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History Forum / General / British History / March 2006Brit Const
I once met a Scot in Virginy, Who said all English were ninny's an dat Thatcher de Bunion violated de Union by taxen unequal number da penny's. or if you prefer. I once had a conversation with a man of Scottish birth. Although we had this conversation in Virginia, he brough up the subject of British politics, exhibiting a disdain for the English. He alleged that the British Government in passing a tax with a different rate of tax in Scotland than in England, had breached the Act of Union, and that Scotland was thus independent. This occured while Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. My first thought was that this is silly because parliament, which represents Scotland as well as England, is free to change any law it wishes, and if it contravenes previous constitutional arrangements, well then the law is the new arrangement. However, if a condition of the Union was violated, does this not abrigated the agreement to Unify and thus present a arrangement that parliament is not free to change? If so, and if the arrangement needed to be changed, how could one legitimately do so? > I once met a Scot in Virginy, > Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > and if the arrangement needed to be changed, how could one legitimately > do so? Poll tax. Contrary to urban myth it was not unpopular in Scotland "This proposal was contained in the Conservative Manifesto for the 1987 General Election. The legislation introducing the Community Charge was passed in 1988 and the new tax replaced the rates in Scotland from the start of the 1989/90 financial year and in England and Wales from the start of the 1990/91 financial year. Additionally the uniform business rate, levied by local government at a rate set by central government and then apportioned between local authorities in proportion to their population, was introduced. The tax was not implemented in Northern Ireland, which continued, as it still does, to levy the rating system, despite some unionists calling for the province to have the same taxation system as the rest of the United Kingdom. That the tax was introduced in Scotland a year before England and Wales is often described as causing the death of the Tories in Scotland, and cementing their image as an English party. However, in 1992 the Tory vote increased in Scotland compared to 1987 (before the introduction of the poll tax), and it was not until 1997 that they were wiped out completely." Jamie >> I once met a Scot in Virginy, >> Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Jamie Please indicate the souce of your quote. Thanks  SignatureThur >>> I once met a Scot in Virginy, >>> Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Please indicate the souce of your quote. > Thanks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax Jamie >>>> I once met a Scot in Virginy, >>>> Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Jamie Thanks again. I refer to the part describing the performance of the Tory vote prior to the Poll tax and afterwards in 1992. What has been omitted is that Thatcher's reign ended 28-11-90. It was she who made the Poll Tax her own, and she who the Scots despised so much. Given a new PM, and one unlike Thatcher in almost every way, and benefitting from the battle he had with Thatcher and her Old Guard, his more vulnerable image in Scotland may well have brought some votes back. This additional information would have blurred the point Wikpedia were making, though. SignatureThur >>>>> I once met a Scot in Virginy, >>>>> Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > This additional information would have blurred the point > Wikpedia were making, though. That is your version, but the Scots made no fuss about the poll tax, it wasn't until it was introduced into England that rent a mob socialists started breaking the place up. Major was elected because of Maggie, and the present plight of the Tory party is down to him and his disastrous decision to join the ERM, wiping them out in Scotland. The poll tax was not as unpopular as you seem to think, I'm pretty certain you are not old enough to have ever paid the old rates, but presumably you do now? Or explain why you think you should vote on something you don't have to pay for? Tell us what you pay now Thur? mine have just come in at £2,000. My rates in 1989 were £1,600 but the family poll tax for the following year was £700. You will note that "the pension thief" did not repeat his election £200 rates bribe to the pensioners in his latest budget, perhaps the Tories should use the same tactics as the socialists. Jamie >>>>>> I once met a Scot in Virginy, >>>>>> Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Jamie Funny what we chose to remember. I remember the obviously well heeled marching with the rest in Cheltenham and other places of assumed Tory faith. I remember it because I felt it represented what my analysis of the Tory plight had become. Keep on remembering those rent-a-mob socialists, it may sooth as you hold on to the images, but it will deceive you as it did Thatcher. I am no (or is it nay?) a Scot so I will not try to debate the subject further. Trying to deduce the character or personal details of anyone will not further any advance in understanding. I pay my dues and have always had the good fortune to be able to do so. I do not consider the deduction of taxes as theft, although I feel that all three parties refuse to debate the issue of how much of our GDP should be raked in by the Treasury. Try asking your Beloved Leader for a figure. I dont mind if you get him to give a ball park figure, just get him to say something concrete, it might jerk the Chancellor into talking about it. >>>>>>> I once met a Scot in Virginy, >>>>>>> Who said all English were ninny's [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > him to say something concrete, it might jerk the > Chancellor into talking about it. Presumably you mean Tory Blair? Not my leader son. Jamie was thier any basis for saying the poll tax violated the terms of the Act of Union? > was thier any basis for saying the poll tax violated the terms of the > Act of Union? The Act of Union does say that all Excises must be the same throughout Great Britain but it's a three hundred years old piece of legislation much of which is irrelevant now. The powers of Scotland's Royal Burghs were protected by the union but are no longer in place. So the principle that nothing in the union can be altered was already long gone. The devolution settlement itself allows Holyrood to alter income tax by 3% either way. I don't imagine that too many people would moan about the Act of Union being violated if legislation came about allowing Prince William to marry a Catholic! So I don't think in it itself changing things violates the Act of Union. What Thatcher did do though was violate the spirit of union. For much of the earlier period Scotland basically governed herself as far as internal matters were concerned. When a more centralised British state emerged Scottish internal opinion was always largely respected and taken account of. With Thatcher the Scottish Secretary stopped being perceived as Scotland's man in government, and became the Cabinet's man in Scotland. cheers Allan > >> I refer to the part describing the performance of the Tory vote > >> prior to the Poll tax and afterwards in 1992. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > I am no (or is it nay?) a Scot so I will not try to debate > the subject further. You are pretty much right in that Thatcher was, and basically still is, a figure of derision in Scotland more than anything else. Anyway claiming otherwise simply has no grounding in Scottish politics.It's true that the expected collapse in Tory support didn't happen in 1992. However both the 87 and 92 figures were still about the lowest number of votes they'd ever pulled. The exception being the second 1974 election when the SNP's massive success probably skewed things a bit. The Tory vote gradually dropped in Scotland through the Thatcher years. In the period after the 87 election both she and the poll tax were massively unpopular. I think it's certain that one of the main reasons their vote didn't drop further in the 92 poll was that she was ousted and we had a new PM who had campaigned on the basis that the tax would be scrapped and by the time the elections came round the process of abolishing it had started. Despite the impression sometimes given Scotland did have a large block of natural Tory voters. In the 1950s they gained over 50% of the total votes which is something Labour has never achieved. Even in early 1974 they were only several points behind Labour. This reduced core support basically gave Major the benefit of the doubt. The Torys then isolated themselves further not only with the UK wide events but also by foisting the right winger Michael Forsyth on us and by stubbornly remaining the only significant institution opposed to devolution. It can be strongly argued though that but for Thatcher's actions and attitude, the second push for devolution may never have come about with such strength. cheers Allan |
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