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History Forum / General / British History / September 2006



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Brtitain and its diverse inhabitants

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JB - 23 Sep 2006 05:50 GMT
I'm reading about the peoples who migrated to Britain in the early Middle
Ages. I used to think of the Brits as one people but later learned the Brits
were invaded and conqured by quite a number of people: the Romans, the
Saxons, Normans, and various Vikings.  (The French Normans were actually
Vikings that had settled in Normandy.) It seems native Brits had a devil of
a time protecting their borders for at least a thousand years or so. All th
knights and castles came after the Vikings but would have offered scant
protection against the fearsome longboats, which could navigate ocean or
river with ease. We are really not sure why the Viking raids suddenly
stopped sometime around the 10th century or so. They had invaded at will
nearly every city and monestary of England and the continent. In some places
Vikings had drained cities of all currency. Use of money had to be
abandoned, or maybe that was done on purpose so the Vikings wouldn't have
anything to carry away. Vikings left a mark on the English language,
particularly in the way of nautical terms, and their alphabet was somehow
related to the Greek or Roman I believe. The Vikings even traded with Islam,
sometimes selling war captives to Bagdad as slaves. I have to wonder how
brutal these raids were, whether there was any semblance of civility. It
seems however that the Vikings knew there was more to be plundered by not
destroying their victims too completely because then they could return later
and plunder again and again.

Of course, the plundering was going on everywhere except places like Papua
New Guinea. Ironically, countries that got plundered a lot tended to advance
faster in later years, at least in many cases. New Guinea suffered from a
lack of cross polination.  Another irony is that the Viking conquests help
unite Britain into a country.

Cheers for the USA,
John

ps. I could sure use a Guiness stout right now.
William Black - 23 Sep 2006 17:21 GMT
> All th
> knights and castles came after the Vikings but would have offered scant
> protection against the fearsome longboats, which could navigate ocean or
> river with ease. We are really not sure why the Viking raids suddenly
> stopped sometime around the 10th century or so.

Stamford Bridge showed exactly why the Viking raids stopped.

The communications systems and the central government became organised
enough to get soldiers there and destroy their raid.

Now you can tell me how Vikings would have stopped medieval period heavy
cavalry.

No long weapons,  their spears have six foot shafts and leaf shaped blades
and so not suitable for use against armoured men,  no bows in large numbers
and what they had wouldn't penetrate mail never mind a harness of plates,
their swords are too short to engage cavalry.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

JB - 23 Sep 2006 20:41 GMT
Thanks William for pointing out the Viking's weaponry was eventually
outclassed. I'm not familiar with Stamford Brdige but may look it up. Let me
say I'm far from expert. I am getting my knowledge of this period from
professor Philip Daileader:

http://www.teach12.com/store/professor.asp?ID=166

whose course I'm listening to. He seems to be saying that the Viking raids
ended before the age of castles and knighthoods and states that we are not
really sure why. You pointed out that advancements to armor and weapons were
part of the reason, a point he didn't raise.. If the Vikings had been forced
to transport heavy weapons, they would probably have lost their advantage of
extrermely mobile surprise attacks. The centralized control is exactly what
was needed to stop the raids, as you say, but that was a long time coming
apparently. Vikings helped bring on a centralized control. Another strategy
was to employ Vikings to fight Vikings, which is what happened with Rollo,
of the Songs of Rollo, or whatever. Very relevant to the modern age where
people are still having to constantly relarn how to cope with extreme
adversity. Civilization is a hardy plant but it can only withstand so many
raids before it dries up and blows away, to be replaced by tribalism. Much
as we may dread it, centralized control is very necessary to glue
civilization together.

John

>> All th
>> knights and castles came after the Vikings but would have offered scant
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and what they had wouldn't penetrate mail never mind a harness of plates,
> their swords are too short to engage cavalry.
John Cartmell - 23 Sep 2006 21:55 GMT
> Thanks William for pointing out the Viking's weaponry was eventually
> outclassed. I'm not familiar with Stamford Brdige but may look it up. Let me
> say I'm far from expert. I am getting my knowledge of this period from
> professor Philip Daileader:

> http://www.teach12.com/store/professor.asp?ID=166

> whose course I'm listening to. He seems to be saying that the Viking raids
> ended before the age of castles and knighthoods and states that we are not
> really sure why.

As your lecturer has the answer within that comment I don't understand his
reluctance to name it. If you ask about the last thing that happened before
"the age of castles and knighthoods" in England then the answer is Stamford
Bridge. The Vikings may have been wary of further conflict after taking home
the small bits of their warriors in far less ships than set out (24 out of
200).

[Snip]

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a.spencer3 - 24 Sep 2006 10:04 GMT
> > Thanks William for pointing out the Viking's weaponry was eventually
> > outclassed. I'm not familiar with Stamford Brdige but may look it up. Let me
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the small bits of their warriors in far less ships than set out (24 out of
> 200).

But diverted/weakened Harry's lot (also interlopers of course) enough for
another load of Vikings to win!

Surreyman
JB - 25 Sep 2006 02:53 GMT
Right. Poor Harold, after sending those Vikings back home, the few who
survived, getting an arrow in the eye three weeks later in the Battle of
Hastings! How quickly those turning points do occur.

We moderns now enjoy a wonderfully rich English language full of multiple
synonyms etc., all thanks to the many guests England was accomodating from
around 100 BC to 1100 AD.

JB

> But diverted/weakened Harry's lot (also interlopers of course) enough for
> another load of Vikings to win!
>
> Surreyman
nightjar - 25 Sep 2006 08:20 GMT
...
> We moderns now enjoy a wonderfully rich English language full of multiple
> synonyms etc., all thanks to the many guests England was accomodating from
> around 100 BC to 1100 AD.

A lot of the diversity of modern English comes from the wide range of
languages and cultures found in the British Empire.

Colin Bignell
a.spencer3 - 23 Sep 2006 19:23 GMT
> I'm reading about the peoples who migrated to Britain in the early Middle
> Ages. I used to think of the Brits as one people but later learned the Brits
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Cheers for the USA,

Addoed at 'r Saesneg!

Surreyman
 
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