Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
General TopicsAncient HistoryMedieval PeriodBritish HistoryWhat IfArchaeology
War History
War HistoryWorld War IIUS Civil War
HistoryKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

History Forum / General / British History / August 2006



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Does Harry Reid Favor Appeasement?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
D. Spencer Hines - 30 Aug 2006 22:41 GMT
Senator Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, is the leader of the Democrats in
the Senate.

DSH
------------------------------------

Does Reid Favor Appeasement?

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid yesterday lashed out at Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld:

 Secretary Rumsfeld's reckless comments show why America is not as safe as
it can or should be five years after 9/11. The Bush White House is more
interested in lashing out at its political enemies and distracting from its
failures than it is in winning the War on Terror and in bringing an end to
the war in Iraq.

 If there's one person who has failed to learn the lessons of history it's
Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld ignored military experts when he rushed to war
without enough troops, without sufficient body armor, and without a plan to
succeed. Under this Administration's watch, terror attacks have increased,
Iraq has fallen into civil war, and our military has been stretched thin.

 We have a choice to make today. Do we trust Secretary Rumsfeld to make the
right decisions to keep us safe after he has been so consistently wrong
since the start of the Iraq War? Or, do we change course in Iraq and put in
place new leadership that will put the safety of the American people ahead
of partisan games? For the sake of the safety of this country, it is time to
make a change.

The obvious point to make is that Reid is being partisan too, but it turns
out that isn't quite right. If you look at Rumsfeld's speech, it turns out
that the secretary isn't being partisan at all:

 In the decades before World War II, a great many argued that the fascist
threat was exaggerated--or that it was someone else's problem. Some nations
tried to negotiate a separate peace--even as the enemy made its deadly
ambitions crystal clear. It was, as Churchill observed, a bit like feeding a
crocodile, hoping it would eat you last.

 There was a strange innocence in views of the world. Someone recently
recalled one U.S. Senator's reaction in September 1939, upon hearing that
Hitler had invaded Poland to start World War II. He exclaimed: "Lord, if
only I could have talked with Hitler, all this might have been avoided."

 Think of that!

 I recount this history because once again we face the same kind of
challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of
fascism. Today, another enemy--a different kind of enemy--has also made
clear its intentions--in places like New York, Washington, D.C., Bali,
London, Madrid, and Moscow. But it is apparent that many have still not
learned history's lessons.

 We need to face the following questions:

   a.. With the growing lethality and availability of weapons, can we truly
afford to believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased?

   b.. Can we really continue to think that free countries can negotiate a
separate peace with terrorists?

   c.. Can we truly afford the luxury of pretending that the threats today
are simply "law enforcement" problems, rather than fundamentally different
threats, requiring fundamentally different approaches?

   d.. And can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that
America--not the enemy--is the real source of the world's trouble?
 These are central questions of our time. And we must face them. . . .

 But this is still--even in 2006--not well recognized or fully understood.
It seems that in some quarters there is more of a focus on dividing our
country, than acting with unity against the gathering threats.

 We find ourselves in a strange time:

   a.. When a database search of America's leading newspapers turns up 10
times as many mentions of one of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib who were
punished for misconduct, than mentions of Sergeant First Class Paul Ray
Smith, the first recipient of the Medal of Honor in the Global War on
Terror;

   b.. When a senior editor at Newsweek disparagingly refers to the brave
volunteers in our Armed Forces as a "mercenary army";

   c.. When the former head of CNN accuses the American military of
deliberately targeting journalists and the former CNN Baghdad bureau chief
admits he concealed reports of Saddam Hussein's crimes when he was in power
so CNN could stay in Iraq[*]; and

   d.. It is a time when Amnesty International disgracefully refers to the
military facility at Guantanamo Bay, which holds terrorists who have vowed
to kill Americans and which is arguably the best run and most scrutinized
detention facility in the history of warfare, as "the gulag of our times."

 Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths,
and distortions being told about our troops and about our country.

 The struggle we are in is too important--the consequences too severe--to
have the luxury of returning to the old mentality of "Blame America First."

Rumsfeld says nothing about the administration's "political enemies." He
does not mention the Democrats, and the only American politician to whom he
so much as alludes is a long-dead Republican, Sen. William Borah. He does
criticize the media (specifically Newsweek and CNN) and Amnesty
International for anti-American calumnies, and he takes vigorous issue with
the mindset that, as he puts it, "somehow vicious extremists can be
appeased."

Tellingly, Reid raises no objections to the substance of Rumsfeld's speech.

It may be that he agrees with everything the secretary says and is merely
playing politics with terrorism. That is the charitable interpretation of
his comments.

The uncharitable one is that the man who hopes to lead a legislative
majority actually disagrees with what Rumsfeld says -- in other words, that
Harry Reid believes terrorists can be appeased.

* Note: Rumsfeld errs in attributing this admission to "the former CNN
Baghdad bureau chief"; in fact, it was Eason Jordan, then CNN's chief news
executive, as we noted in April 2003.

Jane Arraf, CNN's former Baghdad bureau chief, has told us emphatically that
she was not a party to Jordan's suppression of news.
-----------------------------------

DSH
J Antero - 30 Aug 2006 23:26 GMT
I suspect he favors a competent execution of the war.

What do the people who want to create Rovian diversions, like divisive
labels such as "appeaser", want?

> Senator Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, is the leader of the Democrats in
> the Senate.
[quoted text clipped - 138 lines]
>
> DSH
Grey Satterfield - 30 Aug 2006 23:53 GMT
On 8/30/06 5:26 PM, in article
ygoJg.3395$xQ1.1260@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "J Antero"
<JAntero45@map.com> wrote:

> I suspect he favors a competent execution of the war.
>
> What do the people who want to create Rovian diversions, like divisive
> labels such as "appeaser", want?

I do not know, but suspect, that Me Antero favors an immediate withdrawal of
all US troops from Iraq.  Without knowing that it seems to me that we lack a
baseline for knowing what steps by the US Mr. Antero believes would
constitute "a competent execution of the war."

Grey Satterfield

>> Senator Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, is the leader of the Democrats in
>> the Senate.
[quoted text clipped - 138 lines]
>>
>> DSH
J Antero - 31 Aug 2006 00:04 GMT
> On 8/30/06 5:26 PM, in article
> ygoJg.3395$xQ1.1260@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "J Antero"
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I do not know,

That's correct.

>but suspect, that Me Antero favors an immediate withdrawal of
> all US troops from Iraq.

That's incorrect.

>Without knowing that it seems to me that we lack a
> baseline for knowing what steps by the US Mr. Antero believes would
> constitute "a competent execution of the war."

I, like a lot of others,  question whether the people who commited the
series of gross errors so far commited, should continue in leadership. I
think the "apeasement" label is a weak attempt to shift attention from their
own mistakes.
jacklinthicum@earthlink.net - 31 Aug 2006 00:33 GMT
> On 8/30/06 5:26 PM, in article
> ygoJg.3395$xQ1.1260@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "J Antero"
[quoted text clipped - 154 lines]
> >>
> >> DSH

I need a definition of appeasement in this context. It would seem it is
not "stay the course" which is simply doing what we are doing now, ie
dying without any sign of a victory. Who do we appease? There is no
Hitler to bow to and give lands up in another country to. We need to
know what Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George Bush mean when they say,
because we know what they mean when they do.:

Cheney's speech passed by almost completely unnoticed, perhaps because
it was just too delusional for comment. (Of the war in Iraq: "We wage
this fight with good allies at our side." Of present-day Iraq and
Afghanistan: "Fifty million people are awakening to a future of hope
and freedom." Would that both statements were so.)

The most-publicized portions of Rumsfeld's speech were in the same vein
as Cheney's: Today's terrorists pose the same threat as yesteryear's
Nazis; critics of the war in Iraq are like the appeasers before World
War II; the real problem is that "the media" spreads "lies" and "myths"
about how the war is going.

But then Rumsfeld posed four questions. "These are central questions of
our time, and we must face them," he said. So, let's face them.

1. "With the growing lethality and availability of weapons, can we
truly afford to believe that somehow vicious extremists can be
appeased?"

Well, it depends which "vicious extremists" he's talking about. If he's
talking about the leaders of al-Qaida, no, probably not. But, even
here, it's a mistake to presume that there are only two
choices-appeasement or war. Sometimes, war, at least war fought in a
certain style, does as much harm as good.

Rumsfeld should ponder another set of questions that he posed to a
handful of top advisers back in October 2003, in a private memo (which
was leaked shortly afterward to USA Today):

   Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the
global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and
dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical
clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

    How do we stop those who are financing the radical madrassa
schools? Is our current situation such that "the harder we work, the
behinder we get"? ... Should we create a private foundation to entice
radical madrassas to a more moderate course?

What's really pathetic is that nearly three years have since passed
and the Bush administration still hasn't answered his questions. And
what's truly cynical is that Rumsfeld can deliver such a simpleminded
speech-charging the critics of the war in Iraq with historical
ignorance and "moral confusion"-when he knows the truth is more
complicated.

2. "Can we really continue to think that free countries can negotiate a
separate peace with terrorists?"

Again, it depends what he means by "terrorists." If he's talking about
al-Qaida, who is advocating such a thing? If he's talking about, say,
Syria or Iran, which are state sponsors of terrorism, it's sheer folly
not to negotiate with them, at least on some issues. (Rumsfeld loads
the deck by tossing in the phrase "a separate peace.")

3. "Can we truly afford the luxury of pretending that the threats today
are simply 'law-enforcement' problems, rather than fundamentally
different threats, requiring fundamentally different approaches?"

Once more, Rumsfeld loads the deck. Nobody claims that today's threats
are "simply" matters of law enforcement. Obviously, terrorists are not
"simply" criminals, and dealing with them requires a mix of approaches,
including military. That said, techniques of law enforcement (including
police surveillance, border patrol, and international intelligence
sharing) have recently broken up more terrorist plots than any military
operation.

4. "And can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that
America-not the enemy-is the real source of the world's trouble?"

This is another red herring. Few Americans, and virtually no contenders
in American politics, hold this view. However, a lot of people in other
countries-including countries that are, or should be, our allies-do
hold this view.

These views are widespread-and, by the way, they've grown steadily
more prominent in the past few years-not because of "the media" or
"blame-America-first" liberals, nor because Iran and North Korea have
more skillful propagandists (or, if they do, it's time for Condoleezza
Rice to hire a better public-diplomacy staff). No, a country's global
image is usually formed not by what its leaders say but rather by what
they do.

If the war on terror is "a battle for the future of civilization," as
Cheney claimed in his speech (or even if it's merely a serious
struggle), and if the United States needs allies to wage it, the
president and his team would better spend their time luring allies than
beating up on journalists and Democrats. If Rumsfeld is serious, he
should revisit the questions he asked back in October 2003. Those-not
the cleverly phrased debaters' points he muttered this past
Monday-really are some "central questions of our time."

The only person they seem to able to quote with straight face is
Senator Wiillliam Borah who in his finely tuned isolationist style said
when Germany invaded Poland in September 1939, setting off World War
II,

Lord, if I could only have talked with Hitler, all this might have been
avoided.

Like Hitler was some county clerk who needed to know how the big man
felt.

This is the quote of the day although Charles  Krauthammer has used it
every time anyone looked like they were toeing the Republican line for
the past 17 years.
http://www.prospect.org/horsesmouth/2006/08/post_316.html
J Antero - 31 Aug 2006 01:02 GMT
<jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message

Damn good post.

I'll add a few points.

The Iraqi army would quickly fall if left on its own. In over three years,
little has been done to give them independent logistics, ground transport,
AFV's and helicopter transport and gunship capability. Even if the ground
troops were of higher quality, they still would be chopped up riding around
in Toyotas and running out of ammo, with few heavy weapons and no aviation
support. Until they are brought up to being a real force, how can there be
any realistic drawdowns of US troops, without a collapse of  the existing
"government"?  This is a basic point that gets little attention.

If anyone actually knows that we are correcting this, I would be glad to
learn about it.

There is a steady flow of new radicals coming out of these Islamic schools
in Pakistan etc., and nothing is being done about it. It wouldn't be hard to
learn who these teachers are, and solve the problem quietly and cheaply.
Andrew Swallow - 31 Aug 2006 02:39 GMT
[snip]

> There is a steady flow of new radicals coming out of these Islamic schools
> in Pakistan etc., and nothing is being done about it. It wouldn't be hard to
> learn who these teachers are, and solve the problem quietly and cheaply.

If the terrorists killed Iraqis check to see if the dead people have
relatives in the the Iraqi Police or Army.  Nothing like a volunteer
to save the USA having to explain why one of its citizens was captured
or killed.

Andrew Swallow
Jack Linthicum - 31 Aug 2006 18:42 GMT
Of course, not everybody appreciates Cheney and Rumsfelds attempts at
rewriting and recasting  history to make numerous different groups one
and all of our leaders good people recongnizable by name identification
with heroic figures of the past. Neither could remember who the bad
French guys were so they stuck Neville Chamberlin with the goat's role.
In the process they seem to have bothered some of their own people.

"The White House strategy of equating Democratic dissent with defeatism
worked during the 2002 and 2004 elections, but it could prove more
difficult this time. Some Republicans, such as Rep. Christopher Shays
(Conn.), line up with Democrats in seeking a timetable for a withdrawal
from Iraq. When Bush and his allies accuse those favoring such a
timetable of "self-defeating pessimism," as Cheney put it this week,
they risk spraying friendly fire on some of their own candidates.

In an interview yesterday, Shays said the charges by Cheney and
Rumsfeld are "over the top" and unhelpful. "The president should be
trying to bring the country together and not trying to divide us," he
said. Shays, a longtime supporter of the war who just returned from his
14th trip to Iraq and faces a tough reelection battle, said he plans to
outline next month a deadline for replacing U.S. troops doing
police-style patrols with Iraqi forces. But he fears the Bush
administration might not be supportive.

Other GOP incumbents, such as Reps. Gil Gutknecht (Minn.) and Michael
G. Fitzpatrick (Pa.), are also raising serious concerns about Bush's
Iraq policy.

But many embattled Republicans remain reluctant to break with the
administration's current approach. Rep. Rob Simmons, another
Connecticut Republican facing a difficult campaign in a
Democratic-leaning district, said he will oppose any effort by Shays to
establish a pullout deadline. "I don't think that is a good idea,"
Simmons said.

Instead, Simmons highlights his military service and initial objections
to invading Iraq three years ago. "I am a Connecticut Republican, and
the environment in which I operate is quite different from elsewhere in
the country," Simmons said. As for the emerging Bush political strategy
on terrorism and the war, it "is hard to judge whether it helps or
hurts," he said. "It may help candidates elsewhere in the country more
than it helps me."
quarterbackjoe - 31 Aug 2006 00:40 GMT
> On 8/30/06 5:26 PM, in article
> ygoJg.3395$xQ1.1260@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "J Antero"
> <JAntero45@map.com> wrote:

>> I suspect he favors a competent execution of the war.

>> What do the people who want to create Rovian diversions, like divisive
>> labels such as "appeaser", want?

> I do not know, but suspect, that Me Antero favors an immediate withdrawal of
> all US troops from Iraq.  Without knowing that it seems to me that we lack a
> baseline for knowing what steps by the US Mr. Antero believes would
> constitute "a competent execution of the war."

What Antero believes would be competent execution of the war is
irrelevant to the issue. Why did you choose to resort to ad hom once again?
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.