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History Forum / General / British History / July 2008The Celts and Britain
The Britsh people in my opinion achieved a huge amount in their rise to dominance adding to many countries legal systems , cultures and more. Granted many mistakes were made but on the whole it was a civilising factor. I often wonder though with the lastest research into DNA showing that the British people are still very much the same whether Scottish, or Welsh or any of the other Celtic peoples showing that the Norman, and Germanic invasions only supplanted the language and not so much the poeple. Would the Britain of today and the Britain of the 18th and 19th century exist today if the Celtic People didn't hold on dispite the odds agianst them?? More on the celts I found here http://home.exetel.com.au/manxman/History%20of%20the%20Celts I vibrant people no doubt. > The Britsh people in my opinion achieved a huge amount in their rise to > dominance adding to many countries legal systems , cultures and more. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Germanic invasions only supplanted the language and not so much the > poeple. How do you account for the DNA of at least 80% being Germanic? http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/presentations/ASdemo/AS-26-11-03b.html > Would the Britain of today and the Britain of the 18th and 19th century > exist today if the Celtic People didn't hold on dispite the odds [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I vibrant people no doubt. I would think the DNA of the Isle of Man would show heavy Norse influence, the Tynwald is a Norse institution. http://www.tynwald.org.im/ TYNWALD the 1000 Year Parliament "Our little nation is the only Norse nation now on earth that can shake hands with the days of the Sagas, and the Sea-Kings. Then let him who will laugh at our primitive ceremonial. It is the badge of our ancient liberty, and we need not envy the man who can look on it unmoved". "The observer at St. John's on 5th July, the Manx National Day, watches a ceremony which has continued unchanged, except in detail, for more than 1,000 years. The annual outdoor sittings of Tynwald, the Manx Parliament, date back to the Viking settlements which began in the eighth century of the first millennium AD. No other parliament in the world has such a long unbroken record." Jamie The latest DNA testing from Britain shows a remarkable similarity of the DNA between all persons in the British Isles and that this was not closely related to the Germanic Peoples, nor any evidence of Mediterranean Influence (Roman). The Saxons etc invaded conquered and supplanted ideas and traditions but were never of a number to supplant the native population. The Isle of Man as mentioned does have a heavy norse influence in Law and institutions but once again a similar situation to the rest of Britain, new ideas etc. The majority of surnames on the Isle of Man are still of Celtic origin as is the native language Manx, My own surname is an example being KNEEN which is of Manx Celtic derived from Mac Cianain. Norse was not spoken as a language of everyday use by the majority of people. And though Tynwald is a Norse (viking) invention the language of law and legislation is Manx, a Celtic Language. The institution of the Isle came from the period of the Kingdom of Man and the Isles under Somerled. Somerled was the son of a norse princess and native Celtic Lord of South West Scotland. He gave rise to the Clan McDonald. A modern example of such supplanting could be Singapore which has English as one of the official languages and is widely used but the people are not English. > The latest DNA testing from Britain shows a remarkable similarity of > the DNA between all persons in the British Isles and that this was not [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > English as one of the official languages and is widely used but the > people are not English. the general looting and raping of the days of yore has seen to ot that we are all mongrels. > The latest DNA testing from Britain shows a remarkable similarity of > the DNA between all persons in the British Isles and that this was not > closely related to the Germanic Peoples, nor any evidence of > Mediterranean Influence (Roman). The Saxons etc invaded conquered and > supplanted ideas and traditions but were never of a number to supplant > the native population. The latest DNA testing says the numbers were between 50 and 100% change in England, the closest relatives being Friesland. Strangely all the archaeology and contemporary history point to this scale of migration and Frisian is the closest language to English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friesland So this native P or Q speaking population were so in awe of a handful of Germanic pop stars that they changed language completly :-)) Jamie > > The latest DNA testing from Britain shows a remarkable similarity of > > the DNA between all persons in the British Isles and that this was not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So this native P or Q speaking population were so in awe of a handful of > Germanic pop stars that they changed language completly :-)) I only know a bit of Frisian from a modern context via Dutch friends. It is indeed closer to English than Dutch itself, for instance. A favourite joke was that the Frisian order to cavalry to mount sounded like 'Scramble up the beasties'! Surreyman snip > The Isle of Man as mentioned does have a heavy norse influence in Law > and institutions but once again a similar situation to the rest of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Somerled. Somerled was the son of a norse princess and native Celtic > Lord of South West Scotland. He gave rise to the Clan McDonald. Gall Gaedhil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall-Gaidheal You will find that Man had been under the control of the Dublin Vikings or the powerful Norse earls of Orkney and of course Cnut, long before Somerled who is very likely of Gall Gaedhil origin. > A modern example of such supplanting could be Singapore which has > English as one of the official languages and is widely used but the > people are not English. A lot of people speak English as a second language as once they did Latin. Jamie "manxman" wrote in message > Norse was not spoken as a language of everyday use by the majority of > people. And though Tynwald is a Norse (viking) invention the language [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > English as one of the official languages and is widely used but the > people are not English. Exactly, and India where English is an official language and far more popular than Hindi in that role. We forget the capacity of a ruling stratum, which can be very small in numbers, to change the culture and language of the indigenous population. Modern research indicates that Aryan invaders of Europe were comparatively few in numbers but changed the culture and language almost completely, leaving today only Basque, and probably Sami, remnants of pre-invasion languages. Ethnic Continental German invaders of Britain probably numbered less than 50,000 and included some, but by no means the majority, of the Angles, Frisians, Saxons, and Jutes. I think the gross number was less than 30,000, most of them men. -the Troll > Modern research indicates that Aryan invaders of Europe were comparatively > few in numbers but changed the culture and language almost completely, > leaving today only Basque, and probably Sami, remnants of pre-invasion > languages. the Troll The interesting questions about languages for me are:- Why was the Brittonic langauge so completely extinguished in England, (being no remnants in English) and how did English develop and survive for so long without the printing press or any period where it became the first language, - until about the 15th Century? Why are so many words of English shared with Friesian, considering that any influence must have disappeared early in the Saxon invasions? Maybe Friesian is one of those languages which has never developed and hybridised the way English has? I always try to imagine the fate of the native American Indian cultures and languages and try to compare them if possible with the Celtic experience, but I think that fails when looking closer. I suspect that the spread of language type accross Europe was parallel to the spread of conquest, trade, technological advance and occupation.  SignatureThur "Thur" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Modern research indicates that Aryan invaders of Europe were >> comparatively few in numbers but changed the culture and language almost [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Europe was parallel to the spread of conquest, trade, > technological advance and occupation. Yes, it's a fascinating subject. Friesian is a West Germanic (low German) dialect. Old Friesian was once spoken along the entire North Sea Continental coast line. The Angles, Saxons, island Frieslanders, and Jutes would have spoken a similar dialect in the 4th and 5th centuries CE. Languages in those days were not as often passed on by commerce as conquest. Latin speakers were so few in ancient Britain that it never caught on as the primary language. French was the same. Those who spoke both tended to remain separate as a class or caste and didn't much mix with the native speakers. The Germanic invaders were different. They were small farmers, just like most of the Romano-Britons, and absorbed them by marriage, taking them into their armies, and possibly, for a time, enslaving them (in the German sense which meant they worked beside their masters and lived beside them with their own families as near-equals). Ancient Germans were not ethnocentric and absorbed many other peoples in their conquests from the first century BCE including the Celtic tribes which originally inhabited what is now Germany. The key word here is absorption rather than mere conquest. -the Troll > Why was the Brittonic langauge so completely > extinguished in England, There is no evidence of how widely it was being spoken at the time the Anglo-Saxons arrived. After all Britain had been under Roman occupation for roughly 400 years. If the majority of Britons were Latin speakers that would explain a lot. Ken Young <kenney@cix wrote in message > In article (Thur) wrote: >> Why was the Brittonic langauge so completely >> extinguished in England, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Roman occupation for roughly 400 years. If the majority of > Britons were Latin speakers that would explain a lot. There were too many areas outside direct Roman influence for Latin to have become the common language in Britain. It certainly didn't in Scotland, Wales, or Cornwall, and Glamorgan, at least, had been heavily garrisoned from end to end from the first century. The fact it was the primary written language for monuments and the like doesn't change that. Folks in a position to live in the cities and put up monuments were from the class where speaking Latin was likely a status symbol, administrators, or soldiers. The Britons who escaped Britannia for Brittany didn't take Latin with them. -the Troll > <kenney@cix wrote in message > > In article (Thur) wrote: > >> Why was the Brittonic langauge so completely > >> extinguished in England, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Roman occupation for roughly 400 years. If the majority of > > Britons were Latin speakers that would explain a lot. > There were too many areas outside direct Roman influence for Latin to have > become the common language in Britain. It certainly didn't in Scotland, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > speaking Latin was likely a status symbol, administrators, or soldiers. The > Britons who escaped Britannia for Brittany didn't take Latin with them. What makes you think there was a 'common language'? Pre-radio it was tricky for people from Blackburn and Liverpool to understand one another - never mind Keswick, Gateshead, Bristol and London. And that's in a literate culture with easy transport by train. Think yourself back to a pre-literate culture with no easy transport and a time period that separates us from Shakespere. 'Common language'? I don't believe even Latin would have been common over that area and time. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing > > <kenney@cix wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > language'? I don't believe even Latin would have been common over that area > and time. And even spoken Latin changed and evolved all over the place, of course, until it disappeared up its own ......... outside of the Church, and relatively quickly, in fact. Surreyman "John Cartmell" wrote in message > In article hippo wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > area > and time. Bad choice of terms, I should have written 'language of the common folks'. Of course you are right. The Parisi, Belgae, and other tribes were a late migration from Gaul with others from many earlier waves, so there must have been a wide difference in local dialects. -the Troll > "manxman" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Angles, Frisians, Saxons, and Jutes. I think the gross number was less > than 30,000, most of them men. -the Troll There are many Indian / Pakistanis who live in Britain today hippo who can't speak a word of English. Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> "manxman" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > There are many Indian / Pakistanis who live in Britain today hippo who > can't speak a word of English. Not surprising, but in India it is the language of government, manufacturing, banking, and trade not to mention the tourist industry. It's the only language spoken from one end the place to the other, even for natives, and one reason they can locate call centers there. -the Troll Troll is correct. There was a recent program on the Australian Broadcasting Commission TV (ABC) which discussed Indian call centers. That stated that India had over 100,000,000 well educated English speaking persons in the country. This was being used as resource in India from Computer programing to Call Centers. Apparantly they train the Indian English speakers to speak with a local accent for the country the calls come from and use that countries slang terms. I must say I don't think that has worked because here in Australia you can always tell when you get sent to a call center and can never understand what they say. But hey they speak English of sorts, I can't speak a word of Hindi so they are one up on me. > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > the only language spoken from one end the place to the other, even for > natives, and one reason they can locate call centers there. -the Troll Have you ever received a call from an Indian call centre! :-)) Surreyman > Have you ever received a call from an Indian call centre! :-)) From someone 'called' Kevin or Sheila! SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing "a.spencer3" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> > Have you ever received a call from an Indian call centre! :-)) Chuckle, yup, and it's all you guys fault. It was only made possible because jungle loving (as opposed to desert loving) Englishmen liked to shoot tigers from on top of elephants. -the Troll > Ethnic Continental German invaders of Britain probably numbered > less than 50,000 and included some, but by no means the majority, of the > Angles, Frisians, Saxons, and Jutes. I think the gross number was less than > 30,000, most of them men. -the Troll Do we know why it was the Angles who gave their name to the country of England and language of English? "Briton" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> Ethnic Continental German invaders of Britain probably numbered >> less than 50,000 and included some, but by no means the majority, of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Do we know why it was the Angles who gave their name to the country of > England and language of English? Most of the invaders spoke a language similar to the Angles. England, of course, comes from Angle+land., but why the whole was given the name of the of just East Anglia and Mercia was probably luck but may have had something to do with the international standing of Offa. -the Troll > "Briton" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > of just East Anglia and Mercia was probably luck but may have had something > to do with the international standing of Offa. -the Troll May be wrong but I thought that Bede (from Anglian Northumbria) was one of the first, if not the first, at least as far as we know, to use the term English. cheers Allan "allan connochie" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> "Briton" wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the first, if not the first, at least as far as we know, to use the term > English. Could easily be true, at least in writing. Anglia must have been called alternatively Angleland since nearly the beginning. -the Troll > "Briton" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > have had something to do with the international standing of Offa. > -the Troll Ok...thanks. > "Briton" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the of just East Anglia and Mercia was probably luck but may have had > something to do with the international standing of Offa. -the Troll One of those ethnic groups had to be the more numerous, or the more successful at conquest, or whatever it takes to get people naming the whole people after one of them. Perhaps one of the groups was first to embrace writing. Writing that is, in their own dialect, rather than the Latin of Augustine and the rest. What really must have fixed the language was when rights to property were written down. From the on it was probably difficult to have them written in a dialect which was only recognised in one area, and not by the power brokers. Off this topic slightly, it is my guess that the reason some Brittonic placenames and river names survived is that they were used as boundary markers first, and then included and used in English documents, sealing them into the language. SignatureThur "Thur" wrote in message \ > "hippo" wrote in message >> "Briton" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> the of just East Anglia and Mercia was probably luck but may have had >> something to do with the international standing of Offa. -the Troll > One of those ethnic groups had to be the more numerous, > or the more successful at conquest, or whatever it takes to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > were used as boundary markers first, and then included > and used in English documents, sealing them into the language. One would, at first, suspect the Jutes in Kent as the most important, since Kent was closer to the continent so that most trade must have passed through it. It does seem to have been richer earlier on from the quality of the grave goods found, and had better connections with the outside world at a time when ships had neither keel nor sails. When European explorers came to a river or bay, they often asked a native guide what it was called, and then wrote it down approximating the sound. The result was often monstrosities like Peking for Beijing and no one today knows where 'Hong Kong' came from. It isn't English and it wasn't what the Chinese called the place either. Now, of course, they do. The US and New Zealand aren't too different with a mix of native and English named places and geographic features. We have the Stono, Wando, Sulkahachee, and Cumbahee, Ashley and Cooper Rivers. -the Troll >When European explorers came to a river or bay, they often asked a native >guide what it was called, and then wrote it down approximating the sound. >The result was often monstrosities like Peking for Beijing and no one today >knows where 'Hong Kong' came from. It isn't English and it wasn't what the >Chinese called the place either. Now, of course, they do. The Romans must have done the same - the Roman camp at York was, by any interpretation I've seen, a green-field development, yet its name Eboracum is reckoned to have Celtic derivation. SignatureIan > >When European explorers came to a river or bay, they often asked a native > >guide what it was called, and then wrote it down approximating the sound. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Eboracum is reckoned to have Celtic derivation. > -- Yep, the Romans just Latinised the local name which had various bases similar to 'Ebor'. That was supposedly from a personal name, itself derived from 'yew tree' - or perhaps 'boar'! Iorvik was the Scandinavian version of the same name, which evolved into Iork etc. Surreyman. "Ian Dalziel" wrote in message >>When European explorers came to a river or bay, they often asked a native >>guide what it was called, and then wrote it down approximating the sound. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > any interpretation I've seen, a green-field development, yet its name > Eboracum is reckoned to have Celtic derivation. Legionary bases were almost always green-field constructs. They were vast, needed a lot of wood for their construction and from which to make charcoal, and required a cleared zone outside their walls for defensive reasons. Some, as you say, were named by latinizing the native term for the place or tribal area in which the base was built. Others, like Bona (Bonn) were straight Latin. -the Troll In article <fZljk.99240$kx.34475@pd7urf3no>, "Kurt Knoll" <kknoll3@yahoo.com> wrote: > It was the Jews who did call for an boycott of German bossiness in newyork > and London. Warum betraf dieser Boykott die Juden in Norwegen, Griechenland und Litauen? Halte ich Kurt Knoll für einen blöden Hund, habe ich die Berechtigung alle den Namen Kurt tragenden Leute in der ganzen Welt umzubringen? > The details of why and how could all be read in German news > papers from 1918 till 1939. Während dieser Zeitlang ist Deutschland wortgetreu auferstanden aus Ruinen. Der Boykott hat diese Entwicklung kaum gehindert. > Unfortunally this news paper articles about it > are forbidden to be re printed in German news papers of today. Mensch, wie du spinnst! Man braucht solche Artikel nicht wiederzudrücken, weil sie jedem sie zu lesen wollenden in jeder deutschen Universitätsbibliothek zur Verfügung stehen. > Kurt Knoll. <ausgescnitten> Mit deutschem Gruß, Eugene Holman |
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