The Empty Pantsuit?
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D. Spencer Hines - 23 Feb 2007 23:19 GMT The Empty Pantsuit
On Tuesday we noted that the New York Times, in an article about Hillary Clinton's weaseling around about Iraq, took a totally cynical approach, not even considering the question of what if anything she sincerely believes.
Further evidence that this is how the Times views Hillary comes in a piece today on the tiff between Mrs. Clinton and Barack Obama. Savor this Adam Nagourney paragraph:
For Mrs. Clinton, the risks of going after Mr. Obama included the possibility that some voters would view her as driven more by tactical war-room politics than by the domestic and foreign policy issues they are most concerned about.
If a politician worries "that some voters would view her as driven more by tactical war-room politics than by the domestic and foreign-policy issues they are most concerned about," what does that tell you about her? That she is driven more by tactical war-room politics than by the issues! In this one paragraph, Nagourney has taken cynicism about Mrs. Clinton to transcendent heights.
James Taranto The Wall Street Journal
J Antero - 23 Feb 2007 23:58 GMT The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married him as part of a long term plan to get where she is now, politically.
She's never distinguished herself by anything she's done on her own.
The one big political project she was in charge of (health care reform) was handed to her despite lack of any credetials, and she completely f.cked up what should have been an easy achievement.
She's a dessicated feminist and if she's elected she could very well be worse than what we have now - in different ways and directions.
> The Empty Pantsuit > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > James Taranto > The Wall Street Journal dapra - 24 Feb 2007 01:01 GMT > The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by > being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married him [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > handed to her despite lack of any credetials, and she completely f.cked up > what should have been an easy achievement. I'm not fan of Hillary, but C'on, be real! Easy achievement? You obviously have no idea of the many interests tied to the medical establishment. I would congratulate her to try to solve the problem. Of course not for her failure.
> She's a dessicated feminist and if she's elected she could very well be > worse than what we have now - in different ways and directions. Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 01:12 GMT > > The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by > > being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married him [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > establishment. I would congratulate her to try to solve the problem. Of > course not for her failure. FWIW, having followed health care policy for neigh on to 25 years now, Hillary's plan was essentially the same one Teddy Kennedy had been floating for a few years before, repackaged a little.
J Antero - 24 Feb 2007 02:16 GMT >> The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by >> being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > would congratulate her to try to solve the problem. Of course not for her > failure. Bullshit.
At the time there was a great deal of media exposure of the failings of the American health insurance system - not the medical care system. There was a lot of public (voter) desire for reform.
Most conservatives were reconciled to some type of major reform.
Instead of putting up a simple system of a single Federally administered health insurance system, she proposed a bizarre complicated system that made medical people into government employees.
It was a gift to the people who are looting the system and their politicians - some senator put up a graphic showing her bizarre organizational plan that was enough to shock anyone into disbelief and rejection.
At the same time, the Soviet Union was collapasing from the accumulated affects of the same sort of thing that the stupid assed feminist was proposing.
Any competent person could have got through a good reform that would have doen much in terms of macro economics and humane effective health care.
dapra - 24 Feb 2007 02:47 GMT >>>The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by >>>being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Any competent person could have got through a good reform that would have > doen much in terms of macro economics and humane effective health care. The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.
Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 04:21 GMT > The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. > They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'. And the feds take about 75 cents off the top for most welfare programs. They even have to cook the books to get MCare under what the insurance companies take off the top by pretending what MCare spends to oversee the fiscal intermediaries is all their "overhead." When you factor in what the FIs get for doing the actual heavy lifting of writing the checks, etc., Mcare has roughly the same administrative costs as private insurance.
dapra - 24 Feb 2007 05:02 GMT >>The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. >>They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'. > > And the feds take about 75 cents off the top for most welfare > programs. I need some explanation. Do you mean the fed pays a dollar, but get 75c back? That sounds unbelievable. Of course the insurance companies pay nothing but take their cut of 20%.
> They even have to cook the books to get MCare under what the > insurance companies take off the top by pretending what MCare spends to > oversee the fiscal intermediaries is all their "overhead." When you > factor in what the FIs get for doing the actual heavy lifting of writing > the checks, etc., Mcare has roughly the same administrative costs as > private insurance. Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 13:17 GMT > >>The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. > >>They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > nothing but take their cut of 20%. > No I mean for every dollar appropiated only 25 cents actually makes it to the beneficiary. The rest is eaten up by the bureaucracy to process the application, write the check, etc. The insurance companies get only 20% so that 80% of their money buys the actual service and, unlike the Feds, at least some of that 20% also gets to the general public as dividends, etc.
J Antero - 24 Feb 2007 16:30 GMT >> The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. >> They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the checks, etc., Mcare has roughly the same administrative costs as > private insurance. About half of US medical insurance is Federal, and the Federal overhead number I've heard is 3 or 4 pct - about 1/10th what private sector insurance eats up.
You're saying that's way off - what are your sources?
Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 17:06 GMT > . > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > number I've heard is 3 or 4 pct - about 1/10th what private sector insurance > eats up. The three or four percent is what the Centers for Medicare/Medicaid Services (the old Health Care Finance Administration) pays for its overhead. But not even remotely the administrative costs of MCare MCaid. Medicare, for example, has the CMS (don't know where the second M went, probably a cost cutting measure). They do some research, publish the regs, set overall policy and do the bidding for fiscal intermediary. This is the 3% often cited. However, the way MCare is set-up, the fiscal intermediaries for a given area do the actual heavy lifting. They do the claims, negotiate with the providers, decide who and what is paid (in line with regulations from CMS), write the checks, etc. The real administrative tasks. When you include what the fiscal intermediaries are paid (they are often the area's Blue Cross provider, but another biggy in the field is Ross Perot's EDS. Add this back in as administrative overhead and the differences just about go away.
> You're saying that's way off - what are your sources? 15 years of CMS (or HCFA) budgets and some personal communications with the budget people at CMS. It is REAL hard to tease these out, but they are available if you look deep enough.
TMOliver - 25 Feb 2007 02:29 GMT >>> The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. >>> They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You're saying that's way off - what are your sources? I'd like to know also, since I'm one of the trustees of a modest non-profit health insurance "pool" (10,000+ families). I draw no "director's fee" or other compensation, only modest reimbursement for travel to meetings 4-6 times a year. The group obviously makes no profits, placing any left overs into reserves, and contracts for billing, collection and benefit payments on a competitive basis. Because of the average age of the group's members, the premiums are actually as high, sometimes higher than most "for profit" plans, and only a few percentage points lower than some private plans quote for groups with ages the same as ours.
If insurance companies are doing so well, it certainly doesn't show in the market for their securities or looking at their premiums and benefit payouts (which are a matter of public record in almost every case). I'm sure some senior management get lavish perks, but that's only pennies in the grand scheme of a big company's balance sheet.
As usual, the antic antero remains as full of sh.t as a Christmas turkey, knowing little if anything of the subject he addresses (and he's also more than a bit confused about Medicaid and Medicare (and Medicare's relationship with piggy-backed private insurance).
TMO
D. Spencer Hines - 25 Feb 2007 03:35 GMT Yes, he's ignorant and confused about every topic he writes about.
DSH
> "J Antero" <ae@re.com> wrote in message
> news:KKZDh.6046$tD2.4152@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> As usual, the antic antero remains as full of sh.t as a Christmas turkey, > knowing little if anything of the subject he addresses (and he's also more > than a bit confused about Medicaid and Medicare (and Medicare's > relationship with piggy-backed private insurance). > > TMO J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 16:35 GMT > Yes, he's ignorant and confused about every topic he writes about. Really?
And yet I'm regularly able to show you up as an incompetent propaganda addict, who knows nothing of military affairs.
Kurt Ullman - 25 Feb 2007 14:02 GMT > If insurance companies are doing so well, it certainly doesn't show in the > market for their securities or looking at their premiums and benefit payouts > (which are a matter of public record in almost every case). I'm sure some > senior management get lavish perks, but that's only pennies in the grand > scheme of a big company's balance sheet. Especially since the largest percentage of this is not cash, but rather from stock options and grants that really don't come from policy holders, but rather from the shareholders (and don't even get me started on how that came about).
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 16:29 GMT From: "TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> Subject: Re: The Empty Pantsuit? Date: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:29 PM
>> In article <3Z-dnUXfn_6uOkLYnZ2dnUVZ_v-tnZ2d@comcast.com>, >> dapra <dapra1@comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > You're saying that's way off - what are your sources? I'd like to know also, since I'm one of the trustees of a modest non-profit health insurance "pool" (10,000+ families). I draw no "director's fee" or other compensation, only modest reimbursement for travel to meetings 4-6 times a year. The group obviously makes no profits, placing any left overs into reserves, and contracts for billing, collection and benefit payments on a competitive basis. Because of the average age of the group's members, the premiums are actually as high, sometimes higher than most "for profit" plans, <
You make a stupid point. Any health insurance plan will have higher costs for older versus younger plan enrollees, irrespective of being private, public, or non-profit.
and only a few percentage points lower than some private plans quote for groups with ages the same as ours. <
An indication that it's incompetently administered.
A couple weeks ago you were trying to tell us you were an expert on food borne illness in the US.
I easily showed that you were full of sh.t, and you went back underground, where you belong.
Now you surface on this topic.
If insurance companies are doing so well, it certainly doesn't show in the market for their securities or looking at their premiums and benefit payouts (which are a matter of public record in almost every case). I'm sure some senior management get lavish perks, but that's only pennies in the grand scheme of a big company's balance sheet. <
Moron, you have confused the high overhead that I mentioned that is associated with private medical insurance, with high profits.
That's something no competent person would do.
That's something no person actualy informed about the US medical insurance system would do.
For one thing, a great deal of administrative *cost* (you idiot) is added to the private system with shifting responisibility for paying for treatments, etc.
Ask any MD or hospital adminstrator about the nighmare of paperwork associated with US medical care.
By the way moron, in this "private plan" of medical insurance you supposedly help administer, do you know enough to include the hospital and drug "discounts" that real insurance plans negotiate?
These can range from 20 to 50 pct, or more. That is, a person receiving treatment without insurance, will usually be charged much more for a given treatment / drug than a person with medical insurance.
You DID know that, didn't you?
What's the name of this plan you supposedly help administer? It has to be a tax entity, and have public information available. Tell us so we can do a little checking, since you raised it as a point of supposed credbility.
As usual, the antic antero remains as full of sh.t as a Christmas turkey, knowing little if anything of the subject he addresses (and he's also more than a bit confused about Medicaid and Medicare (and Medicare's relationship with piggy-backed private insurance). <
No sh.t for brains, like with the food borne illness discussion, it is you who is provably full of sh.t.
Readers can review the following articles dealing with research into the costs (and costs shifting) of the US medical insurance system and make up their own minds about this twit's credibilty.
I suspect this "oliver" is a Hines sock puppet.
http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1623 Jan. 14, 2004
Study Shows National Health Insurance Could Save $286 Billion on Health Care Paperwork:
Authors Say Medicare Drug Bill Will Increase Bureaucratic Costs, Reward Insurers and the AARP
A study by researchers at Harvard Medical School and Public Citizen to be published in Friday’s International Journal of Health Services finds that health care bureaucracy last year cost the United States $399.4 billion. The study estimates that national health insurance (NHI) could save at least $286 billion annually on paperwork, enough to cover all of the uninsured and to provide full prescription drug coverage for everyone in the United States.
The study was based on the most comprehensive analysis to date of health administration spending, including data on the administrative costs of health insurers, employers’ health benefit programs, hospitals, nursing homes, home care agencies, physicians and other practitioners in the United States and Canada. The authors found that bureaucracy accounts for at least 31 percent of total U.S. health spending compared to 16.7 percent in Canada. They also found that administration has grown far faster in the United States than in Canada.
http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/resources/grantsreport.jsp?filename=036617.htm&ia id=132
Administrative costs for health care in the United States significantly exceeded those in Canada in 1999. Researchers at the Cambridge Medical Care Foundation found that administrative costs per capita were $1,059 in the U.S. and $307 in Canada; these costs accounted for 31 percent of health care spending in the U.S. versus 16.7 percent in Canada. The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation provided $139,381 to support this study from July 2000 to January 2003.
TMOliver - 25 Feb 2007 21:21 GMT Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled untruth....
Gee, a.shole, you'll have to explain why government health care could reduce the cost of bureaucratic paper shuffling by almost 2/3. Those of us who deal with the federal government have generally observed the opposite to be true, as paperwork swells with the expansion of almost ever federally adminsistered service. Medicare itself is veritablee legend when it comes to expanding the burden of paperwork.
And, you contentious but dimwitted blivit, the plan for which I'm a trustee, HBP, AKA "Housing Benefit Plan" participates in a variety of contracted arrangements for discounted medical services and prescriptions (in 13 states). Our premiums are high, because our groups average age is a bit more than 50, not because of admin costs.
Your blatant ignorance concerning health care (other than the ability to cut and paste the slogans fed you like Pablum from some of your "sources", veritable Wikipedias of misinformation) is so glaringly obvious as to be laughable. Have you had an independent thought since your mom forced weaning upon you, leaving you free for a life of self-absorbed searching for navel lint?
TMO
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 23:12 GMT > Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled > untruth.... > > Gee, a.shole, you'll have to explain why government health care could > reduce the cost of bureaucratic paper shuffling by almost 2/3. Well, a.shole punk, it was already described in the articles I referenced, a.shole.
Another indication of your incompetence, just like in the food borne illness discussion, a.shole.
http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1623 Jan. 14, 2004
Study Shows National Health Insurance Could Save $286 Billion on Health Care Paperwork:
Authors Say Medicare Drug Bill Will Increase Bureaucratic Costs, Reward Insurers and the AARP
A study by researchers at Harvard Medical School and Public Citizen to be published in Friday’s International Journal of Health Services finds that health care bureaucracy last year cost the United States $399.4 billion. The study estimates that national health insurance (NHI) could save at least $286 billion annually on paperwork, enough to cover all of the uninsured and to provide full prescription drug coverage for everyone in the United States.
The study was based on the most comprehensive analysis to date of health administration spending, including data on the administrative costs of health insurers, employers’ health benefit programs, hospitals, nursing homes, home care agencies, physicians and other practitioners in the United States and Canada. The authors found that bureaucracy accounts for at least 31 percent of total U.S. health spending compared to 16.7 percent in Canada. They also found that administration has grown far faster in the United States than in Canada.
http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/resources/grantsreport.jsp?filename=036617.htm&ia id=132
Administrative costs for health care in the United States significantly exceeded those in Canada in 1999. Researchers at the Cambridge Medical Care Foundation found that administrative costs per capita were $1,059 in the U.S. and $307 in Canada; these costs accounted for 31 percent of health care spending in the U.S. versus 16.7 percent in Canada. The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation provided $139,381 to support this study from July 2000 to January 2003.
To a large extent, you stupid punk, it's attributed to something called efficiency, largely arising from lack of cost shifting, a.shole.
>Those of us who deal with the federal government have generally observed >the opposite to be true, as paperwork swells with the expansion of almost >ever federally adminsistered service. Medicare itself is veritablee legend >when it comes to expanding the burden of paperwork. This moron thinks private insurance doesn't entail paperwork.
What an a.shole.
> And, you contentious but dimwitted blivit, Take you insults and shove them up your punk a.s.
You haven't answered any of the points raised because you can't, you phony punk.
> the plan for which I'm a trustee, HBP, AKA "Housing Benefit Plan" Sounds phony - nothing apparent comes up on a Google search.
participates in a variety of contracted
> arrangements for discounted medical services and prescriptions (in 13 > states). Our premiums are high, because our groups average age is a bit > more than 50, not because of admin costs. Assuming this isn't a totaly false organization you claim, with a strange name for a health plan - you get paid for nothing.
It's already been pointed out that large credible studies have been done that analyze efficiencies in which the US private system comes out poorly with excessive expense.
You can do nothing but pretend its propaganda and blabber about governement paperwork, ignoring the paperwork and ineffeiciencies also present in the private system.
Does private sector always perform better than government? All anyone has to do is think about Haliburton in Iraq doing things the military used to do for itself to answer that one.
You're a third rate hack who tries to bully people and make claims of false authority. In short you're a punk.
> Your blatant ignorance concerning health care (other than the ability to > cut and paste the slogans fed you like Pablum from some of your "sources", Peer reviewed economic studies out of major universities have a lot more credibility than blathering punk like you.
> veritable Wikipedias of misinformation) is so glaringly obvious as to be > laughable. Have you had an independent thought since your mom forced > weaning upon you, leaving you free for a life of self-absorbed searching > for navel lint? You are a phony and a punk and you can take your insults and shove them up your as, punk.
> TMO Josiah Jenkins - 26 Feb 2007 02:26 GMT Whilst perusing Usenet on Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:12:28 GMT, I read these words from "J Antero" <ae@re.com> : <snip>
>Well, a.shole punk, it was already described in the articles I referenced, >a.shole. > >Another indication of your incompetence, just like in the food borne illness >discussion, a.shole. I do love how these colonial chappies use terms of endearment with each other whilst engaging in discussion.
So much so that I do believe that I will <PLONK> him, the a.shole !
-- jjj
J Antero - 26 Feb 2007 02:53 GMT > Whilst perusing Usenet on Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:12:28 GMT, I read these > words from "J Antero" <ae@re.com> : [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > So much so that I do believe that I will <PLONK> him, > the a.shole ! Yes, you are.
D. Spencer Hines - 26 Feb 2007 03:17 GMT Advantage Oliver...
Then Game, Set & Match To Oliver.
DSH
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 23:37 GMT > Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled > untruth.... > > Gee, a.shole, you'll h Here shitface- something else for you to learn from the New England Journal of Medicine.
http://www.pnhp.org/publications/a_national_health_program_for_the_united_states.php
A National Health Program for the United States: A Physicians' Proposal Abstract: Our health care system is failing. Tens of millions of people are uninsured, costs are skyrocketing, and the bureaucracy is expanding. Patchwork reforms succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time for basic change in American medicine. We propose a national health program that would (1) fully cover everyone under a single, comprehensive public insurance program; (2) pay hospitals and nursing homes a total (global) annual amount to cover all operating expenses; (3) fund capital costs through separate appropriations; (4) pay for physiciansÕ services and ambulatory services in any of three ways: through fee-for-service payments with a simplified fee schedule and mandatory acceptance of the national health program payment as the total payment for a service or procedure (assignment), through global budgets for hospitals and clinics employing salaried physicians, or on a per capital basis (capitation); (5) be funded, at least initially, from the same sources as at present, but with payments disbursed from a single pool; and (6) contain costs through savings on billing and bureaucracy, improved health planning, and the ability of the national health program, as the single payer for services to establish overall spending limits. Through this proposal, we hope to provide a pragmatic framework for public debate of fundamental health-policy reform. (N Engl J Med 1989; 320: 102-8.)
Full Text:
OUR health care system is failing. It denies access to many in need and is expensive, inefficient, and increasingly bureaucratic. The pressures of cost control, competition, and profit threaten the traditional tenets of medical practice. For patients, the misfortune of illness is often amplified by the fear of financial ruin. For physicians, the gratifications of healing often give way to anger and alienation. Patchwork reforms succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time to change fundamentally the trajectory of American medicine - to develop a comprehensive national health program for the United States.
We are physicians active in the full range of medical endeavors. We are primary care doctors and surgeons, psychiatrists and public health specialists, pathologists and administrators. We work in hospitals, clinics, private practices, health maintenance organizations (HMOs), universities, corporations, and public agencies. Some of us are young, still in training; others are greatly experienced, and some have held senior positions in American medicine.
As physicians, we constantly confront the irrationality of the present health care system. In private practice, we waste countless hours on billing and bureaucracy. For uninsured patients, we avoid procedures, consultations, and costly medications. Diagnosis-related groups (DRGs) have placed us between administrators demanding early discharge and elderly patients with no one to help at home - all the while glancing over our shoulders at the peer-review organization. In HMOs we walk a tightrope between thrift and penuriousness, too often under the pressure of surveillance by bureaucrats more concerned with the bottom line than with other measures of achievement. In public health work we are frustrated in the face of plenty; the world's richest health care system is unable to ensure such basic services as prenatal care and immunizations.
Despite our disparate perspectives, we are united by dismay at the current state of medicine and by the conviction that an alternative must be developed. We hope to spark debate, to transform disaffection with what exists into a vision of what might be. To this end, we submit for public review, comment, and revision a working plan for a rational and humane health care system - a national health program.
We envisage a program that would be federally mandated and ultimately funded by the federal government but administered largely at the state and local level. The proposed system would eliminate financial barriers to care; minimize economic incentives for both excessive and insufficient care, discourage administrative interference and expense, improve the distribution of health facilities, and control costs by curtailing bureaucracy and fostering health planning. Our plan borrows many features from the Canadian national health program and adapts them to the unique circumstances of the United States. We suggest that, as in Canada's provinces, the national health program be tested initially in statewide demonstration projects. Thus, our proposal addresses both the structure of the national health program and the transition process necessary to implement the program in a single state. In each section below, we present a key feature of the proposal, followed by the rationale for our approach. Areas such as long-term care; public, occupational, environmental, and mental health; and medical education need much more development and will be addressed in detail in future proposals.
COVERAGE
Everyone would be included in a single public plan covering all medically necessary services, including acute, rehabilitative, long-term, and home care; mental health services; dental services; occupational health care; prescription drugs and medical supplies; and preventive and public health measures. Boards of experts and community representatives would determine which services were unnecessary or ineffective, and these would be excluded from coverage. As in Canada, alternative insurance coverage for services included under the national health program would be eliminated, as would patient copayments and deductibles.
Universal coverage would solve the gravest problem in health care by eliminating financial barriers to care. A single comprehensive program is necessary both to ensure equal access to care and to minimize the complexity and expense of billing and administration. The public administration of insurance funds would save tens of billions of dollars each year. The more than 1500 private health insurers in the United States now consume about 8 percent of revenues for overhead, whereas both the Medicare program and the Canadian national health program have overhead costs of only 2 to 3 percent. The complexity of our current insurance system, with its multiplicity of payers, forces U .S. hospitals to spend more than twice as much as Canadian hospitals on billing and administration and requires U .S. physicians to spend about 10 percent of their gross incomes on excess billing costs.1 Eliminating insurance programs that duplicated the national health program coverage, though politically thorny, would clearly be within the prerogative of the Congress.2 Failure to do so would require the continuation of the costly bureaucracy necessary to administer and deal with such programs.
Copayments and deductibles endanger the health of poor people who are sick,3 decrease the use of vital inpatient medical services as much as they discourage the use of unnecessary ones,4 discourage preventive care,5 and are unwieldy and expensive to administer. Canada has few such charges, yet health costs are lower than in 1he United States and have risen slowly.6,7 In the United States, in contrast, increasing copayments and deductibles have failed to slow the escalation of costs.
Instead of the confused and often unjust dictates of insurance companies, a greatly expanded program of technology assessment and cost-effectiveness evaluation would guide decisions about covered services, as well as about the allocation of funds for capital spending, drug formularies, and other issues.
PAYMENT FOR HOSPITAL SERVICES
Each hospital would receive an annual lump-sum payment to cover all operating expenses - a "global" budget. The amount of this payment would be negotiated with the state national health program payment board and would be based on past expenditures, previous financial and clinical performance, projected changes in levels of services, wages and other costs, and proposed new and innovative programs. Hospitals would not bill for services covered by the national health program. No part of the operating budget could be used for hospital expansion, profit, marketing, or major capital purchases or leases. These expenditures would also come from the national health program fund, but monies for them would be appropriated separately.
Global prospective budgeting would simplify hospital administration and virtually eliminate billing, thus freeing up substantial resources for increased clinical care. Before the nationwide implementation of the national health program, hospitals in the states with demonstration programs could bill out-of-state patients on a simple per diem basis. Prohibiting the use of operating funds for capital purchases or profit would eliminate the main financial incentive for both excessive intervention (under fee-for-service payment) and skimping on care (under DRG-type prospective-payment systems), since neither inflating revenues nor limiting care could result in gain for the institution. The separate appropriation of funds explicitly designated for capital expenditures would facilitate rational health planning. In Canada, this method of hospital payment has been successful in containing costs, minimizing bureaucracy, improving the distribution of health resources, and maintaining the quality of care.6-9 It shifts the focus of hospital administration away from the bottom line and toward the provision of optimal clinical services.
PAYMENT FOR PHYSICIANS' SERVICES, AMBULATORY CARE, AND MEDICAL HOME CARE
To minimize the disruption of existing patterns of care, the national health program would include three payment options for physicians and other practitioners: fee-for-service payment, salaried positions in institutions receiving global budgets, and salaried positions within group practices or HMOs receiving per capita (capitation) payments.
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 23:38 GMT > Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled > untruth.... Here's another, punk.
Administrative Waste Consumes 31 Percent of Health Spending
PNHP Co-founders Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein published this definitive study of the administrative costs of the U.S. health system in the August 21, 2003 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine. After analyzing the costs of insurers, employers, doctors, hospitals, nursing homes and home-care agencies in both the U.S. and Canada, they found that administration consumes 31.0 percent of U.S. health spending, double the proportion of Canada (16.7 percent). Average overhead among private U.S. insurers was 11.7 percent, compared with 1.3 percent for Canada’s single-payer system and 3.6 percent for Medicare. Streamlined to Canadian levels, enough administrative waste could be saved to provide compressive health insurance to all Americans.
Read “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada” (pdf)
dapra - 26 Feb 2007 17:41 GMT >>Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled >>untruth.... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Read “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada” (pdf) It's a good attempt to educate right wingers. But they don't read the New England Journal of Medicine or even quotes from it. Right wingers only regurgitate talking point without providing any data. If they do, they just pull them out of their a.ses, and they are unable to give any link to verify it.
An example, "...I mean for every dollar appropiated [by the US government] only 25 cents actually makes it to the beneficiary." by Kurt Ullman. No proof given.
The tactic is, throw out some lies, and most or at least some of their brain dead cohorts will believe them. The Bush regime is practicing this for 6 year. It did work for 4.
I appreciate your data.
TMOliver - 26 Feb 2007 18:09 GMT Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious....
Medicare's "low" cost of adminsistration is due to the fact that every claiming provider of services must complete all the documentation (and accurately), leaving the Medicare contractee little to do but write the check.
If you added the first line providers' admin costs, the Medicare papertrail, even longer than the clumsy third party system, makes the overall cost of servicehigh.
Apples and oranges (but then between dapra and antero, any comparison requiring the capacity to distinguish issues greater than currants and raisins would transcend intellectual challenge and run into mutual inability to reason).
dapra - 26 Feb 2007 18:50 GMT > Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious.... Some nethics; If one replies to a post, he should not delete the original one. But you have a long way to learn nethics or ethics.
> Medicare's "low" cost of adminsistration is due to the fact that every > claiming provider of services must complete all the documentation (and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > even longer than the clumsy third party system, makes the overall cost of > servicehigh. You make a good point. Can you substantiate it?
> Apples and oranges (but then between dapra and antero, any comparison > requiring the capacity to distinguish issues greater than currants and > raisins would transcend intellectual challenge and run into mutual inability > to reason). Well, just give some data, not BS.
J Antero - 26 Feb 2007 22:57 GMT > Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious.... > > Medicare's "low" cost of adminsistration is due to the fact that every > claiming provider of services must complete all the documentation (and > accurately), leaving the Medicare contractee little to do but write the > check. This abusive little liar wants to pretend that the large scale health economics studies already cited in this thread (including one by Harvard Medical School), ignored obvious cost factors in their analysis, and then they published in leading journals for all the world to see. I don't think so.
He is not a reliable or honest source - or maybe the "blivit" (to borrow a term he likes to apply to other people) doesn't know any better..
Twice in this thread he has said that he is trustee of an insurance provider and says:
"Our premiums are high, because our groups average age is a bit more than 50, not because of admin costs."
This a inapt thing to say for anyone to say, who actually knows about health insurance.
Premiums in private sector insurance ALWAYS increase with the age of the insured. They increase a lot because older people use more medical care and drugs. Is this news to the blivit?
$400 a month might a low premium for a 60 yr old, and a very high premium for a 20 yr old.
Does the blivit think the plan is charging everyone the same (high) premium, irregardless of age, and the premiums are high because the younger members are carrying the costs of the older?
That would be odd if it's the case. Given free choice, the younger people would simply drop the coverage and go to plans offering cheaper rates based on their lower age.
In any case, the blivit has done about the same on this issue as he did on a previous one on food borne illness.
Here's some info that can provide an overview of how the US healthcare system compares with those of other rich nations.
It's a "macroeconomic" report on health care costs and results between the US and some other developed nations.
Bottom line - it shows we spend a lot more, and get somewhat lower results.
It's from a highly credible international organization, the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development ).
[OECD groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to democratic government and the market economy. With active relationships with some 70 other countries and economies, NGOs and civil society, it has a global reach. Best known for its publications and its statistics, its work covers economic and social issues from macroeconomics, to trade, education, development and science and innovation.]
OECD Health Data 2005
How Does the United States Compare http://www.oecd.org/searchResult/0,2665,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
Health spending and financing
Total health spending accounted for 15% of GDP in the United States in 2003, the highest share in the OECD and more than six percentage points higher than the average of 8.6% in OECD countries. By comparison, Switzerland and Germany allocated 11 and 11.5% of their GDP to health, respectively, and Canada and France about 10%.
[Compared to other rich countries, the US spends a lot more on health, but as is shown further on, is getting lower results. ]
The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of total health spending per capita, with spending of 5,635 USD (adjusted for purchasing power parity), more than twice the OECD average of 2,307 USD in 2003. Switzerland and Norway come just after with spending of about 3,800 USD per capita. Differences in health spending across countries may reflect differences in price, volume and quality of medical goods and services consumed.
Between 1998 and 2003, health spending per capita in the United States increased in real terms by 4.6% per year on average, a growth rate comparable to the OECD average of 4.5% per year. Over the past decade, the share of health expenditure spent on pharmaceuticals in the United States increased from 8.6% of total health spending in 1993 to 12.9% in 2003. This remained below the OECD average of 17.7%. In 2003, the United States was the top spender on pharmaceuticals (with 728 USD per capita, adjusted for purchasing power parity), followed by France, Canada and Italy.
The public sector is the main source of health funding in all OECD countries, except for the United States, Mexico and Korea. In the United States, only 44% of health spending is funded by government revenues, well below the average of 72% in OECD countries. The public share of total health spending remains the lowest of OECD countries, compared for instance with the Nordic countries (Denmark, Norway and Sweden) where it reaches more than 80% of total health spending.
In the United States, private insurance accounts for 37% of total health spending, by far the largest share among OECD countries. Beside the United States, Canada, France and the Netherlands also have a relatively large share of funding coming from private insurance (more than 10%).
Resources in the health sector (human, physical)
Despite the relatively high level of health expenditure in the United States, there are fewer physicians per capita than in most other OECD countries. In 2002, the United States had 2.3 practising physicians per 1 000 population, below the OECD average of 2.9. There were 7.9 nurses per 1 000 population in the United States in 2002, which is slightly lower than the average of 8.2 across OECD countries.
The number of acute care hospital beds in the United States in 2003 was 2.8 per 1 000 population, also lower than the OECD average of 4.1 beds per 1 000 population. As in most OECD countries, the number of hospital beds per capita has fallen over the past twenty years, from 4.4 beds per 1 000 population in 1980 to 2.8 in 2003. This decline has coincided with a reduction in average length of stays in hospitals and an increase in day-surgery patients.
Health status and risk factors
Most OECD countries have enjoyed large gains in life expectancy over the past 40 years. In the United States, life expectancy at birth increased by 7.3 years between 1960 and 2002, which is less than the increase of 14 years in life expectancy in Japan, or of 8.4 years in Canada. In 2002/3, life expectancy in the United States stood at 77.2 years, below the OECD average of 77.8 years. Japan, Iceland, Spain, Switzerland and Australia were among the top 5 countries registering the highest life expectancy among OECD countries.
Infant mortality rates in the United States have fallen greatly over the past few decades, but not as much as in most other OECD countries. It stood at 7 deaths per 1 000 live births in 2002, above the OECD average of 6.1.1 Among OECD countries, infant mortality is the lowest in Japan and in the Nordic countries (Iceland, Sweden, Finland and Norway), all below 3.5 deaths per 1 000 live births.
The proportion of daily smokers among the adult population has shown a marked decline over recent decades across most OECD countries. Much of this decline can be attributed to policies aimed at reducing tobacco consumption through public awareness campaigns, advertising bans and increased taxation. In the United States, the proportion of smokers among adults has fallen from 33.5% in 1980 to 17.5% in 2003, the lowest rate among OECD countries along with Canada and Sweden.
At the same time, obesity rates have increased in recent decades in all OECD countries for which trend data is available. There remain however notable differences in obesity rates across countries. In the United States, the obesity rate among adults (30.6% in 2002) is the highest in OECD countries, followed by Mexico (24.2% in 2000) and the United Kingdom (23% in 2003).2 Obesity rates in Continental European countries are lower, but are also rising. The time lag between the onset of obesity and increases in related chronic diseases (such as diabetes and asthma) suggest that the rise in obesity that has occurred in the United States and other OECD countries, will have substantial implications for future incidence of health problems and related spending.
More information on OECD Health Data 2005 is available at www.oecd.org/health/healthdata.
For more information on OECD's work on the United States, please visit www.oecd.org/us. 1 Some of the international variation in infant mortality rates is due to variations in registering practices of premature infants (whether they are reported as live births or not). In the United States, Canada and the Nordic countries, very premature babies (with relatively low odds of survival) are registered as live births, which increases mortality rates compared with other countries that do not register them as live births. 2 It should be noted however that the data for the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia are more accurate than those from other countries since they are based on actual measures of people’s height and weight, while estimates for other countries are based on self-reported data, which generally under-estimate the real prevalence of obesity.
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 02:10 GMT > The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of > total health spending per [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > differences in price, volume > and quality of medical goods and services consumed. They may also reflect the fact that the other governments say what they are going to pay and artifically lower prices. They also may because they undertreat as shown by, among others, your beloved New England Journal.. "esults The Canadian patients typically stayed in the hospital one day longer (P = 0.009) than the U.S. patients but had a much lower rate of cardiac catheterization (25 percent vs. 72 percent, P<0.001), coronary angioplasty (11 percent vs. 29 percent, P<0.001), and coronary bypass surgery (3 percent vs. 14 percent, P<0.001). At one year 24 percent of the Canadian and 53 percent of the U.S. patients had undergone angioplasty or bypass surgery at least once (P<0.001). The Canadians had more visits to physicians during the follow-up year (P<0.001), but fewer visits to specialists (P<0.001). At 30 days, functional status was equivalent in the patients from the two countries. However, after one year the U.S. patients had substantially more improvement than the Canadian patients (P<0.001). The prevalence of chest pain and dyspnea at one year was higher among the Canadian patients (34 percent vs. 21 percent and 45 percent vs. 29 percent, respectively; P<0.001). Conclusions The Canadian patients had more cardiac symptoms and worse functional status one year after acute myocardial infarction than the U.S. patients. The Canadian patients also underwent fewer invasive cardiac procedures and had fewer visits to specialist physicians. These results suggest, but do not prove, that the more aggressive pattern of care in the United States may have been responsible for the better quality of life.
Volume 331:1130-1135
October 27, 1994
Number 17
Use of Medical Resources and Quality of Life after Acute Myocardial Infarction in Canada and the United States Daniel B. Mark, C. David Naylor, Mark A. Hlatky, Robert M. Califf, Eric J. Topol, Christopher B. Granger, J. David Knight, Charlotte L. Nelson, Kerry L. Lee, Nancy E. Clapp-Channing, Wanda Sutherland, Louise Pilote, and Paul W. Armstrong.
More recently:
Long-term mortality of patients with acute myocardial infarction in the United States and Canada: comparison of patients enrolled in Global Utilization of Streptokinase and t-PA for Occluded Coronary Arteries (GUSTO)-I. € Kaul P, Armstrong PW, Chang WC, Naylor CD, Granger CB, Lee KL, Peterson ED, Califf RM, Topol EJ, Mark DB. "CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest, for the first time, that the more conservative pattern of care with regard to early revascularization in Canada for ST-segment elevation acute myocardial infarction may have a detrimental effect on long-term survival. Our results have important policy implications for cardiac care in countries and healthcare systems wherein use of invasive procedures is similarly conservative."
Yet Another: comparison of U.S. and Canadian cardiac catheterization practices in detecting severe coronary artery disease after myocardial infarction: efficiency, yield and long-term implications. € Batchelor WB, Peterson ED, Mark DB, Knight JD, Granger CB, Armstrong PW, Califf RM. CONCLUSIONS: Canada's more restrictive post-MI cardiac catheterization strategy is no more efficient in identifying severe CAD than the aggressive U.S. strategy, and may fail to identify a substantial number of post-MI patients with high risk coronary anatomy. The long-term impact of these differences in practice patterns requires further evaluation.
The Canadian Supreme Court would also agree In Canada a patient had no choice but to go along with the Canadian system. A patient could not seek private treatment in Canada. Canada's Supreme Court struck that requirement down with force. Let me provide you with a few quotes from the decision. "Many patients on non-urgent waiting lists are in pain and cannot fully enjoy any real quality of life." In another quote, the court said: "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care."
This is further shown by looking at the various diseases as reported by WHO and others. Breast cancer is fatal to 25% of American victims while it kills 46% of those it strikes in Canada and New Zealand. Prostate cancer fatal to 19% of Americans while the figures in Canada is 25% and 57% in the UK.
> Most OECD countries have enjoyed large gains in life expectancy over the > past 40 years. In the United [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > highest life expectancy among > OECD countries. This is largely a function of societal causes than it is health care system. For example, every young gang banger that gets killed in a drive by "costs" more in this equation than a 60 year old dude who is kept alive another ten years. In fact, I would submit that the health devlivery system may actually be making it look better than otherwise. For example, a recent study attributed part of the decline in the murder rate to improved trauma care over the last 20-30 years. Many who would have died and become murder victims are now living and merely victims of assault. For example see: Medical advances may explain homicide decline Improvements at all stages of postassault care have improved outcomes, but physicians say achievements may be threatened by trauma center and emergency department closures. By Victoria Stagg Elliott, AMNews staff. Sept. 2, 2002. Include higher drug use and its impact on life expectancy, etc, etc, etc. Much of the difference is involved with things that are not the purview of the health care system.
> Infant mortality rates in the United States have fallen greatly over the > past few decades, but not as much [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > countries (Iceland, Sweden, Finland and Norway), all below 3.5 deaths per 1 > 000 live births. Again societal issues impact on this. Higher levels of teenage pregnancies, pregnancies of drug addicted moms, all have been linked to low birth weight babies at much higher levels than seen elsewhere. Also higher levels of in vitro fertilization especially in older women, lead to more multiple births and those more preterm and LBW babies. These preterm babies (largely driven by societal things outside of the control of the medical profession..although they are trying) contributed to the rise in the infant mortality figures according to the CCD (according to the study published in Pediatrics.)
> The proportion of daily smokers among the adult population has shown a > marked decline over recent [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in 1980 to 17.5% in 2003, > the lowest rate among OECD countries along with Canada and Sweden. Again societal since the medical profession health care industry has little control over public awareness campaigns and especially advertising bans and increased taxation. (Although the studies DO show American docs aren't as aggressive as they could be in getting patients to quit.)
> At the same time, obesity rates have increased in recent decades in all OECD > countries for which trend [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > for future incidence of health > problems and related spending. Again outside the direct control of the health care system.
> 1 Some of the international variation in infant mortality rates is due to > variations in registering practices of premature [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > increases mortality rates compared with other countries that do not register > them as live births. Yet another indication of above.
J Antero - 27 Feb 2007 22:52 GMT >> The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms >> of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> differences in price, volume >> and quality of medical goods and services consumed.
> They may also reflect the fact that the other governments say what > they are going to pay and artifically lower prices. They also may > because they undertreat as shown by, among others, your beloved New > England Journal.. You missed the point. The results of the OECD study showed the other rich nations paid much less in healthcare and got somewhat better results.
If they gave poorer care they would not get better results.
The New England Jl of Medicine is one of the most prestigious and credible publications on medicine in the world. Most people are aware of that.
The New England Jl of Medicine physicians article (cited in another post) was not "research" as you called it - it was an article describing problems US physicians encounter with the health insurance paperwork system in the US,
Much (but not all) of the problem arises from a system of multiple payers trying to shift responsibilty for payment onto other entities.
It was on the physicians organization's web page, currently.
It's not old "research" - it's an article published in 1989 which they say still pertains to the current situation.
<snip>
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 23:17 GMT > You missed the point. The results of the OECD study showed the other rich > nations paid much less in healthcare and got somewhat better results. > > If they gave poorer care they would not get better results. You missed the point in that there are indications from other places (including other articles in the NEJM)that indicate otherwise.
> The New England Jl of Medicine physicians article (cited in another post) > was not "research" as you called it - it was an article describing problems > US physicians encounter with the health insurance paperwork system in the > US, Nonsense the first one was on actual results and outcomes and was published in your gold standard of the NEJM. One was long term outcomes of the GUSTO study, long term multi-center trial and the third was another trial, the fourth was a discussion of the Canadian system by the country's own Supreme Court that found lousy outcomes. Then was a study of different outcomes by the World Health Organization. WIth the exception of the Canada Supreme's decision, all were well controlled studies, peer-reviewed and published in well-respected journals. All showed at least areas where the outcomes they were measuring were better in the US.
> Much (but not all) of the problem arises from a system of multiple payers > trying to shift responsibilty for payment onto other entities. Yo do know that for every $1 an evil insurance company pays for a procedure, MCare pays only about 65cents and MCaid even less. If anybody is shifting responsibility it is more likely the federal programs. They are the ones with monopsonistic power. Another problem are the costs involved with MCare's billing and paperwork requirements.
J Antero - 28 Feb 2007 01:06 GMT >> You missed the point. The results of the OECD study showed the other >> rich [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nonsense the first one was on actual results and outcomes and was > published in your gold standard of the NEJM. Nonsense is right. I think you're confused.
The only NEJM two articles I mentioned and clipped from were:
1] from a current website, an article published in the New England Journal of Medicine, in 1989.
http://www.pnhp.org/publications/a_national_health_program_for_the_united_states.php
A National Health Program for the United States: A Physicians' Proposal Abstract: Our health care system is failing. Tens of millions of people are uninsured, costs are skyrocketing, and the bureaucracy is expanding. Patchwork reforms succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time for basic change in American medicine. We propose a national health program that would (1) fully cover everyone under a single, comprehensive public insurance program; (2) pay hospitals and nursing homes a total (global) annual amount to cover all operating expenses; (3) fund capital costs through separate appropriations; (4) pay for physiciansÕ services and ambulatory services in any of three ways: through fee-for-service payments with a simplified fee schedule and mandatory acceptance of the national health program payment as
2] Administrative Waste Consumes 31 Percent of Health Spending
PNHP Co-founders Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein published this definitive study of the administrative costs of the U.S. health system in the August 21, 2003 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine. After analyzing the costs of insurers, employers, doctors, hospitals, nursing homes and home-care agencies in both the U.S. and Canada, they found that administration consumes 31.0 percent of U.S. health spending, double the proportion of Canada (16.7 percent). Average overhead among private U.S. insurers was 11.7 percent, compared with 1.3 percent for Canada’s single-payer system and 3.6 percent for Medicare. Streamlined to Canadian levels, enough administrative waste could be saved to provide compressive health insurance to all Americans.
Read “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada” (pdf)
3] Then I mentioned the OECD study which is an international macroeconomic study comparing US healthcare costs and outcomes.
OECD Health Data 2005
How Does the United States Compare http://www.oecd.org/searchResult/0,2665,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
Health spending and financing
Total health spending accounted for 15% of GDP in the United States in 2003, the highest share in the OECD and more than six percentage points higher than the average of 8.6% in OECD countries. By comparison, Switzerland and Germany allocated 11 and 11.5% of their GDP to health, respectively, and Canada and France about 10%.
[Compared to other rich countries, the US spends a lot more on health, but as is shown further on, is getting lower results. ]
The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of total health spending per capita, with spending of 5,635 USD (adjusted for purchasing power parity), more than twice the OECD average of 2,307 USD in 2003. Switzerland and Norway come just after with spending of about 3,800 USD per capita. Differences in health spending across countries may reflect differences in price, volume and quality of medical goods and services consumed.
Between 1998 and 2003, health spending per capita in the United States increased in real terms by 4.6% per year on average, a growth rate comparable to the OECD average of 4.5% per year. Over the past decade, the share of health expenditure spent on pharmaceuticals in the United States increased from 8.6% of total health spending in 1993 to 12.9% in 2003. This remained below the OECD average of 17.7%. In 2003, the United States was the top spender on pharmaceuticals (with 728 USD per capita, adjusted for purchasing power parity), followed by France, Canada and Italy.
The public sector is the main source of health funding in all OECD countries, except for the United States, Mexico and Korea. In the United States, only 44% of health spending is funded by government revenues, well below the average of 72% in OECD countries. The public share of total health spending remains the lowest of OECD countries, compared for instance with the Nordic countries (Denmark, Norway and Sweden) where it reaches more than 80% of total health spending.
In the United States, private insurance accounts for 37% of total health spending, by far the largest share among OECD countries. Beside the United States, Canada, France and the Netherlands also have a relatively large share of funding coming from private insurance (more than 10%).
Above is what I have made reference to.
>one was long term outcomes > of the GUSTO study, long term multi-center trial and the third was > another trial, the fourth was a discussion of the Canadian system I think you must be confused - I haven't made reference to any GUSTO study.
by the
> country's own Supreme Court that found lousy outcomes. Then was a study > of different outcomes by the World Health Organization. WIth the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Another problem are the costs involved with MCare's billing and > paperwork requirements. Kurt Ullman - 28 Feb 2007 12:47 GMT > . > > > > Nonsense the first one was on actual results and outcomes and was > > published in your gold standard of the NEJM. > > Nonsense is right. I think you're confused. Confused don't even begin to cover it.
> The only NEJM two articles I mentioned and clipped from were:
> Above is what I have made reference to. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I think you must be confused - I haven't made reference to any GUSTO study. That is because *I* made reference to additional NEJM studies and thhe GUSTO studies which showed less than optimal outcomes in Canada when compared to the US on several cardiac and other related parameters. Google or otherwise dig up my original posts.
TMOliver - 27 Feb 2007 16:06 GMT Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find out that his employer's health insurance plan charges all the participants the same premiums for the same package of benefits (except those already over 65 and on Medicare for whom Medicare is the principal provider and the eamployer plan a secondary supplement).
The 20 year olds pay the same as the ancient over 50s, bad actuarial policy, but designed to comply with any number of regulatory constraints. Employers may offer a choice of variety of plans with different levels of benefits.
"Pools", almost all of which are non-profit entities, of necessity set their premiums based on the actuarila experience of their membership, statistical microcosms, not macros. "Old" groups have higher premiums. Profit-making third party insurors follow exactly the same plicy, determining the premium for an employee group based on experience and average age, a predictor of future experience.
Either antero's on welfare or his grasp of reality is even less than displayed to date, amplified only by the presence of an issue of JAMA, yet unusued for TP in his outhouse.
One of the strongest reasons that Congress has always had so much trouble designing an acceptable national health insurance plan is that (a) "old" folks vote in great numbers and percentages and would surely turn out of office electees who forced them to pay more than younkers for coverage. On the other hand, if the younkers are taxed/otherwise levied at a greater rate than their elders, they might rush to the polls to defenestrate the pols.
Also, the wee lad is under the misconception that I'm somehow opposed to a national health plan. Hell, ant, you miserble dufflebutted dimwit, I'm for national health insurance, already being on Medicare and able to participate in TRiCare from military retirement. Some workable national health plan, whatever that may be, is the only way to level the playing field in which the very poor the affluent, and young adults who risk living "uncovered" (not much of a risk) profit most from the current system, while the lowewr middle class are challenged to pay for care which the affluent can afford and the poor can receive at little or no cost.
When a modestly effective level of health insurance costs the average US family something near $1,000 a month, more than most households pay in combined income and social security taxes, the system is not working. Along with the burden of administrative costs, the health "industry" has built in levels of duplication and redundancy.
To build in a bit of smn content....(since that's where I post and read)....
As a veteran, I'll even insult fellow US vets here by writing that nowhere is that duplication and redundancy more obvious than in the maintenance of a cumbersome, much of it obsolete parallel system for the delivery of services, most of which, except for treatment for mental illness and related conditions (inc. the inevitable decline of advancing years).
As an example, I suspect that it costs Uncle Sam more to provide vets with prescription drugs through VA pharmacies than it does for the vets to obtain the drugs through one of the contract providers for TriCare (andf likely more than the Health Plan of which I'm a trustee and its members to deliver the same drugs through discount purchase arrangements and "prescriuption coverage".
Vince - 27 Feb 2007 18:36 GMT > Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status > apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The 20 year olds pay the same as the ancient over 50s, bad actuarial > policy, Only if signing up is voluntary. If it is not you don't have adverse selection or moral hazard. You even out costs over the lifetime.
> As a veteran, I'll even insult fellow US vets here by writing that > nowhere is that duplication and redundancy more obvious than in the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and its members to deliver the same drugs through discount purchase > arrangements and "prescriuption coverage". you would be wrong VA and DOD pay the lowest prices for pharmaceuticals
http://opencrs.cdt.org/rpts/RL33802_20070117.pdf
Vince
Ken Wood - 27 Feb 2007 18:37 GMT > Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status > apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but designed to comply with any number of regulatory constraints. Employers > may offer a choice of variety of plans with different levels of benefits. Not always. I was on an employer group plan some years back that amongst the various options the premiums did vary with age of participant.
KW
> "Pools", almost all of which are non-profit entities, of necessity set their > premiums based on the actuarila experience of their membership, statistical [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > the same drugs through discount purchase arrangements and "prescriuption > coverage". Peter Skelton - 27 Feb 2007 21:38 GMT >> Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status >> apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find out [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >amongst the various options the premiums did vary with age of >participant. Sure and you can buy level premium private insurance (the best deal if you're under 40 and can afford the increased premiums in the early years)
Peter Skelton
J Antero - 27 Feb 2007 22:55 GMT > Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status > apparently beyond his marginal capacity, Sounds like a little projection going on there. That would be consistent his quality of posting.
> but were he, he'd soon find out > that his employer's health insurance plan charges all the participants the > same premiums for the same package of benefits (except those already over > 65 and on Medicare for whom Medicare is the principal provider and the > eamployer plan a secondary supplement). Again, you resort to insult instead of honest argument and try to shift arguments.
You like insults? Fine. You are an incompetent TWIT who tries to use insult and blather to cover your own weakness.
You stated that you were a trustee of a small non-profit health insurance provider.
That's what YOU said, idiot. NOT a corporation or government organization which *subsidizes* its employees' health insurance costs, which you then go on to mislead about.
You also said that the premiums were high in your insurance plan because most of the participants were older.
I pointed out, that the younger participants, given free choice, should seek cheaper age scaled medical insurance (or a group with a younger demographic).
Olive oil couldn't understand the economic point. Olive oil probably still can't. So much for Olive oil's economic insight.
Going off on mis-tangents pretending ignorance on the part of others won't work here.
Notice that he also couldn't address the issue in the subject line: An OECD healthcare comparison of US to other countries.
You are a phony and all your punky blather is just that - punky blather .
<snip blather>
J Antero - 26 Feb 2007 22:58 GMT > Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious.... Your dishonesty is obvious, laughable and stupid.
Below is a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989.
It gives some insight into the problems physicians face with the present system. Previous articles/studies I've posted in this thread have indicated the current US system wastes a lot of money, is delivering results that are somewhat worse than what other rich nations are getting, and costs a lot more than the systems in those countries.
Taken from the website of Physicians for a National Health Program, there's lots more.
http://www.pnhp.org/publications/a_national_health_program_for_the_united_states .php?page=all
""" As physicians, we constantly confront the irrationality of the present health care system. In private practice, we waste countless hours on billing and bureaucracy. For uninsured patients, we avoid procedures, consultations, and costly medications. Diagnosis-related groups (DRGs) have placed us between administrators demanding early discharge and elderly patients with no one to help at home - all the while glancing over our shoulders at the peer-review organization. In HMOs we walk a tightrope between thrift and penuriousness, too often under the pressure of surveillance by bureaucrats more concerned with the bottom line than with other measures of achievement. In public health work we are frustrated in the face of plenty; the world's richest health care system is unable to ensure such basic services as prenatal care and immunizations. """
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 02:13 GMT > > Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious.... > > Your dishonesty is obvious, laughable and stupid. > > Below is a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New > England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989. Gee and here I felt guilty about including a study from '92.
> """ As physicians, we constantly confront the irrationality of the present > health care system. In private practice, we waste countless hours on billing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > no one to help at home - all the while glancing over our shoulders at the > peer-review organization. DRGs are part of the Medicare system and thus are a harbinger of what to expect when the Feds take over the whole system.
Jeff Crowell - 27 Feb 2007 14:07 GMT > Below is a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New > England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > billing > and bureaucracy. Thereby supporting Tom's statement that if you consider the cost to the provider as part of the cost of Medicare, it is far more expensive than you claim.
Jeff
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 15:09 GMT > > Below is a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New > > England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jeff One rather interesting note: A recent American Medical Association survey of physicians found that more than one-third of responding doctors spend an hour completing Medicare paperwork for every four hours of patient care.
Richard F. Corlin M.D., President-Elect, American Medical Association, "Medicare Reform: Bringing Regulatory Relief to Beneficiaries," statement before the Subcommittee on Health, Committee on Ways and Means, U.S. House of Representatives, 107th Cong., 1st Sess., March 15, 2001, p. 12.
According to a consensus statement on Medicare reform by health care policy experts, based on a May 2001 conference on Medicare at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, "Paperwork and compliance costs have forced providers to employ staff dedicated to the process--rather than to providing health care. The increasing complication of paperwork and compliance with regulations, has resulted in less time for providers to spend with patients."26
For example, the Mayo Foundation has estimated that the number of pages of federal regulations and related paperwork that doctors and hospitals must comply with in order to treat Medicare and Medicaid patients totals more than 132,000 pages--almost 111,000 of which govern Medicare alone. This is roughly six times the size of the impossibly complex Internal Revenue Service code and its federal tax regulations.
The March 1998 edition of Physicians Management reported that one group practice of 284 physicians pays between $130,000 and $195,000 per month for dictation and transcription costs associated with preparation of patient files to comply with Medicare record-keeping requirements. Those figures do not take into account the costs associated with all other compliance activities performed by the group. Another cost of administering the MCare system that is conveniently ignored.
From the American College of Physicians: Physician concerns about the billing paperwork and administration required by Medicare are leading many to limit their acceptance of Medicare patients. According to a recent survey of physicians, almost 75 percent were concerned about this "hassle factor" and 16 percent said that they had limited their acceptance of Medicare patients because of this factor. [Source: Preliminary MedPAC Survey of Access to Physician Services, September 2002].
(Which BTW is also one of the reasons that docs in many specialties are no longer accepting new MCare patients.
Anyway, some interesting tidbits about Mcare total administrative costs are being buried if not out right ignored.
Akorps@aol.com - 27 Feb 2007 09:58 GMT Government generally is least efficient, followed by non-profit, while for-profit tends to be most efficient.
The problem with government is that incentives tend to be to be as inefficient as possible, only becoming efficient in response to public pressure.
Non-profits tend to be idealistic but stupid, hence inefficient, barely scraping by at the balance point between income and expenses.
There is so much inefficiency to be wringed out of the non-profit sector that for-profit business invariably cleans their clock, despite the 20% or so profit margin. The problem with the for-profit sector is spillover costs, again public pressure is needed to eliminate those spillover costs.
J Antero - 24 Feb 2007 16:28 GMT >>>>The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by >>>>being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. They > are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'. Well, the number I've heard from experts in media interviews is more like 30 pct.
Coporate power is only effective when there is no overriding voter pressure for something to be done.
Until she displayed what a mess she was in the process of creating, the Congress was not in the mood to resist the public will.
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