with the Henry > and other advanced designs on this side. No matter how great the raves from > the troops, officialdom continued to obstruct their wider use. -the Troll Well the Henry had 'issues' from the start. To begin with it's a rim fire, and it's made of brass. So it's unreliable and fragile and a right sod to keep clean. A Sergeant Major's nightmare... The big question is 'why didn't the US adopt the Spencer?' The usual answer is that corruption in the Grant administration stopped them. With Spencers it's possible that some of Custer's men might have made it back. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> We had much the same problem with the Henry >> and other advanced designs on this side. No matter how great the raves [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > With Spencers it's possible that some of Custer's men might have made it > back. The Spencer was an odd duck with its fragile brass re-loading tube. You might better ask why not a Remington rolling block. You'll love this: http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/blus1866.htm -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/blus1866.htm Welcome to the wonderful world of military small arms. There's reams of this sort of stuff out there. Spending a day at the Small Arms Museum in the days when it was at Enfield Lock would have probably driven you bonkers, it nearly did for me over thirty years ago. Most of this stuff for the UK is now in the Royal Armouries Library as the 'National Small Arms Collection' was given over to them a couple of years ago, along with the paperwork, which I believe is still being catalogued. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> The Spencer was an odd duck with its fragile brass re-loading tube. You >> might better ask why not a Remington rolling block. You'll love this: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 'National Small Arms Collection' was given over to them a couple of years > ago, along with the paperwork, which I believe is still being catalogued. Chuckle, it has been fascinating to me since I was a kid. There are arms museums all over the States and my grandfather had a library with walls covered with old pistols, boar spears, crew oars, and trophy animal heads. I knew what a Colt conversion was before I could do long division and had a real Whitney .31 cal cap and ball pocket revolver to carry around through the fields playing desperado (having no idea what it was worth). It fit my little hands perfectly and looked almost like a Peacemaker. Colt continued to make them with a side hammer as the Root model 1855. The problem is kids wore sun suits in those days which didn't look at all like western garb and had no belt for your holster. -the Troll "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message Please read this by Lance Klein: http://www.11thpa.org/ferguson.html It's got everything including the opinion held by many Americans, including myself, that Howe (with his brother) was a traitor to Britain and lost the American war on purpose. The quote from the Colonial General Israel Putnam is telling, "Howe is either our friend or no General." -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.11thpa.org/ferguson.html I read it when it was first published a long time ago :-) The major problem with the Ferguson rifle was that it was loaded with loose powder and ball and the men would have had to have been issued with loose powder. By that stage nobody liked people wandering abouit with quantities of the stuff. However (There's always a 'however') Both Howe and Clinton were Whigs and so very sympathetic to the American rebels cause. Indeed Clinton, who was an MP, spoke on their behalf in the HoC before going to fight the war. Both generals refused to issue anything but very small numbers of the weapon, Howe issued 200 and Clinton, after they were returned to stores, only allowed 40 to be reissued for an unknown special purpose. Only one military rifle remains in existence, it's somewhere in the Morristown National Historical Park in New Jersey. It was made by Durs Egg. A sporting version still exists and carries the cypher of the Prince of Wales and is in the collection of the Royal Armouries at Leeds (and I've seen it). Now as the Prince was only seven years old when Ferguson was killed it's reasonable to assume that Durs Egg kept making them for some time afterwards. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Please read this by Lance Klein: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > killed it's reasonable to assume that Durs Egg kept making them for some > time afterwards. There are more, one in the West Point Museum, one owned by the Park Service in the museum at Kings Mountain, and several know to be in private collections. Sadly, I have never seen any of them. Loose powder was needed to prime the pan so it wouldn't have been a prohibiting factor. Some say it was because of the Howe brother's and Clinton's sympathies for the Colonials but others are not as charitable and think he was attempting to topple the North Government by loosing the war. The lot of them caused the loss of two British armies which, to me, looks a lot like treason. -the Troll > Some say it was because of the Howe brother's and Clinton's sympathies for > the Colonials but others are not as charitable and think he was attempting > to topple the North Government by loosing the war. The lot of them caused > the loss of two British armies which, to me, looks a lot like treason. Treason cannot prosper For with prosperity It ceases to be treason... Clinton and Howe were right. That they may have brought about the conditions that proved them right doesn't matter. Clinton had won in the South in an almost complete victory. He could have continued to fight, and possibly even win, but he didn't, he resigned and returned home. Some years later he was appointed Governor of Gibraltar, one of the most important and sensitive overseas posts available at that time, so he certainly wasn't in disgrace or distrusted. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Some say it was because of the Howe brother's and Clinton's sympathies >> for [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > important and sensitive overseas posts available at that time, so he > certainly wasn't in disgrace or distrusted. First, I don't agree they were right, and second, Generals shouldn't be making public policy. Hundreds of thousands of Loyalists suffered for their decision. Their lands and property were confiscated and they were obliged to flee. Two British armies were beaten and captured and Howe let the main French fleet escape. Washington's army could have been destroyed three times but wasn't. The war could have been effectively ended after the battle of Long Island in 1776 with the capture of Washington and his entire field army resulting in far less suffering for both sides. -the Troll > First, I don't agree they were right, and second, Generals shouldn't be > making public policy. Who should then? At the time Britain couldn't be described as a representative democracy in any sort of believable way. Clinton was at least an MP. By the end of the war the Tory government had fallen and Bentinck was Prime Minister, who happened to be a Whig, the same as Clinton... Politics is a dirty business... How closely Clinton and Howe conspired with Fox is a matter for speculation, but there's no doubt that their party prospered as the war went badly. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> First, I don't agree they were right, and second, Generals shouldn't be >> making public policy. > > Who should then? You don't believe that any more than I do. > At the time Britain couldn't be described as a representative democracy in > any sort of believable way. > > Clinton was at least an MP. ....in opposition. Sending him was about as clever as sending the Democrat Senate Majority Leader or Dean to prosecute the war in Iraq. Perhaps the government thought he would be moved by the suffering of Loyalists. > By the end of the war the Tory government had fallen and Bentinck was > Prime [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > speculation, > but there's no doubt that their party prospered as the war went badly. Yes, funny about that. -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You don't believe that any more than I do. In the Britain of the late eighteenth century there isn't really what any of us would call a legitimate government. The military were a power block much as any other. > > Clinton was at least an MP. > > ....in opposition. Sending him was about as clever as sending the Democrat > Senate Majority Leader or Dean to prosecute the war in Iraq. Perhaps the > government thought he would be moved by the suffering of Loyalists. What eighteenth century British officer was ever moved by anyone's suffering? > > How closely Clinton and Howe conspired with Fox is a matter for > > speculation, > > but there's no doubt that their party prospered as the war went badly. > > Yes, funny about that. In many ways the American Revolution is driven by politics back home. Of course this is denied in 'the American Legend' as people need to believe in their heroes. That successive British commander's in chief may have wanted to be beaten is something most people don't want to consider. It's like Wellington refusing to go to take America to command in the War of 1812. What might have happened if he had done is something the 'what if' people seem to shy away from. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message > In the Britain of the late eighteenth century there isn't really what any > of > us would call a legitimate government. > > The military were a power block much as any other. At least the King had advisors and Parliament. Amongst the three of them there was at least a consensus of sorts with most areas of the country and current opinion represented in the stew and, if no true democracy, was far better than what most in Europe enjoyed. >> > Clinton was at least an MP. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What eighteenth century British officer was ever moved by anyone's > suffering? The Duke of Wellington with Catholic Emancipation and the Corn Laws. >> > How closely Clinton and Howe conspired with Fox is a matter for >> > speculation, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > is > something most people don't want to consider. It was discussed in my US History courses at Uni. > It's like Wellington refusing to go to take America to command in the War > of > 1812. > > What might have happened if he had done is something the 'what if' people > seem to shy away from. By 1812 it would have been too late. In 1776 at least a third of the population was loyal and another third indifferent. The British only had to fight a third and had the alliance of an equal number. More men, in fact, signed up to fight for the King than for George Washington. That army sat mostly unused on Long Island. Wellington was wise to turn down the appointment. -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message <snip> >> It's like Wellington refusing to go to take America to command in the War >> of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > army sat mostly unused on Long Island. Wellington was wise to turn down > the appointment. -the Troll Wellington was not offered command of a British army in North America until 1814, *after* the conclusion of the Peninsular War and the first abdication of Napoleon. He had more important fish to fry, in France. -- cheers, David Read > "William Black" wrote in message > > What eighteenth century British officer was ever moved by anyone's > > suffering? > > The Duke of Wellington with Catholic Emancipation and the Corn Laws. Well leaving aside that Wellington was probably the most reactionary Prime Minister we ever had, by that stage he wasn't a serving officer. Also he was a product of India, and 'Indian' officers were considered second rate by 'Horseguards', and given to 'strange enthusiasms'. > > In many ways the American Revolution is driven by politics back home. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It was discussed in my US History courses at Uni. It would be. I doubt it is discussed when taught in schools. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> > What eighteenth century British officer was ever moved by anyone's >> > suffering? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > was a product of India, and 'Indian' officers were considered second rate > by 'Horseguards', and given to 'strange enthusiasms'. To me 'reactionary' is a compliment which, when added to his many defeats of the French, classic one liners, fearlessness, organizational abilities, and willingness go to the wall over very dicey social issues like Catholic Emancipation, make him an exemplar of what made Britain great during the period. >> > In many ways the American Revolution is driven by politics back home. >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It would be. I doubt it is discussed when taught in schools. To be honest I can't remember that far back. To be doubly honest it was discussed at Uni because I went to a very reactionary school which wasn't known for supporting the idea of revolutions no matter who was doing it except, of course, for the South which isn't viewed here as a revolution at all. Here it is commonly called 'the War of Northern Aggression', or 'the War Between the States'. -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message > > > What eighteenth century British officer was ever moved by anyone's > > suffering? > > The Duke of Wellington with Catholic Emancipation and the Corn Laws. It is interesting that you bring up the Corn Laws and I am surprised that WB did not beard you about it. I would put the supplementary to you, "Who was suffering as a result of the Corn Laws?" AIUI, the Corn Laws were abolished to reduce the cost of food so that wages paid to labour in factories could be correspondingly reduced, and thus improve the profit margins in the industrial sector. The abolition was decidedly against British rural interests (it was wildly unpopular in Upper Canada where settlers were "wheat-mining" in the Grade 1 farm lands of South-western Ontario and who would lose their advantage). The act to abolish them would pass through Parliament largely as a result of the reforms that improved urban representation in the Commons. I am sure if one reads the debates, one would find reference to the suffering they caused, but I am sure it was general pecuniary interest that got them dumped. As for Catholic emancipation, I think an argument can be made for the Iron Duke perceiving it as an injustice and acting accordingly, but more usually -- and perhaps more correctly -- it is seen as an attempt to keep the Irish cauldron from boiling over. [BTW, thanks, gents, nice job of dragging an off-topic thread on.] SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) "Andrew Chaplin" <ab.chaplin@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message > AIUI, the Corn Laws were abolished to reduce the cost of food so that > wages paid to labour in factories could be correspondingly reduced, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > more usually -- and perhaps more correctly -- it is seen as an attempt > to keep the Irish cauldron from boiling over. Wellington's personal motivation in supporting the repeal of the Corn Laws revolved almost entirely around stability in the face of possible revolution and the preservation of the Tory administration. The Irish Question would have figured in that equation. > [BTW, thanks, gents, nice job of dragging an off-topic thread on.] And it's also nice if you make the subject line relevant to the discussion. -- cheers, David Read > It is interesting that you bring up the Corn Laws and I am surprised > that WB did not beard you about it. Because the Tory repeal of the Corn Laws is more to do with power than with the price of corn. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > > It is interesting that you bring up the Corn Laws and I am surprised > > that WB did not beard you about it. > > Because the Tory repeal of the Corn Laws is more to do with power than with > the price of corn. "More to do with power"? How post-structuralist of you. :^) SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) > > > It is interesting that you bring up the Corn Laws and I am > surprised [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "More to do with power"? How post-structuralist of you. :^) Thus we find that the later years of the Wellingtom premiership policy is more to do with party unity than any coherent expression of policy... I could go on... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> "William Black" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > [BTW, thanks, gents, nice job of dragging an off-topic thread on.] The Corn Laws were artificial in the first place and anti-free enterprise. Like protective tariffs, mercantilism, subsidies, and other artificial government imposed restrictions on free competition and trade, they often have unseen consequences and usually remain around long after their intended purpose has been met. Our modern farm subsidies are an example. Originally put in place to support small farmers, they now add to the bottom line of huge agribusiness conglomerates and make us hated by third world growers who are unable to compete, neither an intended consequence. Catholic Emancipation was a reform long past its time. Spain and Portugal were by then allies, where the Duke was wildly popular by the way, and religion was no longer a factor in international relations after the defeat of Napoleon. It was time to unload the unjust religious laws put in in Tudor times for national security reasons. -the Troll > Loose powder was needed to prime the pan so it wouldn't have been a > prohibiting factor. Musket loading drill was to bite off the ball, use a little powder from the cartridge to prime the pan, pour the rest down the muzzle, use the empty cartridge as a wad, spit the ball into the barrel and tamp down. The only powder was carried in paper cartridges. Ken Young > > Loose powder was needed to prime the pan so it wouldn't have been a > > prohibiting factor. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > use the empty cartridge as a wad, spit the ball into the barrel and > tamp down. The only powder was carried in paper cartridges. We're talking about the Ferguson breech loading rifle. It was loaded with loose powder. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > We're talking about the Ferguson breech loading rifle. > > It was loaded with loose powder. The point being that the regulars did not carry loose powder. Even for priming pans. Ken Young > > We're talking about the Ferguson breech loading rifle. > > > > It was loaded with loose powder. > > The point being that the regulars did not carry loose powder. Even > for priming pans. And loose powder is volatile and nasty stuff. I can see the navy having problems with that particular firearm for a start. But the change from 'boxes' with a loose single charge to cartridges is very early. They are first mentioned for small arms in the first half of the seventeenth century, and for cannon there is a fifteenth century picture of what looks to be a container of powder cartridges next to a cannon. At Edgehill in 1642 twelve musketeers were killed when someone made a mistake with a 'budge barrel' that held loose powder for reloads for musketeers. I get the distinct impression that armies didn't like loose powder about the place, with good reason. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > At Edgehill in 1642 twelve musketeers were killed when someone made > a mistake with a 'budge barrel' that held loose powder for reloads > for musketeers. Using matchlocks did not help. Ken Young > > At Edgehill in 1642 twelve musketeers were killed when someone made > > a mistake with a 'budge barrel' that held loose powder for reloads > > for musketeers. > > Using matchlocks did not help. Well we don't actually know what happened as everyone concerned was blown to flinders. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. <kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message > In article (hippo) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > use the empty cartridge as a wad, spit the ball into the barrel and > tamp down. The only powder was carried in paper cartridges. With hunters and private shooters a finer grain powder (FFFFg) was used to prime the pan just as we do today when shooting flintlocks. It is faster burning creating more positive ignition. With the Ferguson Rifle, neither patch nor pre-measured powder charges were required. The ball rolled forward against the rifling lands creating a seal and excess powder was cut off by the breech screw. There is no reason cartridges couldn't have been used. The paper cartridge would just be discarded instead of being used as a wad. -the Troll > <kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > cartridges couldn't have been used. The paper cartridge would just be > discarded instead of being used as a wad. -the Troll Except you didn't want a lot of black powder impregnated paper lying about North American forests in high summer... You also don't want your men dropping bits of paper about the place that could give away their position before they fired. I'm still interested in the 'special purposes' Clinton issued forty Ferguson rifles for. I feel a movie script may well be in there somewhere... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> > In article (hippo) wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > You also don't want your men dropping bits of paper about the place that > could give away their position before they fired. There were far more generals in history capable of empathy than ecology minded with respect to tidy battlefields. > I'm still interested in the 'special purposes' Clinton issued forty > Ferguson > rifles for. > > I feel a movie script may well be in there somewhere... Me too, Marines maybe? For fighting from the tops the rifles would have been perfect. Some may have made it to the South where Tarleton was having problems with rebel militia riflemen. As I said, the Park Service has one in their museum at Kings Mountain. -the Troll > "William Black" wrote in message > > I'm still interested in the 'special purposes' Clinton issued forty > > Ferguson [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Me too, Marines maybe? For fighting from the tops the rifles would have been > perfect. Doubtful. The RN was more than a touch paranoid about loose powder on ships at that time, with good reason. Some may have made it to the South where Tarleton was having > problems with rebel militia riflemen. As I said, the Park Service has one in > their museum at Kings Mountain. I have this image of 'proto Riflemen' halfway between Roger's Rifles and Sharpe creeping about doing exciting stuff. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> > I'm still interested in the 'special purposes' Clinton issued forty >> > Ferguson [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The RN was more than a touch paranoid about loose powder on ships at that > time, with good reason. You are way off on this one. You could use made up cartridges with the Ferguson as easily as loose powder and six aimed shots per minute from each marine in the tops would make life miserable and/or short on the enemy upper-decks. > Some may have made it to the South where Tarleton was having >> problems with rebel militia riflemen. As I said, the Park Service has one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have this image of 'proto Riflemen' halfway between Roger's Rifles and > Sharpe creeping about doing exciting stuff. Ah, if it's going to be fiction it could be billed as a sequel to 'The Patriot' and called 'The Loyalist' with Rebel militia burning women and children in churches, raping the livestock, eating infants, and plundering the poor. Nathaniel Greene could be depicted as a nose picking, belching, drooling, blood thirsty, debauched sadist greedy for plunder and real estate, and the hero could be a poor, Scottish, pacifist, clergyman driven to take up arms by the sight of his flock and family of twelve being butchered in a village square. The rifle could be sent to him by its maker in Scotland as a gift and with which he exacts his solitary revenge by finally shooting the antagonist in the posterior while in flagrante delicto with a barnyard animal, maybe a chicken. The film would serve the additional purpose of showing old Mel that 'artistic license' can cut both ways. -the Troll "Thur" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> From Sig-Sauer comes the news the US Army has recently contracted for >> 1000 of their P228 pistols in .45 ACP to be known as the M11. I did tell [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> periodicals we all know and love. :^) -the Troll > But why to a.h.b? > Why not to alt.guns etc.? 'Cause I don't crosspost and know there are old soldiers and military minded folks on ahb to which this would be of interest. The gun NGs don't deserve all the hot tidbits of gossip. -the Troll What's a good price for this sidearm -- to the buyer? Where is the best place to buy one? DSH > "Thur" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > minded folks on ahb to which this would be of interest. The gun NGs don't > deserve all the hot tidbits of gossip. -the Troll >What's a good price for this sidearm -- to the buyer? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> minded folks on ahb to which this would be of interest. The gun NGs don't >> deserve all the hot tidbits of gossip. -the Troll With a rail attachment for a laser sight and paint-ball ammo I understand... :) SignatureBryn "Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh "But be certain, a paw in the eye hurts like hell! To email remove GREMILNS "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message > What's a good price for this sidearm -- to the buyer? > > Where is the best place to buy one? The P228 can be had for 5-600 bucks but not in .45. Most used ones are in 9mm or .40. I buy guns at shows mostly because I never buy new ones. If you have a local dealer who will take them in for a nominal charge, you can often buy them cheaper on line. I don't recommend it for guns you are planning to shoot because you can't inspect the bores. -the Troll Thanks. The prices online for the Sig-Sauer P228 .45 ACP seem to run above $700. Is that a rip-off? What do you look for when you inspect the bores? What are the tell-tale signs of abuse or excessive wear? Inspecting bores [and boars] on USENET is far easier. <g> DSH > "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > can often buy them cheaper on line. I don't recommend it for guns you are > planning to shoot because you can't inspect the bores. -the Troll "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message > Thanks. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What are the tell-tale signs of abuse or excessive wear? They must be new prices. .45 ACP is a new loading for the P228. Used guns, unless they have been abused, are as good as new ones at often two thirds or even half the price. A bore should be bright (not 'hazy'), with sharp lands and groves, no obvious scratches, and the muzzle clear of signs of having been abused by careless cleaning with a steel rod. The prospective buyer has every right to have the bore cleaned before you agree to buy. The throat where the cartridge slides into the chamber from the magazine must be smooth and the ejector must function. Test it or have the seller test it in front of you. Make sure the magazine feeds, has no dents or rust, slides easily in and out, and locks in place securely. Autos often have after-market magazines which may not work as well as the originals. Grips and barrels of autos can always be replaced if the price is right. Often you can put a match quality barrel on a used gun for less cost than a new one. Both my 1911s are war production but have match barrels. The only other thing to check is fit of the parts. If the slide rattles too badly or barrel wobbles in its bushing, the gun won't be accurate. -the Troll Thank you kindly. I'll keep all those historical facts firmly in mind. DSH > "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > rattles too badly or barrel wobbles in its bushing, the gun won't be > accurate. -the Troll "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message > Thank you kindly. > > I'll keep all those historical facts firmly in mind. Very welcome. -the Troll > Thanks. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> for guns you are planning to shoot because you can't inspect the >> bores. -the Troll Bore inspection isn't the problem. Barrels are replaceable drop-in parts. The critical issue is the state of the frame. IBM > Thanks. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Inspecting bores [and boars] on USENET is far easier. <g> Slide rail wear is the big indicator on second hand auto loading pistols. Barrels are drop in replacement items. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message >> Thanks. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Barrels are drop in replacement items. Except that they are expensive, often can't be found, and sometimes should be mounted by a gunsmith as in the case of the Luger. I have never found a civilian automatic used to the extent slide wear is a problem. It is, or course, with military guns like the 1911 which were not produced after '45 and were in use for half a century. I look for 1911s which were not sold out of military stocks. Thousands were brought back after the WWII as souvenirs. -the Troll > I have never found a > civilian automatic used to the extent slide wear is a problem. You obviously never owned a S&W Model 39, mine showed wear after 500 rounds and after five thousand was just about unusable as a target pistol. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> I have never found a >> civilian automatic used to the extent slide wear is a problem. > > You obviously never owned a S&W Model 39, mine showed wear after 500 > rounds > and after five thousand was just about unusable as a target pistol. I would not say that was a *characteristic* of the Model 39; a friend of mine had one that had fired thousands of rounds with no problems and no excessive wear (at which point it was stolen from him). I had a Model 459 that I just plain did not like, but saw no slide wear problems with it during the time I owned it. Brooks > >> I have never found a > >> civilian automatic used to the extent slide wear is a problem. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that I just plain did not like, but saw no slide wear problems with it > during the time I owned it. Well either I got a bad one or I was using commercial ammunition it didn't like. As I sold it for more than I paid for it I've no real cause for complaint... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. "William Black" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> I have never found a >> civilian automatic used to the extent slide wear is a problem. > > You obviously never owned a S&W Model 39, mine showed wear after 500 > rounds > and after five thousand was just about unusable as a target pistol. Never have, but I've put thousands of rounds through Colt Combat Commanders, Browning M1900s and M1922s, besides military autos, and have never experienced slide wear. I have only seen it in worn out 1911s. -the Troll I would like to know where the original poster ("hippo") got his information. From all I can tell, the Sig-Sauer P228 is a _compact_ 9mm, and the Army has been buying that pistol as the M11. Is the frame of the P228 large enough for the .45 ammunition? >What's a good price for this sidearm -- to the buyer? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> minded folks on ahb to which this would be of interest. The gun NGs don't >> deserve all the hot tidbits of gossip. -the Troll >I would like to know where the original poster ("hippo") got his > information. From all I can tell, the Sig-Sauer P228 is a _compact_ > 9mm, and the Army has been buying that pistol as the M11. Is the > frame of the P228 large enough for the .45 ammunition? You mean this one: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m11.htm General Officer's pistol, I believe. Glenn D. "Pete Granzeau" wrote in message >I would like to know where the original poster ("hippo") got his > information. From all I can tell, the Sig-Sauer P228 is a _compact_ > 9mm, and the Army has been buying that pistol as the M11. Is the > frame of the P228 large enough for the .45 ammunition? Got it from a news release by SIGARMS passed on to me by an officer in the Marine Corps. The M11 is a derivation of the P228, possibly with a larger frame but the release didn't say. From the photo in the release the slide looks longer. -the Troll >"Pete Granzeau" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >frame but the release didn't say. From the photo in the release the slide >looks longer. -the Troll AUSA Army Magazine carries similar information: http://www.ausa.org/webpub/DeptArmyMagazine.nsf/byid/CCRN-6CCS3N SignatureBryn "Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh "But be certain, a paw in the eye hurts like hell! To email remove GREMILNS "Bryn" wrote in message > In message hippo writes >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.ausa.org/webpub/DeptArmyMagazine.nsf/byid/CCRN-6CCS3N Yup, except the M11 mentioned in service for some time is in 9mm and not by combat forces. The new buy is in .45 ACP. We are going to buy a new pistol soon, and maybe even in .45 ACP. If the M11 works out in practice, it may beat out the competition. -the Troll > "Bryn" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > soon, and maybe even in .45 ACP. If the M11 works out in practice, it may > beat out the competition. -the Troll When the time comes that the US Army goes looking for a pistol, I will tell you one of the contenders to watch: The new Smith and Wesson "Military and Police." It just came out in .40 S&W, is soon coming in 9mm (Supposedly before year's end) and then in .45 early 2006. On the American Backyard forum, some of the old hand gun writers have been able to check it out and test it, and they love it. A heck of a gun and apparently very reliable and user friendly. Also made and designed in the US, which always helps with some of the political and ordnance bureau folks. That said, I love the 1911, and the Beretta 92 has grown on me. But the M&P will be one to watch, in my opinion. http://www.ambackforum.com/ for the forum group. "Handguns, Autoloaders" is the category where M&P auto info is posted now. David >>"Pete Granzeau" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >http://www.ausa.org/webpub/DeptArmyMagazine.nsf/byid/CCRN-6CCS3N That article mentions both M9 and M11, states specifically that both are 9mm Parabellum pistols, and only mentions .45 caliber in passing as having been replaced by 9mm. If you have something else in that magazine, I'd appreciate an accurate URL. >I would like to know where the original poster ("hippo") got his >information. From all I can tell, the Sig-Sauer P228 is a _compact_ >9mm, and the Army has been buying that pistol as the M11. Is the >frame of the P228 large enough for the .45 ammunition? The P228 was the pistol left recently in the ladies at a local supermarket by a member of the army "elite" forces, loaded with blanks. The female officer returned to find it gone. It was later handed in by a local lad who took it but lost his nerve. I do wonder how it got from the ladies' facility into his possession. -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL > The P228 was the pistol left recently in the ladies at a local > supermarket by a member of the army "elite" forces, Nope. Part time soldier in the Military Police. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> The P228 was the pistol left recently in the ladies at a local >> supermarket by a member of the army "elite" forces, > >Nope. > >Part time soldier in the Military Police. Rather than finding a pistol to arm oneself, it's easier to drive to the Czech Republic, buy a 9mm auto at a car boot sale for £70 and sneak it back (apparently). -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL > >> The P228 was the pistol left recently in the ladies at a local > >> supermarket by a member of the army "elite" forces, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the Czech Republic, buy a 9mm auto at a car boot sale for £70 and > sneak it back (apparently). If you ever get the chance to test fire one, the CZ-75 Czech made auto pistol is an excellent pointer. Built solid as a rock too. > -- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >> >> The P228 was the pistol left recently in the ladies at a local >> >> supermarket by a member of the army "elite" forces, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >If you ever get the chance to test fire one, the CZ-75 Czech made auto >pistol is an excellent pointer. Built solid as a rock too. As I said before, the Warsaw Pact CZ-75 won the US 9 mm shootout, but of course the contract went to the second place Beretta. -- Julian Richards medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >As I said before, the Warsaw Pact CZ-75 won the US 9 mm shootout, but >of course the contract went to the second place Beretta. According to Hogg, writing in 1983... The initial contest had quite a wide range of candidates. The control weapons were the M1911A1 and the Smith & Wesson Model 15; the candidate competitors were the H&K VP70 and P9S, the Star M28DA, three FN offerings (the High-Power, the FNDA and FNFA), the Beretta 92S, the Colt SSP and the Smith and Wesson M459. These were subjected to accuracy, reliability, usability and environmental survival; the results were somewhat surprising but the declared outcome was that only the Beretta 92 and the S&W M459 were sufficiently reliable for military use, and the Beretta 92S was nominated as the recommended winner. Nothing happened for a while, then the US Army held another competition: this time only four candidates presented themselves; the Beretta 92SB, the S&W M459A, the Heckler and Koch P7M13 and the SIG-Sauer P226. Apparently all four failed for reasons unspecified. Another round of trials produced the same result. Yet another competition followed in 1984, with entries from S&W, Beretta, SIG-Sauer, H&K, Walther, Steyr, and FN. The Beretta and the SIG-Sauer were declared as having both passed the requirements: the P226 was allegedly the best of the lot, but sufficiently more expensive that they went for the #2 candidate, the Beretta. I don't believe the CZ75 was ever formally evaluated, fine weapon though it is. SignatureHe thinks too much: such men are dangerous. &nb |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message