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History Forum / General / British History / September 2006Canada, Great Britain, The United States And The War Of 1812
Christopher Hitchens, the former loon socialist British journalist, who defected from loon Socialism and emigrated to the United States, had a father who was sound -- a naval officer. Hitchens has written a good book on Thomas Jefferson -- _Thomas Jefferson: Author Of America_ -- he says if Jefferson were to come back today one of his biggest surprises would be that we still haven't absorbed Canada. <g> Heinlein would approve. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Deus Vult > Christopher Hitchens, the former loon socialist British journalist, who > defected from loon Socialism and emigrated to the United States, had a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Deus Vult Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace would exist in North America cause America lost. It always amazes me that so many Americans are ignorant and rude about Canada,why do so few yanks visit their northern neighbour? are they scared of the bears? I recall being in Banff in 1988,there was a young band consisting of Canadian army cadets playing music in a park. It was beautiful,they played MEN OF HARLECH and the Canadian national anthem. There were old canadian vets covered in medals listeining to the music,an American tourist said loudly "I never knew Canada had an army" but being polite Canadians nobody hit him. > > Christopher Hitchens, the former loon socialist British journalist, who > > defected from loon Socialism and emigrated to the United States, had a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Canada,why do so few yanks visit their northern neighbour? are they > scared of the bears? maybe because a few years ago when a peewee hockey tem from massachusetts went to montreal for a tournement the canadian peple threw stones at the bus to protest george bush. its things like that. or maybe because canadian transplants like neil young and jonie mitchell, and even the canadian bands that stay north are consistantly writing anti-u.s. songs . i don't recall any similar incidents by americans directed at canada. >> > Christopher Hitchens, the former loon socialist British journalist, >> > who defected from loon Socialism and emigrated to the United [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > songs . > i don't recall any similar incidents by americans directed at canada. The hockey incident happened in Quebec, that should be sufficent explination There have been incidents on both sides of booing the other countries anthems when both are played at the start of hockey/baseball games  SignatureRich Enfield NS Canada Usnet ads see ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1 > > It always amazes me that so many Americans are ignorant and rude about > > Canada,why do so few yanks visit their northern neighbour? are they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that stay north are consistantly writing anti-u.s. songs . > i don't recall any similar incidents by americans directed at canada. The Canadian anthem has been booed in the US on a number of occasions. Our troops bombed and more recently strafed in Afganistan. Americans have ignored our sovereignty over Arctic waters and ignored NAFTA when it's worked to Canada's advantage. We've been blamed for 9/11 and for the blackout of 2004 when we had nothing to do with them. Canadian artists are like artists in most countries, flaky and left-wing. It's part of their form to attack conservatives and Bush is their target these days. They would tell you that they aren't anti-American they just don't like the administration. In terms of artists clobbering Canada we are a smaller target but occasionally we've taken shots from Law & Order and even the West Wing. I watched one episode of the West Wing (the only one I ever watched) in which the government was under threat from terrorists who had crossed the Ontario/Vermont border. There is no Ontario/Vermont border. Vermont has a border with Quebec. Again the implication is that the terrorists come from Canada. The wind blows both ways. >> > It always amazes me that so many Americans are ignorant and rude about >> > Canada,why do so few yanks visit their northern neighbour? are they [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > The wind blows both ways. Nonetheless, I would not bring up the strafing of the troops last Monday. We do not know that it wasn't a Canadian mistake. It is highly likely that it was a FAC's error, and some of them on the op were ours. Let the truth come out. Also, I think the Ontario/Vermont border error on West Wing was made deliberately to deflect accusations that they were trying to spread ill will. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) > "mrbill" <hmcs_kenogami@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > The wind blows both ways. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > deliberately to deflect accusations that they were trying to spread ill will. > -- You could very well be right. After some investigation the strafing could be the result of a Canadian's error. It's unfortunate that it's the second incident in which Canadians were hit by American friendly fire. Most Canadians still can't figure out why Schmidt isn't in jail for ignoring orders and killing 4 Canadians. The West Wing idea is bogus. They implied that terrorists come into the US from Canada. Whether or not the border cited actually exists is a red herring. Most Americans would not know that Ontario and Vermont don't share a border and I suspect that the writer(s) on the West Wing didn't either. In alt.history.british mrbill <hmcs_kenogami@hotmail.com> wrote: >The West Wing idea is bogus. They implied that terrorists come into >the US from Canada. Whether or not the border cited actually exists is >a red herring. Most Americans would not know that Ontario and Vermont >don't share a border and I suspect that the writer(s) on the West Wing >didn't either. I suspect that they do know. There was, back then, considerable discussion in the US about how easy it would be for terrorists to sneak across the border from Canada. That's a load of crap, of course. The last thing a terrorist wants is to be an undocumented alien. He's got enough things to look out for without having to worry about being stopped in random searches and not being able to produce documentation. Just as the 9/11 folks all entered the US legally, I'm sure that any serious terrorist types would do the same. ---- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british mrbill <hmcs_kenogami@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > ---- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british mrbill <hmcs_kenogami@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > discussion in the US about how easy it would be for terrorists to > sneak across the border from Canada. Perhaps it was a poor artistic decision then. If the intent was to create a bogus crossing point to underplay any perceived threats it would have been lost on the vast majority of the show's viewers. > That's a load of crap, of course. The last thing a terrorist > wants is to be an undocumented alien. He's got enough things [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just as the 9/11 folks all entered the US legally, I'm sure that > any serious terrorist types would do the same. That's probably true although there was the Al-Ressam case- the fellow who wanted to blow up LAX. There are always exceptions. >> In alt.history.british mrbill <hmcs_kenogami@hotmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >create a bogus crossing point to underplay any perceived threats it >would have been lost on the vast majority of the show's viewers. That was what was being talked about in public in the US then. The show, I think, just mirrored that. >> That's a load of crap, of course. The last thing a terrorist >> wants is to be an undocumented alien. He's got enough things [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >That's probably true although there was the Al-Ressam case- the fellow >who wanted to blow up LAX. There are always exceptions. Exactly. Terrorists are not a monolithic group. I was talking about the "professionally trained" terrorist who knows how to cover himself in a cloak of ordinaryness. As you say, there are always exceptions, often single amateurs who are frequently caught right at the start of their adventures. ---- Paul J. Gans > > Just as the 9/11 folks all entered the US legally, I'm sure that > > any serious terrorist types would do the same. > > > That's probably true although there was the Al-Ressam case- the fellow > who wanted to blow up LAX. There are always exceptions. Travelling under a bogus Canadian passport, this man had no right to enter the USA: and behaved suspiciously at the (highway) border: so was scrutinized, attempted to flee, and was arrested. He then confessed. The Ressam case suggests US vigilance was then adequate, but the 9/ll hijackers were different. All had entered the USA legally (with appropriate documents) but some had overstayed their visas yet were not investigated or sought out. Independently, the FBI was notified of the suspicious behavior of at least two foreigners at pilot schools, but appears not to have followed up these suspicions. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > Travelling under a bogus Canadian passport, this man had > no right to enter the USA: and behaved suspiciously at the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > at pilot schools, but appears not to have followed up > these suspicions. The problem in the Ressam case is that it does provide amunition to those who think Canada is a haven for terrorists. Of course the Canadian government has done some damn stupid things over the past few years such as accepting people as refugee claimants after they flushed their documents down the toilets while flying in. The government was also slow in putting Hezbollah and the Tamil Tigers on the list of terrorist groups. A friend of mine who worked for the Liberal party years ago told me that the Tamils were superb fund raisers and the Liberals didn't want to jeopardize that source of revenue. Yep... The Canadian "Liberals" have been a disaster for U.S--Canada Relations. DSH >> Travelling under a bogus Canadian passport, this man had >> no right to enter the USA: and behaved suspiciously at the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > years ago told me that the Tamils were superb fund raisers and the > Liberals didn't want to jeopardize that source of revenue. > Of course the > Canadian government has done some damn stupid things over the past few > years such as accepting people as refugee claimants after they flushed > their documents down the toilets while flying in. We can blame the Supreme Court for this, viz. its ruling that everyone on Canadian soil, even if possibly illegally so, should have the full set of legal rights guaranteed to Canadians, including free legal aid and welfare payments (pending hearings by an immigration and refugee board.) This gave applicants for admission as refugees significant priority over regular applicants for admission as immigrants. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > Of course the > > Canadian government has done some damn stupid things over the past few [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -- Our Supreme Court has pulled some real boners. Unfortunately, the court was largely selected by the Liberals (have I mentioned them before?) without any vetting process such as occurs in the US. IMO the Liberals selected Supreme Court judges who would interpret the Constitution in ways that the Liberals wanted but would have made them unelectable and in some cases they actually voted against e.g. gay marriage. Unfortunately, since Bourassa the politians have not had the nerve to use the Nonwithstanding Clause. The government created a monster and let it run unchecked. >>>It always amazes me that so many Americans are ignorant and rude about >>>Canada,why do so few yanks visit their northern neighbour? are they [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Ontario/Vermont border. There is no Ontario/Vermont border. Vermont > has a border with Quebec. Americans are notorious for their ignorance of geography. They are perversely proud of it, even. > Again the implication is that the terrorists > come from Canada. > > The wind blows both ways. >>>Christopher Hitchens, the former loon socialist British journalist, who >>>defected from loon Socialism and emigrated to the United States, had a [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > that stay north are consistantly writing anti-u.s. songs . > i don't recall any similar incidents by americans directed at canada. I've been to Canada many times, and I love the place. I've never had any trouble, and in fact, I've been welcomed. My Canadian friends are the ones who talk about anti-American sentiment in Canada, and they get it and yet they don't get it. They get it in that they can understand that the U.S. ignores Canada, takes it for granted, is dismissive toward it, doesn't appreciate significant cultural differences, and more, and that's going to cause resentment. They don't get it, the anti-American resentment, because they can see that none of these American failings has any meaningful impact on Canadian life, and so the resentment seems like an immmature overreaction. I liken it to the one-way rivalry that exists between San Francisco and Los Angeles, or more broadly between NoCal and SoCal. People in SF are obsessed with LA, and gratuitously insult the southland all the time. It has a really bitchy quality. By contrast, most people in LA don't think about SF much at all, except maybe as a quaint place to visit, and they aren't aware that SF residents feel the way they do. Similarly, I don't think most Americans are even aware of anti-American sentiment in Canada. Those who are, and who overreact to it, are immature twits. In alt.history.british Leif Erikson <jackball@phs.con> wrote: >>>>Christopher Hitchens, the former loon socialist British journalist, who >>>>defected from loon Socialism and emigrated to the United States, had a [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> that stay north are consistantly writing anti-u.s. songs . >> i don't recall any similar incidents by americans directed at canada. >I've been to Canada many times, and I love the place. >I've never had any trouble, and in fact, I've been [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >impact on Canadian life, and so the resentment seems >like an immmature overreaction. >I liken it to the one-way rivalry that exists between >San Francisco and Los Angeles, or more broadly between [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >sentiment in Canada. Those who are, and who overreact >to it, are immature twits. Having just spent some days in Canada I found that Canadians in general were very kindly disposed toward Americans. They seem to be able to differentiate between our government and the people. They don't much care for our government. Of course there is the rather serious dispute between the US and Canada over the northern Canadian national waters, but that gets no publicity here so most Americans don't even know what it is about. ---- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british Leif Erikson <jackball@phs.con> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > but that gets no publicity here so most Americans don't > even know what it is about. We Canadians are very hospitable towards visitors from the U.S. and elsewhere. And, yes, it's your government we don't care for. In fact, we could not even imagine a G. W. Bush type heading *our* country. But, yes, we like Americans, and I think most Americans like us; at least, that's *my* experience. - nilita In alt.history.british La N <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote: >We Canadians are very hospitable towards visitors from the U.S. and >elsewhere. And, yes, it's your government we don't care for. In fact, we >could not even imagine a G. W. Bush type heading *our* country. But, yes, >we like Americans, and I think most Americans like us; at least, that's *my* >experience. There will be a web site in the near future with the details of my visit to Canada. Yes, I liked it that much... ---- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british La N <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yes, I liked it that much... Geeze, I followed this thread only to find it on alt.history.british which I don't generally read ...%) Anyway, glad I saw this and glad that you enjoyed your visit. I look forward to seeing your website. - nilita, who posts from us.military.army and sci.military.naval (who'd'a thunkit!) >> In alt.history.british La N <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Yes, I liked it that much... >Geeze, I followed this thread only to find it on alt.history.british which I >don't generally read ...%) >Anyway, glad I saw this and glad that you enjoyed your visit. I look >forward to seeing your website. >- nilita, who posts from us.military.army and sci.military.naval (who'd'a >thunkit!) Well, that's the problem. Nobody knows who is posting from where, so we end up with massively crossposted stuff, off-topic for most anything. I'm doing this from alt.history.british because, while not totally on-topic for them, is at least marginally on topic. I don't generally post directly to us.military.army or sci.military.naval. I'd think those have more to do with actual military operations than political history. ---- Paul J. Gans >> In alt.history.british Leif Erikson <jackball@phs.con> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > yes, we like Americans, and I think most Americans like us; at least, > that's *my* experience. Canadians seem to be fine (sometimes misguided) people. We just don't like you. > > We Canadians are very hospitable towards visitors from the U.S. and > > elsewhere. And, yes, it's your government we don't care for. In fact, we [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Canadians seem to be fine (sometimes misguided) people. We just don't like > you. Are you the same Daryl Hunt who just picked up not one but two **Usenet Kook** awards for July-August 2006? >> > We Canadians are very hospitable towards visitors from the U.S. and >> > elsewhere. And, yes, it's your government we don't care for. In fact, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Are you the same Daryl Hunt who just picked up not one but two **Usenet > Kook** awards for July-August 2006? He's pretty famous all over Usenet! - nilita > Are you the same Daryl Hunt who just picked up not one but two **Usenet > Kook** awards for July-August 2006? That's *our* Daryl. We are soooo proud. Kookle Search Results 4 matches for "Daryl Hunt ". Daryl Hunt Kook of the Month, August 2006 Clueless Newbie of the Month, August 2006 George Pickett Memorial Trophy, June 2006 Tinfoil Sombrero >Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace >would exist in North America cause America lost. I'll leave that little issue in abeyance for now. :o) >It always amazes me that so many Americans are ignorant and rude about >Canada, And, of course, Canadians are never rude or ignorant about Americans. >why do so few yanks visit their northern neighbour? I guess this is the reason that a new bridge across the Detroit River (doubling the number of trans-riverine lanes from 6 to 12) is to be built? Ever stop to consider that most tourists travel to warmer climes? Think that may be why places like Miami and Jamaica are major tourist stops, but Fargo and Fairbanks are not? Try looking at a population map of the United States and Canada sometime. What percentage of Americans live within easy driving range of Canada? Compare that with Canadian demographics. . > are they >scared of the bears? No bears in in the Upper Great Lakes, or the mountain states, eh? > I guess this is the reason that a new bridge across the Detroit River > (doubling the number of trans-riverine lanes from 6 to 12) is to be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Americans live within easy driving range of Canada? Compare that with > Canadian demographics. . Since you mentioned the proposed new Windsor-Detroit crossing (a bridge isn't the final choice) it's worth noting that some 45 million Americans live NORTH of the Windsor area. Could we ask them to come south and vacation here? Americans visit Canada by the ton and are generally welcome. The Ugly American is an exception. Most Americans are decent people who come here and enjoy visiting their northern (or southern) neighbours. They are most welcome and we could use more of them. On 9/7/06 1:32 PM, in article 1157653937.793788.191110@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "mrbill" <hmcs_kenogami@hotmail.com> wrote: > Americans visit Canada by the ton and are generally welcome. The Ugly > American is an exception. Most Americans are decent people who come > here and enjoy visiting their northern (or southern) neighbours. They > are most welcome and we could use more of them. I usually like Canada and Canadians, but I had an "Ugly Canadian" experience in 1954. Actually it was an "Ugly French Canadian" experience. I was In Quebec on a Midshipmen's cruise with a bunch of other Mids and sailors. We were required to wear our uniforms, even when we were ashore. I had a date one evening with a nice girl, when as we were walking down a public sidewalk, a young, probably under 20, kid said something in French to me, which was clearly uncomplimentary. I asked the girl what it had been about, but she refused to say. "Welcome to Canada," indeed. Americans can be ugly, but it's a good idea to remember that we don't hold a patent on that kind of misconduct. Grey Satterfield > On 9/7/06 1:32 PM, in article > 1157653937.793788.191110@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "mrbill" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ugly, but it's a good idea to remember that we don't hold a patent on that > kind of misconduct. I've had "Ugly French Canadian" experiences as well and I'm sure French Canadians and "Maudit Anglais" experiences (maybe with me when I was younger). Perhaps it says something about them that you have to go back over 50 years to recall such an incident. > Since you mentioned the proposed new Windsor-Detroit crossing (a bridge > isn't the final choice) it's worth noting that some 45 million [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > here and enjoy visiting their northern (or southern) neighbours. They > are most welcome and we could use more of them. Especially the college kids who know two words of Canadian: Bras D'Or >Since you mentioned the proposed new Windsor-Detroit crossing (a bridge >isn't the final choice) I know, but my money is on a bridge. There is some resistance to a new crossing though. Critics site the declining crossings since 2000, but I think 9-11 and the increased BS to get across, or rather back, has been an issue with that. Passports? Hell, that's too much trouble. If I be a wantin' to travel to foreign climes, then I'll just go to Ohio. :o) > it's worth noting that some 45 million >Americans live NORTH of the Windsor area. Of course, thar be damn few border crossings to reach the "City of Sin." > Could we ask them to come >south and vacation here? It used to be a nice day stop, but with all the BS at the borders now (and the fact Detroit has casinos of its own), a lot of Canada's appeal has tapered off. >Americans visit Canada by the ton and are generally welcome. That has been my experience, though many that I've known feel Canadian women are pretty stuck up, and not to be trusted. :o) > The Ugly >American is an exception. Most Americans are decent people who come >here and enjoy visiting their northern (or southern) neighbours. They >are most welcome and we could use more of them. I think that is true for most peoples anywhere (save maybe Parisians). >>Since you mentioned the proposed new Windsor-Detroit crossing (a bridge >>isn't the final choice) [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I think that is true for most peoples anywhere (save maybe Parisians). Vancouver, British Columbia has been getting worse with a booming trade in prostitutes and drugs. A Greek family I knew tried to help a young girl who was a relative of theirs secure a visa for permanent residence in the United States, but they had to send her back to Greece when her prostitution and drug activities in Vancouver made her ineligible to recevie a visa to the United States. Canada is a favorite transit point for immigrants seeking Canadian residence and citizenship as a steppingstone to acquie permanent residency and citizenship in the United States. >>>Since you mentioned the proposed new Windsor-Detroit crossing (a bridge >>>isn't the final choice) [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > steppingstone to acquie permanent residency and citizenship in the United > States. My daughter, who is drug-free, lives in Vancouver, one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And, the part of B.C. where *I* live is seeing A LOT of Americans buying property and moving up here. - nilita > >Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace > >would exist in North America cause America lost. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > No bears in in the Upper Great Lakes, or the mountain states, eh? I think you assume I an a Canuck,in fact I am a Brit,in fact a Scot,but I have travelled over much of Canada. I know by the tone of your reply that you are an American. Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want to see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour after all. I am fairly familiar with the geography of North America. Americans do not have to drive to go on holiday,they could fly,or do a scenic train ride. You would have to pay me a lot of money to visit Florida or Jamaica,I bet the people who go there are very careful not to mix with the natives in both places. On the other hand Canada is very safe and the people speak English. My remark about bears was meant to indicate how ignorant many Americans seem to be about Canada. Perhaps I am very wrong and Americans know a lot about Canada and how nice it is but choose to go Mexico where the locals hate them and rip them off. Of course if you really want a good holiday come to Scotland. :> >Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace :> >would exist in North America cause America lost. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] :I have travelled over much of Canada. :I know by the tone of your reply that you are an American. And it's obvious from the tone of your reply that you're a Brit, although I would have said English rather than Scottish. :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want to :see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour :after all. But folks who want to see something like Canada would probably go al Alaska, instead. :I am fairly familiar with the geography of North America. :Americans do not have to drive to go on holiday,they could fly,or do a :scenic train ride. But to fly you'd have to be going to a specific place (and then get a car once you're there). 'Scenic train ride'? You may be familiar with geography, but you don't appear to know much about anything else. :You would have to pay me a lot of money to visit Florida or Jamaica,I :bet the people who go there are very careful not to mix with the :natives in both places. You lose. :On the other hand Canada is very safe and the people speak English. Unlike, say, Florida and Jamaica? <snicker> :My remark about bears was meant to indicate how ignorant many Americans :seem to be about Canada. And here we just assumed you were displaying how ignorant many Brits are about the United States. :Perhaps I am very wrong and Americans know a lot about Canada and how :nice it is but choose to go Mexico where the locals hate them and rip :them off. So you don't know much about Mexico, either. :Of course if you really want a good holiday come to Scotland. Ok, NOW you sound like a Scot. :-) Signature"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point, somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me.... I am the law." -- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer > :> >Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace > :> >would exist in North America cause America lost. [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > I am the law." > -- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer There are several scenic train rides in Canada,you can even get the train from New York to Toronto. I know about this cause I work in the railway industry,I can also read a map,I have also done these trips. Neither America or Canada would be the nations they are today without the railway,there are still some lines left in both countries. Of course perhaps you want to fly or drive everywhere and add to the problem of global warming. I have never been to Florida but I am not into beaches and sun and l still think there is more to see in Canada. Lots of British people go to Florida for their holidays,they sit on the beach,get tanned and hope they don't get mugged (see the Florida Law Enforcement website for advice on how not to get mugged or car jacked in Florida if you are a tourist.) There are lots of places in the US that I would like to visit but Florida is not one of them. I have never been to Jamaica either but know some Jamaicans in Britain,they live here because their homeland in violent ,disorganised and crime ridden,look up Yardies on the internet if you do not believe me Of course the Mexicans hate America,they have an anti American museum in Mexico City I think,I am sure they love all the day trippers who boast about how little they had to pay for the company of young mexican girls and all the racist remarks about wetbacks and so on. Of course the Americans who visit Jamaica visit the rough parts of Kingston where there is no crime at all,or they go to Florida and hang out with the locals,more likely they stay in artificial resort areas with security,get a suntan and could be anywhere in the world. You might enjoy Scotland if you came here,it is not always sunny and not everything works all the time,but its a beautiful country with lots to see and do,and we speak better english than they do in Jamaica or Florida. :There are several scenic train rides in Canada,you can even get the :train from New York to Toronto. But why would one need to go to Canada for scenery? We have so much here, after all. :I know about this cause I work in the railway industry,I can also read :a map,I have also done these trips. How nice for you. :Neither America or Canada would be the nations they are today without :the railway,there are still some lines left in both countries. Non-subsidized passenger train service in the United States is about as much fun as riding a Greyhound bus. :Of course perhaps you want to fly or drive everywhere and add to the :problem of global warming. I see. You stupidly buy into the 'human caused Global Warming' line. :I have never been to Florida but I am not into beaches and sun and l :still think there is more to see in Canada. Well, Canada is a bit bigger than Florida, but a lot of it does look the same. :Lots of British people go to Florida for their holidays,they sit on the :beach,get tanned and hope they don't get mugged (see the Florida Law :Enforcement website for advice on how not to get mugged or car jacked :in Florida if you are a tourist.) Cite? :There are lots of places in the US that I would like to visit but :Florida is not one of them. Suit yourself. I rather doubt that Florida is all broken up over missing you. :I have never been to Jamaica either but know some Jamaicans in :Britain,they live here because their homeland in violent ,disorganised :and crime ridden,look up Yardies on the internet if you do not believe :me I've been to Jamaica. I'm not responsible for either your racism or Britain's appetite for cocaine. :Of course the Mexicans hate America,they have an anti American museum :in Mexico City I think,I am sure they love all the day trippers who :boast about how little they had to pay for the company of young mexican :girls and all the racist remarks about wetbacks and so on. You really are a silly git, aren't you? :Of course the Americans who visit Jamaica visit the rough parts of :Kingston where there is no crime at all,or they go to Florida and hang :out with the locals,more likely they stay in artificial resort areas :with security,get a suntan and could be anywhere in the world. You talk like Florida is a Third World Nation rather than one of the most populous states in the United States. :You might enjoy Scotland if you came here, Been there. Done that. :it is not always sunny and :not everything works all the time,but its a beautiful country with lots :to see and do, I quite agree. :and we speak better english than they do in Jamaica or :Florida. I wouldn't bet on that. My ex-mother-in-law is Scottish, you see. After half a century in the United States, she can still be incomprehensible sometimes. Signature"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson > :There are several scenic train rides in Canada,you can even get the > :train from New York to Toronto. [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." > -- Thomas Jefferson I do not think I am a racist.the problem of Jamaica are a fact and nothing to do with racism. Many people from Jamaica living in Britain have horror stories about living there,I wish it was otherwise ,but tourist do live in fenced off areas,do you think I am making this stuff up ? I do not think that Florida is a third world country (although they have difficulties running an election?) but it is a fact that the tourist authorities in Florida were worried about Brits being robbed or worse and put out a lot of stuff about how to holiday there safely,the car hire companies changed the number plates so that car jackers were not able to spot tourists with hire cars. You think Florida does need me to visit but they certainly want people from my country to visit. I know that America is a big beautiful country but if more Americans visited foreign countries they might enjoy themselves and learn more about the outside world. :> :There are several scenic train rides in Canada,you can even get the :> :train from New York to Toronto. [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] : :I do not think I am a racist. Of course you don't. Racists never do. :the problem of Jamaica are a fact and :nothing to do with racism. :Many people from Jamaica living in Britain have horror stories about :living there,I wish it was otherwise ,but tourist do live in fenced off :areas,do you think I am making this stuff up ? And many people in Britain have horror stories about living there. So what? :I do not think that Florida is a third world country (although they :have difficulties running an election?) but it is a fact that the :tourist authorities in Florida were worried about Brits being robbed or :worse and put out a lot of stuff about how to holiday there safely,the :car hire companies changed the number plates so that car jackers were :not able to spot tourists with hire cars. And just why do you think the criminals were selecting out tourists to attack? Because the locals might be armed, of course, and criminals aren't stupid. :You think Florida does need me to visit but they certainly want people :from my country to visit. No doubt they do, but so what? :I know that America is a big beautiful country but if more Americans :visited foreign countries they might enjoy themselves and learn more :about the outside world. I'll simply to refer to your own paragraph and substitute you for 'Americans' and 'foreign countries' for Florida. Oh, and just to disabuse you of your stupid stereotype, who do you think most of the tourists are? Americans DO visit lots of foreign countries. Of course, given that for you it's a short ferry ride and you're in a 'foreign country'. Perhaps if more of you 'foreigners' opened up your minds you wouldn't be stuck with such stupid stereotypes. Signature"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson > :> :There are several scenic train rides in Canada,you can even get the > :> :train from New York to Toronto. [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." > -- Thomas Jefferson OK lets call it a draw,like the war of 1812. Of course we get lots of American visitors,I wish we had more, I like Americans,I love helping American and other tourists plan their trips around the UK and the rest of Europe,but America in not the world and it saddens me that some Americans do not visit us because they think they would not enjoy a new experience or that they would not be safe. It is true that France is only 50 miles away from the South Coast of England,but I live 500 miles from there,not far in American terms but not a day trip either. I promise I will visit the USA again soon and meet all the intelligent criminals in Florida. :Of course we get lots of American visitors,I wish we had more, :I like Americans,I love helping American and other tourists plan their [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :England,but I live 500 miles from there,not far in American terms but :not a day trip either. I go further than that in a day (but not, of course, for an out and back trip). However, something many Europeans just don't seem to understand when they want to criticize Americans for 'not leaving home' is that this place is as big as all of Europe. Other than the language being (mostly) the same, going to a different US state can be like a foreign journey with all sorts of 'new experience'. :I promise I will visit the USA again soon and meet all the intelligent :criminals in Florida. See what I mean? You single out Florida as 'different', but it's just one of 50. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn > :Of course we get lots of American visitors,I wish we had more, > :I like Americans,I love helping American and other tourists plan their [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > territory." > --G. Behn Sorry for mentioning Florida but it is the state most visited by Brits and was the place we were talking about. I understand that America is bigger than Europe and that the states seem like foreign countries,but in Europe they are actually foreign countires I like America and Americans and when finance and family circumstances allow I will visit again,I am not an enemy of the USA,and Britain as a country is not an enemy either,you have real enemies out there,seems sad to fall out with your friends. >I promise I will visit the USA again soon and meet all the intelligent >criminals in Florida. I think you'd have to arrange an appointment with the gubnertorial staff well in advance of your trip before you could meet Jeb Bush. Gavin Bailey -- Now see message: "Boot sector corrupt. System halted. All data lost." Spend thousands of dollar on top grade windows system. Result better than expected. What your problem? - Bart Kwan En The Leslie Cheswick Soul Explosion <g.j.bailey@delete.me.dundee.ac.uk> wrote: :>I promise I will visit the USA again soon and meet all the intelligent :>criminals in Florida. : :I think you'd have to arrange an appointment with the gubnertorial :staff well in advance of your trip before you could meet Jeb Bush. And so we once again see that Mr Bailey's goal is merely the sort of stupid political spew with which he lards his proclaimed 'defense' of Britain over the War of 1812. Signature"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." -- Socrates >:I think you'd have to arrange an appointment with the gubnertorial >:staff well in advance of your trip before you could meet Jeb Bush. > >And so we once again see that Mr Bailey's goal is merely the sort of >stupid political spew with which he lards his proclaimed 'defense' of >Britain over the War of 1812. Chomp. Check the "Organisation" header fields on the post you are responding to, Fred. The inevitabilty of your response was awesome.... Meanwhile, do try to contradict my statements over the 1812-14 war with something other than bluster. Gavin Bailey -- Now see message: "Boot sector corrupt. System halted. All data lost." Spend thousands of dollar on top grade windows system. Result better than expected. What your problem? - Bart Kwan En The Leslie Cheswick Soul Explosion <g.j.bailey@delete.me.dundee.ac.uk> wrote: :>:I think you'd have to arrange an appointment with the gubnertorial :>:staff well in advance of your trip before you could meet Jeb Bush. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :Chomp. Check the "Organisation" header fields on the post you are :responding to, Fred. Why give a sh.t what someone puts in the org field? You act like it means something. :The inevitabilty of your response was :awesome.... The inevitability of your stupidity was tiresome.... :Meanwhile, do try to contradict my statements over the 1812-14 war :with something other than bluster. Meanwhile, do try to learn to read. Please show where I made any attempt contradict your statements. What an a.s.... :Gavin Bailey Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn >:Chomp. Check the "Organisation" header fields on the post you are >:responding to, Fred. > >Why give a sh.t what someone puts in the org field? You act like it >means something. It does. It means I'm getting you to perform like a circus pony, driven mad by your own rage and ignorance. >Meanwhile, do try to learn to read. Please show where I made any >attempt contradict your statements. Do you even read and comprehend your own postings? >What an a.s.... Indeed. It's been a while since I've seen somebody admit that they didn't understand know what they were saying themselves. Gavin Bailey -- Now see message: "Boot sector corrupt. System halted. All data lost." Spend thousands of dollar on top grade windows system. Result better than expected. What your problem? - Bart Kwan En The Leslie Cheswick Soul Explosion <g.j.bailey@delete.me.dundee.ac.uk> wrote: :>:Chomp. Check the "Organisation" header fields on the post you are :>:responding to, Fred. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :It does. It means I'm getting you to perform like a circus pony, :driven mad by your own rage and ignorance. Apparently it means you're on drugs and deluded. :>Meanwhile, do try to learn to read. Please show where I made any :>attempt contradict your statements. : :Do you even read and comprehend your own postings? Do you? :>What an a.s.... : :Indeed. It's been a while since I've seen somebody admit that they :didn't understand know what they were saying themselves. Oooo, how clever. What next, a little couplet about rubber and glue? Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn >:It does. It means I'm getting you to perform like a circus pony, >:driven mad by your own rage and ignorance. > >Apparently it means you're on drugs and deluded. Ah, the allegations of drug abuse to add to the earlier homophobic assertions. I'm still disappointed that you haven't got around to calling me a Nazi yet. Gavin Bailey -- Now see message: "Boot sector corrupt. System halted. All data lost." Spend thousands of dollar on top grade windows system. Result better than expected. What your problem? - Bart Kwan En The Leslie Cheswick Soul Explosion <g.j.bailey@delete.me.dundee.ac.uk> wrote: :>:It does. It means I'm getting you to perform like a circus pony, :>:driven mad by your own rage and ignorance. :> :>Apparently it means you're on drugs and deluded. : :Ah, the allegations of drug abuse It was the only excuse I could find for the idiotic remarks on your part that preceded it. Mere delusion on your part hardly seems an adequate explanation. :to add to the earlier homophobic :assertions. Pardon me? What the f.ck are you nattering on about now? I guess this is just more evidence of your quite loose connection to our current reality. :I'm still disappointed that you haven't got around to :calling me a Nazi yet. I suspect, given your approach, that you spend a lot of time being disappointed about reality not conforming to your delusions. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn >:Ah, the allegations of drug abuse > >It was the only excuse I could find for the idiotic remarks on your >part that preceded it. Try contradicting me with better and more accurate historical analysis. Your evident frustration indicates that you can't do this, and you need to resort to such personal abuse as a consequence. >:to add to the earlier homophobic >:assertions. > >Pardon me? What the f.ck are you nattering on about now? **** From: Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Canada, Great Britain, The United States And The War Of 1812 Message-ID: <qncng2p18likr0p8ahjqlqq4dk6jgsup5e@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:28:20 PDT Oh, you're just another silly poof attempting a supercilious superiority. **** Classy, Fred. I really don't need to exert much effort to discredit you as an ignorant and abusive buffoon, do I? You're doing all the work for me on that front. Keep it up. >I suspect, given your approach, that you spend a lot of time being >disappointed about reality not conforming to your delusions. I admit have no right to feel disappointed in this instance given the overwhelming evidence of your behaviour provided by your previous postings on this group. Gavin Bailey -- Now see message: "Boot sector corrupt. System halted. All data lost." Spend thousands of dollar on top grade windows system. Result better than expected. What your problem? - Bart Kwan En The Leslie Cheswick Soul Explosion <g.j.bailey@delete.me.dundee.ac.uk> wrote: :>:Ah, the allegations of drug abuse :> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :analysis. Your evident frustration indicates that you can't do this, :and you need to resort to such personal abuse as a consequence. Irony - it's different from 'goldy' and 'bronzy'. :>:to add to the earlier homophobic :>:assertions. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] :you as an ignorant and abusive buffoon, do I? You're doing all the :work for me on that front. Perhaps you should go back and read your remarks up to that point, larded with snide remarks as they were? Perhaps you should go look up 'homophobic' while you're working on that 'fractions' thing to figure out what 'half' is. :Keep it up. : [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :overwhelming evidence of your behaviour provided by your previous :postings on this group. In other words, you've got nothing. Waaaa, waaaa, waaaa. Bleat on, Gavin. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn Florida, is full of decent folk who speak fine English. I have been there more than once. I understand that there are parts of Florida with many immigrants from Cuba, however, most of the state is just like the rest of the U.S. In fact it is typical of the United States as a whole to have a signifigant Hispanic minority. It is this country's largest minority group. Florida is not a particularly violent or dangerous place. > :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want to > :see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour > :after all. > > But folks who want to see something like Canada would probably go al > Alaska, instead. No. Alaska shares some characteristics with British Columbia and the Yukon Territory. But most of Canada looks far different. > :I am fairly familiar with the geography of North America. > :Americans do not have to drive to go on holiday,they could fly,or do a > :scenic train ride. > > But to fly you'd have to be going to a specific place (and then get a > car once you're there). 'Scenic train ride'? Yes, there are several in both the United States and Canada, including some that are regular commercial service rather than specialized tourist trains. In the US, I'd recommend some of the scenery along the Mississippi as the train travels between St Paul and Milwaukee or, say, the Coast Starlight in Oregon and California. In Canada, there are notable routes in BC and Alberta. snip re: train routes > In Canada, there are notable routes in BC and Alberta. There are also 2 in Ontario. The Polar Bear Express that runs between North Bay and James Bay. There's also a route north of Lake Superior that's spectacular in the fall. :> :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want to :> :see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :No. Alaska shares some characteristics with British Columbia and the :Yukon Territory. But most of Canada looks far different. Yes, and for those we'd go to Maine or Michigan or some such. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn > :> :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want > to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Yes, and for those we'd go to Maine or Michigan or some such. Prolly a good idea, Fred. Stay in the U.S. Any other people interested in good Canuckistanian hospitality - "mi casa es su casa". - nilita :> :> :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want :> to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : :Prolly a good idea, Fred. Stay in the U.S. I've probably seen more of the world than you have, dear. :Any other people interested in good Canuckistanian hospitality - "mi casa es :su casa". Thought you were moving to Florida. Looking for buyers, are you? :-) Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn > :> :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want to > :> :see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yes, and for those we'd go to Maine or Michigan or some such. Because, after all, the Bay of Fundy is such a common-place, for instance. Any chance we can add a few states to your list of places not to go? Perhaps Maine, for instance. :> :> :Of course some people go to warmer places,but some people might want to :> :> :see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : :Because, after all, the Bay of Fundy is such a common-place, for instance. Well, it's hardly the only place with an extreme tidal bore, after all. :Any chance we can add a few states to your list of places not to go? :Perhaps Maine, for instance. Tell you what. Why don't you just find someplace noone else is and stay there? Signature"So many women. So little charm." -- Donna, to Josh; The West Wing > :> >Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace > :> >would exist in North America cause America lost. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > But folks who want to see something like Canada would probably go al > Alaska, instead. Having just spent a week in Canada (the Desolation Sound area of British Columbia) I can state that getting to a comparable area of Alaska would have cost significantly more---both for the travel to and from the area and for the cost of the yacht charter. > :I am fairly familiar with the geography of North America. > :Americans do not have to drive to go on holiday,they could fly,or do a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > car once you're there). 'Scenic train ride'? You may be familiar > with geography, but you don't appear to know much about anything else. Ummm--I've been on a number of scenic train rides on Amtrak. Oregon to San Francisco and Oregon to Minesota. Both were scenic and convenient--but more expensive (with sleeping accomodations) than cattle-car tourist-class flights. To be sure, at least one day of the trip from Oregon to Minnesota involved somewhat repetitive views of the Northern Plains in Montana and North Dakota. Still, I found those hours interesting since I had grown up in Northern Montana. Not much (in the scenery) had changed in 40 years. > :You would have to pay me a lot of money to visit Florida or Jamaica,I > :bet the people who go there are very careful not to mix with the > :natives in both places. > > You lose. Been to Florida. The native were friendly---but not as friendly as those in Texas. I don't know why, but as a Northwest native, I felt more welcome in Texas than anyplace else in the South. > :On the other hand Canada is very safe and the people speak English. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > :My remark about bears was meant to indicate how ignorant many Americans > :seem to be about Canada. Hmmm---might that have something to do with the fact that 80% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US, while only about 5% of US citizens live within 100 miles of Canada? (The percentages are a rough guess---probbably good within +/-25%, though). > And here we just assumed you were displaying how ignorant many Brits > are about the United States. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So you don't know much about Mexico, either. I agreee. I don't think most Mexicans hate US citizens. They may envy us some of our economic status, but rather than hate us, they want to become one of us! > :Of course if you really want a good holiday come to Scotland. > > Ok, NOW you sound like a Scot. :-) What does one do on holiday in Scotland? I've got plenty of mountains for hiking here in Oregon. (Mountain == elevation above 1500meters). I've got rivers, lakes and seacoast aplenty. When I go on holiday in Europe, I want good museums (especially maritime museums), good food, and reasonably priced accomodations. I think London and Paris beat Scotland on two out of three. I'm willing to be converted, though. Mark Borgerson >I think you assume I an a Canuck You assumed wrong. It was quite evident you were a Brit (besided the .uk was a dead giveaway). >,in fact I am a Brit,in fact a Scot, A rose by any other name. but >I have travelled over much of Canada. >I know by the tone of your reply that you are an American. Bully for you. FWIW, I live less than 30 miles from Canada (by sea). >Of course some people go to warmer places In fact most, including Canadians. Look up the term "snow birds" some time. >,but some people might want to >see an interesting and beautiful country and Canada is your neighbour >after all. You may have traveled widely in Canada, but you are obviously ignorant of the United States. Canada does not have much more to offer than the U.S. in that regards. Yes, it is a beautiful country (mostly), but it is also North America, and the topography does not suddenly alter once one travels above the 49th parallel. >I am fairly familiar with the geography of North America. >Americans do not have to drive to go on holiday,they could fly,or do a >scenic train ride. Or do that in the United States. In terms of territory to rail ratios, Canada offers less than the U.S. (and the U.S.has damned little at that). >You would have to pay me a lot of money to visit Florida or Jamaica, Ok, that is you, but the overwhelming majority of people (which includes those who say "eh" a lot) disagree with you. I >bet the people who go there are very careful not to mix with the >natives in both places. Sounds more like Edinborough. :o) >On the other hand Canada is very safe and the people speak English. Unless one is going to Montreal or Quebec (two of top three tourist destinations in Canada IIRC). >My remark about bears was meant to indicate how ignorant many Americans >seem to be about Canada. Americans are not so ignorant about Canada as you believe. That we may disregard it, from time to time, does not require we are ignorant. The fact is, most of the natural beauty can be found in the United States, and one does not have to worry about that pesky exchange rate. :o) >Perhaps I am very wrong and Americans know a lot about Canada and how >nice it is but choose to go Mexico where the locals hate them and rip >them off. Don't know about Mexico, but I certainly have been ripped off in Canada on occasion. >Of course if you really want a good holiday come to Scotland. Being from Scotland, I can see why you see the Canadian tundra as a step up. :o) [Awaits Mr. Lothian's scathing comebacks. :o) ] >>I think you assume I an a Canuck > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > [Awaits Mr. Lothian's scathing comebacks. :o) ] <ROFLMAO> > Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace > would exist in North America cause America lost. That's another irritant for Canadians, albeit a minor one. The US had some successes in the War of 1812, most notably some startling and surprising victories in naval battles and the destruction of the Indian Confederacy that Tecumseh was trying to lead. However, in 1815 the news of the victory at the Battle of New Orleans and of the war's cessation arrived in the US at the same time giving Americans the false impression that they had won the war. His name escapes me but the author who wrote Gods and Generals has written several other historical novels. In the novel about the Mexican War he refers to Winfield Scott's victory at Lundy's Lane (Niagara Falls ON) in 1814. Winfield Scott certainly promoted it as a victory but the evidence is overwhelming that he was defeated. The American forces left the field in some disarray. British casualties were somewhat higher than American casualties but that was largely due to a major friendly fire incident. Otherwise their formations remained intact and they advanced afterwards. Considering that American forces invaded Canada and were driven back it requires pretty creative accounting to consider that a victory. If you look at the battles fought on Canadian soil in the War of 1812 then the Americans had two victories (Longwoods in 1813 and Chipawa in 1814). OTOH British/Canadian/Indian forces won victories in 1812 at Detroit (without firing a shot) and Queenston Heights (Pyrrhic victory due to the loss of Isaac Brock). In 1813 they defeated the Americans at Stoney Creek, Crysler's Farm, and Chateaugay. In 1814 we have Lundy's Lane. The victories of the BCI forces are all significant because they resulted in invading American forces being repelled and returning to the US. The only way that Canadians can view the War of 1812 is as a victory for the British led forces in Canada. The fact that some notable authors and many Americans in general see it otherwise is baffling. > > Heinlein might approve but the result of the war of 1812 was that peace > > would exist in North America cause America lost. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cessation arrived in the US at the same time giving Americans the false > impression that they had won the war. True. Instead of being chastised by the failures in Canada they were emboldened by the news that US forces had repelled the British at New Orleans. A meaningless battle but a victory nevertheless. Many don¹t realize the importance this had on the collective American pride. > His name escapes me but the author who wrote Gods and Generals has > written several other historical novels. In the novel about the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > invaded Canada and were driven back it requires pretty creative > accounting to consider that a victory. You might find this interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lundy's_Lane ³Like the overall war, there is some dispute about the actual outcome of the battle. Canadians will say, based upon General Drummond's report that the British held the field, that the Americans retreated. Americans will say the British retreated during the night, but took the position back when the Americans retreated due to lack of supplies in the morning. Evidence compiled by Donald E. Graves, a Canadian historian employed at the Directorate of History, Department of National Defence Canada, provides what is likely the most complete and unbiased interpretation of the battle to date and appears to support the American argument. In summary, Graves argues that General Drummond failed to utilize skirmish pickets to protect his guns which were consequently captured by the Americans. The American force therefore appears to have won a pyrrhic victory, having captured the devastating British artillery and forcing the British to withdraw from the heights after failing to recapture their guns. In retrospect to the actual war, however, the British may also claim a victory, as they had driven the American army away from Fort George, and inflicted so many casualties that they could no longer mount a major attack. However, Drummond subsequently suffered a heavy defeat at the Siege of Fort Erie, which again reversed the odds, and might have been disastrous for the British had not Jacob Brown not been succeeded in command by the more cautious American Major General George Izard. The battle may therefore be declared as a narrow American tactical victory and a questionable British strategic victory.² > If you look at the battles fought on Canadian soil in the War of 1812 > then the Americans had two victories (Longwoods in 1813 and Chipawa in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > for the British led forces in Canada. The fact that some notable > authors and many Americans in general see it otherwise is baffling. For America it was at best a draw. Joe SignatureHow many nits would a nitpicker pick if a nitpicker could pick nits? "JJS" wrote ...... > For America it was at best a draw. I'd buy draw (but require the admission of a few significant caveats.....) 1) The British quit-claimed and departed West Florida, a significant "beachhead" by which unrest among Southern Indian tribes was fostered, sponsored, equipped and funded. 2) Obviously, although the treaty had already been signed, Pakenham didn't know it, and his troops, many of them hardened regulars with substantial experience in campaigns against the Corsican Tyrant, were not deployed to the Mouth of the Mississippi asa training exercise. The expedition was to occupy the Lower River and seal it off completely. Again, the agreement which ended the war renounced any British claims and forsook any future attempts to prevent US Westward Expansion (which is what Pakenham was there to do). 3) Since Yorktown, Brtitish policy in Canada had involved almost constant attempts to induce and stimulate conflict with the civilian population of the US. From the OHio Valley to the Western tip of Lake Superior, Great Britain had essentially sponsored and funded a "War by Terror", a veritable Hezbollah of Native American groups for whom Western expansion by the US was tantamount to dispossession, eviction and death. The British accorded the Indians no more status than did the US government. Thet were simply cheaper, subject to deniability and more effective than a couple of regiments of regulars and a good quartermaster department. The end of the war brought the end of a policy which had gone on for 3 decades, and because of which substantial blood had been shed. A small as yet unimportant nation (with a tiny army anda navy smaller than any one of a half dozen squadrons the RN maintained on station abraod) agreed to little more than not to invade Canada, while Great Britain in essence acceded to US claims across the Continent (except for some minor Border adjustments in the Northwest) and in practice halted what had been a constant expansionist effort, "spreading the Empire" in the Americas, North, South and Central. The RN quit boarding US mercant ships in search of deserters, and the status accorded US interests in enclaves in which the British had traditionally worked to exclude foreign interests moved from "uncomfortable" to the eqivalent of today's "most favored nation". That's better than kissing your sister as Darrell Royal used to refer to ties. After all, if Benedict Arnold and General Montgomery couldn't make it up the street in Quebec City all those years ago, and the US Army of 1812-1815 was an unlikely candidate to "conquer" Canada, even a Canada denuded of British regulars. Given the performance of the US Army in 1845-6, it was no more likely to have been successful invading the North then (and the Canadians could have probably recruited an enormous St. Patrick's battalion, certainl;y larger than the Mexicans could field). I suspect that among the wiser of US politicians, there were enough who understaood that Canada would have been a really, big, cold, tough nut to crack, much less consume. TMO TMO > "JJS" wrote ...... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > attempts to prevent US Westward Expansion (which is what Pakenham was there > to do). Britain never had any claims in that area to begin with. It was the Louisiana Purchase area. Pakenham's ill-fated expedition was not intended to get a lot of land the British didn't want- after all they had exiled the Acadians to there 60 years earlier. The British were trying to win the war. > 3) Since Yorktown, Brtitish policy in Canada had involved almost constant > attempts to induce and stimulate conflict with the civilian population of > the US. From the OHio Valley to the Western tip of Lake Superior, Great > Britain had essentially sponsored and funded a "War by Terror", a veritable > Hezbollah of Native American groups for whom Western expansion by the US was > tantamount to dispossession, eviction and death. This is largely untrue. It was certainly stated as a cause for war but there is no evidence to support it. >The British accorded the > Indians no more status than did the US government. Thet were simply > cheaper, subject to deniability and more effective than a couple of > regiments of regulars and a good quartermaster department. The end of the > war brought the end of a policy which had gone on for 3 decades, and because > of which substantial blood had been shed. The Indians got nothing out of the war but the British only engaged them to help repel American invasion of Canada. > A small as yet unimportant nation (with a tiny army anda navy smaller than > any one of a half dozen squadrons the RN maintained on station abraod) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > constant expansionist effort, "spreading the Empire" in the Americas, North, > South and Central. There's no evidence to support that they did any such thing between the end of the American Revolution and the War of 1812. Britain had its hands tied with France from 1792 on. > The RN quit boarding US mercant ships in search of > deserters, Of course the Napoleonic Wars were over at the time or close to it so it wasn't really a major concession. > and the status accorded US interests in enclaves in which the > British had traditionally wor |
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