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History Forum / General / British History / May 2006Isle of Man, Jersey
Can the U.K Parliament Legislate for the Isle of Man and the Channel isles? Are the legally parts of the U.K. or seperate countries just with the same monarch? Are the Channel Isles one or several legal units? > Can the U.K Parliament Legislate for the Isle of Man and the Channel > isles? Are the legally parts of the U.K. or seperate countries just > with the same monarch? Are the Channel Isles one or several legal units? They are Crown Dependencies and as such are not actually part of the UK. The Isle of Man describes its status as an "internally self governing dependent territory of the crown" and as having a "high degree of autonomy". UK legislature does not relate to Man unless it specifically says so and I don't think that happens very often. The UK acts for the island in external affairs and this in itself can affect internal matters - the obvious one being the forcing of the island to stop birching people. The Channel Islands are not one legal unit and have a similar semi-independent position as the Isle of Man. I think :-) Allan > They are Crown Dependencies and as such are not actually part of the UK. The > Isle of Man describes its status as an "internally self governing dependent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > affairs and this in itself can affect internal matters - the obvious one > being the forcing of the island to stop birching people. It was pressure from the EU that force the ending of birching. Since then crime in Man has increased. > The Channel Islands are not one legal unit and have a similar > semi-independent position as the Isle of Man. I think :-) Yes, the Channel Islands do have a similar status as Man. Neither Man nor the Channel Islands are part of the EU either. Both are tax havens and both are pretty much closed to "comeovers" as well. > > They are Crown Dependencies and as such are not actually part of the UK. The > > Isle of Man describes its status as an "internally self governing dependent [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It was pressure from the EU that force the ending of birching. Since > then crime in Man has increased. That is true but it was a British judge who made the ruling. It was British rulings brought about by pressure from the EU. Allan > That is true but it was a British judge who made the ruling. It was British > rulings brought about by pressure from the EU. The British judge should have told the EU to "butt out", IMO. > > > They are Crown Dependencies and as such are not actually part of the UK. > The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > That is true but it was a British judge who made the ruling. It was British > rulings brought about by pressure from the EU. In truth whether the UK was a member of the EU or not, and whether the EU objected or not, probably made little difference overall. The UK forced the Manx to stop because the UK had signed up to the European Convention of Human Rights in the 1950s. As long as the Manx were only basically birching their own children (almost exclusively boys) no-one much bothered about it. Once they started birching Scottish holiday makers the writing was on the wall as people started to seriously challenge their sentences. Previously there was not even a right of appeal. The case which was sent to the European Court involved an Irishman. Allan > Neither Man nor the Channel Islands are part of the EU either. Both > are tax havens and both are pretty much closed to "comeovers" as well. There are no residency restrictions in the Isle of Man for UK citizens but there may be employment bars - unless you happen to have a skill they want.  SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing > There are no residency restrictions in the Isle of Man for UK citizens but > there may be employment bars - unless you happen to have a skill they want. I'd heard that there are now. It's somewhere I'd love to live. > > There are no residency restrictions in the Isle of Man for UK citizens > > but there may be employment bars - unless you happen to have a skill they > > want. > I'd heard that there are now. It's somewhere I'd love to live. My information is from a month ago. ;-) SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing > > > There are no residency restrictions in the Isle of Man for UK citizens > > > but there may be employment bars - unless you happen to have a skill they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > My information is from a month ago. ;-) There are no residency restrictions for British or Irish people. As you say there are only certain restrictions on employment. Any of us could for instance retire there. The only problem is I'd still receive the same crappy Border ITV station :-) Allan > My information is from a month ago. ;-) That's brilliant news :)) I'm glad they haven't slapped on any restrictions. >> There are no residency restrictions in the Isle of Man for UK citizens >> but >> there may be employment bars - unless you happen to have a skill they >> want. > > I'd heard that there are now. It's somewhere I'd love to live. Great for TT fans. SignatureThur > >> There are no residency restrictions in the Isle of Man for UK citizens > >> but > >> there may be employment bars - unless you happen to have a skill they > >> want. > > > > I'd heard that there are now. It's somewhere I'd love to live. > Great for TT fans. Great for those who want easily accessible quiet countryside and coastline. I've never found anywhere better. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822 Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing >> Great for TT fans. That's the *worst* time of year :)) Don't mind the cars though, tis just the bikes I don't like. > Great for those who want easily accessible quiet countryside and coastline. > I've never found anywhere better. I agree. For such a small island, it's got everything. My son keeps asking when we're going back again - and that from him is the ultimate endorsement of a place :)) >> They are Crown Dependencies and as such are not actually part of the UK. >> The [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Neither Man nor the Channel Islands are part of the EU either. Both > are tax havens and both are pretty much closed to "comeovers" as well. > It was pressure from the EU that force the ending of birching. Since > then crime in Man has increased. Are you making a connection between to two? SignatureThur > Are you making a connection between to two? Just stating a fact. I'll let you draw your own conclusion. >> Are you making a connection between to two? > > Just stating a fact. I'll let you draw your own conclusion. Ok, but I'll have to regard more than just two pieces of data. I don't propose to start a new thread here, but since this is a history group, it is common to use every relevant piece of data, including historical data, before attempting to make a conclusion. That is why I posed my question. Cheers, SignatureThur > Ok, but I'll have to regard more than just two pieces of > data. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to make a conclusion. > That is why I posed my question. Personally I think there is a connection. Man was virtually crime free but with the cessation of birching there were more crimes being reported, mostly petty but that's where it starts. I agree with the Manx view that nipping it in the bud is the right way. OK, I know a lot of people don't agree, but they are as entitled to their point of view as I am. Agreement isn't necessary :)) To get a year on year comparison between the years before birching was stopped and after, you'd have to contact the Manx Police. "allan connochie" wrote in message > "Snodgras Riklesnort" wrote in message >> Can the U.K Parliament Legislate for the Isle of Man and the Channel >> isles? Are the legally parts of the U.K. or seperate countries just [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The Channel Islands are not one legal unit and have a similar > semi-independent position as the Isle of Man. I think :-) As feudal dependencies, couldn't the Monarch put Man and the Channel Islands under the authority of Parliament or any part(s) of the UK administrative apparatus he/she wished? -the Troll > "allan connochie" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > under the authority of Parliament or any part(s) of the UK administrative > apparatus he/she wished? -the Troll I'm not sure to tell you the truth. The monarch has various 'theoretical' powers. Certainly the Manx government's own website confirms that they have a high level of autonomy from the UK but they don't claim to be completely independent. Allan "allan connochie" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> As feudal dependencies, couldn't the Monarch put Man and the Channel > Islands [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a high level of autonomy from the UK but they don't claim to be completely > independent. I think I'm right about it. The theoretical powers of the Monarch refers to the governing of the UK. As feudal overlords of Man and the Channel Islands, their power isn't theoretical. If I'm not mistaken it's only the Monarch that connects Man and the CI to the UK. -the Troll > ... As feudal overlords of Man and the Channel Islands, their power isn't > theoretical. ... Under the Treaty of Paris of 1259, the Queen governs the Channel Islands as Queen, not as The Duke of Normandy. Colin Bignell "nightjar .uk.com>" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> ... As feudal overlords of Man and the Channel Islands, their power isn't >> theoretical. ... > > Under the Treaty of Paris of 1259, the Queen governs the Channel Islands > as Queen, not as The Duke of Normandy. Makes good practical sense. The question is is there a layer of authority between the feudal lords of the Channel Island and the government of Man and the British Monarch? I don't think there is and any oversight by British government agencies must be under the authority of the Queen. By itself, I don't think Parliament has any authority. It makes an interesting equation. -the Troll > "allan connochie" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > their power isn't theoretical. If I'm not mistaken it's only the Monarch > that connects Man and the CI to the UK. -the Troll I think all powers of the monarchy are to an extent theoretical. They have various powers but haven't in truth got the real power to use them all willy nilly. There is more than the sovereign to connect the Isle of Man and the UK. Westminster has a degree of authority over the island and Manx people are not Manx Citizens. There is no such thing. They are all British Citizens and carry British Passports. Allan "allan connochie" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message >> >> As feudal dependencies, couldn't the Monarch put Man and the Channel >> > Islands [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Citizens > and carry British Passports. From earlier discussions on this group it seems more correct to say that the power of the Monarch is in abeyance by agreement with the Parliament. -the Troll So Guersey, Sark, and Jersey are all seperate entities? Are thier any other channel islands. > So Guersey, Sark, and Jersey are all seperate entities? Are thier any > other channel islands. Alderney is another one, plus there's another which is entirely in private hands. I think there are some more, smaller, ones. > > So Guersey, Sark, and Jersey are all seperate entities? Are thier any > > other channel islands. > > Alderney is another one, plus there's another which is entirely in > private hands. I think there are some more, smaller, ones. And, for the record, there are also some other Channel Islands owned by the French. Surreyman > So Guersey, Sark, and Jersey are all seperate entities? Are thier any > other channel islands. http://www.alderney.gov.gg/ http://www.herm-island.com/gettinghere/ The "Asterix ship" from Roman occupation is quite important archaeology http://www.islandlife.org/history.htm Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > "Snodgras Riklesnort" wrote in message >> So Guersey, Sark, and Jersey are all seperate entities? Are thier any >> other channel islands. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The "Asterix ship" from Roman occupation is quite important archaeology > http://www.islandlife.org/history.htm Thanks, Jamie. More detail here: http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/ter/grst/student%20papers/CLH292%20asterix.doc ....which puts the wreck in context and shows its relative importance in the progression of naval design. One unfortunate omission is that carvel (butted plank) construction was a Mediterranean idea and altogether different from the lapstrake construction used in the Baltic. The former is more rigid and evolves more easily to the construction of larger ships but the later permits hull movement which is much more seaworthy for smaller vessels (Viking era war and cargo ships). -the Troll > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > but the later permits hull movement which is much more seaworthy for > smaller vessels (Viking era war and cargo ships). -the Troll Clinker build you can use an axe, Carvel you need a saw. Did you notice the "brass bilge pump"? http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/ter/grst/Specific%20subjects/Mechanics/Mech anics.htm Hellenistic machines Ktesibios (fl 275-260 BC) reputedly invented the cylinder & plunger, the force pump ('Ktesibian pump'), a water organ, a new type of water clock, and other pneumatic & mechanical machines, including a compressed-air catapult. See Marsden GRA (1969) 41-2, Drachmann The Mechanical Technology of the Greeks and Romans p. 10 Ktesibian (force) pump is described by Vitruv. 10.7.1-3, and Heron Pneu. 27 (HOS 60-1, and 318-22). Applications in primary sources include fire-fighting (most), irrigation (Pliny NH), washing high ceilings (Isidore of Seville), and bilge pump (Paulinus). Applications in archaeological contexts incl. ships (bilge pump), wells (domestic water), mines (for drainage or 'fire-and-vinegar' mining technique), bath (emptying?), basement (remove water seepage?), coastal water-tank (emptying? filling? aeration?). Of pumps found by 1984, 8 were made of bronze and 13 of wood (Oleson). I think a large version of this type of pump was excavated in London recently. Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message >> "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Clinker build you can use an axe, Carvel you need a saw. Good point. > Did you notice the "brass bilge pump"? Yup. > http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/ter/grst/Specific%20subjects/Mechanics/Mech anics.htm > Hellenistic machines [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I think a large version of this type of pump was excavated in London > recently. Yup, doesn't surprise me. Even coasters built this side in the early eighteenth century had rudimentary bilge pumps built from banded wood staves like a barrel. The example I have seen had about a five inch bore and was worked from the upper deck by a single hand. -the Troll > So Guersey, Sark, and Jersey are all seperate entities? Are thier any > other channel islands. The Channel Islands (as far as the British Crown Dependencies go anyway) are divided into two political entities called Bailiwicks. The Bailiwick of Jersey consists of Jersey and various tiny uninhabited islands. The Bailiwick of Guernsey consists of Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, Herm and various other islands which have only several inhabitants. cheers Allan > Can the U.K Parliament Legislate for the Isle of Man and the Channel > isles? Are the legally parts of the U.K. or seperate countries just > with the same monarch? Are the Channel Isles one or several legal units? As they are Crown Dependencies, it is possible for Acts passed by the UK government to be imposed on the individual legislatures by an Order in Council. By convention, this is usually only done when the legislatures request it. The UK Government, on behalf of the Crown, administer defence, citizenship and diplomatic representation. The islands are not bound by treaties concluded by the UK, unless they request it. Hence, the Channel Islands are part of the Customs Territory of the EC, but they are not part of the EU and, although the islanders are all British Citizens, a small number are not EU citizens. To qualify as EU citizens they need to have a 'close connection' to Britain - parents or grandparents from the UK or having been resident in the UK at some time for at least five years. The States of Guernsey and The States of Jersey are independent Bailiwicks (i.e are administered by a Bailiff) while Sark and the States of Alderney have a system known as Chief Pleas. Colin Bignell >> Can the U.K Parliament Legislate for the Isle of Man and the Channel >> isles? Are the legally parts of the U.K. or seperate countries just [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Colin Bignell That's just what I said to the girl on the till at Tesco, when she refused to accept a Jersey 20p piece! ... > That's just what I said to the girl on the till at Tesco, when she refused > to accept a Jersey 20p piece! She can choose to refuse a mainland UK 20p piece if she wants. There is no way to compel anyone to accept a particular form of payment for any transaction, although, if you owe a debt and offer to pay the exact amount of the debt in legal tender, you can't later be sued for non-payment of the debt if that payment is refused. Colin Bignell |
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