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History Forum / General / British History / April 2007



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Re: Police Describe Struggle To Enter Hall At VirginiaTech

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D. Spencer Hines - 27 Apr 2007 19:08 GMT
It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did an
excellent job.

The pity is that they were so badly let down by the ACADEMICS,
ADMINISTRATORS, JUDICIALS, PSYCHIATRISTS and "COUNSELORS" -- both at
Virginia Tech and in the region -- who SHOULD have ENSURED that Cho was in a
State HOSPITAL -- NOT at a State UNIVERSITY.

Those two "PLAYS" Cho wrote were enough to tip ANY intelligent person to the
fact that Cho was a VERY SICK PUPPY.

Read the two "plays" and see for yourself.

<http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/>

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Fortem Posce Animum
Ray O'Hara - 27 Apr 2007 19:13 GMT
> It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did an
> excellent job.

they filed miserable. they were on campus investigating the first shooting,
they did such a good job that 30 more were killed and as many maimed.
the POLICE f.cked UP.
The Highlander - 28 Apr 2007 17:19 GMT
>> It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did
>an
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>they did such a good job that 30 more were killed and as many maimed.
>the POLICE f.cked UP.

What a shame you weren't there, Ray, to show them how to handle it.
Tankfixer - 28 Apr 2007 21:34 GMT
In article <LPOdnQsxJ8GmoK_bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@rcn.net>,
mary.palmucci@rcn.com mumbled

> > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did
> an
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> they did such a good job that 30 more were killed and as many maimed.
> the POLICE f.cked UP.

I see you are another idiot who thinks crimes get solved in 1 hour time
blocks.


--
Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a
diet of static text and
cascading "threads."
TMOliver - 29 Apr 2007 17:29 GMT
> mary.palmucci@rcn.com mumbled

>> > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all
>> > did
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I see you are another idiot who thinks crimes get solved in 1 hour time
> blocks.

As critical as I was, I'm not sure anybody "failed", especially the police.

Not allowing for some extra time spent chaining the doors, Cho second
assault lasted 9 minutes, and that likely only because the police were
already on campus and at least "heads' up" and could respond quickly to a
building some distance from the first shootings over two hours earlier.
Obviously, Cho seems to have (maybe even returning to his room on the way)
walked slowly across campus, unsuspected and unnoticed, gone to the post
office, and preceded with his murderous plan.

Since the police had no clue as to the ID of the shooter and "closing" a
campus like VT is for practical purposes both unworkable and impossible,
with literally thousands of students on foot and bikes circulating
constantly (and in this case with the shooter hidden unknown among them),
the police, VTs, Blackburg's, the Sheriff's and the State's did about as
well as could be expected.  How much quicker than 9 minutes could they have
been in the doors?  From all accounts, Cho shot himself as soon as he heard
or knew the police in the building, not seeking a confrontation with them.

As for claims that every building on campus could have been secured, that's
simply fictional Happy Horseshit, even with three or four times as many
police.

The "armed student" issue forms one of those conjectural what ifs, with no
guarantee that even in the most optimistic of scenarios that one or more
folks with CCW permits (and the pistols, since I know dozens of permit
holders who don't "carry" their permitted pieces into potentially
uncomfortable venues) would have been in the building and the classrooms the
shooter invaded.

Perhaps the most appropriate questions involve the extent to which in a
"free society" citizens deserve to be protected from those who manifest
actions (and words?) that indicate they are a danger to themselves (and to
others?).  Obviously, a part of those questions involve his ability to buy
pistols given his history.  I'd like a better answer than I've seen so far
as to his overall academic performance and what maddening justification
there was for his continued enrollment?

But then, I never had such tolerant and unassuming roommates.

TMO
D. Spencer Hines - 29 Apr 2007 17:55 GMT
Bingo!

That shoe has yet to drop.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------

> ...I'd like a better answer than I've seen so far as to his overall
> academic performance and what maddening justification there was for his
> continued enrollment?...
Mark Test - 29 Apr 2007 19:02 GMT
>I'd like a better answer than I've seen so far
> as to his overall academic performance and what maddening justification
> there was for his continued enrollment?

The college loved his cash, and could care less about his
mental state.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

D. Spencer Hines - 27 Apr 2007 21:20 GMT
Now we get the eminently predictable OVERREACTION by the same sort of
incompetent ACADEMICS, et alii.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-----------------------------------------------

Essay arrest baffles experts
Chicago Sun-Times

April 27, 2007

BY DAN ROZEK, ROSALIND ROSSI AND ABDON M. PALLASCH Staff Reporters

Police Thursday released portions of an essay used to charge a Cary-Grove
High School student with disorderly conduct, leaving several experts puzzled
at an arrest based on such schoolwork.

Asked to write about whatever he wanted in a creative writing class,
would-be Marine and honors student Allen Lee, 18, described a violent dream
in which he shot people and then "had sex with the dead bodies.''

But then he immediately dismissed the idea as a mere joke, writing, "not
really, but it would be funny if I did.''

A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first-year teacher Nora
Capron by writing that "as a teacher, don't be surprised on [sic] inspiring
the first CG shooting,'' an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High.

Lee said Thursday he was "completely shocked'' to be arrested Tuesday for
his essay, especially because written instructions told kids not to
"censor'' what they wrote.

"In creative writing, you're told to exaggerate,'' said Lee. "It was
supposed to be just junk. . . .

"There definitely is violent content, but they're taking it out of context
and making it something it isn't.''

"I have no intention of harming anyone,'' said Lee, who has been transferred
to an alternative school setting. "I miss school.''

Lee's father, Albert Lee, who emigrated from China 32 years ago, said his
son has a clean academic and police record. He, too, insisted his son's
essay was not threatening but authorities "drew a conclusion before the
investigation. They didn't want to do the investigation.''

However, the father would not comment on whether he believed authorities
acted quickly because his son is of Asian heritage, as was the Virginia Tech
campus shooter.

Family therapist Michael Gurian, author of The Minds of Boys, said Allen Lee
needs at least good counseling, but "If he was arrested solely based on
those words, I don't see that as the most helpful course.''

Bernardine Dohrn, director of Northwestern University's Children and Family
Justice Center, laughed when she heard the charge.

"You might want to talk to him, talk to his parents, but the criminal
justice system seems to be the last thing you'd want,'' said Dohrn, a former
Weatherman leader who lived for years as a fugitive.

Mike McInerney, former head of the Cook County Public Defender's Juvenile
Court office, said he "wouldn't be happy'' if his son wrote such words but
"I wouldn't criminalize free expression. . . . I don't think it's going to
hold up criminally.''

Write or wrong

Excerpts from Allen Lee’s essay

•  “As a teacher, don’t be surprised on inspiring the first CG
[Cary-Grove High School] shooting.”

•  “Blood, sex, booze. Drugs, drugs, drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab,
stab, s..t..a..b...puke.”

•  “So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out
two P 90s [submachine guns] and started shooting everyone, then had sex
with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did.”
what do you think?
-----------------------------------------------------------

It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did an
excellent job.

The pity is that they were so badly let down by the ACADEMICS,
ADMINISTRATORS, JUDICIALS, PSYCHIATRISTS and "COUNSELORS" -- both at
Virginia Tech and in the region -- who SHOULD have ENSURED that Cho was in a
State HOSPITAL -- NOT at a State UNIVERSITY.

Those two "PLAYS" Cho wrote were enough to tip ANY intelligent person to the
fact that Cho was a VERY SICK PUPPY.

Read the two "plays" and see for yourself.

<http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/>

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Fortem Posce Animum
Tiglath - 28 Apr 2007 02:59 GMT
> It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE all did
> an
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Read the two "plays" and see for yourself.

The students did nothing wrong either.  They followed the doctrine they were
taught.

The real culprit here is the DOCTRINE they were taught, and it's a doctrine
that is taught not only to students.

The SUBMIT AND COOPERATE with criminals doctrine.   According to it, when a
student is in a class where an executioner is carrying out his grisly work,
and there is no escape all there is to do is to choose a desk to die under,
close your eyes, pray, and think that help is on the way.

True, it's better to hand your wallet over than to get shot, but there are
situations where one can do a lot better than THE DOCTRINE would have it.

No one is saying that the alternatives are devoid of risk, but any
alternative to certain death is a good alternative.

The passengers of United Flight 93 certainly showed that there is a BETTER
DOCTRINE then the current do-nothing-and-hope-for-the-best philosophy.

It was a tragic outcome, but they saved other lives, and at some point they
may even have had the chance to wrest the controls from the hijackers and
saved themselves, though it was not to be.

From now on it will take several armed hijackers to take control of a
plane -- or bus --  not completely filled with wusses.   I doubt people are
going to shrink back from box cutters, ice picks, or even a single gunman.

It's a shame that a man can kill 30 young vigorous persons because none of
them had the oomph to say "hell NO!" and charge the Korean a.shole and stick
his Glock up his a.s.

The living should LIVE AND LEARN.

CHANGE THE DOCTRINE OF ABJECT PASSIVITY.

> <http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Fortem Posce Animum
a425couple - 29 Apr 2007 03:11 GMT
> "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote
> > It looks as if the Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia POLICE
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > intelligent person to the fact that Cho was a VERY SICK PUPPY.
> > Read the two "plays" and see for yourself.

I'm generally in agreement, but wish to point out some.
#1  You are talking about Involuntary Commitment
(incarcaration without any crime having taken place).
When the laws and rules allowed more, we had the
excesses as pointed out to general public in "Francis
Farmer" and "One flew over the Cookoo's Nest".
#2  Both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' worked on
greatly reforming the system (the two sides had some
similar reasons, and some very different motives).
#3 Then the system had emphasis on "due process",
rights of those accused of 'thinking crazy', and
certainly both sides are very uneasy about any
incareration being done prior to any actual crime,
just because of 'thoughts' or what any professional
may believe may happen in the future.
#4  There are grave doubts about how accurate any
professional is in predicting future human behavior
- esp. "ACADEMICS, ADMINISTRATORS,
PSYCHIATRISTS and COUNSELORS"

> The students did nothing wrong either.  They followed
> the doctrine they were taught.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> The living should LIVE AND LEARN.
> CHANGE THE DOCTRINE OF ABJECT PASSIVITY.

Excelent post displaying very valid thoughts, Tiglath.
I consider your use of "Doctrine" to include, Policy and
Procedure, SOPS, Training, Practice, Rules of Engagement etc.

Background - I feel that in the modern world (and esp. USA)
we are lucky in having a considerable number or inteligent,
capable, well intentioned and thoughtful individuals enter
every profession and discipline.  (Guess that makes me different
than many ng posters who regularly use stereotypes of groups!)
These tend to rise in influence in their area.  Many go with
studies and statistics in formulating "best use" plans / SOPs.
Any one incident is an antidote, all need to be considered
to determine odds and probabilities, to teach from.

Around 1960-1975 increasing study was done on subject
of armed criminals and dead victims.  Vast majority involved
a criminal (bad - but not intending murder) being resisted,
and victim dying.  Bank hold-ups were often classic.
Banks do not like dead employes and customers.

So training was given to comply, and deaths fell greatly.
(And I am relating what happened, not discussing judgement
on right or wrong, or even what the consideration of the
long range 'conditioning' that was being done to both victim
and suspect by this.  So do not attack the messenger!)
(and related very much to me, I was earning my way through
high school and college working nights at gas stations.
I was certainly effected, and my pay was also, by the fact
we had a very bad dude (actually 2) going around holding
up stations, then killing the clerks anyway to eliminate
witnesses!)

And, on airplanes, similar consideration, huge evidence
that there was very little loss of life when the pilots
went along and did as they were told.

Even cruise ships.

Police studies showed that in a hostage situation, the
best thing to do was for initial responders to work to
stall, diffuse, wait for hostage negotiators, and then
only as last resort use SWAT/deadly force intrusion.

Sure, there have always been, and will always be,
specific cases that go against the SOP/ROE.
That was then.  Now is now.

Until Columbine HS, there was very little to disagree
with - (two paragraphs up).
Until 9-11, there was very little to disagree with -
(four paragraphs up.)

Sidestep - but it relates.
1. Chess is an excellent game.  But tends to some
false conditioning because the intelligence info on the
opponent is almost all clearly known.  You always
know his location and capabilities.
2.  Stratego is a kinda similar game, but you are never
sure of what an opponent piece is until you make
contact.  Against a good predictable opponent,
one method that often works is to place all your
pieces haphazardly, then change only a couple.
3.  American football, why does coach when
the running plays are doing well, try a pass?
-Doing something unexpected is an advantage
and can work against standard preparations.

I gotta go, will get real short.
It takes either a long time or a dramatic event to
change the S.O.P.s
I personally can not fault the pilots of the first
couple planes in 9-11.  Nor officers at Columbine.

There are obviously both advantages and disadvantages
in having more armed people in any crowd.
In USA, seems the odds of preventing any willful
plotting criminal from getting a gun are long gone.

But it sure helps overall, if there are some willing
and courageous "sheep dogs", willing to try to lead
a fight back against an attacker.
 
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