Re: Police Describe Struggle To Enter Hall At VirginiaTech
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D. Spencer Hines - 27 Apr 2007 19:08 GMT It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did an excellent job.
The pity is that they were so badly let down by the ACADEMICS, ADMINISTRATORS, JUDICIALS, PSYCHIATRISTS and "COUNSELORS" -- both at Virginia Tech and in the region -- who SHOULD have ENSURED that Cho was in a State HOSPITAL -- NOT at a State UNIVERSITY.
Those two "PLAYS" Cho wrote were enough to tip ANY intelligent person to the fact that Cho was a VERY SICK PUPPY.
Read the two "plays" and see for yourself.
<http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/>
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Fortem Posce Animum
Ray O'Hara - 27 Apr 2007 19:13 GMT > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did an > excellent job. they filed miserable. they were on campus investigating the first shooting, they did such a good job that 30 more were killed and as many maimed. the POLICE f.cked UP.
The Highlander - 28 Apr 2007 17:19 GMT >> It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did >an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >they did such a good job that 30 more were killed and as many maimed. >the POLICE f.cked UP. What a shame you weren't there, Ray, to show them how to handle it.
Tankfixer - 28 Apr 2007 21:34 GMT In article <LPOdnQsxJ8GmoK_bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@rcn.net>, mary.palmucci@rcn.com mumbled
> > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did > an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they did such a good job that 30 more were killed and as many maimed. > the POLICE f.cked UP. I see you are another idiot who thinks crimes get solved in 1 hour time blocks.
-- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads."
TMOliver - 29 Apr 2007 17:29 GMT > mary.palmucci@rcn.com mumbled
>> > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all >> > did [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I see you are another idiot who thinks crimes get solved in 1 hour time > blocks. As critical as I was, I'm not sure anybody "failed", especially the police.
Not allowing for some extra time spent chaining the doors, Cho second assault lasted 9 minutes, and that likely only because the police were already on campus and at least "heads' up" and could respond quickly to a building some distance from the first shootings over two hours earlier. Obviously, Cho seems to have (maybe even returning to his room on the way) walked slowly across campus, unsuspected and unnoticed, gone to the post office, and preceded with his murderous plan.
Since the police had no clue as to the ID of the shooter and "closing" a campus like VT is for practical purposes both unworkable and impossible, with literally thousands of students on foot and bikes circulating constantly (and in this case with the shooter hidden unknown among them), the police, VTs, Blackburg's, the Sheriff's and the State's did about as well as could be expected. How much quicker than 9 minutes could they have been in the doors? From all accounts, Cho shot himself as soon as he heard or knew the police in the building, not seeking a confrontation with them.
As for claims that every building on campus could have been secured, that's simply fictional Happy Horseshit, even with three or four times as many police.
The "armed student" issue forms one of those conjectural what ifs, with no guarantee that even in the most optimistic of scenarios that one or more folks with CCW permits (and the pistols, since I know dozens of permit holders who don't "carry" their permitted pieces into potentially uncomfortable venues) would have been in the building and the classrooms the shooter invaded.
Perhaps the most appropriate questions involve the extent to which in a "free society" citizens deserve to be protected from those who manifest actions (and words?) that indicate they are a danger to themselves (and to others?). Obviously, a part of those questions involve his ability to buy pistols given his history. I'd like a better answer than I've seen so far as to his overall academic performance and what maddening justification there was for his continued enrollment?
But then, I never had such tolerant and unassuming roommates.
TMO
D. Spencer Hines - 29 Apr 2007 17:55 GMT Bingo!
That shoe has yet to drop.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas --------------------------------------
> ...I'd like a better answer than I've seen so far as to his overall > academic performance and what maddening justification there was for his > continued enrollment?... Mark Test - 29 Apr 2007 19:02 GMT >I'd like a better answer than I've seen so far > as to his overall academic performance and what maddening justification > there was for his continued enrollment? The college loved his cash, and could care less about his mental state.
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
D. Spencer Hines - 27 Apr 2007 21:20 GMT Now we get the eminently predictable OVERREACTION by the same sort of incompetent ACADEMICS, et alii.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas -----------------------------------------------
Essay arrest baffles experts Chicago Sun-Times
April 27, 2007
BY DAN ROZEK, ROSALIND ROSSI AND ABDON M. PALLASCH Staff Reporters
Police Thursday released portions of an essay used to charge a Cary-Grove High School student with disorderly conduct, leaving several experts puzzled at an arrest based on such schoolwork.
Asked to write about whatever he wanted in a creative writing class, would-be Marine and honors student Allen Lee, 18, described a violent dream in which he shot people and then "had sex with the dead bodies.''
But then he immediately dismissed the idea as a mere joke, writing, "not really, but it would be funny if I did.''
A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first-year teacher Nora Capron by writing that "as a teacher, don't be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting,'' an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High.
Lee said Thursday he was "completely shocked'' to be arrested Tuesday for his essay, especially because written instructions told kids not to "censor'' what they wrote.
"In creative writing, you're told to exaggerate,'' said Lee. "It was supposed to be just junk. . . .
"There definitely is violent content, but they're taking it out of context and making it something it isn't.''
"I have no intention of harming anyone,'' said Lee, who has been transferred to an alternative school setting. "I miss school.''
Lee's father, Albert Lee, who emigrated from China 32 years ago, said his son has a clean academic and police record. He, too, insisted his son's essay was not threatening but authorities "drew a conclusion before the investigation. They didn't want to do the investigation.''
However, the father would not comment on whether he believed authorities acted quickly because his son is of Asian heritage, as was the Virginia Tech campus shooter.
Family therapist Michael Gurian, author of The Minds of Boys, said Allen Lee needs at least good counseling, but "If he was arrested solely based on those words, I don't see that as the most helpful course.''
Bernardine Dohrn, director of Northwestern University's Children and Family Justice Center, laughed when she heard the charge.
"You might want to talk to him, talk to his parents, but the criminal justice system seems to be the last thing you'd want,'' said Dohrn, a former Weatherman leader who lived for years as a fugitive.
Mike McInerney, former head of the Cook County Public Defender's Juvenile Court office, said he "wouldn't be happy'' if his son wrote such words but "I wouldn't criminalize free expression. . . . I don't think it's going to hold up criminally.''
Write or wrong
Excerpts from Allen Lee’s essay
• “As a teacher, don’t be surprised on inspiring the first CG [Cary-Grove High School] shooting.”
• “Blood, sex, booze. Drugs, drugs, drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, s..t..a..b...puke.”
• “So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P 90s [submachine guns] and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did.” what do you think? -----------------------------------------------------------
It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did an excellent job.
The pity is that they were so badly let down by the ACADEMICS, ADMINISTRATORS, JUDICIALS, PSYCHIATRISTS and "COUNSELORS" -- both at Virginia Tech and in the region -- who SHOULD have ENSURED that Cho was in a State HOSPITAL -- NOT at a State UNIVERSITY.
Those two "PLAYS" Cho wrote were enough to tip ANY intelligent person to the fact that Cho was a VERY SICK PUPPY.
Read the two "plays" and see for yourself.
<http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/>
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Fortem Posce Animum
Tiglath - 28 Apr 2007 02:59 GMT > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did > an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Read the two "plays" and see for yourself. The students did nothing wrong either. They followed the doctrine they were taught.
The real culprit here is the DOCTRINE they were taught, and it's a doctrine that is taught not only to students.
The SUBMIT AND COOPERATE with criminals doctrine. According to it, when a student is in a class where an executioner is carrying out his grisly work, and there is no escape all there is to do is to choose a desk to die under, close your eyes, pray, and think that help is on the way.
True, it's better to hand your wallet over than to get shot, but there are situations where one can do a lot better than THE DOCTRINE would have it.
No one is saying that the alternatives are devoid of risk, but any alternative to certain death is a good alternative.
The passengers of United Flight 93 certainly showed that there is a BETTER DOCTRINE then the current do-nothing-and-hope-for-the-best philosophy.
It was a tragic outcome, but they saved other lives, and at some point they may even have had the chance to wrest the controls from the hijackers and saved themselves, though it was not to be.
From now on it will take several armed hijackers to take control of a plane -- or bus -- not completely filled with wusses. I doubt people are going to shrink back from box cutters, ice picks, or even a single gunman.
It's a shame that a man can kill 30 young vigorous persons because none of them had the oomph to say "hell NO!" and charge the Korean a.shole and stick his Glock up his a.s.
The living should LIVE AND LEARN.
CHANGE THE DOCTRINE OF ABJECT PASSIVITY.
> <http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Fortem Posce Animum a425couple - 29 Apr 2007 03:11 GMT > "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote > > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > intelligent person to the fact that Cho was a VERY SICK PUPPY. > > Read the two "plays" and see for yourself. I'm generally in agreement, but wish to point out some. #1 You are talking about Involuntary Commitment (incarcaration without any crime having taken place). When the laws and rules allowed more, we had the excesses as pointed out to general public in "Francis Farmer" and "One flew over the Cookoo's Nest". #2 Both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' worked on greatly reforming the system (the two sides had some similar reasons, and some very different motives). #3 Then the system had emphasis on "due process", rights of those accused of 'thinking crazy', and certainly both sides are very uneasy about any incareration being done prior to any actual crime, just because of 'thoughts' or what any professional may believe may happen in the future. #4 There are grave doubts about how accurate any professional is in predicting future human behavior - esp. "ACADEMICS, ADMINISTRATORS, PSYCHIATRISTS and COUNSELORS"
> The students did nothing wrong either. They followed > the doctrine they were taught. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > The living should LIVE AND LEARN. > CHANGE THE DOCTRINE OF ABJECT PASSIVITY. Excelent post displaying very valid thoughts, Tiglath. I consider your use of "Doctrine" to include, Policy and Procedure, SOPS, Training, Practice, Rules of Engagement etc.
Background - I feel that in the modern world (and esp. USA) we are lucky in having a considerable number or inteligent, capable, well intentioned and thoughtful individuals enter every profession and discipline. (Guess that makes me different than many ng posters who regularly use stereotypes of groups!) These tend to rise in influence in their area. Many go with studies and statistics in formulating "best use" plans / SOPs. Any one incident is an antidote, all need to be considered to determine odds and probabilities, to teach from.
Around 1960-1975 increasing study was done on subject of armed criminals and dead victims. Vast majority involved a criminal (bad - but not intending murder) being resisted, and victim dying. Bank hold-ups were often classic. Banks do not like dead employes and customers.
So training was given to comply, and deaths fell greatly. (And I am relating what happened, not discussing judgement on right or wrong, or even what the consideration of the long range 'conditioning' that was being done to both victim and suspect by this. So do not attack the messenger!) (and related very much to me, I was earning my way through high school and college working nights at gas stations. I was certainly effected, and my pay was also, by the fact we had a very bad dude (actually 2) going around holding up stations, then killing the clerks anyway to eliminate witnesses!)
And, on airplanes, similar consideration, huge evidence that there was very little loss of life when the pilots went along and did as they were told.
Even cruise ships.
Police studies showed that in a hostage situation, the best thing to do was for initial responders to work to stall, diffuse, wait for hostage negotiators, and then only as last resort use SWAT/deadly force intrusion.
Sure, there have always been, and will always be, specific cases that go against the SOP/ROE. That was then. Now is now.
Until Columbine HS, there was very little to disagree with - (two paragraphs up). Until 9-11, there was very little to disagree with - (four paragraphs up.)
Sidestep - but it relates. 1. Chess is an excellent game. But tends to some false conditioning because the intelligence info on the opponent is almost all clearly known. You always know his location and capabilities. 2. Stratego is a kinda similar game, but you are never sure of what an opponent piece is until you make contact. Against a good predictable opponent, one method that often works is to place all your pieces haphazardly, then change only a couple. 3. American football, why does coach when the running plays are doing well, try a pass? -Doing something unexpected is an advantage and can work against standard preparations.
I gotta go, will get real short. It takes either a long time or a dramatic event to change the S.O.P.s I personally can not fault the pilots of the first couple planes in 9-11. Nor officers at Columbine.
There are obviously both advantages and disadvantages in having more armed people in any crowd. In USA, seems the odds of preventing any willful plotting criminal from getting a gun are long gone.
But it sure helps overall, if there are some willing and courageous "sheep dogs", willing to try to lead a fight back against an attacker.
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