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History Forum / General / British History / February 2007Outwith -- Useful Word
Outwith -- Useful Word DSH "Robert Peffers." <peffers50@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:F_GdnQWCyO1xc0zYRVnysAA@bt.com... > I can tell you this - the Glasgow football sectarianism has been > responsible for quite a bit of the decline of Scottish football, > both inside the Glasgow area and outwith it. || Outwith -- Useful Word || [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] ||| Fife, ||| Scotland, (UK). Get a life Heinz I have this vision of you as a guy with no legs who never goes outside and is sat in a wheelchair trawling Usenet 23 hours a day.  Signature"A horse a horse, my kingdom for a horse". I haven't had a winner for six months. The Count > Outwith -- Useful Word Almost as good as 'outside'. Surreyman >>Outwith -- Useful Word > > Almost as good as 'outside'. Yup. Or "beyond". Indeed... As in: "Throw that ragamuffin pogue outwith!" DSH >>>Outwith -- Useful Word >>> >> Almost as good as 'outside'. > > Yup. Or "beyond". >>>>Outwith -- Useful Word >>> >>>Almost as good as 'outside'. >> >>Yup. Or "beyond". > Indeed... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > DSH No. As in "That ragamuffin is outside/beyond the perimiter fence". Fair Enough. DSH >>>>>Outwith -- Useful Word >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > No. As in "That ragamuffin is outside/beyond the perimiter fence". >>>>>Outwith -- Useful Word >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >No. As in "That ragamuffin is outside/beyond the perimiter fence". You really should stick to things you know about. The Scots Leid isn't one of them. Outwith,(or outwi) is usually seen in this context: Outwith the United States (outside or apart from) "Furth" is a common word for beyond. "Furth of the Border". One useful distinction from English is that many words starting in English with "be" start with an "a" in Scots. By the way, this is Border Scots and may vary in Central Scotland or Aberdeen Scots Beyond - Ayont Behind - Ahint or Aback Before - Afore Below - Ablow (the spelling is correct) "A" words usually change their form: Above - Abune/Aboun Aloof - Aback At a shy distance - Abeigh Abroad - Abread Scots is a language in its own right, so the vocabulary is not unlike Dutch vs. German, i.e. similar looking words, but often with slightly different meanings. People often remark on how easily Gaels switch from Gaelic to English, depending on the audience. The same is true of Scots, so both groups are in reality bilingual. The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. snipped a lot of fun stuff > Scots is a language in its own right, I believe it would count as a "dialect" although I know the scots are sensitive on the issue "At the end of the day there is no 'scientific' way to prove whether Scots is a language or a dialect. It boils down to a body's personal opinions and prejudices. We could argue about this until the cows come home - or in Scots: Till the kye comes hame." http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/lang.htm :-) True story When I teach in Scotland the students are often fire fighters. The speech is shall we say "thick". When I can't understand them I point to my hearing aids and remind them that I have a hearing problem. Teh second time they routinely speak in a more "standard" English, which I can comprehend. I understand what they are saying and no one's sentiments are disturbed. They made me watch 8 hours of Rab Nesbitt before they let me teach. The best line was when Rab's chum says "on a good day you could Waste for Scotland" I use the line to explain to my US students why cultural studies are important for engineers. No one in the US understands the joke even if they understand the words Vince >Outwith -- Useful Word > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> responsible for quite a bit of the decline of Scottish football, >> both inside the Glasgow area and outwith it. Another useful word is "anent". It means "concerning". Thus in Scottish law reports one might see: "Anent being drunk in a public place..." Then there is "forbye". It means "furthermore" or "moreover". Scots has some very useful short and to us, vividly descriptive words. The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. >>Outwith -- Useful Word >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Scots has some very useful short and to us, vividly descriptive words. Numpty is another good one. I came across se'enight in an old newspaper report the other day. A bit like fortnight ....only shorter. Definitions? DSH >>>Outwith -- Useful Word >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I came across se'enight in an old newspaper report the other day. A > bit like fortnight ....only shorter. >Definitions? > >DSH >> Numpty is another good one. >> >> I came across se'enight in an old newspaper report the other day. A >> bit like fortnight ....only shorter. The online Dictionary of the Scots Language is your friend NUMPTY, n. A stupid person, an idiot Sevenyght, Sen(n)ight, n. Also: senight, sewennight, seavennight, seannight, synnycht, sennet, sinnet. [ME and e.m.E sefennnahht (Orm), seuen nyght (Chaucer), senny?t (c1420), sennet (c1440), sennight (1549), OE seofon nihta.] Seven (days and) nights, a week >Definitions? > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> I came across se'enight in an old newspaper report the other day. A >> bit like fortnight ....only shorter. Fortnight is fourteen nights and commonly heard. Sennight is seven nights but fell into disuse in the 19th/early 20th century and was replaced by "week". By the way, it was used in both Scotland and England, as is fortnight, but in Scotland was pronounced "sennicht". In Scots a night is "nicht" or "necht" depending on the region, and in the far north east (Caithness, etc.) is often pronounced "Nycht" - the "y" representing the sound in "nice". I may say that the Scots of Aberdeen is pretty much incomprehensible to many Scots. We have at least one poster here whose first language it is and we did have one who was from Orkney, where, as in Shetland, the local dialect is heavily salted with Old Norse words. There is a fair degree of psychological separation there, with the locals often referring to the mainland as "Scotland", implying a separate country. Not unlike Heligoland off the German coast, where many people spoke a form of English until about 100 years ago - it was an English possession, owned by Queen Victoria, as I recollect; part of her German family's land holdings. I once had a notion to write a book about the dialects of the North Sea. I quietly let the idea slide after counting them - well over a hundred and not far from two hundred. It will have to wait for another lifetime... The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. || On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:27:09 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca> || wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] || I came across se'enight in an old newspaper report the other day. A || bit like fortnight ....only shorter. The favourite word of Mr Alan Brazil the former Scottish international footballer and now radio presenter with Talksport. Signature"A horse a horse, my kingdom for a horse". I haven't had a winner for six months. The Count > >>Outwith -- Useful Word > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I came across se'enight in an old newspaper report the other day. A > bit like fortnight ....only shorter. They haven't discovered 'pay' yet .......... Surreyman Indeed it does. Correct Pronunciations? These below and these: Balvenie Islay Laphroaig Caol Ila DSH >>Outwith -- Useful Word >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > The Highlander >Indeed it does. > >Correct Pronunciations? Firstly, these are not Scots words, but Gaelic. >These below and these: > >Balvenie Bahl-venny/Balvaynie, Stress on "venny" Gaelic - Baile Bhainidh - "Beathan's farm", >Islay - I-lay (as in I lay in bed. Stess on "I"). Gaelic - Ìle (Ee-leh). >Laphroaig - Lafroyg (Stress on "froyg") Gaelic - "beautiful hollow by the broad bay" >Caol Ila - c**l-eela - the sound of Caol C**l is said like "curl" without the "r" Gaelic for Sound of Islay - a sound in this instance being a sea passage between the Isles of Islay and Jura. >DSH > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> The Highlander The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. >>Indeed it does. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Bahl-venny/Balvaynie, Stress on "venny" > Gaelic - Baile Bhainidh - "Beathan's farm", Which pronunciation is preferred by the people who make Balvenie? >>Islay - I-lay (as in I lay in bed. Stess on "I"). > Gaelic - Ìle (Ee-leh). There seem to be some alternate pronunciations for Islay too -- right? What do the people who live there say? >>Laphroaig - Lafroyg (Stress on "froyg") > Gaelic - "beautiful hollow by the broad bay" O.K. >>Caol Ila - c**l-eela - the sound of Caol > C**l is said like "curl" without the "r" As in cul de sac -- or cool? > Gaelic for Sound of Islay - a sound in this instance being a sea > passage between the Isles of Islay and Jura. O.K. And -- _anent_? Thank you. DSH >>>Indeed it does. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Which pronunciation is preferred by the people who make Balvenie? What an extraordinary question! I haven't the faintest idea and wouldn't give a damn. Do you worry about how employees at MacDonalds pronounce the company name? >>>Islay - I-lay (as in I lay in bed. Stess on "I"). >> Gaelic - Ìle (Ee-leh). > >There seem to be some alternate pronunciations for Islay too -- right? What >do the people who live there say? Some locals call it I-lah, I believe. >>>Laphroaig - Lafroyg (Stress on "froyg") >> Gaelic - "beautiful hollow by the broad bay" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >As in cul de sac -- or cool? No. Say CURL. Now say it again, but this time omit the "R". It's the same vowel sound as is in Fur or Cur. >> Gaelic for Sound of Islay - a sound in this instance being a sea >> passage between the Isles of Islay and Jura. > >O.K. > >And -- _anent_? Anent means "concerning /in the matter of". >Thank you. My life is thine. >DSH The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. > On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:59:53 -1000, "D. Spencer Hines" > <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > wouldn't give a damn. Do you worry about how employees at MacDonalds [sic] > pronounce the company name? You gave two alternate pronunciations. I'm asking which one is preferred by the people who make the Scotch. Of COURSE it's relevant. People who work for McDonald's work in many locations and in many Nations. Inaccurate comparison. >>>>Islay - I-lay (as in I lay in bed. Stess on "I"). >>> Gaelic - Ìle (Ee-leh). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Some locals call it I-lah, I believe. Yes, so we TWO pronunciations here too. >>>>Laphroaig - Lafroyg (Stress on "froyg") >>> Gaelic - "beautiful hollow by the broad bay" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > No. Say CURL. Now say it again, but this time omit the "R". > It's the same vowel sound as is in Fur or Cur. Sounds like cul de sac was a good choice. >>> Gaelic for Sound of Islay - a sound in this instance being a sea >>> passage between the Isles of Islay and Jura. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Anent means "concerning /in the matter of". Not meaning, I knew that -- but pronunciation. Thanks again. Keep working on educating us about Scotland and the Scots -- you're doing a damned good job of it, so far. DSH >>Thank you. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The views expressed in this post are > not necessarily those of The Highlander. >>>>>Caol Ila - c**l-eela - the sound of Caol >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sounds like cul de sac was a good choice. Cul (as in cul-de-sac) is pronounced nearer to "cool", only with a shortened oo. You "cull" birds, pronounced to sound like the "uh" in "gull" or "gut". Scots say "cuh-rl" for "curl". English say "curl" to rhyme with "girl". (Scots say "guh-rl".) I can't make out if he's suggesting the Scots or English pronounciation. Either way, it sounds like he's saying to pronounce it either way, but not to pronounce the "r". Possibly the Scots way, to rhyme with "cull", above, as the English don't pronounce the "r". >>>>>> Caol Ila - c**l-eela - the sound of Caol >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Scots say "cuh-rl" for "curl". English say "curl" to rhyme with "girl". > (Scots say "guh-rl".) no they say "lassie" :-) vince >>>>>>> Caol Ila - c**l-eela - the sound of Caol >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > :-) > vince "quine" actually :-) Neb snip >>> Scots say "cuh-rl" for "curl". English say "curl" to rhyme with "girl". >>> (Scots say "guh-rl".) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Neb From informal observations; 'quine' exists in North East - I've encountered the word in Tyneside and in 'The Brock' (= Fraserburgh) in North East Scotland. [it's almost pure Viking speak] In Liverpool the softer sounding 'Queenie" used to be used to refer to young girls. Interestingly; the separate words of King and Queen - nominating the Sovereign- derive from the Scandinavian Kong and Kvine (King and Woman/Wife) as opposed to the Scandinavian Kong:Koningen ... . SignatureBrian > snip > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Sovereign- derive from the Scandinavian Kong and Kvine (King and Woman/Wife) > as opposed to the Scandinavian Kong:Koningen ... . King and queen derive from Old English "cyning, cyng" and "cwén". They were part of the English language before the Vikings arrived with their related words. Old English "cwén" meant both woman and queen. Old Norse "kona, kvenna-" meant only woman; the Viking word for queen was "dróttning". Alan >> snip >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Alan Tak! SignatureBrian >>>snip >>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Tak! Tak? Rozumiem. Yeah, and I have seen all the Polish road signs which are springing up all over the UK. Daddy would have felt so at home. But he would have wondered what the hell was going on. He came to England to be an Englishman. The Pole he left behind remained in abeyance until his dying years. Whilst perusing Usenet on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:58:59 GMT, I read these words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : >>>>snip >>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >Tak? Svenska ! >Rozumiem. Yeah, and I have seen all the Polish road signs which are >springing up all over the UK. Daddy would have felt so at home. But he >would have wondered what the hell was going on. > He came to England to be an Englishman. Nudge, nudge, say no more ! -- jjj >>snip >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Old English "cwén" meant both woman and queen. Old Norse "kona, kvenna-" > meant only woman; the Viking word for queen was "dróttning". Hey! We're on topic at last. (for shm) There is indeed nothing obscene about _quine_ is there? It is both singular and plural? DSH > snip > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Sovereign- derive from the Scandinavian Kong and Kvine (King and > Woman/Wife) as opposed to the Scandinavian Kong:Koningen ... . > There is indeed nothing obscene about _quine_ is there? > > It is both singular and plural? Nothing obscene at all. It is singular. quines is plural with quinies relating to younger girls Neb Thank you. Good Word. Widely used in Scotland? DSH >> There is indeed nothing obscene about _quine_ is there? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Neb > Thank you. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > DSH Confined to the North-East of Scotland. Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and Moray mainly. Neb > > Thank you. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Confined to the North-East of Scotland. Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and Moray > mainly. Aye, with the loons. :-) Deirdre Interesting. Some of my Scot Ancestors come from there. DSH >> > Thank you. >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Deirdre > Interesting. > > Some of my Scot Ancestors come from there. Don't you mean Scottish? > DSH > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >>Deirdre >> Interesting. >> >> Some of my Scot Ancestors come from there. > > Don't you mean Scottish? Scotch? >>> Interesting. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Scotch? IIRC the plural of people from Scotland is Scots, while Scottish is the adjective for food and other objects. e.g. Scottish music, literature etc. There are exceptions of course. Scots Guards Scots law. (although both me be considered related to the people Scotch of course is in a class by itself. "Scottish is the full, original form of the adjective. Scots is an old Scottish variant of the form, while Scotch is an English contraction of Scottish that at one time also came into use in Scotland (as in Robert Burns’s “O thou, my Muse! guid auld Scotch drink! “) but subsequently fell into disfavor. To some extent these facts can serve as a guide in choosing among the many variant forms of related words, such as Scot, Scotsman or Scotswoman, or Scotchman or Scotchwoman, for one of the people of Scotland; Scots, (the) Scotch, or, rarely, (the) Scottish for the people of Scotland; and Scots, Scotch, or Scottish for the dialect of English spoken in Scotland. The forms based on Scotch are English and disfavored in Scotland, while those involving the full form Scottish tend to be more formal. In the interest of civility, forms involving Scotch are best avoided in reference to people. But there is no sure rule for referring to things, since the history of variation in the use of these words has also left many expressions in which the choice is fixed, such as Scotch broth, Scotch whisky, Scottish rite, and Scots Guards." http://www.bartleby.com/64/C006/059.html Or you can get off "scot free" Vince >>>> Interesting. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Vince The Gaelic word for Scotland is "Alba" and a Scots person is "Albannach" The spelling is misleading to an English eye - "Alba" has two pronunciations - some Gaels say "AH-luppa"; some say "ah-LAPP-ah". "Albanach" is said "ah-LAPP-annach - ch as in "loch" or "Och!" The word is almost certainly related to the The Alps, although there is some dispute about Albania and Alba in Italy; both areas traversed by the Celts - or Keltoi, as the Greeks called them, on the trek through Europe to Galicia in Spain, and in the case of the Welsh, it is believed, Portugal, whose present day inhabitants they resemble; black hair, etc. There is also some evidence to suggest that the Welsh came to Europe through Egypt and along the south shores of the Mediterranean. Portugal translates quite comfortably as a Gaelic phrase "Port a'Ghàidheil", meaning "Haven of Gaels". "Gal" place names are frequently associated with the Keltoi - Galicia in Spain as mentioned above, Gaul, the Roman name for ancient France and Galizia in Poland. Gall is also a word meaning foreign in some languages, such as "Pays de Galles" - the modern French name for Wales - "Land of foreigners". And of course the Keltoi defeated the Romans when they arrived in Italy, a subjugation commemorated by the phrase "Vae Victis! - Woe to the vanquished," quoted by Livy (59 BC to AD 17), History, v. xlviii. 9 of Brennus, a chief of the Gauls in 390 BC when arranging terms of peace. When the Romans complained that the Gauls were using excessive weights in measuring the amount of gold the Romans were to pay, Brennus threw his sword among the weights, exclaiming, "Vae victis," meaning that he, not they, was dictating the terms. There are also known Celtic settlements in Austria and Germany, parts of the Tyrol in southern Germany and northern Italy - the German word "Reich" is believed to be a corruption of the Gaelic "Rìogachd" a kingdom, from "Rìgh" (say Ree) a King, which is clearly a Latin borrowing and seen in place names like Portree (Port Rìgh - King's Harbour) on the Isle of Skye. Another major and long-term settlement is in Galata in Turkey where Ankara stand today. King Midas' grave was recently uncovered by American archeologists; the grave goods being clearly Celtic. St. Paul's Letter to the Galatians was probably to that group of Gaels. A district of Istanbul is called Galata. More speculative, but still being explored, are Keltoi links to the Tokharian languages in Asia and also a possible settlement in Ulumqi in China - Chinese records speak of the horse chariot being introduced in the 6th century BC by a people who sound very much like Celts and bodies discoeverd buried in the Gobi nearby are pefectly mummified and have Celtic traits, like red hair and beards. The Declaration of Arbroath, drawn up in Arbroath Abbey on the 6th April 1320, is quite specific about where the Scots originated: "... we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner". From what one can gather, Greater Scythia seems to have lain somewhere close to the Romanian-Ukrainian border divided by the Dnister river; although in those days not the Roman colony which Romania finally became, leaving behind the Romanian language, which is easily understood by modern Italians, apart from a later input of Slav words. The Scythians seem to have been the Hell's Angels of their day and apparently would rent themselves out to other nations to fight their battles; a Scottish tradition until recent times. Speculation is that the potential Celtic settlement in China was the result of the Chinese hiring the Scythians/possible Celts to clear out wandering Mongol tribes eating into China's territory, and the Scythians did the job, liked the area and decided to settle there permanently, to the chagrin of the Chinese. It should be remembered that by this time the horse had been adopted as transport and from other sources, (the appearance of the Goddess Astarte's statuettes in France and China at the same time) I can tell you that a horse ride from the Atlantic to China took about three months, so mobility was not a problem. Indeed, by the first century BC, Rome was already importing silks from China; the perfect garment for a hot, sweaty climate. The Celtic languages are Indo-European. although considered the most distant of them all and there is argument as to whether the Keltoi originally spoke a non-Celtic languages or languages, but later switched to a Celtic-style language, bringing the grammar and other features of their original language into the new language; just as Irish English is heavily laden with Irish Gaelic constructions adopted into the local versions of English and also into the speech patterns of the southern United States. There is certainly is no reason to doubt that the putative Keltoi could have roamed east just as easily as west, and we have no evidence to suggest that they didn't. For me, what is so fascinating is that as new discoveries are made, we are clearly getting closer to our roots. For example, certain grammatical usages in the Celtic langauges are also found in the Semitic languages, and of course in the case of King Midas et al, the next tribes over were probably Semitic, as the Turks were still living in Eastern Asia at that point. Mostly speculation - but fascinating speculation. How one longs for a Celtic Homer to have jotted it all down in detail - the Greeks did make notes about what they called the Keltoi, and some of our more valuable leads come from them. So are we a lost tribe of Israel? I doubt it, but a lot of people used to think we were during Queen Victoria's reign. Anent Queen Victoria (I use "anent" to give Mr. Hines a wee thrill!) she was extremely aware of her social position among the world's rulers. An approved manual of table manners for her day noted that when seating visiting Royalty with titles like "The Chosen of God", an English duke took precedence... After Prince Albert died, one of her ladies in waiting tried to reassure her that she and the Prince would be united again, "in the bosum of Abraham". The Queen considered this for a moment and then said firmly, "I shall not receive Abraham!" No hoi poloi need apply! One can only imagine God knocking tentatively at the door and asking if he might come in and being told, "Come back later - Her Majesty is resting." Oddly enough, the record is clear that she was, unusually for her time, completely colour-blind as far as race was concerned. Presumably Abraham's attempts to sacrifice his son did not meet with Royal approval, despite her own sons being less than morally flawless. Indeed, when her eldest son, Prince Eddie died, a total degenerate and possible slightly unhinged, long suspected of being Jack the Ripper, a madman who killed and disembowelled prostitutes in London's East End, there was an audible sigh of relief from the Establishment of the day; while Edward VII left no lady's bed cover unturned and indeed his favourite mistress, Mrs. Keppel, was Camilla Parker-Bowles' grandmother. History does have a way of repeating itself. The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. Nonsense. Camilla's Grandmother was not quite TEN years old when Edward VII died. Camilla's GREAT-Grandmother, Alice Fredericka Edmonstone Keppel [1869-1947], a great beauty, was the mistress of Edward, Prince of Wales, (eldest son of Queen Victoria, who called him "Bertie") -- and later Edward VII -- Edward VII is Prince Charles's 2nd Great-Grandfather. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Keppel Wikipedia has the wrong death date for Alice. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum > while Edward VII left no lady's bed cover unturned and indeed his > favourite mistress, Mrs. Keppel, was Camilla Parker-Bowles' > grandmother. >>>Interesting. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Scotch? It's all very confusing. I'm a Scot. I'm Scottish. But my husband drinks Scotch. >>>>Interesting. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's all very confusing. I'm a Scot. I'm Scottish. But my husband drinks > Scotch. A trifector - or menage a trois - very kinky, Renia! - nilita Whilst perusing Usenet on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:00:49 GMT, I read these words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : >>>>Interesting. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >It's all very confusing. I'm a Scot. I'm Scottish. "Daddy came to England to be an Englishman " ? -- jjj >Whilst perusing Usenet on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:00:49 GMT, I read these >words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >-- jjj You're forgetting - bad taste is universal. The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. > Whilst perusing Usenet on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:00:49 GMT, I read these > words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "Daddy came to England to be an Englishman " ? I should have said, as a Polish war refugee, once my father had settled in England, he adopted the English culture. That was after he had adopted the Scots culture. He lived in Peebles for years while he attended Ampleforth, eventually met my mother and they married in Edinburgh where I was born and finally settled on the Holy Loch. When they heard about the impending arrival of the contraption, they sold up and moved down south, where, as I said, he became an Englishman. With a Polish accent. I'll bet he was a wonderful man and a Good Father. DSH > I should have said, as a Polish war refugee, once my father had settled in > England, he adopted the English culture. That was after he had adopted the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > arrival of the contraption, they sold up and moved down south, where, as I > said, he became an Englishman. With a Polish accent. > I'll bet he was a wonderful man and a Good Father. Indeed, he was. > DSH > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>arrival of the contraption, they sold up and moved down south, where, as I >>said, he became an Englishman. With a Polish accent. Whilst perusing Usenet on Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:37:50 GMT, I read these words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : >> Whilst perusing Usenet on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:00:49 GMT, I read these >> words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : <snipped> >>>It's all very confusing. I'm a Scot. I'm Scottish. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >in England, he adopted the English culture. That was after he had >adopted the Scots culture. You really should write this stuff down to remind yourself of what you've claimed, that way you just *might* give us the same story twice in succession ! So your *father* 'adopted' Polish > Scots > English culture ? Strange that the (admittedly few) Poles I've met in Scotland, most of whom must probably have been around your father's age, still considered themselves as Polish. >He lived in Peebles for years while he attended Ampleforth, As in 'Ampleforth, North Yorkshire, *ngland' ? That must have been handy, it's only 180 miles from Peebles. >eventually met my mother and they married in Edinburgh >where I was born and finally settled on the Holy Loch. '_Finally_settled_ ' ? Are you certain ? >When they heard about the impending arrival of the >contraption, they sold up and moved down south, >where, as I said, he became an Englishman. Ah, you weren't (certain) ! Nationality/culture appear to be something you regard as a convenient cloak in which to shroud yourself as and when circumstances dictate. When in Athens, do as the Athenians ??? -- jjj > Whilst perusing Usenet on Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:37:50 GMT, I read these > words from Renia <nowhere@nowhere.com> : [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > When in Athens, do as the Athenians ??? Why so cynical? My father never adopted Polish culture. He was Polish. At the onset of the war, he was holidaying at his aunt's estate and she, her husband, the Count, and her children and one sister immediately left the country. The other sister, my grandmother, remained in Poland with her husband and the other two children. My father never saw his father again. Yes, he always considered himself Polish, but he completely integrated himself in British society, first in Scotland and then in England. As far as my parents were concerned, they settled on the Holy Loch to stay there and raise their children. When they got wind of the impending arrival of the Polaris submarine base they reluctantly decided to sell up and leave, which we did when I was eight. You will know there was quite a substantial Polish community living in Peebles after the war and beyond. You will also know that the top Catholic public school in Britain, is Ampleforth. Where else would he be educated with the family background and connections he had? And yes, my husband and I integrate ourselves with Greek culture. We do not expect them to change their ways because there are foreigners in their midst. What did your father do during World War II, Renia -- and how old was he when it started? Was your father so Anti-American he didn't want to stay in Holy Loch when he heard our submariners were coming? He didn't want you to marry an American? American Submariners are WONDERFUL PEOPLE -- I have personal experiences of that. Those on the "boomers" -- Polaris and successor subs -- were/are particularly elite and well-educated. They were KEY PLAYERS during The Cold War -- who took a very LOW profile, by design. Surely your Father was not Pro-Russian, if he saw what they did to Poland and the Polish -- or did he see the USSR as the "Vanguard of the International Socialist-Progressive Movement"? He became a hardcore Socialist too as I recall and was a militant union steward? Or not... What made him move so far to the Left -- if his Uncle was a Polish Count?... The Social & Economic Injustice in saw in Britain? Count of what? And what did your Father think of Stalin and his successors? Cheers, DSH > Why so cynical? My father never adopted Polish culture. He was Polish. At > the onset of the war, he was holidaying at his aunt's estate and she, her [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > do not expect them to change their ways because there are foreigners in > their midst. > What did your father do during World War II, Renia -- and how old was he > when it started? He was a schoolboy aged 12 when the war started. > Was your father so Anti-American he didn't want to stay in Holy Loch when he > heard our submariners were coming? He didn't want you to marry an American? Both my parents were anti-nuclear. When we settled in England we ALL went on Ban The Bomb marches (even though I didn't understand what we were marching for). My mother even became a Greenham Common woman. > American Submariners are WONDERFUL PEOPLE -- I have personal experiences of > that. I'm sure they are and neither of my parents were against Americans themselves. My mother was also of the Old School (she also had an aunt who was a Countess) and it wasn't done to marry an American serviceman. Years later, I saw a documentary about Dunoon in the wake of the dismantling of the Polaris base. So many babies, so few fathers. During one trip to Glasgow in the 90s, a taxi driver (the founts of all knowledge) said the closure of the base resulted in a glut of purpose-built housing which were proving extremely difficult to sell at their true market value. This affected the value of the other housing stock in the area, which was dispraportionally low, causing some hardship. > Those on the "boomers" -- Polaris and successor subs -- were/are > particularly elite and well-educated. They were KEY PLAYERS during The Cold [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and the Polish -- or did he see the USSR as the "Vanguard of the > International Socialist-Progressive Movement"? He was not pro-Russian. He went up to Oxford to study Polish Law at Oriel in about 1947. The intention had been for him to return to Poland and take over his father's practice. He had to wait three months for his course to begin, wondering what was happening. Eventually, he was told the degree had been superseded by a degree in Russian Law. He applied for archaeology and history, but there were no places, so he went to the LSE and read Economics where he discovered Marx. > He became a hardcore Socialist too as I recall and was a militant union > steward? Or not... At first, he was a roaring Conservative. He even voted (illegally) for MacMillan in the 50s. Illegally, because although he had a polling card, he was not yet a British Citizen. > What made him move so far to the Left -- if his Uncle was a Polish Count?... > > The Social & Economic Injustice in saw in Britain? (sic) Something like that. The more he distanced himself from his aristocratic upbringing, the more he read and the more he observed, the more he wanted to fight for people who could not fight for themselves, as he saw it. > Count of what? You mean Count of where? Polish titles are not like English titles which include place-names in the title. > And what did your Father think of Stalin and his successors? Anyone who understands Marx (which few people do) will understand that the last thing Russia was, was Marxist. Dad was a Trotskyite. He thought Trotsky got a bad press and that Stalin and his successors weaved stories about him, much as the Tudors weaved stories about Richard III. Both of us held high hopes that Gorbachev was the best man to bring Russia out of its communist stupor. Both of us agree that the worst thing that happened in recent Russian history, was Yeltsin. Gorbachev was easing Russia out of the mire. Yeltsin was too impatient, trying to achieve all at once, and has left Russia in a mess. The job was not finished. Russia may yet resort to what she was. She is a nation used to being dictated to, whether by Tsar or President. Putin has done much to bring out the beauty of his home-town of St Petersburg and attract tourist dollars. The rest remains to be seen. > Both my parents were anti-nuclear. When we settled in England we ALL went > on Ban The Bomb marches (even though I didn't understand what we were > marching for). My mother even became a Greenham Common woman. Apparently, in retrospect, they didn't understand what they were marching for either. Having spent much of three years as part of a lesser part of the nuclear deterrent in the Med, a hostage to fortune, in retrospect I'm comfortable that the deterrent for good or evil certainly served its purpose, forestalling Soviet expansionism until the Soviet system grew old and creaky enough to collapse of its own inertia and lack of productivity. Unfortunately, today it turns out that there's not much mystery, nor even particularly complex science to the building of nuclear weapons, only vast cost and the requirement for a commitment to build them. Ahhh, but folks have short and selective memories. I recall traveling in Greece, and being unsurprised not to find any memorials to those Brits and Americans who went there (and fought and died in some numbers supporting the Greek Army) at the end of WWII to prevent a takeover by a Communist insurgency armed, trained and coordinated by the Soviets. That some of the insurgents were under the misapprehension that their's was a noble cause with a potentially noble result is sad. What would have resulted was another Rumania or Bulgaria. The grand efforts of the Left in Greece certainly secured its own rewards, the rise of the "Colonels", the reaction of the Far Right and its ability to attract the sympathy (for a while) of moderates appallled by the excesses of the Left. TMO > I'm sure they are and neither of my parents were against Americans > themselves. My mother was also of the Old School (she also had an aunt who > was a Countess) and it wasn't done to marry an American serviceman. I'm sure the outlook of families like hers contributed much to the vast migrations of Poles to the US. Just think, the American servicemen to be married could have been from South Chicago or Panna Maria, Texas, as Polish as thir brides. > Years later, I saw a documentary about Dunoon in the wake of the > dismantling of the Polaris base. So many babies, so few fathers. During [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their true market value. This affected the value of the other housing > stock in the area, which was dispraportionally low, causing some hardship. Well, in the case of sailors and the girls they impregnate, it does take two to tango, and the young ladies of Dunoon and surroundings were hardy Scots from canny families, hardly unsophisticated Third Worlders. On the other hand, from all reports available to those of us in the Navy in other home and foreign ports, Holy Loch was certainly not considered to be a duty station which offrered much opportunity for sexual recreation. The bars closed early, the Liberty Sections were small, and returnees claimed that life was relatively monastic. Putin has done much to > bring out the beauty of his home-town of St Petersburg and attract tourist > dollars. The rest remains to be seen. Petrograd is not Russia, nor is it even a window upon the great festering mass of the place. Nor is it Russia's Window on the world. Think of it as a less commercial, more artistic Orlando for adults, far from any warm beaches. Putin seems a typical Russian blend, the result of crossing an oligarch with a Byzantine bureaucrat. It's one thing to say the Russians want to be dictated to....but quite another to remember that most Russians have never known any other state or fate. Now, a relative handful of the newly wealthy combined with the self-serving governmental bureaucracy extort the populace as greatly as did any Romanov manipulate his subjects. I suspect that Trotsky, for all his seemingly admirable qualities, remains no more than one of history's mysteries, entirely unsuited for success, little more than an ineffectual dreamer, clearly unsuited for the coldly rational cynicism of real politik. His last days in Mexico were as much comedy as tragic, mysterious conspirators wandering about, most of them in the pay of one or more foreign powers, mostly illusion and little reality. > \ I suspect that > Trotsky, for all his seemingly admirable qualities, remains no more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tragic, mysterious conspirators wandering about, most of them in the pay > of one or more foreign powers, mostly illusion and little reality. Ahhhh .... but his "aventura amorosa" with Mexican painter Frida Kaldo was real ....%) - la nilita romantica ... > > \ I suspect that > > Trotsky, for all his seemingly admirable qualities, remains no more than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ahhhh .... but his "aventura amorosa" with Mexican painter Frida Kaldo was > real ....%) Kahlo. It ended messily. Kahlo crawled back to the party and recanted her flirtation. -- J/ SOTW: "Love Will Tear Us Apart" - Joy Division http://www.azcars.eu/wdfdi/index.htm >> > \ I suspect that >> > Trotsky, for all his seemingly admirable qualities, remains no more [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Kahlo. It ended messily. Kahlo crawled back to the party and recanted her > flirtation. Kahlo! Doh! I really do need a proofreader these days ...;( - nilita >>Both my parents were anti-nuclear. When we settled in England we ALL went >>on Ban The Bomb marches (even though I didn't understand what we were >>marching for). My mother even became a Greenham Common woman. > > Apparently, in retrospect, they didn't understand what they were marching > for either. Oh, yes, my parents understood exactly what they were marching for. And, indeed, while some of us may think these marchers didn't understand the deterrent nature of nuclear weapons, on the other hand, such marches did alert governments to aprehension among the people. Had these people not marched and demonstrated, governments would have gone further with more devasting results. The marchers kept government power in check. That is the value of free speech. > Having spent much of three years as part of a lesser part of > the nuclear deterrent in the Med, a hostage to fortune, in retrospect I'm > comfortable that the deterrent for good or evil certainly served its > purpose, forestalling Soviet expansionism until the Soviet system grew old > and creaky enough to collapse of its own inertia and lack of productivity. Hindsight is wonderful. When you know the end of the story, or of part of the story, it is so easy to sit back and say "we did it right". While the story is going on, however, it is not so easy to know exactly what one side or the other is plotting. > Unfortunately, today it turns out that there's not much mystery, nor even > particularly complex science to the building of nuclear weapons, only vast > cost and the requirement for a commitment to build them. I doubt there ever was mystery. Vast cost, human and financial, yes. Mystery, no. > Ahhh, but folks have short and selective memories. I recall traveling in > Greece, and being unsurprised not to find any memorials to those Brits and > Americans who went there (and fought and died in some numbers supporting the > Greek Army) at the end of WWII to prevent a takeover by a Communist > insurgency armed, trained and coordinated by the Soviets. There is a massive war cemetery just outside Athens. http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=2009000&mode=1 > That some of the > insurgents were under the misapprehension that their's was a noble cause [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm sure the outlook of families like hers contributed much to the vast > migrations of Poles to the US. Why should it? My mother was English. > Just think, the American servicemen to be > married could have been from South Chicago or Panna Maria, Texas, as Polish [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > closed early, the Liberty Sections were small, and returnees claimed that > life was relatively monastic. I imagine it was precisely because the bars closed early and there was little other entertainment that the local girls and their American boyfriends had to find something to do! > Putin has done much to > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a less commercial, more artistic Orlando for adults, far from any warm > beaches. The very point I am making. > Putin seems a typical Russian blend, the result of crossing an oligarch with > a Byzantine bureaucrat. It's one thing to say the Russians want to be > dictated to....but quite another to remember that most Russians have never > known any other state or fate. Also, the very point I am making. > Now, a relative handful of the newly wealthy > combined with the self-serving governmental bureaucracy extort the populace [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mysterious conspirators wandering about, most of them in the pay of one or > more foreign powers, mostly illusion and little reality. I couldn't say. I don't know enough about him. >> What did your father do during World War II, Renia -- and how old was he >> when it started? > > He was a schoolboy aged 12 when the war started. Did he have some war duties as a boy? Volunteer type stuff? Have you ever known any of the Polish aviators who fought in the Battle of Britain? >> Was your father so Anti-American he didn't want to stay in Holy Loch when >> he heard our submariners were coming? He didn't want you to marry an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on Ban The Bomb marches (even though I didn't understand what we were > marching for). My mother even became a Greenham Common woman. You were smarter than they. We have a number of the Ban The Bomb types in the Episcopal Church. They were/are particularly strong at Saint Andrew's Cathedral, my church in Honolulu. What these naive and misled people did not understand is that the American, British and French nuclear arsenals served to DETER Soviet and PRC aggression during The Cold War and were absolutely necessary. We've responsibly used them that way now for over 60 years -- without a Nuclear Holocaust. Non-Proliferation is the important thing now. That's why it's so important that Iran and North Korea NOT get the Bomb. The Communists, of course, did everything they could to fund, support and infiltrate these Ban The Bomb groups. I have personal knowledge of that. Many of them became just fellow-traveler adjuncts to the USSR and PRC -- Communist Fronts, both in Britain and America, as well as West Germany, France and Italy. >> American Submariners are WONDERFUL PEOPLE -- I have personal experiences >> of that. > > I'm sure they are and neither of my parents were against Americans > themselves. My mother was also of the Old School (she also had an aunt who > was a Countess) and it wasn't done to marry an American serviceman. Not even an American naval officer? <g> But a Polish naval officer would have been all right? <g> > Years later, I saw a documentary about Dunoon in the wake of the > dismantling of the Polaris base. So many babies, so few fathers. A documentary put together by British Socialists, no doubt -- who were America-Haters. > During one trip to Glasgow in the 90s, a taxi driver (the founts of all > knowledge) said the closure of the base resulted in a glut of > purpose-built housing which were proving extremely difficult to sell at > their true market value. This affected the value of the other housing > stock in the area, which was disproportionably low, causing some hardship. What else did the dismantling of the Polaris base do to the economy of Holy Loch? Lots of spending and multiplier effect lost with the departure of the United States Navy. Who is using the facilities and infrastructure now? >> Those on the "boomers" -- Polaris and successor subs -- were/are >> particularly elite and well-educated. They were KEY PLAYERS during The [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and history, but there were no places, so he went to the LSE and read > Economics where he discovered Marx. Yes, many Socialists were grown and nurtured by the LSE. I've known several of them -- totally indoctrinated with collectivist rubbish. What did he plan to do with a degree from the LSE -- be another Left-Wing academic or government bureaucrat? >> He became a hardcore Socialist too as I recall and was a militant union >> steward? Or not... > > At first, he was a roaring Conservative. He even voted (illegally) for > MacMillan in the 50s. Illegally, because although he had a polling card, > he was not yet a British Citizen. I would have voted for MacMillan too -- if I had been a legal voter. >> What made him move so far to the Left -- if his Uncle was a Polish >> Count?... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > upbringing, the more he read and the more he observed, the more he wanted > to fight for people who could not fight for themselves, as he saw it. The BEST way to do that is through Private Foundations. Look at all the wonderful work Bill and Melinda Gates are doing -- in concert with Warren Buffet. >> Count of what? > > You mean Count of where? Polish titles are not like English titles which > include place-names in the title. O.K. Count of where or what? Where were the land holdings? >> And what did your Father think of Stalin and his successors? > > Anyone who understands Marx (which few people do) will understand that the > last thing Russia was, was Marxist. Dad was a Trotskyite. He thought > Trotsky got a bad press and that Stalin and his successors weaved stories > about him, much as the Tudors weaved stories about Richard III. Yes, the old familiar saw, "Trotsky would have done it differently!" How often have I heard that in Greenwich Village, Gans's stomping grounds -- and in New Haven, Harvard Yard, Berkeley, Palo Alto, Chevy Chase, Hollywood -- and other places on the Left Coast, such as Big Sur, Oakland and Monterey. > Both of us held high hopes that Gorbachev was the best man to bring Russia > out of its communist stupor. Both of us agree that the worst thing that > happened in recent Russian history, was Yeltsin. Gorbachev was easing > Russia out of the mire. Yeltsin was too impatient, trying to achieve all > at once, and has left Russia in a mess. The job was not finished. Russia > may yet resort to what she was. Yeltsin was a likeable and congenial drunk -- just as many drunks are likeable and congenial, when half sober -- but incompetent to run a State. I have no patience with people who can't hold their liquor and still function competently. > She is a nation used to being dictated to, whether by Tsar or President. > Putin has done much to bring out the beauty of his home-town of St > Petersburg and attract tourist dollars. The rest remains to be seen. Yes, it's a beautiful city -- the name change was marvelous too. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >>>What did your father do during World War II, Renia -- and how old was he >>>when it started? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Did he have some war duties as a boy? Volunteer type stuff? Have you ever > known any of the Polish aviators who fought in the Battle of Britain? No war duties whatsoever. Why should he? He was a schoolboy. He had no more contact (as far as I know) with Polish aviators than anyone else in Britain, therefore, I never knew any,either. >>>Was your father so Anti-American he didn't want to stay in Holy Loch when >>>he heard our submariners were coming? He didn't want you to marry an [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the Episcopal Church. They were/are particularly strong at Saint Andrew's > Cathedral, my church in Honolulu. It comes of idealism. Idealism, by its very nature, is ideal. But, we all live in the real world where human nature is such, that Grand Plans often go awry. Hence my loathing of sociology. It has much to answer for. > What these naive and misled people did not understand is that the American, > British and French nuclear arsenals served to DETER Soviet and PRC > aggression during The Cold War and were absolutely necessary. We've > responsibly used them that way now for over 60 years -- without a Nuclear > Holocaust. Non-Proliferation is the important thing now. That's why it's > so important that Iran and North Korea NOT get the Bomb. I agree that Responsible Nations can and have effectively use/d the Bomb as a deterrent. This takes us back to the idealists who see everything as An Agenda. However, if those Responsible Nations cease to be responsible . . . > The Communists, of course, did everything they could to fund, support and > infiltrate these Ban The Bomb groups. I have personal knowledge of that. > > Many of them became just fellow-traveler adjuncts to the USSR and PRC -- > Communist Fronts, both in Britain and America, as well as West Germany, > France and Italy. I wouldn't know about this, so couldn't possibly comment. >>>American Submariners are WONDERFUL PEOPLE -- I have personal experiences >>>of that. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Not even an American naval officer? <g> But a Polish naval officer would > have been all right? <g> I doubt it! My mother should have married a banker, a penniless title or "someone in the city", but she horrified my grandmother by marrying a Pole. By the time I came of age, the world had changed. At the age of 8, it was anathema to my mother for me to marry an American serviceman. Ten years later, at the advent of the seventies, the world had changed, and no one worried about who I married. >>Years later, I saw a documentary about Dunoon in the wake of the >>dismantling of the Polaris base. So many babies, so few fathers. > > A documentary put together by British Socialists, no doubt -- who were > America-Haters. You are another agenda-seeker. It was simply a documentary about the aftermath of the Polaris base. The base also made Dunoon famous. Dunoon was always a famous Scottish holiday resort, but the base put it on the world stage, if you like, and widened its popularity. That alone must have resulted in increased tourism, notwithstanding the old servicemen who periodically return for get-togethers. >>During one trip to Glasgow in the 90s, a taxi driver (the founts of all >>knowledge) said the closure of the base resulted in a glut of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Loch? Lots of spending and multiplier effect lost with the departure of the > United States Navy. Who is using the facilities and infrastructure now? Couldn't say. I haven't been there since the base was dismantled. Was supposed to go last year, but unfortunately, my father-in-law's funeral intervened. >>>Those on the "boomers" -- Polaris and successor subs -- were/are >>>particularly elite and well-educated. They were KEY PLAYERS during The [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > plan to do with a degree from the LSE -- be another Left-Wing academic or > government bureaucrat? Believe it or not, Dad wasn't indoctrinated by the LSE. As I told you, a decade later, he was voting Conservative. It was his working life in the hotel trade (which supplemented his meagre income as an academic) which had more effect on him. He hated economics and didn't finish his degree. He should have switched to history or the classics, but the family help which had seen him through his public school in the mid-forties was not forthcoming a few years later. He had to make it on his own. He abandonded his studies for the sake of earning a few pounds. >>>He became a hardcore Socialist too as I recall and was a militant union >>>steward? Or not... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wonderful work Bill and Melinda Gates are doing -- in concert with Warren > Buffet. Indeed. But his philosophy was, that lobby groups had to ask for a lot in order to achieve a little. If you ask for a little, you receive nothing. >>>Count of what? >> >>You mean Count of where? Polish titles are not like English titles which >>include place-names in the title. > > O.K. Count of where or what? Where were the land holdings? A huge estate in southern Poland. >>>And what did your Father think of Stalin and his successors? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes, the old familiar saw, "Trotsky would have done it differently!" Not so much that. I haven't studied Trotsky, but as far as I can make out, he wasn't so hard-line or ruthless as Lenin and Stalin. He was also more moderate and more popular. Hence, he was disposed of. > How often have I heard that in Greenwich Village, Gans's stomping grounds -- > and in New Haven, Harvard Yard, Berkeley, Palo Alto, Chevy Chase, > Hollywood -- and other places on the Left Coast, such as Big Sur, Oakland > and Monterey. Perhaps we should both read more about Trotsky and perhaps we would then both understand more. >>Both of us held high hopes that Gorbachev was the best man to bring Russia >>out of its communist stupor. Both of us agree that the worst thing that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yeltsin was a likeable and congenial drunk -- just as many drunks are > likeable and congenial, when half sober -- but incompetent to run a State. Yeltsin was neither likeable or congenial. He was a drunk and unfit to run a state, especially one the size of the USSR. > I have no patience with people who can't hold their liquor and still > function competently. Neither can I, but such people have a disease. They need help. They need more help than any other quarter in society and no one gives it to them, because everyone thinks it is self-imposed. Booze is legal. We all (or many of us) do it socially, but for some people, it has a terrible effect and it costs the state/s millions in health care and in criminal proceedings. It would be cheaper to seek these people out and treat them rather than leave them to rot while destroying their families as well. >>She is a nation used to being dictated to, whether by Tsar or President. >>Putin has done much to bring out the beauty of his home-town of St >>Petersburg and attract tourist dollars. The rest remains to be seen. > > Yes, it's a beautiful city -- the name change was marvelous too. I was there last year. I was very impressed by it. > > Yeltsin was a likeable and congenial drunk -- just as many drunks are > > likeable and congenial, when half sober -- but incompetent to run a State. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > proceedings. It would be cheaper to seek these people out and treat them > rather than leave them to rot while destroying their families as well. The above paragraph is well said. The only problem is- the people who need treatment are usually the ones who don't want treatment. It is part of their disorder/addiction and is what prevents them from getting treatment. Forcing them to get treatment can sometimes work and at least might save some lives and families. Getting them to treatment is the problem, not the treatment itself. Lee >>>Yeltsin was a likeable and congenial drunk -- just as many drunks are >>>likeable and congenial, when half sober -- but incompetent to run a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > and families. Getting them to treatment is the problem, not the treatment > itself. Absolutely. Which is why I said they should be sought out. Powers should be given to their families, with the help of their doctors, to get them to try to help themselves. >> No war duties whatsoever. Why should he? He was a schoolboy. He had no > more contact (as far as I know) with Polish aviators than anyone else in > Britain, therefore, I never knew any,either. My father flew with Poles in WWII, Renia. He always said they were absolutely crazy - but great! Surreyman >>>No war duties whatsoever. Why should he? He was a schoolboy. He had no >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My father flew with Poles in WWII, Renia. > He always said they were absolutely crazy - but great! Yup, Poles are wonderful people. Kind, generous, thoughtful. And off their rockers. Like Greeks! And the English! This comes through quite clearly in the film _Battle of Britain_, concerning the Polish aviators. DSH >> My father flew with Poles in WWII, Renia. >> He always said they were absolutely crazy - but great! [SOP] > > Yup, Poles are wonderful people. Kind, generous, thoughtful. And off their > rockers. Like Greeks! And the English! >>>He was not pro-Russian. When I was in the British Army, I worked with an elderly Polish man, a Count Lubienski, translating Russian military documents - ask me about the instructions for using foot wrappings with canvas boots - the quality of the intelligence material we received was less than riveting... One brave but unknown agent sent us beautiful colour photographs of just about every General in Moscow District, but failed to identify any of them, which was not unlike doing a crossword puzzle in Chinese as we tried to figure out who was who! You can grasp the quality of British military secrecy by the fact that the details of the Lewis Machine Gun (1915) was still a classified secret! No wonder the Cousins (Americans) never told us anything about their activities! Apparently Count Lubienski was very well-known among the Polish community. It was he who introduced me to a Polish-British newspaper called "Dziennik Polski i Dziennik Solzierna" (Polish and Soldier's Daily) which is still in business as "Dziennik Polski" and was read by every Pole I ever met. Did you know his family? My father was a squadron leader in charge of two Polish bomber squadrons - one after the other - of whom there were few survivors. Sadly, my father was not one of them, but those who did survive frequently came to see my mother and would reminisce about him. The Poles had a bad habit of chatting constantly on their radios and my father apparently would shout "Shut up!" at them in Gaelic as a counter-measure. He told my mother he could almost hear then searching through their English dictionaries, trying to figure out what he had said, amid cries of "Ripit pliss!" (Repeat please)! I had a Polish girl friend once. To be perfectly frank, she was pretty weird, but I do realise that this is not a normal Polish condition! The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. This problem of Polish Radio Discipline on RAF tactical circuits, while in combat, is sharply highlighted in the film _Battle of Britain_. DSH > My father was a squadron leader in charge of two Polish bomber > squadrons - one after the other - of whom there were few survivors. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > through their English dictionaries, trying to figure out what he had > said, amid cries of "Ripit pliss!" (Repeat please)! > This problem of Polish Radio Discipline on RAF tactical circuits, while in > combat, is sharply highlighted in the film _Battle of Britain_. Oh Gawd - more history from (very bad) cinema. Twit! Surreyman >> This problem of Polish Radio Discipline on RAF tactical circuits, while in >> combat, is sharply highlighted in the film _Battle of Britain_. > >Oh Gawd - more history from (very bad) cinema. Seems to be a prime source for some people. Scríobh wrecked 'em <blew.em.to.bits@once.gov>: >>> This problem of Polish Radio Discipline on RAF tactical circuits, while in >>> combat, is sharply highlighted in the film _Battle of Britain_. >> >>Oh Gawd - more history from (very bad) cinema. In fairness, 'Battle of Britain' may be bad history, but it's quite good cinema. >Seems to be a prime source for some people. Signature'Donegal: Up Here It's Different' © Féachadóir > Scríobh wrecked 'em <blew.em.to.bits@once.gov>: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > >Seems to be a prime source for some people. Subjective, of course. But I found the characters very 'cardboard', the 'shocking' scenes (the dead airwomen's legs showing, etc.) plastic, and that 'ballet' fighter battle scene pathetic. Surreyman > > Scríobh wrecked 'em <blew.em.to.b...@once.gov>: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I saw it being filmed over my school, could never work out what the 2 engine 2 fin beastie was - cos it was not a Dornier (it was the B25 camera ship) to be fair, it tried hard, and you coudnt get so many '109s' and '111's now at lest it had... Hurricanes, in no specific order... Czechs Poles and others which seem to be forgotten now guy >, and that 'ballet' fighter battle > scene pathetic. It's a straight homage to the original 'Hell's Angels', shot for shot. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach Time for tea >> This problem of Polish Radio Discipline on RAF tactical circuits, while in >> combat, is sharply highlighted in the film _Battle of Britain_. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Surreyman I disagree 100%. For people like me who lived through the war it was very moving. And by the way, Canada's oldest WW1 veteran died this morning, aged 107. And I had an overnight guest, a beautiful dog which scratched at my screen door and whined until I let him in. I fed him and got him to sleep on the floor and in the morning, managed to find his Chinese owners. I thought he was part-husky, but it turned out that he was a rare purebred Shiba Inu from Japan, from one of only three bloodlines left. He had lovely manners when I fed him, but boy, could he scream when he wanted to leave, like a child in pain! I took him for a walk in the night to see if knew his way home, but all he did was mark every corner we came to! The Chinese lady owner told me she had cried all night thinking she had lost him forever. A visiting friend has not closed the outside door properly and he got away. http://tinyurl.com/yu44mb Her husband offered me a reward but of course I waved it away - I wouldn't see anyone lose a pet if it could be avoided. The Highlander Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil. The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of The Highlander. >> I disagree 100%. For people like me who lived through the war it was > very moving. Especially for those who experienced WWII it was cardboard rubbish. Surreyman |
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