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History Forum / General / British History / January 2006The Brutish Empire ?
Dear Marge, An article in the UK's Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1690606,00.html lambasts us Brits for being beastly to the Sinhalese 2 centuries ago, the implication (to me, anyway) being that we must be ashamed of our imperial past. I have to admit that I'm quite proud and would say that it's (a) wrong to judge past actions by modern criteria and (b) likely that any country colonised by Britain would have been colonised by any one of another dozen or so European powers and would have been a lot worse off. I'm also a bit sick of being asked to apologise, although I see nothing wrong with the Japanese and Germans being forced to own to past offences. Does this make me a hypocrite ? yrs, Confused of Barking > An article in the UK's Guardian > http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1690606,00.html > lambasts us Brits for being beastly to the Sinhalese 2 centuries ago, > the implication (to me, anyway) being that we must be ashamed of our [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > one of another dozen or so European powers and would have been a lot > worse off. I'm not quite sure who should be lambasted or ashamed. Is it all Brits, does that include Brits who might be descendants of Sinhalese who emigrated to this country, is it just the descendants of anyone who behaved badly, or just those who own property & goods wrongly taken at that time? And can any of us descended from those who, though UK British at the time, were equally oppressed by the same people who reportedly did badly by the Sinhalese, be required to be ashamed?  SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing >> An article in the UK's Guardian > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > oppressed by the same people who reportedly did badly by the Sinhalese, be > required to be ashamed? Whatever, I find the idea that guilt must be carried down generations a puzzle. We are always making judgements of history of some kind or another, and despite ourselves we make those judgements with some kind of predudice based upon the cultural absorbence from childhood. "If we are to celebrate Britishness as the chancellor wants "us to do then the lesser-known aspects of our past ought "to be thrown into the mix. "lesser-known aspects of our past" That's a good-un. Try All our History. SignatureThur > >> An article in the UK's Guardian > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > oppressed by the same people who reportedly did badly by the Sinhalese, be > > required to be ashamed? > Whatever, I find the idea that guilt must be carried down > generations a puzzle. Precisely. [,,,] > "If we are to celebrate Britishness as the chancellor wants > "us to do then the lesser-known aspects of our past ought > "to be thrown into the mix. Well, an Englishman allegedly invented the modern version of the flush toilet, without which nearly all innovation could never occur. This is confirmed in a Wikipedia article which apologizes for a "regrettably Anglocentric" version but thoughtfully includes a piccie of a flush toilet for readers who don't know what one looks like. -- So I was listening to BBC 4 on WiFi in California in the coffee bar at the back of a Borders Books store, at about 5 pm my time when it was approaching 1 am in London. They began playing the nightly "Sailing By," which precedes the marine weathercast. The music is intended to induce sleep, sex, or whatever it is that people do an hour past midnight. And if the music doesn't do the trick, certainly the monotonous marine report will. A store clerk comes by, asks if she can take my coffee cup and says I was snoring. "Snoring loudly, sir," I think she put it with a degree of disapproving finality. The "sir" ending with falling pitch in America is approximately equivalent to the English "old boy" form of address with rising pitch. The last thing I remember before nodding off was a comedy skit with a diminutive sounding woman with a voice that sounded like the Queen's calling up Tony Blair and asking in a cockey accent -- she had recently visited his residence, no? -- "Your place or mine, then?" That's British in the best sense of the word. The only war worthy of the nomenclature the Brits have started in recent years was to get the Falklands / Malvinas back from the Argentine military government that occupied them. And then, as if to prove Big G were on the side of Whitehall, the Argentine colonels were practically made to drown when they waded into the sea weighed down by their own chest medals. One is reminded of the parting of the Red Sea. As far I'm concerned, you can retain southern Hindustan and Ceylon if the Sinhalese ever want you back. Jim Collier, near San Francisco snip > So I was listening to BBC 4 on WiFi in California in the > coffee bar at the back of a Borders Books store, at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > music doesn't do the trick, certainly the monotonous > marine report will. The shipping forecast is the best programme on the radio. http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast/shipping/ I'm still not happy about FitzRoy, Maggie would have never stood for it. Jamie > snip > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Jamie Some prat at the beeb has now axed the theme tune I wake up to. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006801,00.html Jamie > Some prat at the beeb has now axed the theme tune I wake up to. > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006801,00.html Those musical tags are more important than we would have people believe. When I was a boy, the BBC news was still broadcast on CBC Radio just after the news at noon and began with Safroni's great march, "Imperial Echoes." It ended with Holst's "Jupiter: Bringer of Jollity" (can't say the producers didn't have a sense of irony) from "The Planets." Radio Canada used to signal the news at the top of the hour with the first four notes of "O Canada," the way the first four notes of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony to signal "V" for victory was used during the Second War. The CBC's burst of beeps it uses to break into shceduled programming for special news broadcasts can still rouse me from a deep sleep. It's likely a sign of my advancing age, but I do wish they would leave well enough alone. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >> Some prat at the beeb has now axed the theme tune I wake up to. >> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006801,00.html [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It's likely a sign of my advancing age, but I do wish they would leave > well enough alone. If it wasn't for the shipping forecast I would tune the alarm back to radio 2 in protest :-)) Jamie > If it wasn't for the shipping forecast I would tune the alarm back to radio > 2 in protest :-)) Heard something last night which caught my fancy. Radio 4 comes back on in the middle of the night with kids' programs intended to be re-played to a kid audience during school hours. I was pretty absorbed in what I was doing last night -- this was about 8 pm my time -- though I normally would have changed stations when the children's stuff started. Instead, I heard something with the opening of Mendelssohn's "Hebrides Overture," or Fingal's Cave as it is known. (They would never make American children listen to such beautiful music, although they do get a nice sampling of "Appalachian Spring".) It was a serial version of a juvenile novel called "The Wreck of the Zanzibar." It is set in the Isles of Scilly, far south of the Hebrides, in the first decade of the last century. But its significance as a brooding picture in C-minor of Britain's windward Atlantic coasts was not lost. Nicely done. -- Check out the home page of www.jim-collier.com. >> If it wasn't for the shipping forecast I would tune the alarm back to >> radio [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of Britain's windward Atlantic coasts was not lost. > Nicely done. You can listen again here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schoolradio/drama/firststepsindrama.shtml Jamie > > Some prat at the beeb has now axed the theme tune I wake up to. > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006801,00.html [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > beeps it uses to break into shceduled programming for special news > broadcasts can still rouse me from a deep sleep. Well, I was doing pretty well with "Master Team" (BBC 4, Saturday at 2300 GMT) when Peter Snow asked the panel to identify *what* the planets of Holst were the bringers-of for Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Jupiter is bringer of jollity, we've established, and I would have guessed "beauty" or "love" for Venus and "wisdom" for Saturn. But no cigar, which I wouldn't permit in my house anyway. "John Cartmell" wrote in message > In article Michael Gooding wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > oppressed by the same people who reportedly did badly by the Sinhalese, be > required to be ashamed? It's clearly a general remark as is the article in the Guardian. I don't believe in genetically transmitted guilt, national or otherwise, anyway but British Imperialism certainly did as much good as it did evil. You Brits stopped the extermination of the Shona people at the hands of the Ndebele in what is now Zimbabwe, united India and gave it its only common language, and created the greatest economic powerhouse per capita in modern history in Hong Kong to name but a few. -the Troll >Dear Marge, >An article in the UK's Guardian [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Confused of Barking Anyone who reads the Guardian should be ashamed. >>Dear Marge, >>An article in the UK's Guardian [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Anyone who reads the Guardian should be ashamed. Yep, staffed by some very odd people and a resident madwoman named Polly T. Actually to take Ceylon we paid the Swiss mercenaries of the Dutch East India Company more money. http://www.lib.mq.edu.au/digital/under/research/biographies/agnew.html The King of Kandy was about the most barbaric so and so that the British Empire ever came across, btw. Jonathan Steele is apparently their senior foreign correspondent. "Two books that came out last year on Britain's suppression of the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya in the 1950s uncovered brutality and mass murder, ordered by the British authorities, on a scale that matched Kandy in 1815." I doubt he has ever heard of the "Groundnut Scheme", this prat insults people like my uncle who worked on it. "That same fairness demands that we assess and teach our history accurately. The growing number of Britons who are not descended from an empire-building or empire-running past know from their own families' oral reminiscences, and from the white-supremacist chauvinism they encounter, that the textbook story of Britain's past is a lie. Recognising our true history is what the chancellor's Britishness campaign should focus on." Yep, Rhodesia was a sh.t-hole before Mugabe put it right. Jamie >> "Two books that came out last year on Britain's suppression of the Mau Mau > rebellion in Kenya in the 1950s uncovered brutality and mass murder, ordered > by the British authorities, on a scale that matched Kandy in 1815." Jesus wept, I thought he was talking about the Mau Mau until I got to the end. That xxxx xxxxxxxxx needs to get his head sorted. Surreyman "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > Yep, Rhodesia was a sh.t-hole before Mugabe put it right. Still makes me crazy all these years later. Rhodesia had the highest Black literacy rate, longest life expectancy, and lowest infant mortality rate in all Africa. Now it is a sh.t-hole like you say. I don't think the Guardian is saying too much about it, bastards. I get really tired of saying 'told you so' when it is too damned late. The only thing makes me feel better is I called the US controller of foreign assets a f**king Nazi when he seized the assets of the Rhodesian Information Office with the sole purpose of shutting down their little monthly publication 'Rhodesia Today'. I reminded him we could find Pravda on the news stands. He blamed the UN, bastards. All the ***holes who worked against the Smith government should be required to live in the mess they made for a year. -the Troll > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ***holes who worked against the Smith government should be required to live > in the mess they made for a year. -the Troll We've been close friends with a couple for some 50 years. He's UK white. She's Asian (Indian) from (then) Rhodesia. They met there and married there with no prob whatsoever under the Smith regime. They couldn't even have looked at each other in some other countries. Coincidentally, I've just returned today from a funeral. Another 50-year friendship. He's UK white, she was Asian Indian in (then) British Guiana. Again, they married there. At a rough count we probably have some half-dozen mixed marriage friendships from the same era, all due to and thanks to the Empire, of course. Surreyman > > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > At a rough count we probably have some half-dozen mixed marriage friendships > from the same era, all due to and thanks to the Empire, of course. PS: And all I ended up with was a Spanish/German (duck!). Surreyman "a.spencer3" wrote in message > PS: And all I ended up with was a Spanish/German (duck!). Hey, she can talk to the Spanish doctors looking after you in your old age and make sure they transplant the right organ ...... if they know what an organ is, of course, besides the thing in churches one plays Bach on which are fortunately too large to fit in. -the Troll > "a.spencer3" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > organ is, of course, besides the thing in churches one plays Bach on which > are fortunately too large to fit in. -the Troll Nah - I reckon my belly would take one. Surreyman "a.spencer3" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> > PS: And all I ended up with was a Spanish/German (duck!). >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > Nah - I reckon my belly would take one. Not one of the really big Spanish ones, lucky for you. Nope, in Spain the problem is likelier they would put someone's lunch in by mistake or that the proper organ went slightly off in the fridge and no one can tell over the garlic, rancid olive oil, and chorizo. Yup, I can see how being married to a Spanish duck could be useful if I were planning to move to Spain which, of course, I'm not and wouldn't. :^) -the Troll > "a.spencer3" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Spanish duck could be useful if I were planning to move to Spain which, of > course, I'm not and wouldn't. :^) -the Troll Well, she's a bit de-Spanished now - it was her Grandmother, I think. The Spanish & German immigrants have been well filtered by coming down through solid Cockney stock (and a bit of Irish)! She doesn't even speak the language, so she's a bit useless all round, really (duck!). Surreyman "a.spencer3" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> >> > PS: And all I ended up with was a Spanish/German (duck!). >> >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > She doesn't even speak the language, so she's a bit useless all round, > really (duck!). Tough luck. Voted best joke in Australia: Man walks into bedroom with a sheep under his arm and says, " this is the pig I have been sleeping with when you have headaches." Wife in bed says, "I think you will find that is a sheep, idiot." Man rejoins, "I think you will find I wasn't speaking to you." -the Troll snip > Voted best joke in Australia: > > Man walks into bedroom with a sheep under his arm and says, " this is the > pig I have been sleeping with when you have headaches." > Wife in bed says, "I think you will find that is a sheep, idiot." > Man rejoins, "I think you will find I wasn't speaking to you." -the Troll :-)) Jamie That is indeed VERY good. Let's hear from the Scots -- they are experts on this. DSH > snip >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jamie > That is indeed VERY good. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > Jamie A whole seperate species of cow with, non-intuitively, uniquely in the world, RED hair amongst the worlds largest red hair population per head of population and STILL sheep shagging jokes. Humans and their Humour about their Scottish enemies! > > That is indeed VERY good. > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Humans and their Humour about their Scottish enemies! never thought about that. but you make a very good point. > "a.spencer3" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Wife in bed says, "I think you will find that is a sheep, idiot." > Man rejoins, "I think you will find I wasn't speaking to you." -the Troll Passed straight around our joke circuit! Surreyman "a.spencer3" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > friendships > from the same era, all due to and thanks to the Empire, of course. Yup, and IMO you maligned-by-the-Guardian colonialists were doing a far better job governing than either native regimes or any other colonial power. The only folks who had problems in Rhodesia were terrorists. Make no mistake minority rule is wrong, but it's stupid to turn governments over to folks from tribal cultures untrained to govern. -the Troll > Yup, and IMO you maligned-by-the-Guardian colonialists were doing a far > better job governing than either native regimes or any other colonial > power. The only folks who had problems in Rhodesia were terrorists. Make > no mistake minority rule is wrong, but it's stupid to turn governments > over to folks from tribal cultures untrained to govern. You'll have noticed my view of the current Zimbabwe regime - but I do still consider that the Smith government had much responsibility for the present state of affairs. What they did then was wrong; what they allowed to develop was wronger. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing "John Cartmell" wrote in message > In article hippo wrote: >> Yup, and IMO you maligned-by-the-Guardian colonialists were doing a far >> better job governing than either native regimes or any other colonial [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > develop > was wronger. Smith said at the time that the majority blacks were not ready for the responsibilities of government. He was right. What should have been done was a gradual program of introducing democracy on the village and local levels, a degree of power sharing to include elected advisory boards on all levels of government, parallel government jobs, and the development of individual natives who did well in secondary schooling for advanced work, and perhaps even education abroad in law and government. Rhodesia already had the highest level of black literacy in all of Africa which is a good starting point. Now it doesn't and what was unfair minority rule is now majority oppression, dictatorship, and a ruined economy with little hope for the future for anyone black or white. Idealism is fine if applied as a long term goal. Revolution and too rapid change is stupid and it always has been because it does not consider the human ability to adjust. I will admit that the older I get the harder it is to adjust to changes even to something as simple as mechanical appliances like this little black machine I'm typing on. -the Troll > "John Cartmell" wrote in message > > In article hippo wrote: > >> Yup, and IMO you maligned-by-the-Guardian colonialists were doing a far > >> better job governing than either native regimes or any other colonial [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > present state of affairs. What they did then was wrong; what they allowed > > to develop was wronger. > Smith said at the time that the majority blacks were not ready for the > responsibilities of government. He was right. Possibly true; but neither were Smith & cronies. > What should have been done was a gradual program of introducing democracy > on the village and local levels, a degree of power sharing to include > elected advisory boards on all levels of government, parallel government > jobs, and the development of individual natives who did well in secondary > schooling for advanced work, and perhaps even education abroad in law and > government. Yes! > Rhodesia already had the highest level of black literacy in all of Africa > which is a good starting point. Now it doesn't and what was unfair minority > rule is now majority oppression, dictatorship, and a ruined economy with > little hope for the future for anyone black or white. Idealism is fine if > applied as a long term goal. Movement in the right direction is essential. > Revolution and too rapid change is stupid and it always has been because it > does not consider the human ability to adjust. It is stupid - but sometimes people see no alternative. Change is dangerous (cf France late 18th Century & Russia early 20th Century) but no change is even more dangerous. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing "John Cartmell" wrote in message > In article hippo wrote: >> > You'll have noticed my view of the current Zimbabwe regime - but I do >> > still consider that the Smith government had much responsibility for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Smith said at the time that the majority blacks were not ready for the >> responsibilities of government. He was right. > Possibly true; but neither were Smith & cronies. Yup. >> What should have been done was a gradual program of introducing democracy >> on the village and local levels, a degree of power sharing to include >> elected advisory boards on all levels of government, parallel government >> jobs, and the development of individual natives who did well in secondary >> schooling for advanced work, and perhaps even education abroad in law and >> government. > Yes! The success of British colonial rule in India was the trained native bureaucracy and legal system it left behind which continues to function today, same as Hong Kong. The problem with that in Rhodesia is the Smith Government wasn't given the time or permitted the circumstances. It's hard to reform government in the face of foreign supported terrorism and UN sponsored economic pressures. It's also counter indicative to the level of trust needed from both sides. The problem with the Smith Government was it never really changed its mindset from 'we can hold on' to 'majority rule is inevitable, we must prepare for it'. I can speak to that personally having just gone through the agony, expense, and frustration of admitting women to my old school under court order. Deep down I knew we couldn't prevail, right or wrong, but couldn't make myself accept it. Many other alums have never accepted it and subsequently walked away in disgust. It is the 'bitter pill' reaction of human beings everywhere. >> Rhodesia already had the highest level of black literacy in all of Africa >> which is a good starting point. Now it doesn't and what was unfair >> minority >> rule is now majority oppression, dictatorship, and a ruined economy with >> little hope for the future for anyone black or white. Idealism is fine if >> applied as a long term goal. > Movement in the right direction is essential. No doubt, but first you have to change the mindset of those with the power to do something about it. >> Revolution and too rapid change is stupid and it always has been because >> it >> does not consider the human ability to adjust. > It is stupid - but sometimes people see no alternative. Change is > dangerous > (cf France late 18th Century & Russia early 20th Century) but no change is > even more dangerous. Not always. Russia, for example, would be much further along if the Czars had stayed in power and at a far lower cost in human lives and misery. Progress is always better in a gradual straight line without the dislocation caused by dips, reverses, and too rapid change. Somewhere along the line we, as a cutlture, are going to see the light and learn the lesson that social progress can't be plugged like a bottle and too rapid change just generates foot dragging and resistence, neither of which is good. -the Troll > Dear Marge, > An article in the UK's Guardian [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Confused of Barking I'm with you, but I ain't confused. Brit Emp history is one of my main enjoyments - and I was even involved in the Empire myself before the Winds of Change. Colonisation happened, for better or for worse. And all other nations' colonialism was worse than the Brits, overall. The difference between the Brits and the Japs/Nazis - and, in the colonies, the Belgians especially, was the intentional use of terror & often mass murder. Of course the stories ain't all good, but to ignore that the Empire was there (as is the case in most UK schools these days) or to apologise for all (as is the case in the remainder of most other UK schools) is stupid. See the website for the British Empire & Commonwealth Museum in Bristol, which usually gets all into perspective. Surreyman |
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