I was watching a tv program "battlefield detectives" (History channel on
Canadian TV), in which they insinuated that the English (or Welsh)
archers at Agincourt had little or no impact. It stated that the English
arrows were made of cheap iron and could not penetrate the French armour
made of steel. Their (the tv program) theory was that the French cavalry
was beaten back by the archers who inflicted wounds on the horses and
the French knights on foot just got bogged down in the mud where the
battlefield narrows causing a 'pile-up' in the bottleneck with the same
results that one can see today in huge tight crowds such as at soccer
matches and concerts etc. I know that the French thought it was going to
be a cake-walk and that many of their knights wanted to fight on foot so
they could easier capture and ransom the English knights and king (more
difficult than being on horseback and having to somehow clamber down in
the middle of a battle to take their prize without some other
unscrupulous bugger on foot nipping in and taking their prize).
Now I have quite a bit of trouble believing all this. Sure the French
knights on foot did become bogged down and thousands died due to
suffocation or drowning in the liquidy mud. But you can't tell me that 5
thousand or so longbow archers, each unleashing approx 8 to 10 arrows a
minute (50 to 55 thousand arrows a minute) did not have a dramatic
effect and did not take their toll. I was also suspicious of the longbow
they used for test purposes, when he drew it back it only came to the
tip of his nose. That I am sure is not a Welsh longbow. As far as I can
remember it was a 'mighty' bow that needed a lot of strength just to
draw it (the guy in the test as at least 60 and was about 160lbs
dripping wet) never mind raise and aim it, and do it again and again.
Anyone else see this or a like minded program. What were/are your
thoughts, whether you saw it or not.
Cheers,
William.
kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 29 Nov 2003 10:34 GMT
> Anyone else see this or a like minded program. What were/are your
> thoughts, whether you saw it or not.
Not seen the program but it sounds simplistic. For a start the French
were not fighting on foot to make it easier to take captives.
Experience at Crecy and Poitiers had proved that cavalry was far to
vulnerable to longbow fire for a mass attack.
As a result at Agincourt the French had two small detachments of
cavalry who attempted to ride down the archers and dismounted the rest
of their force. This had to be done far enough away from the archers
to allow the French to organise which left them with a long walk.
Without the archers the French would all have stayed mounted and
attempted to ride the English down.
It is doubtful that the longbow could penetrate plate at anything but
short range. However there was always the possibility of hitting a
joint and it forced the French to keep their visors closed. Field
plate may only have weighed in the region of 60lbs or so but it was
notoriously badly ventilated and with the visor down very limited
vision. Also the arrow storm produced the same result as rain on
sheep. The people on the edge of the column tend to crowd towards the
centre helping to cause the column to bunch. Finally once the column
was halted the archers attacked the flanks with hand-hand weapons.
Ken Young
kenney@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
Vaughan Sanders - 29 Nov 2003 11:38 GMT
> I was watching a tv program "battlefield detectives" (History channel on
> Canadian TV), in which they insinuated that the English (or Welsh)
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Cheers,
> William.
How would they explain the Battle of the Herrings.
http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/rouvray.htm
Also do a google for the Warwick Archer, he would agree that a bodkin
would not penetrate plate armour at any great range. But a hail would
take a knight off his horse, and of course the horse was vulnerable.
Also the hail of arrows acted like a tank trap, the horses couldn't get
through the ones that just stuck in the ground.
Do you get Meet the Ancestors on the History channel?, Julian Richards
on the Towton Archers is the one to see on this subject. Claims of 6
arrows in the air simultaneously, mean a mighty powerful bow pulled very
quickly, this program suggest from forensic evidence, that it was the
archer and not the bow that was the secret weapon of the English.
Jamie