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Re: Road Pricing Petition Sign-Up

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D. Spencer Hines - 20 Feb 2007 17:13 GMT
"I don't think people trust the government," says Peter Roberts, the man who
posted the petition on the Downing Street website. "They see this as a
stealth tax."

Serious Problems...

Too many people with cars and trucks in too small an area.

DSH
------------------------------------------------------------------------

London doubles size of its controversial pay-to-drive zone

Some say the $16-a-day charge aimed at alleviating traffic will hurt
businesses

By Mark Rice-Oxley | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
20 February 2007

LONDON

Jane Morris didn't have to wait until this week to know what a new toll on
driving in her district would do to her upholstery and interior design shop.

After all, vehicles are essential to her business, she muses, surveying the
fabrics and soft furnishings of the quaint west London boutique she has run
for 25 years. Delivery men, carpenters, tradesmen, carpet fitters, and, of
course, the customers all need vehicles.

"You can't really carry pieces of furniture home on public transport, can
you?" she asks.

Starting this week, they might have to. Monday, London's controversial toll
zone, in which motorists pay an £8 ($15.60) daily fee to drive, was extended
westward into the upscale neighborhoods of Chelsea and Knightsbridge – home
to such landmarks as Harrods department store. At almost 16 square miles,
it's nearly double its original size.

For Ms. Morris, that will mean the loss of some regular customers.

"Already, we have had three customers saying they shan't be coming in any
more," says Morris. "We are going to see a big drop in customers. If it
takes out 10 to 20 percent of our business, it will be very serious."

Morris is one of many railing against government moves – local and
national – to charge motorists for using a road network that is expected to
otherwise become increasingly congested in the decades ahead. In west London
there is strong opposition to Mayor Ken Livingstone's scheme to extend the
world's biggest congestion charge zone. Nationwide, more than 1.5 million
people have signed a petition against plans to introduce in the next decade
a "pay-as-you-go" road-pricing system where cars are tracked and charged
automatically.

Mr. Livingstone argues the new toll zone will ease congestion in the
Kensington and Chelsea areas by 15 to 20 percent. He says congestion has
been cut by more than 20 percent in the original zone, and tolls raised more
than £120 million ($234 million) last year for investment, primarily in
public transport. Traffic has fallen in one of Europe's most congested areas
since the charge was instituted in February 2003. London authorities also
claim that harmful emissions have been cut by 15 percent. Sales of
environmentally friendly cars – as defined by the TransportEnergy Powershift
Register (www.powershift.org.uk) – which are exempted from charges, have
jumped.

"The congestion charge has so far been a very considerable success," says
Professor Stephen Glaister, a transport expert and member of the Transport
for London (TfL) executive board. "It met its objective of reducing traffic
by what was expected. It has not raised quite as much money because trip
patterns changed."

But critics say the scheme is costly, flawed, and primitive. Businesses say
half of all firms have seen a drop in profits since the 2003 charge was
brought in. Half of all revenue drummed up by the charge goes to technology
and running costs.

Opponents point out that although several cities worldwide have implemented
congestion charging, few are emulating London's expensive system, which
deploys hundreds of cameras to read license plates, check fee-payers against
a computer database, issue fines to delinquents, and follow up on those who
still don't pay.

Far more popular is the "tag and beacon" system, most successfully modeled
by Singapore, in which roadside monitors read in-car sensors, payment is
made automatically, and roads can be priced according to how busy they are.

The second criticism is that the funds raised have not transformed public
transport sufficiently to make it a viable alternative for travelers and
commuters. Rush-hour trains and subway services are still dismally busy, and
the cost of a single subway fare has skyrocketed to £4 ($8).

The western extension, is, if anything, even more controversial than the
original scheme. A TfL survey found 63 percent of residents and 72 percent
of firms were opposed to the extension. Other research by the Centre for
Economic and Business Research, an economics consulting firm, found that
businesses in the zone could lose more than £200 million ($389 million), at
a cost of 6,000 job losses. Business organization London First likened
congestion charging to taking "a sledgehammer to pick a lock."

Local residents say that only 5 percent of their roads ever suffer from
congestion, and say average speeds are around 25 m.p.h.

And as all 60,000 local drivers qualify for a 90-percent discount on the
charge, many will now be able to circulate cheaply in central London. TfL
officials admit that this will cause congestion to rise 4 percent in the
original zone.

Nothing aggravates middle England more than an assault on the right to
drive. Seven out of 10 British passenger journeys are by car – in a country
barely half the size of California. But with more vehicles (33 million) than
America's most populous state, many transport experts say something has to
be done to avert wider gridlock. "What else are we going to do? Build roads?
Or let it get worse?" asks Glaister.

A recent report commissioned by the government recommended that nationwide
road pricing could cut congestion in half. Officials anticipate tolls of up
to £1.28 on the busiest roads in peak periods. But the proposal is still
years away from being introduced, and the authorities will face a tough task
in selling it to the public, as the petition demonstrates.

"I don't think people trust the government," says Peter Roberts, the man who
posted the petition on the Downing Street website. "They see this as a
stealth tax."
Fred - 20 Feb 2007 18:02 GMT
> "I don't think people trust the government," says Peter Roberts, the man who

     He is right there! Many of our towns and cities are crowded,
especially in the run up to Xmas, perhaps we could have a pavement tax
in town centers up and down the country. This would surely ease pavement
congestion and make Xmas shopping a  more pleasant experience for the
more well to do??
     It would have the additional benefit of raising revenue and with
the right technology the ability to monitor the comings and goings of
anyone using the streets!!
D. Spencer Hines - 20 Feb 2007 18:23 GMT
Yes, how about a BREATHING TAX too, in combination with your PAVEMENT TAX?

You make everyone wear breath monitors measuring the CO2 they emit.

They could be directly hooked up to the bearers' checking accounts and then
simply debit the daily charges -- thereby getting the revenue to Government
much faster, so they can spend it faster ---- and allowing air consumers to
monitor, control and closely regulate how much they breathe and exhale.

It could vastly increase your Public Revenue Intake and sharply cut down on
Unnecessary & Wasteful Breathing, by the profligate.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
------------------------------------------

>> "I don't think people trust the government," says Peter Roberts, the man
>> who
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> up and down the country. This would surely ease pavement congestion and
> make Xmas shopping a  more pleasant experience for the more well to do??

> It would have the additional benefit of raising revenue and with the right
> technology the ability to monitor the comings and goings of anyone using
> the streets!!
Martin - 20 Feb 2007 19:29 GMT
> Yes, how about a BREATHING TAX too, in combination with your PAVEMENT TAX?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It could vastly increase your Public Revenue Intake and sharply cut down on
> Unnecessary & Wasteful Breathing, by the profligate.

You may jest David, but I suspect such measures are being considered by various
committes right now. Leaving a carbon footprint anywhere will be punishable by a
fine and possible imprisonment...
Renia - 20 Feb 2007 22:23 GMT
> Yes, how about a BREATHING TAX too, in combination with your PAVEMENT TAX?

Yes, and a farting tax, to finance measuring the methane it produces!
D. Spencer Hines - 21 Feb 2007 02:09 GMT
PRECISELY!

The wiring for the sensors may be a bit more difficult there.

DSH

>> Yes, how about a BREATHING TAX too, in combination with your PAVEMENT
>> TAX?
>
> Yes, and a farting tax, to finance measuring the methane it produces!
noggin - 20 Feb 2007 18:24 GMT
liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying folks
have only seen the "negative" side of road pricing.

WHY oh WHY did the BBC interviewer not ask the question everyone wondered -
so what is the positive side of the stealth tax?

Maybe the Green and uber PC BBC believe its a good idea ?
D. Spencer Hines - 20 Feb 2007 18:30 GMT
OF COURSE!

DSH

> liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying folks
> have only seen the "negative" side of road pricing.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Maybe the Green and uber PC BBC believe its a good idea ?
dennis@fake - 20 Feb 2007 19:02 GMT
> liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying folks
> have only seen the "negative" side of road pricing.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Maybe the Green and uber PC BBC believe its a good idea ?

And maybe the uber Tories & their friends in the road lobby forget who
introduced the Poll tax. What a success that was.
Renia - 20 Feb 2007 22:24 GMT
>> liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying folks
>> have only seen the "negative" side of road pricing.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> And maybe the uber Tories & their friends in the road lobby forget who
> introduced the Poll tax. What a success that was.

Well, it wasn't so much introducing a poll tax, it was replacing The Rates.
D. Spencer Hines - 21 Feb 2007 02:14 GMT
Please expand on that for us colonials, Renia.

DSH

>> And maybe the uber Tories & their friends in the road lobby forget who
>> introduced the Poll tax. What a success that was.
>
> Well, it wasn't so much introducing a poll tax, it was replacing The
> Rates.
Renia - 21 Feb 2007 02:28 GMT
> Please expand on that for us colonials, Renia.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>Well, it wasn't so much introducing a poll tax, it was replacing The
>>Rates.

The Rates were the old local housing tax. As I recall, it wasn't based
on the value of the housing, but on the population of the community. I
remember my mother saying we had the most expensive rates in Britain in
Argyll, because there were comparitively fewer people to pay it. I don't
know how true that was.

Then the Conservatives under Maggie had a bright idea and came up with
the Community Charge which was based on the value of property. The
people nick-named it the Poll Tax and revolted, literally, because it
worked out as much more expensive than The Rates for ordinary people.
Some amendment was made to lighten the load, but the people were only
marginally happier. It's got a new name now, and for the life of me, I
can't remember what it is. It appears Labour is toying with bringing
back a much more value-based Community Charge. People who build
extensions to their properties, who tart up their bathrooms or kitchens,
or otherwise increase the value of their properties through devlopment
or remodelling will be heavily penalised. (Hence, people will cease to
do up their houses and the insides of houses will be as scruffy as the
outsides, surrounded as they are, by wheelie-bins. Just another nail in
the destruction of Britain.)
Paul Scott - 21 Feb 2007 10:09 GMT
> The Rates were the old local housing tax. As I recall, it wasn't based on
> the value of the housing, but on the population of the community. I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nick-named it the Poll Tax and revolted, literally, because it worked out
> as much more expensive than The Rates for ordinary people.

Rubbish - the rates were based on the [rental] value of the property - hence
older properties have a 'rateable value - RV' which is still sometimes used
to calculate their water bills.  The rates were charged at so many pence in
the pound of RV - towards the end this often became a number of pounds per
pound of RV - so areas with low RVs had a higher charging rate to meet the
councils income requirement.

The Community charge or 'poll tax' was intended to be charged on the basis
of occupancy - a charge per person - which meant large families [of over
18s] paid much more.

The current system is called 'Council tax' and is again based on the
property notional value.

Have you actually ever paid any of these charges?

Paul
Renia - 21 Feb 2007 11:59 GMT
>>The Rates were the old local housing tax. As I recall, it wasn't based on
>>the value of the housing, but on the population of the community. I
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Have you actually ever paid any of these charges?

Oh, yes, but not for several years.

I never realised The Rates were based on the rental value of properties,
so thank you for clarifying that. In the 50s, most people rented theirs.
We owned a detached house in Argyll, which might explain why our Rates
were so high. And, indeed, the revolt against the Community charge was
because two identical houses would pay differing amounts based on the
number of people who lived in them. The Council Tax is based on the
value of the property itself, not the rental value.
D. Spencer Hines - 21 Feb 2007 14:47 GMT
Thanks.

You're right -- it's sad.

DSH

>> Please expand on that for us colonials, Renia.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> of houses will be as scruffy as the outsides, surrounded as they are, by
> wheelie-bins. Just another nail in the destruction of Britain.)
Richard Oh! - 21 Feb 2007 19:48 GMT
>> liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying folks
>> have only seen the "negative" side of road pricing.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> And maybe the uber Tories & their friends in the road lobby forget who
> introduced the Poll tax. What a success that was.

At least it wasn't a stealth tax and it was a bloody sight fairer than
what we have now.

Signature

Moving things in still pictures!

dennis@fake - 21 Feb 2007 20:05 GMT
>>> liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying
>>> folks
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> At least it wasn't a stealth tax and it was a bloody sight fairer than
> what we have now.

No it was very unfair.
Richard Oh! - 22 Feb 2007 11:28 GMT
>>>> liked the labour politician on "The Daily politics" who kept saying
>>>> folks
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> No it was very unfair.

In what way?

Signature

Moving things in still pictures!

Ray O'Hara - 22 Feb 2007 18:22 GMT
> > "I don't think people trust the government," says Peter Roberts, the man who
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the right technology the ability to monitor the comings and goings of
> anyone using the streets!!

Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

(if you drive a car, car;) - I'll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit;) - I'll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold;) - I'll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk;) - I'll tax your feet.

Taxman!

'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Don't ask me what I want it for, (ah-ah, mister Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more. (ah-ah, mister heath)
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Now my advice for those who die, (taxman)
Declare the pennies on your eyes. (taxman)
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

And you're working for no one but me.

Taxman!
JNugent - 22 Feb 2007 23:26 GMT
>>>"I don't think people trust the government,"
says Peter Roberts,
>>>the man who

>>He is right there! Many of our towns and cities
are crowded,
>>especially in the run up to Xmas, perhaps we
could have a pavement tax
>>in town centers up and down the country. This
would surely ease pavement
>>congestion and make Xmas shopping a  more
pleasant experience for the
>>more well to do??
>>It would have the additional benefit of raising
revenue and with
>>the right technology the ability to monitor the
comings and goings of
>>anyone using the streets!!

[snip lyrics to "Taxman"]

I'd forgotten just how incisive that song was. At
the time, people like George Harrison and the
other Beatles were paying income tax of about
nineteen shillings in the pound (which is what the
 line:

> "There's one for you, nineteen for me"

...was about.

But George proved prescient about the advent of
Mad Ken too:

> (if you drive a car, car;) - I'll tax the street
dennis@fake - 23 Feb 2007 09:16 GMT
>  > "Fred" <Fred@Frednet.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>  > (if you drive a car, car;) - I'll tax the street
And look how short of money all 4 Beatles were (2 still are). A real
protest song.
JNugent - 23 Feb 2007 12:26 GMT
>>  > "Fred" <Fred@Frednet.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> And look how short of money all 4 Beatles were (2 still are). A real
> protest song.

And that justified snatching 95% of their
earnings, did it?

I wonder why we don't do it anymore?
Baz - 23 Feb 2007 16:18 GMT
> And that justified snatching 95% of their earnings, did it?
>
> I wonder why we don't do it anymore?

as John said when asked if he minded only getting sixpence in the pound :-

'that's still an awful lot of sixpences'

/ those that can, do, for the good of those who can't /
wishy washy liberalism or decent ethical policy- depends on the individual,

Baz
Fred - 23 Feb 2007 13:10 GMT
>>  > "Fred" <Fred@Frednet.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> And look how short of money all 4 Beatles were (2 still are). A real
> protest song.

        People in their financial situation could be forgiven for
welcoming road pricing. Although those nice relatively uncongested roads
with the poorer priced out of the way!!
 
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