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The Antiwar Surge -- Iraq Is Unpopular, But Embracing Defeat Potentially Disastrous For Democrats?

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D. Spencer Hines - 22 Feb 2007 08:10 GMT
Thoughtful & Provocative.

DSH
---------------------------------------------------

THE WESTERN FRONT

The Antiwar Surge

Iraq is unpopular, but embracing defeat may prove politically disastrous for
Democrats.

BY BRENDAN MINITER

Tuesday, February 20, 2007
The Wall Street Journal

In mid-January an Associated Press-Ipsos poll found that public support for
President Bush's troop surge increased to 35%, up from 26% a few weeks
earlier. The same poll found that a slim majority of Americans were against
the war in Iraq, but 68% said they opposed shutting off funds to fight it,
and 60% said they would oppose Congress's withholding funds necessary to
send additional troops.

The poll was not an anomaly. Hillary Clinton and her chief strategist, Mark
Penn, himself a former pollster, know how to read public opinion surveys.

Which may explain why she steadfastly refuses to "apologize" for voting to
authorize the war in 2002 while also calling for Mr. Bush to end the war
before he leaves office and favoring a nonbinding Senate resolution opposing
an "escalation." The war may not be popular, but the public isn't ready to
support losing either.

What then is next in the war over the war? The House passed its nonbinding
resolution last week and won votes of just 17 Republicans. Rep. John Murtha,
who's spent more than two decades amassing political clout by doling out
defense earmarks, might prefer to "slow bleed" the administration by putting
conditions on money appropriated to fight the war. Mr. Murtha, with the
support of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, may even succeed at hamstringing the
president. But political success of such a strategy depends on two things:
first, that U.S. troops will fail to win on the ground in Iraq; second, that
a fickle public doesn't turn around and blame Democrats for that failure.

During the government shutdown in 1995, then-Speaker Newt Gingrich learned
the hard way that the public can turn on congressional leaders who pick
public fights with sitting president for little apparent gain. With the
nonbinding resolution, Speaker Pelosi might have signed up for co-ownership
of failure in Iraq, with little right to share credit for victory should the
surge succeed.

Correct. -- DSH

Neither the White House nor House Republican leaders counted votes or
pressured wayward members to vote against the House resolution last week,
though Minority Leader John Boehner did give an impassioned speech on the
floor laying out what's at stake should the U.S. lose the war. It's
instructive that under the circumstances, several dozen Republicans didn't
cross the aisle to give Ms. Pelosi bipartisan cover for shutting off the
president's moral authority to wage the war. The House Republican caucus
isn't responding to the loss of the majority last year by running away from
Iraq.

Arguably, waffling on the war is what is costly for Republicans. In June
Rep. Gil Gutknecht, a Minnesota Republican, cautioned other Republicans not
to go wobbly. A month later he went wobbly himself. After returning from
Iraq, he declared that the U.S. lacked "strategic control" of the country
and called for a limited troop withdrawal to "send a message" to Iraq's
government. In November the six-term congressman watched independent voters
abandon him as he lost by more than 5% to Democrat Tim Waltz. Meanwhile, in
a neighboring congressional district, Rep. John Kline, another Republican
facing a stiff challenge for his seat, didn't waver. He ended winning enough
support from independents to defeat FBI "whistleblower" Colleen Rowley by
16%.

Over in the Senate, Joe Lieberman recently warned that a showdown on the war
between the executive and legislative branches risked creating a
"constitutional crisis." But perhaps his most powerful political statement
is still being in the Senate after losing a Democratic primary last year to
antiwar activist Ned Lamont. The antiwar left is powerful enough to prevail
in a Democratic primary, but even in deeply blue Connecticut, it wasn't
capable of winning a statewide general election.

Sen. Barack Obama is popular on the presidential campaign trail, has written
two autobiographies and is a leading critic of the war. Former senator John
Edwards is also a steadfast critic of having invaded Iraq and has repeatedly
apologized for his vote authorizing military force. The risk for Democrats
is that the party's current antiwar slide won't stop once it reaches the
edge of public support. Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
debate, in opposition not just to the war in Iraq but to the global war on
terror.

Which is where Pogue Gans and Pogue Surreyman are. -- DSH

In his new book "Overblown," Mr. Mueller argues that in response to the
Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration exaggerated the threat and waged a
global war, restricted civil liberties and endangered the U.S.'s standing in
the world. "Which is the greater threat: terrorism or our reaction against
it?" he asks. Come November 2008, we may have a definitive answer to where
the public stands on that question.

Mr. Miniter is assistant editor of OpinionJournal.com.  His column appears
Tuesdays.
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast - 22 Feb 2007 09:41 GMT
On Feb 22, 2:10 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Thoughtful & Provocative.
>
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
> Mr. Miniter is assistant editor of OpinionJournal.com.  His column appears
> Tuesdays.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Campaign 2008 there are presently 4 major issues:
Iraq/Afghanistan
Immigration/Border control
National health care
The economy (Bush debt management)
There are no other major issues.
Here are the MINOR issues:

Stem cell research
Civil rights
Katrina (not New Orleans) resettlement
New Orleans crime wave
Abortion debate
Social Security/Medicare
Veterans benefits
Global warming

Clinton's first big mistake in Campaign 2008 was to go out
and scream that the CSA flag should be struck down from every
public building  and structure in the country. For a promising
candidate to take a concrete stand on any of these minor issues is
to risk the election.  Now that the Left controls the House, the
voters will again move to another razor thin majority presidency...
in 2008.
By reviving a dead "big government versus states rights" issue like
the
CSA and its flag, she has just turned enough Southerners back
to the GOP to lose the 2008 election.
Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bryn - 22 Feb 2007 20:54 GMT
>On Feb 22, 2:10 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 133 lines]
>Cheers, David H
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CSA? Please explain... Not the Child Support Agency I presume...

Signature

Spring rain-
under trees
a crystal stream.

Bashõ

D. Spencer Hines - 23 Feb 2007 03:26 GMT
[...]

>>Clinton's first big mistake in Campaign 2008 was to go out
>>and scream that the CSA flag should be struck down from every
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>voters will again move to another razor thin majority presidency...
>>in 2008.

>>By reviving a dead "big government versus states rights" issue like
>>the CSA and its flag, she has just turned enough Southerners back
>>to the GOP to lose the 2008 election.

>>Cheers, David H
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> CSA?  Please explain... Not the Child Support Agency I presume...

Confederate States of America -- the official name of the Confederacy, "The
South" in the American Civil War.

> Spring rain-
> under trees
> a crystal stream.
>
> Bashõ

That's another Good One.

What book, or other source, are you getting these Bashõ haiku from -- and
does it have the Japanese too?

DSH
Bryn - 23 Feb 2007 09:04 GMT
>[...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Confederate States of America -- the official name of the Confederacy, "The
>South" in the American Civil War.

Thanks... I thought that one had been resolved..

>> Spring rain-
>> under trees
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>What book, or other source, are you getting these Bashõ haiku from --

Penguin Classics "Haiku" Lucien Stryk translation.

(Taken from "On Love and Barley: Haiku of Bashõ" Stryk)

ISBN 0-14- 600164-8
> and
>does it have the Japanese too?

Sadly, not in this printing...  I don't know if they were in the
original translation.

Bryn
Signature

Spring rain-
under trees
a crystal stream.

Bashõ

D. Spencer Hines - 23 Feb 2007 09:20 GMT
Thanks very much.

DSH

>>> Spring rain-
>>> under trees
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Bryn
a.spencer3 - 23 Feb 2007 08:52 GMT
> CSA? Please explain... Not the Child Support Agency I presume...

Czech Airlines, ain't it?

Surreyman
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast - 23 Feb 2007 09:02 GMT
> > CSA? Please explain... Not the Child Support Agency I presume...
>
> Czech Airlines, ain't it?
>
> Surreyman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commonwealth of South Afrika
Paul J Gans - 23 Feb 2007 17:19 GMT
In soc.history.medieval a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>> CSA? Please explain... Not the Child Support Agency I presume...
>> >
>Czech Airlines, ain't it?

If I remember the antecedents of this post correctly, it
stands for Confederate States of America.

You see, *our* civil war isn't over.  Not by a long shot.

Signature

  --- Paul J. Gans

D. Spencer Hines - 22 Feb 2007 22:50 GMT
> In Campaign 2008 there are presently 4 major issues:

> Iraq/Afghanistan
> Immigration/Border control
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> voters will again move to another razor thin majority presidency...
> in 2008.

> By reviving a dead "big government versus states rights" issue like
> the CSA and its flag, she has just turned enough Southerners back
> to the GOP to lose the 2008 election.

> Cheers, David H
-----------------------------------------------

Thoughtful & Provocative on YOUR part.

You've said some very perceptive things here.  People need to read it
again -- so I put it up top.

Did you make up the lists of Major & Minor issues on your own judgments or
take a cue from another source?

Hillary apparently did the shtick on the CSA and the Confederate Flag
because she wants ALL the Black Vote in South Carolina.  She feels she needs
to win a primary in the South if she is to be credible to Democrats who see
her simply as a Northern Ultra-Liberal, like Kerry, who can't win in the
General Election.

George Bush won in South Carolina in 2000 and it propelled him -- after
having lost to McCain in New Hampshire.

It was a short-term tactical move on Hillary's part that I agree may
boomerang on her.  I think you're right, it will tend to alienate many
people in the South and Southwest.  They will be concerned about how much
she will be a captive of  her African-American supporters and how often she
will pander to them if  elected President.

Mondale in 1984, Dukakis in 1988 and Kerry in 2004 ALL pandered to ALL the
Left-Wing elements in their Democrat Party.  It helped them lose in the
General Election.

My ancestors fought on both sides in our Civil War -- and I'm glad, along
with Abraham Lincoln, that the Union was preserved.

But I still honor and respect the Confederate Flag and will NOT turn it over
to the redneck racists and bigots as their exclusive property.

Clinton didn't make that mistake in 1992.  His famous Sister Souljah Moment
helped significantly, in my opinion -- as did Ross Perot, of course -- and
the Democrats' rolling of 41 on taxes -- after his pledge of "No New Taxes".
41 agreed to a tax rise only when he thought he had a promise from Democrats
to lower spending -- then they reneged.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah_moment>

Cheers,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

> On Feb 22, 2:10 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:

>> Thoughtful & Provocative.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
>> appears
>> Tuesdays.
Ray O'Hara - 22 Feb 2007 10:39 GMT
> Thoughtful & Provocative.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Iraq is unpopular, but embracing defeat may prove politically disastrous for
> Democrats.

the american people voted against the war in november. if the dems weren't
so damn gutless they would realize that and get us the hell out.
a.spencer3 - 22 Feb 2007 11:14 GMT
> Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
> University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
> debate, in opposition not just to the war in Iraq but to the global war on
> terror.
>
> Which is where Pogue Gans and Pogue Surreyman are. -- DSH

Yet again, pure nonsense, moron.

We're still waiting for the global war on terrorism to start.

Twit!

Surreyman
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 22 Feb 2007 14:47 GMT
>> Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
>> University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> We're still waiting for the global war on terrorism to start.

Well to be fair - they did start bombing the imaginary 'vast underground
cave headquarters' of Al Queda in Afghanistan 'til they realised they didn't
actually exist.
But then they got sidetracked into hegemony and base-building in Iraq (of
all places). Odd that.
Can't wait for the attack on that despotic regime of Fundamentalist Islamic
crazies next door though - the Saudi's have it coming to them.
a.spencer3 - 22 Feb 2007 14:50 GMT
> >> Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
> >> University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Can't wait for the attack on that despotic regime of Fundamentalist Islamic
> crazies next door though - the Saudi's have it coming to them.

I thought you meant Pakistan! :-))

Surreyman
Andrew Swallow - 22 Feb 2007 16:42 GMT
>>>> Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
>>>> University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>
> I thought you meant Pakistan! :-))

One at a time.  One at a time.

Will terrorist states please form a nice disorderly queue.  The US
military will be along to fight you soon. ;)

Andrew Swallow
a.spencer3 - 23 Feb 2007 09:58 GMT
> >>>> Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
> >>>> University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Will terrorist states please form a nice disorderly queue.  The US
> military will be along to fight you soon. ;)

I doubt it. They seem to avoid them.

Surreyman
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 23 Feb 2007 01:50 GMT
>> >> Instead it may leave the party where Ohio State
>> >> University political science professor John Mueller is taking the war
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
> I thought you meant Pakistan! :-))

Are you insane?! - *those* fundamentalist crazies *have* got WMD!
We've got enough problems dealing with a few ragheads with gas cylinders.

Did you catch the 'anti-American riot' in Sydney?
The 'American' in question was Cheney.
I liked the poster saying: 'Chain up Cheney - Free David Hicks'.
Michael O'Neill - 22 Feb 2007 20:21 GMT
[America voters back war-mongers]

Thoughtful and provocative indeed.

Next time someone blows up something American,

at the very least try not to look innocent.

M.
Weatherlawyer - 23 Feb 2007 05:20 GMT
On Feb 22, 8:10 am, "Disdgusting.Subversive Hack's"posts to irrelevant
newsgroups curtailed.

>Provocative.
>
> DistustedSHill's cut and paste and quasi interest in the efforts of military men to do what is expected of US and allied forces snipped.

He obviously doesn't know that once a country is questioning the
rights and wrongs, the political interferences -never mind their lack
of control or responsibility in a war, the effort is wasted.

The greatest ally that the so called Iraqi insurgents have in that war
is George Bush.

It was the same in WW II where the plan to kill Hitler was vetoed
because he was seen as more useful to the Allies while in power than
if he was killed by the sniper ready, willing and able to be sent to
kill him.

Hasn't New Orleans shown the dumb-arsed rednecks anything? It's been
well over an year since that city was eradicated. Bush's incompetence
and deception couldn't get any nearer their home could it?

I wouldn't ordinarily respond to Hines' rubbish but now and again the
fact that his disinformation might be swallowed by a lamer, provokes a
need. The fact that a lot of his efforts do have a following among the
ignorant and argumentative leaves me sad.

All that is required to feed these people is one post to warn newbies.
Why can't it be left at that I wonder.
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast - 23 Feb 2007 09:08 GMT
On Feb 22, 11:20 pm, "Weatherlawyer" <Weatherlaw...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 22, 8:10 am, "Disdgusting.Subversive Hack's"posts to irrelevant
> newsgroups curtailed.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> All that is required to feed these people is one post to warn newbies.
> Why can't it be left at that I wonder.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Weatherloafer,

The Commander's mind is sharp as a tack and as lucid
as ever.  As for the "Bush plan" for New Orleans,  there is
no plan to rebuild any American  city below sea level.  The Federal
Guv cannot rescue the local Levee Boards from their on
corruption and incompetence.  Katrina did not kill New Orleans.
New Orleans killed itself.

Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post Post Colonial Boy - 24 Feb 2007 09:04 GMT
<spin>
>Thoughtful & Provocative.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Iraq is unpopular, but embracing defeat may prove politically disastrous for
>Democrats.
</spin>
 
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