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History Forum / General / British History / March 2007George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] -- Excellent Writer
> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night > to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell How TRUE That Is... He writes SAFE instead of SAFELY... Actually, I think SAFE is better here. Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than SAFELY? DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Britannicus Traductus Sum >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than > SAFELY? Because he doesn't like adverbs? > DSH > > Lux et Veritas et Libertas > > Britannicus Traductus Sum >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than > SAFELY? Because he was also a poet, and "safe" has the imaginative ambiguity that "safely" does not. He said later "I could not do the writing of a book, or even a long magazine article, if it were not also an aesthetic experience". He was always a lefty, so he always demanded narrative even though he said he wanted to remove his own ego from his prose. >>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > He was always a lefty, I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 was his immortal condemnation of socialism. >so he always demanded narrative even though he said he wanted to remove his >own ego from his prose. >I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 was >his immortal condemnation of socialism. What does 1984 have to do with socialism? -- Richard  Signature"Consideration shall be given to the need for as many as 32 characters in some alphabets" - X3.4, 1963. > What does 1984 have to do with socialism? <'Kin Roared!> Are you an 'English' student? >> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 was >> his immortal condemnation of socialism. > > What does 1984 have to do with socialism? > > -- Richard Its just one of those Tory (derogatory word for Irish catholic) propaganda statements with no basis in truth On 29 Mar 2007 16:47:50 GMT, in uk.politics.misc richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin), wrote >>I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 was >>his immortal condemnation of socialism. > >What does 1984 have to do with socialism? Ingsoc Yes... Big Brother is a stand-in for Stalin. Orwell also condemned Socialism in _Animal Farm_. Pogue Gans, in common with MANY Left-Wing academics, has never understood all this. DSH > On 29 Mar 2007 16:47:50 GMT, in uk.politics.misc richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > Ingsoc > Yes... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>> >> Ingsoc surely you are confusing communism with socialism...Stalin was not a socialist (wasn't a communist really either, but thats what he claimed to be) and animal farm is about the corruption of the the communist state...not socialist state. On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:05:14 +0100, in uk.politics.misc "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>, wrote >Yes... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >DSH Admittedly, it is quite a surprise that anyone could actually read the books and *not* understand this. FACE Left-Wing Academics -- including Pogue Gans -- are in Hardcore Denial about Orwell and his Loss of Faith in Socialism. DSH > On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:05:14 +0100, in uk.politics.misc "D. Spencer > Hines" [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > FACE > >>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night > >>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >so he always demanded narrative even though he said he wanted to remove his > >own ego from his prose. At the end of his life, whether it was associated with illness or not, he spent time grassing up his left-wing associates to the government. Lefter-wing than the government was, I assume. >>>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 > was his immortal condemnation of socialism. On reflection, I think you're right. >> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. > > On reflection, I think you're right. Have either of you two idiots ever read a biography of Orwell? He remained a revolutionary Socialist until his death. What he didn't like was totalitarianism. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. This is the standard Slack-Arsed Socialist response. "The Great Socialist Revolution would ALL have turned out WONDERFULLY if only different people had LED it." Hilarious! How often have I heard it in Greenwich Village. They simply don't understand Human Nature. DSH >>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What he didn't like was totalitarianism. >>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What he didn't like was totalitarianism. Socialism is totalitarianism, you great big twat. >>>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >>>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Socialism is totalitarianism, you great big twat. So? It's Orwell not me we're talking about. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. >>>>> 1984 was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > So? So your distinction is false. Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to Communism, where misery is equally shared. But Communism cannot be achieved right away. Even Marx and Engels understood that much. That's why it was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR or CCCP in Russian] -- NOT the Union of Soviet Communist Republics. However, the state did not NOT "wither away" -- it simply became more oppressive -- until even many Russians didn't believe in it anymore -- and it collapsed because of both EXTERNAL and INTERNAL PRESSURES. Then the Soviet Empire collapsed. We Cold Warriors were integrally involved in making sure all that happened. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Za Mir Y Druzhbu Deus Vult > Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to > Communism, Who says so? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to >> Communism, > > Who says so? Hayek. >>> Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to >>> Communism, >> >> Who says so? > > Hayek. Oh gawd... Thatcher's inspiration... Can we try for someone a touch less doctrinaire please... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:00:10 +0100, in uk.politics.misc "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk>, wrote >>>> Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to >>>> Communism, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Can we try for someone a touch less doctrinaire please... Karl Marx said that socialism is the stepping stone to communism. ( guess he *was* pretty doctrinaire.........) FACE >>>> Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to >>>> Communism, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Can we try for someone a touch less doctrinaire please... You're a funny one... you ask a question, don't like the answer, and whine for a second go. > Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to > Communism, where misery is equally shared. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > oppressive -- until even many Russians didn't believe in it anymore -- and > it collapsed because of both EXTERNAL and INTERNAL PRESSURES. If it wasn't for Stalin's force-fed industrialization of the Soviet Union (financed by inducing a famine in Ukraine), and the Communist terror and discipline enforced on the Red Army and the Soviet workforce, Hitler probably would not have been defeated, at least not without the US/UK alliance using nuclear weapons. > Then the Soviet Empire collapsed. The proximal cause of the Soviet collapse was low oil prices. However, if their system had worked well, they would have progressed beyond being vulnerable to commodities fluctuations. > We Cold Warriors were integrally involved in making sure all that > happened. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Deus Vult > Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to > Communism, where misery is equally shared. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Deus Vult I hadn't realised that the contributers here were from the colonies. I suppose it is obvious really..people with vast inferiority complexes over-compensating by blowing their own trumpet as they re-invent history Walt Disney style On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:58:47 +0100, in uk.politics.misc kj <kevinjay@supernet.com>, wrote >> Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to >> Communism, where misery is equally shared. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >over-compensating by blowing their own trumpet as they re-invent history > Walt Disney style What an ugly little ethnocentrist you are. How are things in little england? FACE > On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:58:47 +0100, in uk.politics.misc kj > <kevinjay@supernet.com>, wrote [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > FACE would be a damn sight better if we weren't close to being just another airbase for the 'good old' USof A On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:47:40 +0100, in uk.politics.misc kj <kevinjay@supernet.com>, wrote >>> I hadn't realised that the contributers here were from the colonies. I >>> suppose it is obvious really..people with vast inferiority complexes [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >would be a damn sight better if we weren't close to being just another >airbase for the 'good old' USof A An airbase, eh? It is hard here not to suggest a new designation for your Oceanic province......Airstrip One perhaps. FACE >>would be a damn sight better if we weren't close to being just another >>airbase for the 'good old' USof A >An airbase, eh? It is hard here not to suggest a new designation for your >Oceanic province......Airstrip One perhaps. You don't have to explain everything. You're not the only one to have read the book. -- Richard Signature"Consideration shall be given to the need for as many as 32 characters in some alphabets" - X3.4, 1963. On 30 Mar 2007 13:17:42 GMT, in uk.politics.misc richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin), wrote >>>would be a damn sight better if we weren't close to being just another >>>airbase for the 'good old' USof A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >You don't have to explain everything. You're not the only one to have >read the book. Really? I thought I was......... Sticks in the craw does it? DSH >> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:58:47 +0100, in uk.politics.misc kj >> What an ugly little ethnocentrist you are. How are things in little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would be a damn sight better if we weren't close to being just another > airbase for the 'good old' USof A > Sticks in the craw does it? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> would be a damn sight better if we weren't close to being just another >> airbase for the 'good old' USof A not really ..all empires have their day and we've had ours...luckily we have survived it, many havn't....will you survive your downfall? > Socialism unchallenged, unchecked and unfettered leads inexorably to > Communism, where misery is equally shared. Like in Sweden? > But Communism cannot be achieved right away. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Deus Vult Blair found it VERY difficult, both emotionally and intellectually, to break with or directly criticize his Socialist British Labour colleagues -- so he often made contradictory personal statements and wrote letters of pained disavowal. But the True Testament of the man is in his last two, and best, books -- _Animal Farm_ [1945] and _Ninety-Eighty Four_ [1949] and they obviously reflect his Loss of Faith in _The God That Failed_*. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Deus Vult * <http://www.amazon.com/God-That-Failed-Arthur-Koestler/dp/0231123957/ref=pd_bbs_1 /103-9233362-9794222?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175202500&sr=1-1> > Blair found it VERY difficult, both emotionally and intellectually, to > break with or directly criticize his Socialist British Labour > colleagues -- so he often made contradictory personal statements and wrote > letters of pained disavowal. That'll be why he fought with the POUM then... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> Blair found it VERY difficult, both emotionally and intellectually, to >> break with or directly criticize his Socialist British Labour >> colleagues -- so he often made contradictory personal statements and wrote >> letters of pained disavowal. > > That'll be why he fought with the POUM then... please don't try and confuse Americans with real facts..their entire society will collapse. >>>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >>>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Socialism is totalitarianism, you great big twat. Socialism is taxation you stupid moronic twat. Every country in the world is socialist to some degree. Just some are more socialist than others. The real evil is state control and you can have that even in a country like the USofA which is now less free than many more socialist countries like Germany or Switzerland SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >>>>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > like the USofA which is now less free than many more socialist > countries like Germany or Switzerland confuse them by calling them a theocracy...they obviously don't understand what socialism is, but then, with their education system and thought control, who can blame them! > >>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 > >>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Socialism is totalitarianism, you great big twat But Orwell nevertheless remained a Socialist until his death. joblard@hushmail.com (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <1175238659.674712.226630@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>: >> >>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. >> >>> 1984 was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > But Orwell nevertheless remained a Socialist until his death. Socialism got corrupted by totalitarianism. For Socialism as it should have been read "News from Nowhere" by William Morris. (If only!) Was George Orwell any relation to T**y Blair? SignatureThis sig intentionally left blank Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply ... > Socialism got corrupted by totalitarianism.... You do talk some bollocks, totalitarianism is a major component of socialism SignatureRegards or otherwise, Periander http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/resignTony/ (Not that it will do the slightest bit of good) Costing the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars, Periander said: > ... > > > > Socialism got corrupted by totalitarianism.... > > You do talk some bollocks, totalitarianism is a major component of > socialism You're both talking shite, the two are orthogonal. Yet it's quite AMAZING how few Lefties understand that simple Fact of History. _Animal Farm_ [1945] came first -- before _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ [1949]. "In 1944, Orwell finished his anti-Stalinist allegory Animal Farm, which was published the following year with great critical and popular success. The royalties from _Animal Farm_ were to provide Orwell with a comfortable income for the first time in his adult life." Remember when the Loony Left were saying it was now 1984 and Orwell was right because we had Reagan in power -- and REAGAN was Big Brother. Their capacity for DENIAL is simply hilarious. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >>>>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>>>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > On reflection, I think you're right. > Yet it's quite AMAZING how few Lefties understand that simple Fact of > History. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. >> On reflection, I think you're right. as is you ability to mis-interpret fact. >>>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>so he always demanded narrative even though he said he wanted to remove >>his own ego from his prose. Perhaps you confuse socialism and communism? SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). >>>>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>>>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > Perhaps you confuse socialism and communism? I think they confuse George Orwell with someone else - someone who doesn't exist except in their fevered imaginations it would appear.. Orwell ( a lifelong socialist) was writing about totalitarianism - sort of thing that is begininng to appear in both the US and UK. The form of government is irrelevant - facism to communism - any form of government can be corrupted by totalitarianism if the people are to stupid to see it coming. >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Britannicus Traductus Sum I've read quite a lot of Orwell, and I remember the above passage - not sure where it's from though (was it from 'Aspidistra'?). However, I'm not sure that you have quoted him correctly (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, because I'm not very sure), but didn't he actually say 'sleep *peaceably*'? I certainly agree with you that he was an excellent writer. >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell >Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than SAFELY? Because it's describing us: we are safe while we sleep. It's not that the sleeping is done in a safe manner. If you slept on a narrow ledge on a mountain side, that would be sleeping unsafely. -- Richard Signature"Consideration shall be given to the need for as many as 32 characters in some alphabets" - X3.4, 1963. abuse-mail@mci.com On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:25:53 +0100, in uk.politics.misc "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>, wrote >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Britannicus Traductus Sum I am the only one i know of who uses that quote and I could explain the subtle redirection of focus by word usage. However, since you qualify the explanation to "Brits", I won't. So there! FACE >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than > SAFELY? The "Smart Brits" will point out that it is one of those Internet misquotations foisted on George Orwell, and also Winston Churchill, without any evidence that either of them wrote it. SignatureJohn Briggs >>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell >> Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than >> SAFELY? > > The "Smart Brits" will point out that it is one of those Internet > misquotations foisted on George Orwell, and also Winston Churchill, > without any evidence that either of them wrote it. The Smart Brits really couldn't give a flying f.ck. And, yes I did ask them both. “Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell Blair found it VERY difficult, both emotionally and intellectually, to break with or directly criticize his Socialist British Labour colleagues -- so he often made contradictory personal statements and wrote letters of pained disavowal. But the True Testament of the man is in his last two, and best, books -- _Animal Farm_ [1945] and _Ninety-Eighty Four_ [1949] and they obviously reflect his Loss of Faith in _The God That Failed_*. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Deus Vult * <http://www.amazon.com/God-That-Failed-Arthur-Koestler/dp/0231123957/ref=pd_bbs_1 /103-9233362-9794222?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175202500&sr=1-1> This is the standard Slack-Arsed, Ignorant, Stubborn, Socialist response. "The Great Socialist Revolution would ALL have turned out WONDERFULLY if only different people had LED it." Hilarious! How often have I heard it in Greenwich Village. They simply don't understand Human Nature. DSH >>> I think in the end, he realised the terminal failings of the Left. 1984 >>> was his immortal condemnation of socialism. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What he didn't like was totalitarianism. >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Can any of the Smart Brits here tell us why he used SAFE rather than SAFELY? I'm not a BRit,. but I will answer: because "safe" refers to "we", and thus is an adjective He is taking literary license with language and making "sleep" into an intransitive verb which takes an after-adjective. In other words, "sleep" is being used the same way as "are" is in the simple "We are safe in our beds". It could be rewritten, "We sleep in our beds, safe because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm" which would make a more commonplace grammatical construct. It's these little modulations of the language ... ones that work ... that make memorable quotes from great writers. Doug McDonald > >> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night > >> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Doug McDonald Nice try Doug but I don't see a gold star from the original author of this post. Still it might still be winging its way to you if the challenge was open to foreigners. Sizy George Orwell. _Politics And The English Language_ <http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/index.cgi/work/essays/language.html> DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Doug McDonald Every rule has an exception and some will boldly go to exploit it. Ahem! SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). >>> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night >>> to visit violence on those who would do us harm. -- George Orwell [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Doug McDonald Make that a memorable misquote. What he actually said was (with reference to pacifism): "Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf". |
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