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The Empty Pantsuit?

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D. Spencer Hines - 23 Feb 2007 23:19 GMT
The Empty Pantsuit

On Tuesday we noted that the New York Times, in an article about Hillary
Clinton's weaseling around about Iraq, took a totally cynical approach, not
even considering the question of what if anything she sincerely believes.

Further evidence that this is how the Times views Hillary comes in a piece
today on the tiff between Mrs. Clinton and Barack Obama. Savor this Adam
Nagourney paragraph:

 For Mrs. Clinton, the risks of going after Mr. Obama included the
possibility that some voters would view her as driven more by tactical
war-room politics than by the domestic and foreign policy issues they are
most concerned about.

If a politician worries "that some voters would view her as driven more by
tactical war-room politics than by the domestic and foreign-policy issues
they are most concerned about," what does that tell you about her? That she
is driven more by tactical war-room politics than by the issues! In this one
paragraph, Nagourney has taken cynicism about Mrs. Clinton to transcendent
heights.

James Taranto
The Wall Street Journal
J Antero - 23 Feb 2007 23:58 GMT
The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by
being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married him
as part of a long term plan to get where she is now, politically.

She's never distinguished herself by anything she's done on her own.

The one big political project she was in charge of (health care reform) was
handed to her despite lack of any credetials, and she completely f.cked up
what should have been an easy achievement.

She's a dessicated feminist and if she's elected she could very well be
worse than what we have now - in different ways and directions.

> The Empty Pantsuit
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> James Taranto
> The Wall Street Journal
dapra - 24 Feb 2007 01:01 GMT
> The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by
> being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married him
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> handed to her despite lack of any credetials, and she completely f.cked up
> what should have been an easy achievement.

I'm not fan of Hillary, but C'on, be real! Easy achievement? You
obviously have no idea of the many interests tied to the medical
establishment. I would congratulate her to try to solve the problem. Of
course not for her failure.

> She's a dessicated feminist and if she's elected she could very well be
> worse than what we have now - in different ways and directions.
Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 01:12 GMT
> > The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by
> > being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married him
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> establishment. I would congratulate her to try to solve the problem. Of
> course not for her failure.

  FWIW, having followed health care policy for neigh on to 25  years
now, Hillary's plan was essentially the same one Teddy Kennedy had been
floating for a few years before, repackaged a little.
J Antero - 24 Feb 2007 02:16 GMT
>> The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by
>> being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> would congratulate her to try to solve the problem. Of course not for her
> failure.

Bullshit.

At the time there was a great deal of media exposure of the failings of the
American health insurance system - not the medical care system. There was a
lot of public (voter) desire for reform.

Most conservatives were reconciled to some type of major reform.

Instead of putting up a simple system of a single Federally administered
health insurance system, she proposed a bizarre complicated system that made
medical people into government employees.

It was a gift to the people who are looting the system and their
politicians - some senator put up a graphic showing her bizarre
organizational plan that was enough to shock anyone into disbelief and
rejection.

At the same time, the Soviet Union was collapasing from the accumulated
affects of the same sort of thing that the stupid assed feminist was
proposing.

Any competent person could have got through a good reform that would have
doen much in terms of macro economics and humane effective health care.
dapra - 24 Feb 2007 02:47 GMT
>>>The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by
>>>being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Any competent person could have got through a good reform that would have
> doen much in terms of macro economics and humane effective health care.

The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost.
They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.
Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 04:21 GMT
> The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost.
> They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.

 And the feds take about 75 cents off the top for most welfare
programs. They even have to cook the books to get MCare under what the
insurance companies take off the top by pretending what MCare spends to
oversee the fiscal intermediaries is all their "overhead."   When you
factor in what the FIs get for doing the actual heavy lifting of writing
the checks, etc., Mcare has roughly the same administrative costs as
private insurance.
dapra - 24 Feb 2007 05:02 GMT
>>The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost.
>>They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.
>
>   And the feds take about 75 cents off the top for most welfare
> programs.

I need some explanation. Do you mean the fed pays a dollar, but get 75c
back? That sounds unbelievable. Of course the insurance companies pay
nothing but take their cut of 20%.

> They even have to cook the books to get MCare under what the
> insurance companies take off the top by pretending what MCare spends to
> oversee the fiscal intermediaries is all their "overhead."   When you
> factor in what the FIs get for doing the actual heavy lifting of writing
> the checks, etc., Mcare has roughly the same administrative costs as
> private insurance.
Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 13:17 GMT
> >>The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost.
> >>They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nothing but take their cut of 20%.
>  
 No I mean for every dollar appropiated only 25 cents actually makes it
to the beneficiary. The rest is eaten up by the bureaucracy to process
the application, write the check, etc.  The insurance companies get only
20% so that 80% of their money buys the actual service and, unlike the
Feds, at least some of that 20% also gets to the general public as
dividends, etc.
J Antero - 24 Feb 2007 16:30 GMT
>> The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost.
>> They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the checks, etc., Mcare has roughly the same administrative costs as
> private insurance.

About half of US medical insurance is Federal, and the Federal overhead
number I've heard is 3 or 4 pct - about 1/10th what private sector insurance
eats up.

You're saying that's way off - what are your sources?
Kurt Ullman - 24 Feb 2007 17:06 GMT
> .
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> number I've heard is 3 or 4 pct - about 1/10th what private sector insurance
> eats up.

 The three or four percent is what the Centers for Medicare/Medicaid
Services (the old Health Care Finance Administration) pays for its
overhead. But not even remotely the administrative costs of MCare MCaid.
    Medicare, for example, has the CMS (don't know where the second M
went, probably a cost cutting measure). They do some research, publish
the regs, set overall policy and do the bidding for fiscal intermediary.
This is the 3% often cited.
     However, the way MCare is set-up, the fiscal intermediaries for a
given area do the actual heavy lifting. They do the claims, negotiate
with the providers, decide who and what is paid (in line with
regulations from CMS), write the checks, etc. The real administrative
tasks. When you include what the fiscal intermediaries are paid (they
are often the area's Blue Cross provider, but another biggy in the field
is Ross Perot's EDS. Add this  back in as administrative overhead and
the differences just about go away.

> You're saying that's way off - what are your sources?

15 years of CMS (or HCFA) budgets and some personal communications with
the budget people at CMS. It is REAL hard to tease these out, but they
are available if you look deep enough.
TMOliver - 25 Feb 2007 02:29 GMT
>>> The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost.
>>> They are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> You're saying that's way off - what are your sources?

I'd like to know also, since I'm one of the trustees of a modest non-profit
health insurance "pool" (10,000+ families).  I draw no "director's fee" or
other compensation, only modest reimbursement for travel to meetings 4-6
times a year.  The group obviously makes no profits, placing any left overs
into reserves, and contracts for billing, collection and benefit payments on
a competitive basis.  Because of the average age of the group's members, the
premiums are actually as high, sometimes higher than most "for profit"
plans, and only a few percentage points lower than some private plans quote
for groups with ages the same as ours.

If insurance companies are doing so well, it certainly doesn't show in the
market for their securities or looking at their premiums and benefit payouts
(which are a matter of public record in almost every case).  I'm sure some
senior management get lavish perks, but that's only pennies in the grand
scheme of a big company's balance sheet.

As usual, the antic antero remains as full of sh.t as a Christmas turkey,
knowing little if anything of the subject he addresses (and he's also more
than a bit confused about Medicaid and Medicare (and Medicare's relationship
with piggy-backed private insurance).

TMO
D. Spencer Hines - 25 Feb 2007 03:35 GMT
Yes, he's ignorant and confused about every topic he writes about.

DSH

> "J Antero" <ae@re.com> wrote in message

> news:KKZDh.6046$tD2.4152@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> As usual, the antic antero remains as full of sh.t as a Christmas turkey,
> knowing little if anything of the subject he addresses (and he's also more
> than a bit confused about Medicaid and Medicare (and Medicare's
> relationship with piggy-backed private insurance).
>
> TMO
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 16:35 GMT
> Yes, he's ignorant and confused about every topic he writes about.

Really?

And yet I'm regularly able to show you up as an incompetent propaganda
addict, who knows nothing of military affairs.
Kurt Ullman - 25 Feb 2007 14:02 GMT
> If insurance companies are doing so well, it certainly doesn't show in the
> market for their securities or looking at their premiums and benefit payouts
> (which are a matter of public record in almost every case).  I'm sure some
> senior management get lavish perks, but that's only pennies in the grand
> scheme of a big company's balance sheet.
   Especially since the largest percentage of this is not cash, but
rather from stock options and grants that really don't come from policy
holders, but rather from the shareholders (and don't even get me started
on how that came about).
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 16:29 GMT
From: "TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX>
Subject: Re: The Empty Pantsuit?
Date: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:29 PM

>> In article <3Z-dnUXfn_6uOkLYnZ2dnUVZ_v-tnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> dapra <dapra1@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> You're saying that's way off - what are your sources?

I'd like to know also, since I'm one of the trustees of a modest non-profit
health insurance "pool" (10,000+ families).  I draw no "director's fee" or
other compensation, only modest reimbursement for travel to meetings 4-6
times a year.  The group obviously makes no profits, placing any left overs
into reserves, and contracts for billing, collection and benefit payments on
a competitive basis.  Because of the average age of the group's members, the
premiums are actually as high, sometimes higher than most "for profit"
plans,
<

You make a stupid point.  Any health insurance plan will have higher costs
for older versus younger plan enrollees, irrespective of being private,
public, or non-profit.

and only a few percentage points lower than some private plans quote
for groups with ages the same as ours.
<

An indication that it's incompetently administered.

A couple weeks ago you were trying to tell us you were an expert on food
borne illness in the US.

I easily showed that you were full of sh.t, and you went back underground,
where you belong.

Now you surface on this topic.

If insurance companies are doing so well, it certainly doesn't show in the
market for their securities or looking at their premiums and benefit payouts
(which are a matter of public record in almost every case).  I'm sure some
senior management get lavish perks, but that's only pennies in the grand
scheme of a big company's balance sheet.
<

Moron, you have confused the high overhead that I mentioned that is
associated with private medical insurance, with high profits.

That's something no competent person would do.

That's something no person actualy informed about the US medical insurance
system would do.

For one thing, a great deal of administrative *cost* (you idiot) is added to
the private system with shifting responisibility for paying for treatments,
etc.

Ask any MD or hospital adminstrator about the nighmare of paperwork
associated with US medical care.

By the way moron, in this "private plan" of medical insurance you supposedly
help administer, do you know enough to include the hospital and drug
"discounts" that real insurance plans negotiate?

These can range from 20 to 50 pct, or more. That is, a person receiving
treatment without insurance, will usually be charged much more for a given
treatment / drug than a person with medical insurance.

You DID know that, didn't you?

What's the name of this plan you supposedly help administer? It has to be a
tax entity, and have public information available.  Tell us so we can do a
little checking, since you raised it as a point of supposed credbility.

As usual, the antic antero remains as full of sh.t as a Christmas turkey,
knowing little if anything of the subject he addresses (and he's also more
than a bit confused about Medicaid and Medicare (and Medicare's relationship
with piggy-backed private insurance).
<

No sh.t for brains, like with the food borne illness discussion, it is you
who is provably full of sh.t.

Readers can review the following articles dealing with research into the
costs (and costs shifting) of the US medical insurance system and make up
their own minds about this twit's credibilty.

I suspect this "oliver" is a Hines sock puppet.

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1623
Jan. 14, 2004

Study Shows National Health Insurance Could Save $286 Billion on Health Care
Paperwork:

Authors Say Medicare Drug Bill Will Increase Bureaucratic Costs, Reward
Insurers and the AARP

A study by researchers at Harvard Medical School and Public Citizen to be
published in Friday’s International Journal of Health Services finds that
health care bureaucracy last year cost the United States $399.4 billion. The
study estimates that national health insurance (NHI) could save at least
$286 billion annually on paperwork, enough to cover all of the uninsured and
to provide full prescription drug coverage for everyone in the United
States.

The study was based on the most comprehensive analysis to date of health
administration spending, including data on the administrative costs of
health insurers, employers’ health benefit programs, hospitals, nursing
homes, home care agencies, physicians and other practitioners in the United
States and Canada. The authors found that bureaucracy accounts for at least
31 percent of total U.S. health spending compared to 16.7 percent in Canada.
They also found that administration has grown far faster in the United
States than in Canada.

http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/resources/grantsreport.jsp?filename=036617.htm&ia
id=132


Administrative costs for health care in the United States significantly
exceeded those in Canada in 1999. Researchers at the Cambridge Medical Care
Foundation found that administrative costs per capita were $1,059 in the
U.S. and $307 in Canada; these costs accounted for 31 percent of health care
spending in the U.S. versus 16.7 percent in Canada. The Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation provided $139,381 to support this study from July 2000 to January
2003.
TMOliver - 25 Feb 2007 21:21 GMT
Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled
untruth....

Gee, a.shole, you'll have to explain why government health care could reduce
the cost of bureaucratic paper shuffling by almost 2/3.  Those of us who
deal with the federal government have generally observed the opposite to be
true, as paperwork swells with the expansion of almost ever federally
adminsistered service.  Medicare itself is veritablee legend when it comes
to expanding the burden of paperwork.

And, you contentious but dimwitted blivit, the plan for which I'm a trustee,
HBP, AKA "Housing Benefit Plan" participates in a variety of contracted
arrangements for discounted medical services and prescriptions (in 13
states).  Our premiums are high, because our groups average age is a bit
more than 50, not because of admin costs.

Your blatant ignorance concerning health care (other than the ability to cut
and paste the slogans fed you like Pablum from some of your "sources",
veritable Wikipedias of misinformation) is so glaringly obvious as to be
laughable.  Have you had an independent thought since your mom forced
weaning upon you, leaving you free for a life of self-absorbed searching for
navel lint?

TMO
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 23:12 GMT
> Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled
> untruth....
>
> Gee, a.shole, you'll have to explain why government health care could
> reduce the cost of bureaucratic paper shuffling by almost 2/3.

Well, a.shole punk, it was already described in the articles I referenced,
a.shole.

Another indication of your incompetence, just like in the food borne illness
discussion, a.shole.

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1623
Jan. 14, 2004

Study Shows National Health Insurance Could Save $286 Billion on Health Care
Paperwork:

Authors Say Medicare Drug Bill Will Increase Bureaucratic Costs, Reward
Insurers and the AARP

A study by researchers at Harvard Medical School and Public Citizen to be
published in Friday’s International Journal of Health Services finds that
health care bureaucracy last year cost the United States $399.4 billion. The
study estimates that national health insurance (NHI) could save at least
$286 billion annually on paperwork, enough to cover all of the uninsured and
to provide full prescription drug coverage for everyone in the United
States.

The study was based on the most comprehensive analysis to date of health
administration spending, including data on the administrative costs of
health insurers, employers’ health benefit programs, hospitals, nursing
homes, home care agencies, physicians and other practitioners in the United
States and Canada. The authors found that bureaucracy accounts for at least
31 percent of total U.S. health spending compared to 16.7 percent in Canada.
They also found that administration has grown far faster in the United
States than in Canada.

http://www.rwjf.org/portfolios/resources/grantsreport.jsp?filename=036617.htm&ia
id=132


Administrative costs for health care in the United States significantly
exceeded those in Canada in 1999. Researchers at the Cambridge Medical Care
Foundation found that administrative costs per capita were $1,059 in the
U.S. and $307 in Canada; these costs accounted for 31 percent of health care
spending in the U.S. versus 16.7 percent in Canada. The Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation provided $139,381 to support this study from July 2000 to January
2003.

To a large extent, you stupid punk, it's attributed to something called
efficiency, largely arising from lack of cost shifting, a.shole.

>Those of us who deal with the federal government have generally observed
>the opposite to be true, as paperwork swells with the expansion of almost
>ever federally adminsistered service.  Medicare itself is veritablee legend
>when it comes to expanding the burden of paperwork.

This moron thinks private insurance doesn't entail paperwork.

What an a.shole.

> And, you contentious but dimwitted blivit,

Take you insults and shove them up your punk a.s.

You haven't answered any of the points raised because you can't, you phony
punk.

> the plan for which I'm a trustee, HBP, AKA "Housing Benefit Plan"

Sounds phony - nothing apparent comes up on a Google search.

participates in a variety of contracted
> arrangements for discounted medical services and prescriptions (in 13
> states).  Our premiums are high, because our groups average age is a bit
> more than 50, not because of admin costs.

Assuming this isn't a totaly false organization you claim, with a strange
name for a health plan -  you get paid for nothing.

It's already been pointed out that large credible studies have been done
that analyze efficiencies in which the US private system comes out poorly
with excessive expense.

You can do nothing but pretend its propaganda and blabber about governement
paperwork, ignoring the paperwork and ineffeiciencies also present in the
private system.

Does private sector always perform better than government?  All anyone has
to do is think about Haliburton in Iraq doing things the military used to do
for itself to answer that one.

You're a third rate hack who tries to bully people and make claims of false
authority.  In short you're a punk.

> Your blatant ignorance concerning health care (other than the ability to
> cut and paste the slogans fed you like Pablum from some of your "sources",

Peer reviewed economic studies out of major universities have a lot more
credibility than blathering punk like you.

> veritable Wikipedias of misinformation) is so glaringly obvious as to be
> laughable.  Have you had an independent thought since your mom forced
> weaning upon you, leaving you free for a life of self-absorbed searching
> for navel lint?

You are a phony and a punk and you can take your insults and shove them up
your as, punk.

> TMO
Josiah Jenkins - 26 Feb 2007 02:26 GMT
Whilst perusing Usenet on Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:12:28 GMT, I read these
words from "J Antero" <ae@re.com> :
<snip>

>Well, a.shole punk, it was already described in the articles I referenced,
>a.shole.
>
>Another indication of your incompetence, just like in the food borne illness
>discussion, a.shole.

I do love how these colonial chappies use terms of endearment
with each other whilst engaging in discussion.

So much so that I do believe that I will <PLONK> him,
the a.shole !

-- jjj
J Antero - 26 Feb 2007 02:53 GMT
> Whilst perusing Usenet on Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:12:28 GMT, I read these
> words from "J Antero" <ae@re.com> :
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> So much so that I do believe that I will <PLONK> him,
> the a.shole !

Yes, you are.
D. Spencer Hines - 26 Feb 2007 03:17 GMT
Advantage Oliver...

Then Game, Set & Match To Oliver.

DSH
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 23:37 GMT
> Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled
> untruth....
>
> Gee, a.shole, you'll h

Here shitface- something else for you to learn from the New England Journal
of Medicine.

http://www.pnhp.org/publications/a_national_health_program_for_the_united_states.php

A National Health Program for the United States: A Physicians' Proposal
Abstract:
Our health care system is failing. Tens of millions of people are uninsured,
costs are skyrocketing, and the bureaucracy is expanding. Patchwork reforms
succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time for basic
change in American medicine. We propose a national health program that would
(1) fully cover everyone under a single, comprehensive public insurance
program; (2) pay hospitals and nursing homes a total (global) annual amount
to cover all operating expenses; (3) fund capital costs through separate
appropriations; (4) pay for physiciansÕ services and ambulatory services in
any of three ways: through fee-for-service payments with a simplified fee
schedule and mandatory acceptance of the national health program payment as
the total payment for a service or procedure (assignment), through global
budgets for hospitals and clinics employing salaried physicians, or on a per
capital basis (capitation); (5) be funded, at least initially, from the same
sources as at present, but with payments disbursed from a single pool; and
(6) contain costs through savings on billing and bureaucracy, improved
health planning, and the ability of the national health program, as the
single payer for services to establish overall spending limits. Through this
proposal, we hope to provide a pragmatic framework for public debate of
fundamental health-policy reform. (N Engl J Med 1989; 320: 102-8.)

Full Text:

OUR health care system is failing. It denies access to many in need and is
expensive, inefficient, and increasingly bureaucratic. The pressures of cost
control, competition, and profit threaten the traditional tenets of medical
practice. For patients, the misfortune of illness is often amplified by the
fear of financial ruin. For physicians, the gratifications of healing often
give way to anger and alienation. Patchwork reforms succeed only in
exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time to change fundamentally the
trajectory of American medicine - to develop a comprehensive national health
program for the United States.

We are physicians active in the full range of medical endeavors. We are
primary care doctors and surgeons, psychiatrists and public health
specialists, pathologists and administrators. We work in hospitals, clinics,
private practices, health maintenance organizations (HMOs), universities,
corporations, and public agencies. Some of us are young, still in training;
others are greatly experienced, and some have held senior positions in
American medicine.

As physicians, we constantly confront the irrationality of the present
health care system. In private practice, we waste countless hours on billing
and bureaucracy. For uninsured patients, we avoid procedures, consultations,
and costly medications. Diagnosis-related groups (DRGs) have placed us
between administrators demanding early discharge and elderly patients with
no one to help at home - all the while glancing over our shoulders at the
peer-review organization. In HMOs we walk a tightrope between thrift and
penuriousness, too often under the pressure of surveillance by bureaucrats
more concerned with the bottom line than with other measures of achievement.
In public health work we are frustrated in the face of plenty; the world's
richest health care system is unable to ensure such basic services as
prenatal care and immunizations.

Despite our disparate perspectives, we are united by dismay at the current
state of medicine and by the conviction that an alternative must be
developed. We hope to spark debate, to transform disaffection with what
exists into a vision of what might be. To this end, we submit for public
review, comment, and revision a working plan for a rational and humane
health care system - a national health program.

We envisage a program that would be federally mandated and ultimately funded
by the federal government but administered largely at the state and local
level. The proposed system would eliminate financial barriers to care;
minimize economic incentives for both excessive and insufficient care,
discourage administrative interference and expense, improve the distribution
of health facilities, and control costs by curtailing bureaucracy and
fostering health planning. Our plan borrows many features from the Canadian
national health program and adapts them to the unique circumstances of the
United States. We suggest that, as in Canada's provinces, the national
health program be tested initially in statewide demonstration projects.
Thus, our proposal addresses both the structure of the national health
program and the transition process necessary to implement the program in a
single state. In each section below, we present a key feature of the
proposal, followed by the rationale for our approach. Areas such as
long-term care; public, occupational, environmental, and mental health; and
medical education need much more development and will be addressed in detail
in future proposals.

COVERAGE

Everyone would be included in a single public plan covering all medically
necessary services, including acute, rehabilitative, long-term, and home
care; mental health services; dental services; occupational health care;
prescription drugs and medical supplies; and preventive and public health
measures. Boards of experts and community representatives would determine
which services were unnecessary or ineffective, and these would be excluded
from coverage. As in Canada, alternative insurance coverage for services
included under the national health program would be eliminated, as would
patient copayments and deductibles.

Universal coverage would solve the gravest problem in health care by
eliminating financial barriers to care. A single comprehensive program is
necessary both to ensure equal access to care and to minimize the complexity
and expense of billing and administration. The public administration of
insurance funds would save tens of billions of dollars each year. The more
than 1500 private health insurers in the United States now consume about 8
percent of revenues for overhead, whereas both the Medicare program and the
Canadian national health program have overhead costs of only 2 to 3 percent.
The complexity of our current insurance system, with its multiplicity of
payers, forces U .S. hospitals to spend more than twice as much as Canadian
hospitals on billing and administration and requires U .S. physicians to
spend about 10 percent of their gross incomes on excess billing costs.1
Eliminating insurance programs that duplicated the national health program
coverage, though politically thorny, would clearly be within the prerogative
of the Congress.2 Failure to do so would require the continuation of the
costly bureaucracy necessary to administer and deal with such programs.

Copayments and deductibles endanger the health of poor people who are sick,3
decrease the use of vital inpatient medical services as much as they
discourage the use of unnecessary ones,4 discourage preventive care,5 and
are unwieldy and expensive to administer. Canada has few such charges, yet
health costs are lower than in 1he United States and have risen slowly.6,7
In the United States, in contrast, increasing copayments and deductibles
have failed to slow the escalation of costs.

Instead of the confused and often unjust dictates of insurance companies, a
greatly expanded program of technology assessment and cost-effectiveness
evaluation would guide decisions about covered services, as well as about
the allocation of funds for capital spending, drug formularies, and other
issues.

PAYMENT FOR HOSPITAL SERVICES

Each hospital would receive an annual lump-sum payment to cover all
operating expenses - a "global" budget. The amount of this payment would be
negotiated with the state national health program payment board and would be
based on past expenditures, previous financial and clinical performance,
projected changes in levels of services, wages and other costs, and proposed
new and innovative programs. Hospitals would not bill for services covered
by the national health program. No part of the operating budget could be
used for hospital expansion, profit, marketing, or major capital purchases
or leases. These expenditures would also come from the national health
program fund, but monies for them would be appropriated separately.

Global prospective budgeting would simplify hospital administration and
virtually eliminate billing, thus freeing up substantial resources for
increased clinical care. Before the nationwide implementation of the
national health program, hospitals in the states with demonstration programs
could bill out-of-state patients on a simple per diem basis. Prohibiting the
use of operating funds for capital purchases or profit would eliminate the
main financial incentive for both excessive intervention (under
fee-for-service payment) and skimping on care (under DRG-type
prospective-payment systems), since neither inflating revenues nor limiting
care could result in gain for the institution. The separate appropriation of
funds explicitly designated for capital expenditures would facilitate
rational health planning. In Canada, this method of hospital payment has
been successful in containing costs, minimizing bureaucracy, improving the
distribution of health resources, and maintaining the quality of care.6-9 It
shifts the focus of hospital administration away from the bottom line and
toward the provision of optimal clinical services.

PAYMENT FOR PHYSICIANS' SERVICES, AMBULATORY CARE, AND MEDICAL HOME CARE

To minimize the disruption of existing patterns of care, the national health
program would include three payment options for physicians and other
practitioners: fee-for-service payment, salaried positions in institutions
receiving global budgets, and salaried positions within group practices or
HMOs receiving per capita (capitation) payments.
J Antero - 25 Feb 2007 23:38 GMT
> Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled
> untruth....

Here's another, punk.

Administrative Waste Consumes 31 Percent of Health Spending

PNHP Co-founders Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein published
this definitive study of the administrative costs of the U.S. health system
in the August 21, 2003 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine. After
analyzing the costs of insurers, employers, doctors, hospitals, nursing
homes and home-care agencies in both the U.S. and Canada, they found that
administration consumes 31.0 percent of U.S. health spending, double the
proportion of Canada (16.7 percent). Average overhead among private U.S.
insurers was 11.7 percent, compared with 1.3 percent for Canada’s
single-payer system and 3.6 percent for Medicare. Streamlined to Canadian
levels, enough administrative waste could be saved to provide compressive
health insurance to all Americans.

Read “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada” (pdf)
dapra - 26 Feb 2007 17:41 GMT
>>Antero wailed, regurgitating the usual line of propaganda and veiled
>>untruth....
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Read “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada” (pdf)

It's a good attempt to educate right wingers.  But they don't read the
New England Journal of Medicine or even quotes from it. Right wingers
only regurgitate talking point without providing any data. If they do,
they just pull them out of their a.ses, and they are unable to give any
link to verify it.

An example, "...I mean for every dollar appropiated [by the US
government] only 25 cents actually makes it to the beneficiary." by Kurt
Ullman. No proof given.

The tactic is, throw out some lies, and most or at least some of their
brain dead cohorts will believe them. The Bush regime is practicing this
for 6 year. It did work for 4.

I appreciate your data.
TMOliver - 26 Feb 2007 18:09 GMT
Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious....

Medicare's "low" cost of adminsistration is due to the fact that every
claiming provider of services must complete all the documentation (and
accurately), leaving the Medicare contractee little to do but write the
check.

If you added the first line providers' admin costs, the Medicare papertrail,
even longer than the clumsy third party system, makes the overall cost of
servicehigh.

Apples and oranges (but then between dapra and antero, any comparison
requiring the capacity to distinguish issues greater than currants and
raisins would transcend intellectual challenge and run into mutual inability
to reason).
dapra - 26 Feb 2007 18:50 GMT
> Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious....

Some nethics; If one replies to a post, he should not delete the
original one. But you have a long way to learn nethics or ethics.

> Medicare's "low" cost of adminsistration is due to the fact that every
> claiming provider of services must complete all the documentation (and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> even longer than the clumsy third party system, makes the overall cost of
> servicehigh.

You make a good point. Can you substantiate it?

> Apples and oranges (but then between dapra and antero, any comparison
> requiring the capacity to distinguish issues greater than currants and
> raisins would transcend intellectual challenge and run into mutual inability
> to reason).

Well, just give some data, not BS.
J Antero - 26 Feb 2007 22:57 GMT
> Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious....
>
> Medicare's "low" cost of adminsistration is due to the fact that every
> claiming provider of services must complete all the documentation (and
> accurately), leaving the Medicare contractee little to do but write the
> check.

This abusive little liar wants to pretend that the large scale health
economics studies already cited in this thread (including one by Harvard
Medical
School), ignored obvious cost factors in their analysis, and then they
published in leading journals for all the world to see. I don't think so.

He is not a reliable or honest source - or maybe the "blivit" (to borrow a
term he likes to apply to other people) doesn't know any better..

Twice in this thread he has said that he is trustee of an insurance provider
and says:

"Our premiums are high, because our groups average age is a bit more than
50, not because of admin costs."

This a inapt thing to say for anyone to say,  who actually knows about
health
insurance.

Premiums in private sector insurance ALWAYS increase with the age of the
insured. They increase a lot because older people use more medical care and
drugs. Is this news to the blivit?

$400 a month might a low premium for a 60 yr old, and a very high premium
for a 20 yr old.

Does the blivit think the plan is charging everyone the same (high) premium,
irregardless of age, and the premiums are high because the younger members
are carrying the costs of the older?

That would be odd if it's the case. Given free choice, the younger people
would simply drop the coverage and go to plans offering cheaper rates based
on their lower age.

In any case, the blivit has done about the same on this issue as he did on a
previous one on food borne illness.

Here's some info that can provide an overview of how the US healthcare
system compares with those of other rich nations.

It's a "macroeconomic" report on health care costs and results between the
US and some other developed nations.

Bottom line - it shows we spend a lot more, and get somewhat lower results.

It's from a highly credible international organization, the OECD
(Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development ).

[OECD groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to democratic
government and the market economy. With active relationships with some 70
other countries and economies, NGOs and civil society, it has a global
reach. Best known for its publications and its statistics, its work covers
economic and social issues from macroeconomics, to trade, education,
development and science and innovation.]

OECD Health Data 2005

How Does the United States Compare
http://www.oecd.org/searchResult/0,2665,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html

Health spending and financing

Total health spending accounted for 15% of GDP in the United States in 2003,
the highest share in the OECD and more than six percentage points higher
than the average of 8.6% in
OECD countries. By comparison, Switzerland and Germany allocated 11 and
11.5% of their GDP to
health, respectively, and Canada and France about 10%.

[Compared to other rich countries, the US spends a lot more on health, but
as is shown further on, is getting lower results. ]

The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of
total health spending per
capita, with spending of 5,635 USD (adjusted for purchasing power parity),
more than twice the OECD
average of 2,307 USD in 2003. Switzerland and Norway come just after with
spending of about 3,800
USD per capita. Differences in health spending across countries may reflect
differences in price, volume
and quality of medical goods and services consumed.

Between 1998 and 2003, health spending per capita in the United States
increased in real terms by 4.6%
per year on average, a growth rate comparable to the OECD average of 4.5%
per year.
Over the past decade, the share of health expenditure spent on
pharmaceuticals in the United States
increased from 8.6% of total health spending in 1993 to 12.9% in 2003. This
remained below the OECD
average of 17.7%. In 2003, the United States was the top spender on
pharmaceuticals (with 728 USD per
capita, adjusted for purchasing power parity), followed by France, Canada
and Italy.

The public sector is the main source of health funding in all OECD
countries, except for the United
States, Mexico and Korea. In the United States, only 44% of health spending
is funded by government
revenues, well below the average of 72% in OECD countries. The public share
of total health spending
remains the lowest of OECD countries, compared for instance with the Nordic
countries (Denmark,
Norway and Sweden) where it reaches more than 80% of total health spending.

In the United States, private insurance accounts for 37% of total health
spending, by far the largest share
among OECD countries. Beside the United States, Canada, France and the
Netherlands also have a
relatively large share of funding coming from private insurance (more than
10%).

Resources in the health sector (human, physical)

Despite the relatively high level of health expenditure in the United
States, there are fewer physicians per
capita than in most other OECD countries. In 2002, the United States had 2.3
practising physicians per 1
000 population, below the OECD average of 2.9.
There were 7.9 nurses per 1 000 population in the United States in 2002,
which is slightly lower than the
average of 8.2 across OECD countries.

The number of acute care hospital beds in the United States in 2003 was 2.8
per 1 000 population, also
lower than the OECD average of 4.1 beds per 1 000 population. As in most
OECD countries, the number
of hospital beds per capita has fallen over the past twenty years, from 4.4
beds per 1 000 population in
1980 to 2.8 in 2003. This decline has coincided with a reduction in average
length of stays in hospitals and
an increase in day-surgery patients.

Health status and risk factors

Most OECD countries have enjoyed large gains in life expectancy over the
past 40 years. In the United
States, life expectancy at birth increased by 7.3 years between 1960 and
2002, which is less than the
increase of 14 years in life expectancy in Japan, or of 8.4 years in Canada.
In 2002/3, life expectancy in
the United States stood at 77.2 years, below the OECD average of 77.8 years.
Japan, Iceland, Spain,
Switzerland and Australia were among the top 5 countries registering the
highest life expectancy among
OECD countries.

Infant mortality rates in the United States have fallen greatly over the
past few decades, but not as much
as in most other OECD countries. It stood at 7 deaths per 1 000 live births
in 2002, above the OECD
average of 6.1.1 Among OECD countries, infant mortality is the lowest in
Japan and in the Nordic
countries (Iceland, Sweden, Finland and Norway), all below 3.5 deaths per 1
000 live births.

The proportion of daily smokers among the adult population has shown a
marked decline over recent
decades across most OECD countries. Much of this decline can be attributed
to policies aimed at reducing
tobacco consumption through public awareness campaigns, advertising bans and
increased taxation. In the
United States, the proportion of smokers among adults has fallen from 33.5%
in 1980 to 17.5% in 2003,
the lowest rate among OECD countries along with Canada and Sweden.

At the same time, obesity rates have increased in recent decades in all OECD
countries for which trend
data is available. There remain however notable differences in obesity rates
across countries. In the United
States, the obesity rate among adults (30.6% in 2002) is the highest in OECD
countries, followed by
Mexico (24.2% in 2000) and the United Kingdom (23% in 2003).2 Obesity rates
in Continental European
countries are lower, but are also rising. The time lag between the onset of
obesity and increases in related
chronic diseases (such as diabetes and asthma) suggest that the rise in
obesity that has occurred in the
United States and other OECD countries, will have substantial implications
for future incidence of health
problems and related spending.

More information on OECD Health Data 2005 is available at
www.oecd.org/health/healthdata.

For more information on OECD's work on the United States, please visit
www.oecd.org/us.
1 Some of the international variation in infant mortality rates is due to
variations in registering practices of premature
infants (whether they are reported as live births or not). In the United
States, Canada and the Nordic
countries, very premature babies (with relatively low odds of survival) are
registered as live births, which
increases mortality rates compared with other countries that do not register
them as live births.
2 It should be noted however that the data for the United States, the United
Kingdom and Australia are more accurate
than those from other countries since they are based on actual measures of
people’s height and weight,
while estimates for other countries are based on self-reported data, which
generally under-estimate the real
prevalence of obesity.
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 02:10 GMT
> The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of
> total health spending per
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> differences in price, volume
> and quality of medical goods and services consumed.
  They may also reflect the fact that the other governments say what
they are going to pay and artifically lower prices. They also may
because they undertreat as shown by, among others, your beloved New
England Journal..
"esults The Canadian patients typically stayed in the hospital one day
longer (P = 0.009) than the U.S. patients but had a much lower rate of
cardiac catheterization (25 percent vs. 72 percent, P<0.001), coronary
angioplasty (11 percent vs. 29 percent, P<0.001), and coronary bypass
surgery (3 percent vs. 14 percent, P<0.001). At one year 24 percent of
the Canadian and 53 percent of the U.S. patients had undergone
angioplasty or bypass surgery at least once (P<0.001). The Canadians had
more visits to physicians during the follow-up year (P<0.001), but fewer
visits to specialists (P<0.001). At 30 days, functional status was
equivalent in the patients from the two countries. However, after one
year the U.S. patients had substantially more improvement than the
Canadian patients (P<0.001). The prevalence of chest pain and dyspnea at
one year was higher among the Canadian patients (34 percent vs. 21
percent and 45 percent vs. 29 percent, respectively; P<0.001).
Conclusions The Canadian patients had more cardiac symptoms and worse
functional status one year after acute myocardial infarction than the
U.S. patients. The Canadian patients also underwent fewer invasive
cardiac procedures and had fewer visits to specialist physicians. These
results suggest, but do not prove, that the more aggressive pattern of
care in the United States may have been responsible for the better
quality of life.

Volume 331:1130-1135

October 27, 1994

Number 17

Use of Medical Resources and Quality of Life after Acute Myocardial
Infarction in Canada and the United States
Daniel B. Mark, C. David Naylor, Mark A. Hlatky, Robert M. Califf, Eric
J. Topol, Christopher B. Granger, J. David Knight, Charlotte L. Nelson,
Kerry L. Lee, Nancy E. Clapp-Channing, Wanda Sutherland, Louise Pilote,
and Paul W. Armstrong.

More recently:

Long-term mortality of patients with acute myocardial infarction in the
United States and Canada: comparison of patients enrolled in Global
Utilization of Streptokinase and t-PA for Occluded Coronary Arteries
(GUSTO)-I.
  €  Kaul P, Armstrong PW, Chang WC, Naylor CD, Granger CB, Lee KL,
Peterson ED, Califf RM, Topol EJ, Mark DB.
"CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest, for the first time, that the more
conservative pattern of care with regard to early revascularization in
Canada for ST-segment elevation acute myocardial infarction may have a
detrimental effect on long-term survival. Our results have important
policy implications for cardiac care in countries and healthcare systems
wherein use of invasive procedures is similarly conservative."

Yet Another:
comparison of U.S. and Canadian cardiac catheterization practices in
detecting severe coronary artery disease after myocardial infarction:
efficiency, yield and long-term implications.
  €  Batchelor WB, Peterson ED, Mark DB, Knight JD, Granger CB,
Armstrong PW, Califf RM.
CONCLUSIONS: Canada's more restrictive post-MI cardiac catheterization
strategy is no more efficient in identifying severe CAD than the
aggressive U.S. strategy, and may fail to identify a substantial number
of post-MI patients with high risk coronary anatomy. The long-term
impact of these differences in practice patterns requires further
evaluation.

 The Canadian Supreme Court would also agree In Canada a patient had no
choice but to go along with the Canadian system. A patient could not
seek private treatment in Canada.
Canada's Supreme Court struck that requirement down with force. Let me
provide you with a few quotes from the decision. "Many patients on
non-urgent waiting lists are in pain and cannot fully enjoy any real
quality of life."
In another quote, the court said: "Access to a waiting list is not
access to health care."

   This is further shown by looking at the various diseases as reported
by WHO and others. Breast cancer is fatal to 25% of American victims
while it kills 46% of those it strikes in Canada and New Zealand.
Prostate cancer fatal to 19% of Americans while the figures in Canada is
25% and 57% in the UK.

> Most OECD countries have enjoyed large gains in life expectancy over the
> past 40 years. In the United
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> highest life expectancy among
> OECD countries.

   This is largely a function of societal causes than it is health care
system.  For example, every young gang banger that gets killed in a
drive by "costs" more in this equation than a 60 year old dude who is
kept alive another ten years. In fact, I would submit that the health
devlivery system may actually be making it look better than otherwise.
For example, a recent study attributed part of the decline in the murder
rate to improved trauma care over the last 20-30 years. Many who would
have died and become murder victims are now living and merely victims of
assault.
    For example see: Medical advances may explain homicide decline
Improvements at all stages of postassault care have improved outcomes,
but physicians say achievements may be threatened by trauma center and
emergency department closures.
By Victoria Stagg Elliott, AMNews staff. Sept. 2, 2002.
 Include higher drug use and its impact on life expectancy, etc, etc,
etc.  Much of the difference is involved with things that are not the
purview of the health care system.

> Infant mortality rates in the United States have fallen greatly over the
> past few decades, but not as much
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> countries (Iceland, Sweden, Finland and Norway), all below 3.5 deaths per 1
> 000 live births.

 Again societal issues impact on this. Higher levels of teenage
pregnancies, pregnancies of drug addicted moms, all have been linked to
low birth weight babies at much higher levels than seen elsewhere. Also
higher levels of in vitro fertilization especially in older women, lead
to more multiple births and those more preterm and LBW babies.  These
preterm babies (largely driven by societal things outside of the control
of the medical profession..although they are trying) contributed to the
rise in the infant mortality figures according to the CCD (according to
the study published in Pediatrics.)

> The proportion of daily smokers among the adult population has shown a
> marked decline over recent
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in 1980 to 17.5% in 2003,
> the lowest rate among OECD countries along with Canada and Sweden.

  Again societal since the medical profession health care industry has
little control over public awareness campaigns and especially
advertising bans and increased taxation. (Although the studies DO show
American docs aren't as aggressive as they could be in getting patients
to quit.)

> At the same time, obesity rates have increased in recent decades in all OECD
> countries for which trend
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> for future incidence of health
> problems and related spending.

  Again outside the direct control of the health care system.

> 1 Some of the international variation in infant mortality rates is due to
> variations in registering practices of premature
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> increases mortality rates compared with other countries that do not register
> them as live births.
      Yet another indication of above.
J Antero - 27 Feb 2007 22:52 GMT
>> The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms
>> of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> differences in price, volume
>> and quality of medical goods and services consumed.

>   They may also reflect the fact that the other governments say what
> they are going to pay and artifically lower prices. They also may
> because they undertreat as shown by, among others, your beloved New
> England Journal..

You missed the point.  The results of the OECD study showed the other rich
nations paid much less in healthcare and got somewhat better results.

If they gave poorer care they would not get better results.

The New England Jl of Medicine is one of the most prestigious and credible
publications on medicine in the world. Most people are aware of that.

The New England Jl of Medicine physicians article (cited in another post)
was not "research" as you called it - it was an article describing problems
US physicians encounter with the health insurance  paperwork system in the
US,

Much (but not all) of the problem arises from a system of multiple payers
trying to shift responsibilty for payment onto other entities.

It was on the physicians organization's web page, currently.

It's not old "research" - it's an article published in 1989 which they say
still pertains to the current situation.

<snip>
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 23:17 GMT
> You missed the point.  The results of the OECD study showed the other rich
> nations paid much less in healthcare and got somewhat better results.
>
>  If they gave poorer care they would not get better results.
  You missed the point in that there are indications from other places
(including other articles in the NEJM)that indicate otherwise.

> The New England Jl of Medicine physicians article (cited in another post)
> was not "research" as you called it - it was an article describing problems
> US physicians encounter with the health insurance  paperwork system in the
> US,
      Nonsense the first one was on actual results and outcomes and was
published in your gold standard of the NEJM. One was long term outcomes
of the GUSTO study, long term multi-center trial and the third was
another trial, the fourth was a discussion of the Canadian system by the
country's own Supreme Court that found lousy outcomes. Then was a study
of different outcomes by the World Health Organization.  WIth the
exception of the Canada Supreme's decision, all were well controlled
studies, peer-reviewed and published in well-respected journals. All
showed at least areas where the outcomes they were measuring were better
in the US.

> Much (but not all) of the problem arises from a system of multiple payers
> trying to shift responsibilty for payment onto other entities.
Yo do know that for every $1 an evil insurance company pays for a
procedure, MCare pays only about 65cents and MCaid even less. If anybody
is shifting responsibility it is more likely the federal programs. They
are the ones with monopsonistic power.
    Another problem are the costs involved with MCare's billing and
paperwork requirements.
J Antero - 28 Feb 2007 01:06 GMT
>> You missed the point.  The results of the OECD study showed the other
>> rich
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>       Nonsense the first one was on actual results and outcomes and was
> published in your gold standard of the NEJM.

Nonsense is right. I think you're confused.

The only NEJM two articles I mentioned and clipped from were:

1] from a current website, an article published in  the New England Journal
of Medicine, in 1989.

http://www.pnhp.org/publications/a_national_health_program_for_the_united_states.php

A National Health Program for the United States: A Physicians' Proposal
Abstract:
Our health care system is failing. Tens of millions of people are uninsured,
costs are skyrocketing, and the bureaucracy is expanding. Patchwork reforms
succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time for basic
change in American medicine. We propose a national health program that would
(1) fully cover everyone under a single, comprehensive public insurance
program; (2) pay hospitals and nursing homes a total (global) annual amount
to cover all operating expenses; (3) fund capital costs through separate
appropriations; (4) pay for physiciansÕ services and ambulatory services in
any of three ways: through fee-for-service payments with a simplified fee
schedule and mandatory acceptance of the national health program payment as

2] Administrative Waste Consumes 31 Percent of Health Spending

PNHP Co-founders Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein published
this definitive study of the administrative costs of the U.S. health system
in the August 21, 2003 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine. After
analyzing the costs of insurers, employers, doctors, hospitals, nursing
homes and home-care agencies in both the U.S. and Canada, they found that
administration consumes 31.0 percent of U.S. health spending, double the
proportion of Canada (16.7 percent). Average overhead among private U.S.
insurers was 11.7 percent, compared with 1.3 percent for Canada’s
single-payer system and 3.6 percent for Medicare. Streamlined to Canadian
levels, enough administrative waste could be saved to provide compressive
health insurance to all Americans.

Read “Costs of Health Administration in the U.S. and Canada” (pdf)

3] Then I mentioned the OECD study which is an international macroeconomic
study comparing US healthcare costs and outcomes.

OECD Health Data 2005

How Does the United States Compare
http://www.oecd.org/searchResult/0,2665,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html

Health spending and financing

Total health spending accounted for 15% of GDP in the United States in 2003,
the highest share in the OECD and more than six percentage points higher
than the average of 8.6% in
OECD countries. By comparison, Switzerland and Germany allocated 11 and
11.5% of their GDP to
health, respectively, and Canada and France about 10%.

[Compared to other rich countries, the US spends a lot more on health, but
as is shown further on, is getting lower results. ]

The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of
total health spending per
capita, with spending of 5,635 USD (adjusted for purchasing power parity),
more than twice the OECD
average of 2,307 USD in 2003. Switzerland and Norway come just after with
spending of about 3,800
USD per capita. Differences in health spending across countries may reflect
differences in price, volume
and quality of medical goods and services consumed.

Between 1998 and 2003, health spending per capita in the United States
increased in real terms by 4.6%
per year on average, a growth rate comparable to the OECD average of 4.5%
per year.
Over the past decade, the share of health expenditure spent on
pharmaceuticals in the United States
increased from 8.6% of total health spending in 1993 to 12.9% in 2003. This
remained below the OECD
average of 17.7%. In 2003, the United States was the top spender on
pharmaceuticals (with 728 USD per
capita, adjusted for purchasing power parity), followed by France, Canada
and Italy.

The public sector is the main source of health funding in all OECD
countries, except for the United
States, Mexico and Korea. In the United States, only 44% of health spending
is funded by government
revenues, well below the average of 72% in OECD countries. The public share
of total health spending
remains the lowest of OECD countries, compared for instance with the Nordic
countries (Denmark,
Norway and Sweden) where it reaches more than 80% of total health spending.

In the United States, private insurance accounts for 37% of total health
spending, by far the largest share
among OECD countries. Beside the United States, Canada, France and the
Netherlands also have a
relatively large share of funding coming from private insurance (more than
10%).

Above is what I have made reference to.

>one was long term outcomes
> of the GUSTO study, long term multi-center trial and the third was
> another trial, the fourth was a discussion of the Canadian system

I think you must be confused - I haven't made reference to any GUSTO study.

by the
> country's own Supreme Court that found lousy outcomes. Then was a study
> of different outcomes by the World Health Organization.  WIth the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>     Another problem are the costs involved with MCare's billing and
> paperwork requirements.
Kurt Ullman - 28 Feb 2007 12:47 GMT
> .
> >
> >       Nonsense the first one was on actual results and outcomes and was
> > published in your gold standard of the NEJM.
>
> Nonsense is right. I think you're confused.

Confused don't even begin to cover it.

> The only NEJM two articles I mentioned and clipped from were:

> Above is what I have made reference to.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think you must be confused - I haven't made reference to any GUSTO study.

  That is because *I* made reference to additional NEJM studies and
thhe GUSTO studies which showed less than optimal outcomes in Canada
when compared to the US on several cardiac and other related parameters.
Google or otherwise dig up my original posts.
TMOliver - 27 Feb 2007 16:06 GMT
Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status
apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find out
that his employer's health insurance plan charges all the participants the
same premiums for the same package of benefits (except those already over 65
and on Medicare for whom Medicare is the principal provider and the
eamployer plan a secondary supplement).

The 20 year olds pay the same as the ancient over 50s, bad actuarial policy,
but designed to comply with any number of regulatory constraints.  Employers
may offer a choice of variety of plans with different levels of benefits.

"Pools", almost all of which are non-profit entities, of necessity set their
premiums based on the actuarila experience of their membership, statistical
microcosms, not macros.  "Old" groups have higher premiums.  Profit-making
third party insurors follow exactly the same plicy, determining the premium
for an employee group based on experience and average age, a predictor of
future experience.

Either antero's on welfare or his grasp of reality is even less than
displayed to date, amplified only by the presence of an issue of JAMA, yet
unusued for TP in his outhouse.

One of the strongest reasons that Congress has always had so much trouble
designing an acceptable national health insurance plan is that (a) "old"
folks vote in great numbers and percentages and would surely turn out of
office electees who forced them to pay more than younkers for coverage.  On
the other hand, if the younkers are taxed/otherwise levied at a greater rate
than their elders, they might rush to the polls to defenestrate the pols.

Also, the wee lad is under the misconception that I'm somehow opposed to a
national health plan.  Hell, ant, you miserble dufflebutted dimwit, I'm for
national health insurance, already being on Medicare and able to participate
in TRiCare from military retirement.  Some workable national health plan,
whatever that may be, is the only way to level the playing field in which
the very poor the affluent, and young adults who risk living "uncovered"
(not much of a risk) profit most from the current system, while the lowewr
middle class are challenged to pay for care which the affluent can afford
and the poor can receive at little or no cost.

When a modestly effective level of health insurance costs the average US
family something near $1,000 a month, more than most households pay in
combined income and social security taxes, the system is not working.  Along
with the burden of administrative costs, the health "industry" has built in
levels of duplication and redundancy.

To build in a bit of smn content....(since that's where I post and read)....

As a veteran, I'll even insult fellow US vets here by writing that nowhere
is that duplication and redundancy more obvious than in the maintenance of a
cumbersome, much of it obsolete parallel system for the delivery of
services, most of which, except for treatment for mental illness and related
conditions (inc. the inevitable decline of advancing years).

As an example, I suspect that it costs Uncle Sam more to provide vets with
prescription drugs through VA pharmacies than it does for the vets to obtain
the drugs through one of the contract providers for TriCare (andf likely
more than the Health Plan of which I'm a trustee and its members to deliver
the same drugs through discount purchase arrangements and "prescriuption
coverage".
Vince - 27 Feb 2007 18:36 GMT
> Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status
>  apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The 20 year olds pay the same as the ancient over 50s, bad actuarial
> policy,

Only if signing up is voluntary.  If it is not you don't have adverse
selection or moral hazard.  You even out costs over the lifetime.

> As a veteran, I'll even insult fellow US vets here by writing that
> nowhere is that duplication and redundancy more obvious than in the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> and its members to deliver the same drugs through discount purchase
> arrangements and "prescriuption coverage".

you would be wrong
VA and DOD pay the lowest prices for pharmaceuticals

http://opencrs.cdt.org/rpts/RL33802_20070117.pdf

Vince
Ken Wood - 27 Feb 2007 18:37 GMT
> Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status
> apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find out
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> but designed to comply with any number of regulatory constraints.  Employers
> may offer a choice of variety of plans with different levels of benefits.

Not always. I was on an employer group plan some years back that
amongst the various options the premiums did vary with age of
participant.

KW

> "Pools", almost all of which are non-profit entities, of necessity set their
> premiums based on the actuarila experience of their membership, statistical
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> the same drugs through discount purchase arrangements and "prescriuption
> coverage".
Peter Skelton - 27 Feb 2007 21:38 GMT
>> Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status
>> apparently beyond his marginal capacity, but were he, he'd soon find out
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>amongst the various options the premiums did vary with age of
>participant.

Sure and you can buy level premium private insurance (the best
deal if you're under 40 and can afford the increased premiums in
the early years)

Peter Skelton
J Antero - 27 Feb 2007 22:55 GMT
> Not that antero is likely to be employed, regular work being a status
> apparently beyond his marginal capacity,

Sounds like a little projection going on there.  That would be consistent
his quality of posting.

> but were he, he'd soon find out
> that his employer's health insurance plan charges all the participants the
> same premiums for the same package of benefits (except those already over
> 65 and on Medicare for whom Medicare is the principal provider and the
> eamployer plan a secondary supplement).

Again, you resort to insult instead of honest argument and try to shift
arguments.

You like insults?  Fine. You are an incompetent TWIT who tries to use insult
and blather to cover your own weakness.

You stated that you were a trustee of a small non-profit health insurance
provider.

That's what YOU said, idiot.
NOT a corporation or government organization which *subsidizes* its
employees' health insurance costs, which you then go on to mislead about.

You also said that the premiums were high in your insurance plan because
most of the participants were older.

I pointed out, that the younger participants, given free choice, should
seek cheaper age scaled medical insurance (or a group with a younger
demographic).

Olive oil couldn't understand the economic point.
Olive oil probably still can't.
So much for Olive oil's economic insight.

Going off on mis-tangents pretending ignorance on the part of others won't
work here.

Notice that he also couldn't address the issue in the subject line: An OECD
healthcare comparison of US to other countries.

You are a phony and all your punky blather is just that - punky blather .

<snip blather>
J Antero - 26 Feb 2007 22:58 GMT
> Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious....

Your dishonesty is obvious, laughable and stupid.

Below is  a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New
England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989.

It gives some insight into the problems physicians face with the present
system. Previous articles/studies I've posted in this thread have indicated
the current US system wastes a lot of money,  is delivering results that are
somewhat worse than what other rich nations are getting, and costs a lot
more than the systems in those countries.

Taken from the website of Physicians for a National Health Program, there's
lots more.

http://www.pnhp.org/publications/a_national_health_program_for_the_united_states
.php?page=all


"""  As physicians, we constantly confront the irrationality of the present
health care system. In private practice, we waste countless hours on billing
and bureaucracy. For uninsured patients, we avoid procedures, consultations,
and costly medications. Diagnosis-related groups (DRGs) have placed us
between administrators demanding early discharge and elderly patients with
no one to help at home - all the while glancing over our shoulders at the
peer-review organization. In HMOs we walk a tightrope between thrift and
penuriousness, too often under the pressure of surveillance by bureaucrats
more concerned with the bottom line than with other measures of achievement.
In public health work we are frustrated in the face of plenty; the world's
richest health care system is unable to ensure such basic services as
prenatal care and immunizations.  """
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 02:13 GMT
> > Dapra and ant ignore the glaringly obvious....
>
> Your dishonesty is obvious, laughable and stupid.
>
> Below is  a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New
> England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989.

   Gee and here I felt guilty about including a study from '92.  

> """  As physicians, we constantly confront the irrationality of the present
> health care system. In private practice, we waste countless hours on billing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> no one to help at home - all the while glancing over our shoulders at the
> peer-review organization.
  DRGs are part of the Medicare system and thus are a harbinger of what
to expect when the Feds take over the whole system.
Jeff Crowell - 27 Feb 2007 14:07 GMT
> Below is  a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New
> England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> billing
> and bureaucracy.

Thereby supporting Tom's statement that if you consider the cost to the
provider as part of the cost of Medicare, it is far more expensive than
you claim.

Jeff
Kurt Ullman - 27 Feb 2007 15:09 GMT
> > Below is  a link and an extract from an article from the prestigious New
> > England Journal of Medicine 320:102-108 (January 12), 1989.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jeff
  One rather interesting note:
A recent American Medical Association survey of physicians found that
more than one-third of responding doctors spend an hour completing
Medicare paperwork for every four hours of patient care.

Richard F. Corlin M.D., President-Elect, American Medical Association,
"Medicare Reform: Bringing Regulatory Relief to Beneficiaries,"
statement before the Subcommittee on Health, Committee on Ways and
Means, U.S. House of Representatives, 107th Cong., 1st Sess., March 15,
2001, p. 12.

According to a consensus statement on Medicare reform by health care
policy experts, based on a May 2001 conference on Medicare at Vanderbilt
University School of Medicine, "Paperwork and compliance costs have
forced providers to employ staff dedicated to the process--rather than
to providing health care. The increasing complication of paperwork and
compliance with regulations, has resulted in less time for providers to
spend with patients."26

For example, the Mayo Foundation has estimated that the number of pages
of federal regulations and related paperwork that doctors and hospitals
must comply with in order to treat Medicare and Medicaid patients totals
more than 132,000 pages--almost 111,000 of which govern Medicare alone.
This is roughly six times the size of the impossibly complex Internal
Revenue Service code and its federal tax regulations.

The March 1998 edition of Physicians Management reported that one group
practice of 284 physicians pays between $130,000 and $195,000 per month
for dictation and transcription costs associated with preparation of
patient files to comply with Medicare record-keeping requirements. Those
figures do not take into account the costs associated with all other
compliance activities performed by the group.  Another cost of
administering the MCare system that is conveniently ignored.

From the American College of Physicians:
Physician concerns about the billing paperwork and administration
required by Medicare are leading many to limit their acceptance of
Medicare patients. According to a recent survey of physicians, almost 75
percent were concerned about this "hassle factor" and 16 percent said
that they had limited their acceptance of Medicare patients because of
this factor. [Source: Preliminary MedPAC Survey of Access to Physician
Services, September 2002].

    (Which BTW is also one of the reasons that docs in many specialties
are no longer accepting new MCare patients.

    Anyway, some interesting tidbits about Mcare total administrative
costs are being buried if not out right ignored.
Akorps@aol.com - 27 Feb 2007 09:58 GMT
Government generally is least efficient, followed by non-profit, while
for-profit tends to be most efficient.

The problem with government is that incentives tend to be to be as
inefficient as possible, only becoming efficient in response to public
pressure.

Non-profits tend to be idealistic but stupid, hence inefficient,
barely scraping by at the balance point between income and expenses.

There is so much inefficiency to be wringed out of the non-profit
sector that for-profit business invariably cleans their clock, despite
the 20% or so profit margin. The problem with the for-profit sector is
spillover costs, again public pressure is needed to eliminate those
spillover costs.
J Antero - 24 Feb 2007 16:28 GMT
>>>>The only reason she has a Senate seat is that she rose to prominence by
>>>>being married to a succesful ethically bankrupt politician. She married
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> The insurance companies scheme off about 20% of the health care cost. They
> are not about to let the skyscrapers of Hartford to be 'nuked'.

Well, the number I've heard from experts in media interviews is more like 30
pct.

Coporate power is only effective when there is no overriding voter pressure
for something to be done.

Until she displayed what a mess she was in the process of creating, the
Congress was not in the mood to resist the public will.
 
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