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_Killing Him Softly_

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D. Spencer Hines - 19 Dec 2003 08:51 GMT
Krauthammer At His Best....
------------------------

"Killing Him Softly"

By Charles Krauthammer

Friday, December 19, 2003
The Washington Post

"The race is over. The Oscar for Best Documentary, Short Subject, goes
to . . . "Saddam's Dental Exam."

Screenplay: 1st Brigade, U.S. 4th Infantry Division.

Producer: P. Bremer Enterprises, Baghdad.

Director: The anonymous genius at U.S. headquarters who chose this clip
as the world's first view of Saddam Hussein in captivity.

In the old days the conquered tyrant was dragged through the streets
behind the Roman general's chariot. Or paraded shackled before a jeering
crowd. Or, when more finality was required, had his head placed on a
spike on the tower wall.

Iraq has its own ways. In the revolution of 1958, Prime Minister Nuri
Said was caught by a crowd and murdered, and his body was dragged behind
a car through the streets of Baghdad until there was nothing left but
half a leg.

We Americans don't do it that way. Instead, we show Saddam Hussein --
King of Kings, Lion of the Tigris, Saladin of the Arabs -- compliantly
opening his mouth like a child to the universal indignity of an oral
(and head lice!) exam. Docility wrapped in banality. Brilliant. Nothing
could have been better calculated to demystify the all-powerful tyrant.

It was a beautiful sight. But it was more than that. It was a deeply
important historical moment. More than the fate of a man is at stake
here. At stake is the fate of an idea, an idea of singular malignancy
that has cost the Arabs not just countless innocent lives but a
half-century of progress.

Hussein was the most aggressive and enduring exemplar of a particular
kind of deformed Arabism, a kind that arose in the post-colonial era,
appealed to the greater glory of the Arab nation and promised a great
restoration. Ironically, its methods and ideology were imported from the
West, the worst of the West. The Baath Party was modeled on the fascist
parties in early 20th-century Europe. Its economics were Western
socialism at its most stifling and corrupt. Hussein then created the
perfect fusion of the two, producing a totalitarianism of surpassing
cruelty modeled consciously on Stalin's.

Hussein's destiny is important because he was the last and the greatest
of these pan-Arab pretenders, though he gave it a psychotically sadistic
character unmatched anywhere in the Arab world. This stream of Arab
nationalism brought nothing but poverty, corruption, despair, torture
and ruin to large swaths of the Arab world. The mass graves of Iraq are
its permanent monument.

This is why it was important not just to capture Hussein but to
demystify him -- and with him, the half-century spell that radical
pan-Arabism had cast over the entire Middle East. It was important that
the god-king of pan-Arabism be shown as the pathetic coward he was. It
was important to finally shatter what Fouad Ajami called "the dream
palace of the Arabs." And to banish the grotesque fantasy, perpetrated
by Hussein and his acolytes in the Arab intelligentsia, that Arab
greatness -- once built on a magnificent civilization of science,
culture and tolerance -- is to be rebuilt upon blood, power and cruelty.

It seemed as if that fantasy had been dealt a fatal blow when Baghdad
fell so suddenly on April 9. Instead of the promised Battle of Baghdad,
confronting and perhaps even stopping the Americans in heroic
street-by-street combat, there was nothing. Just ignominious collapse.
The Arab media, particularly the al-Jazeeras that had long lionized
Hussein and promoted "Baghdad Bob's" comical claims of Iraqi war
victories, were shocked and humiliated. They themselves had to admit
that this was the greatest psychological blow to Arab nationalist
pretensions since the similarly vainglorious Gamal Abdel Nasser was
routed by Israel in six days in June 1967.

But then came the Iraqi insurgency: the bloodying of the Americans, the
doubts at home, the charges of "quagmire," the visions of Vietnam, the
notion that the United States might in the end be defeated -- tire and
leave the field once again to Hussein.

On the run, Hussein enjoyed one final moment of myth: the
ever-resourceful, undaunted resistance fighter. Perhaps, it was thought,
he had it all calculated in advance, fading silently from Baghdad like
the Russians withdrawing from Moscow before Napoleon, to suck in the
Americans only to strike back later on his own terms in a brilliant
guerrilla campaign masterminded by the great one himself.

And then they find him cowering in a hole, disheveled, disoriented and
dishonored. After making those underground tapes exhorting others to
give their blood for Iraq and for him, his instantaneous reaction to
discovery was hands-up surrender.

End of the myth. It is not just that he did not resist the soldiers with
the guns. He did not even resist the medic with the tongue depressor."
--------------------

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
Bill Schnakenberg - 19 Dec 2003 20:43 GMT
> Krauthammer At His Best....
> ------------------------
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>
> Vires et Honor

Sic semper tyrannus
D. Spencer Hines - 19 Dec 2003 11:02 GMT
Indeed....

Except it's:

_Sic Semper Tyrannis_.... [Dative]

Plural ---- All Tyrants ---- Not Just One.....

Cheers,

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

| > Krauthammer At His Best....
| > ------------------------
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
|
| Sic semper tyrannus
Nik Simpson - 19 Dec 2003 20:59 GMT
>> We Americans don't do it that way. Instead, we show Saddam Hussein --
>> King of Kings, Lion of the Tigris, Saladin of the Arabs --
>> compliantly opening his mouth like a child to the universal
>> indignity of an oral (and head lice!) exam. Docility wrapped in
>> banality. Brilliant. Nothing could have been better calculated to
>> demystify the all-powerful tyrant.

I think we should all be thankful that they spared us the video of the
rectal exam ;-)

Signature

Nik Simpson

FF - 20 Dec 2003 00:21 GMT
>>> We Americans don't do it that way. Instead, we show Saddam Hussein --
>>> King of Kings, Lion of the Tigris, Saladin of the Arabs --
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I think we should all be thankful that they spared us the video of the
>rectal exam ;-)

I  think we should be cheered his dad taught him about the proper treatment of
Prisoners of War. Oops! I got it wrong. His dad walked right through the Geneva
Convention and Dubya's doing even better

Did anyone else notice Saddam was drugged?

Liz
William Black - 20 Dec 2003 08:19 GMT
> Did anyone else notice Saddam was drugged?

The BBC

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
MG - 20 Dec 2003 09:04 GMT
> > Did anyone else notice Saddam was drugged?
>
> The BBC

Of course, little Willie gets his news from the Baathist Broadcasting
Corporation. I bet he envies Saddam for the intrusive rectal exam, eh?

Hehehehehehehehe
William Black - 20 Dec 2003 09:09 GMT
> > > Did anyone else notice Saddam was drugged?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Hehehehehehehehe

Do you have a point or are you just making a fool of yourself before a
greater audience than is usual?

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
MG - 20 Dec 2003 09:14 GMT
> > > > Did anyone else notice Saddam was drugged?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> --

Oh good, mah bitch Black is up already. He got no Christmas shopping
to do <wink wink>.

Get ready folks, i.e.. "greater audience", for some pinko ass-kicking.
Julian Richards - 20 Dec 2003 10:57 GMT
>Oh good, mah bitch Black is up already. He got no Christmas shopping
>to do <wink wink>.
>
>Get ready folks, i.e.. "greater audience", for some pinko ass-kicking.

Black a pinko, Gans "Hard Left". The BBC a Muslim terrorist cell.

Hilarious...

Well. Was Saddam drugged?

--

Julian Richards
julian-richards "at" ntlworld.com

"My son has asked for a pair of Nike trainers.
He's ten years old, he should make his own"

"I bought a CD of whale music. Imagine my
disappointment when I got home to discover
that it was actual a cover version by a tribute
band of dolphins"
MG - 20 Dec 2003 12:17 GMT
> >Oh good, mah bitch Black is up already. He got no Christmas shopping
> >to do <wink wink>.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Well. Was Saddam drugged?

Who cares? And why would they drug him anyway?!

Even Saddam knows that if you are going to resist, better resist the
'getting-caught' thing. It's pretty stupid to struggle hard against a
dental look-in, long after being apprehended and shackled. And even if
he did, we'd probably only be shown footage from after he had STOPPED
resisting.

It's in the nature of the Hard Left, incapable of rational thought -
hence leftist - to dream up fanciful theories for the simplest things.
In this case just to stick it to the US - pea-brains thinking people
would be outraged over some alleged mistreatment of Saddam. <snicker>

It ain't working, comrades. It is fun watching their agony, though.

Hilarious!
Julian Richards - 20 Dec 2003 14:38 GMT
>Even Saddam knows that if you are going to resist, better resist the
>'getting-caught' thing. It's pretty stupid to struggle hard against a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>It ain't working, comrades. It is fun watching their agony, though.

If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in contravention of the
Geneva Convention. I can see why they did it but the point is still
true.

It is more likely that the conditions of his transport constituted
some form of sensory deprivation, like the Taliban prisoners, and the
effect left him confused.

--

Julian Richards
julian-richards "at" ntlworld.com

"My son has asked for a pair of Nike trainers.
He's ten years old, he should make his own"

"I bought a CD of whale music. Imagine my
disappointment when I got home to discover
that it was actual a cover version by a tribute
band of dolphins"
MG - 20 Dec 2003 15:29 GMT
> >Even Saddam knows that if you are going to resist, better resist the
> >'getting-caught' thing. It's pretty stupid to struggle hard against a
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> some form of sensory deprivation, like the Taliban prisoners, and the
> effect left him confused.

Sure - confused, disoriented, maybe just tired. I personally didn't
think that sort of behavior was so unusual. Just like anybody, I've
been watching this guy on TV for the past 20 years - mostly Saddam
smiling and shooting a rifle in the air. I guess for many the picture
of a docile hobo being de-loused was too jarring to accept at face
value.

We're talking representativeness heuristic here, whereby we expect
effects to resemble their causes, and instances to resemble the whole.
Being able to find patterns is obviously essential for survival and we
are cognitively wired that way. But sometimes there is no pattern and
we get a false positive. As in expecting Saddam to look ever the
dictator, even in his pajamas.
FF - 21 Dec 2003 00:58 GMT
>Sure - confused, disoriented, maybe just tired. I personally didn't
>think that sort of behavior was so unusual.

Just where do you get off ! When I suggested Saddam had been sedated it wasn't
because of any support for him. It was because he was showing classic signs of
sedation. Or maybe he was blind drunk when they found him! I doubt that, somehow.

Liz
D. Spencer Hines - 20 Dec 2003 15:12 GMT
Twaddle!

Or just very sleepy, disoriented, demoralized, dehydrated, frightened
and exhausted.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

| >Sure - confused, disoriented, maybe just tired. I personally didn't
| >think that sort of behavior was so unusual.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
|
| Liz
Drew Nicholson - 20 Dec 2003 16:47 GMT
> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in contravention of the
> Geneva Convention. I can see why they did it but the point is still
> true.

That's been the norm for the entire "war".

> It is more likely that the conditions of his transport constituted
> some form of sensory deprivation, like the Taliban prisoners, and the
> effect left him confused.

Either way...

--

Drew
History doesn't wait for school to be over.
Paul J Gans - 21 Dec 2003 03:17 GMT
In soc.history.medieval Drew Nicholson <anicholson16@comcast.net> wrote:

>> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in contravention of the
>> Geneva Convention. I can see why they did it but the point is still
>> true.

>That's been the norm for the entire "war".

>> It is more likely that the conditions of his transport constituted
>> some form of sensory deprivation, like the Taliban prisoners, and the
>> effect left him confused.

>Either way...

It has been reported that Saddam will not be "tortured"
but merely subject to sleep deprivation and other minor
indignities such as little or no privacy.

 ---- Paul J. Gans
Sheila J - 21 Dec 2003 05:25 GMT
> In soc.history.medieval Drew Nicholson <anicholson16@comcast.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>   ---- Paul J. Gans

Sounds like being a mother.........
Paul J. Gans - 21 Dec 2003 21:50 GMT
In alt.history.british Sheila J <wolseley@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> In soc.history.medieval Drew Nicholson <anicholson16@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Sounds like being a mother.........

You've got that right.  But being as Saddam never had to
do that, it will be torture...

Just think, if they made him change diapers too he'd complain
to all the humanitarian agencies around -- and likely half would
agree with him

  ---- Paul J. Gans
a.spencer3 - 21 Dec 2003 22:53 GMT
> In alt.history.british Sheila J <wolseley@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> to all the humanitarian agencies around -- and likely half would
> agree with him

That's why I haven't changed my nappies (diapers) in years.

Surreyman
a.spencer3 - 21 Dec 2003 11:47 GMT
> In soc.history.medieval Drew Nicholson <anicholson16@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> but merely subject to sleep deprivation and other minor
> indignities such as little or no privacy.

I saw that his tribe members who were questioned, apparently leading to his
capture, were subjected to 'rigorous interrogation'. I just wonder what that
meant! ..........

Surreyman
Keith Willshaw - 21 Dec 2003 14:44 GMT
> In soc.history.medieval Drew Nicholson <anicholson16@comcast.net> wrote:

> It has been reported that Saddam will not be "tortured"
> but merely subject to sleep deprivation and other minor
> indignities such as little or no privacy.

Siunds like being in the army :)

Keith
raymond o'hara - 20 Dec 2003 23:08 GMT
"Julian Richards" <> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in
contravention of the
> Geneva Convention. I can see why they did it but the point is still
> true.

   a medical exam and delousing is in violation of the geneva convention ,
how so ?
Sheila J - 20 Dec 2003 23:14 GMT
> "Julian Richards" <> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in
> contravention of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>     a medical exam and delousing is in violation of the geneva convention ,
> how so ?

No, but public humiliation of prisoners is specifically forbidden.
Although this may be a bit rich coming from a Saddam lawyer!

Cheers,
Sheila
FF - 21 Dec 2003 00:59 GMT
>"Julian Richards" <> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in
>contravention of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>    a medical exam and delousing is in violation of the geneva convention ,
>how so ?

No, just televising it.

Liz
Michael W Cook - 21 Dec 2003 13:05 GMT
>> "Julian Richards" <> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in
>> contravention of the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Liz

I remember hearing on the BBC that this was not so.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Geneva Convention
deals with protecting the identity of prisoners of war and respecting their
anonymity. Saddam is hardly an 'unknown' person, therefore they can show
him.

However, showing a prisoner being medically examined is a violation, even if
it's just checking his nashers and his head for lice

Cheers

Michael

Michael W Cook

Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
Keith Willshaw - 21 Dec 2003 14:21 GMT
"Michael W Cook" <crusader_productions@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BC0B4ACC.16F94%
> I remember hearing on the BBC that this was not so.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> However, showing a prisoner being medically examined is a violation, even if
> it's just checking his nashers and his head for lice

This is arguable at best. The Geneva Convention actually requires
he be given such an examination under article 31 and the only possible
prohibition against televising it falls under article 3 and is worded thus

'(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and
degrading
treatment'

I didnt see anything in the video that fits that category, indeed literally
thousands
of film clips exist or ordinary sodiers and refugees receiving just
such examinations. Having a cursory medical exam that doesnt involve
disrobing is neither humiliating nor degrading IMHO.

In any event  its far from clear that Saddam deserves POW status.
For one thing he was not captured in uniform and was the nations
leader not merely a combatant. I dont believe we would have granted the
leader of Germany in 1945 POW status and its certain that
the Quislings in charge of the various Nazi puppet regimes
in occupied Europe were not treated as POW's

Keith
D. Spencer Hines - 21 Dec 2003 08:49 GMT
Saddam Hussein, The Butcher of Baghdad, and genocidal maniac has not --
to the best of my knowledge -- been granted POW Status.

He's simply an enemy combatant ---- and a detainee.

Does any pogue or poguette here think Adolf Hitler, if captured alive in
a hole in Bavaria, while Allied soldiers were still being killed on his
orders, would have been granted POW status?

'Nuff Said....

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
William Black - 21 Dec 2003 20:58 GMT
> Saddam Hussein, The Butcher of Baghdad, and genocidal maniac has not --
> to the best of my knowledge -- been granted POW Status.

There is absolutely no doubt that he was a combatant.

There is absolutely no doubt in this case that he is a legal combatant.

He was under arms in his own country and fighting foreigners

Anyone who pretends different is obviously either insane or has a political
point to make.  President Bush has already said he is protected.

He is therefore to be given the full protection of the Geneva Convention and
Hague Accords.

He may later,  if found to be liable by a competent court,  be charged with
criminal offences.

I have no doubt that he's a butcher and a nasty piece of work all around.
If he's guilty of any crime isn't my decision to make,  but I assume he'll
receive a full and free trial just the same as any other person is entitled
to.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government
Paul J. Gans - 22 Dec 2003 19:05 GMT
In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

> There is absolutely no doubt that he was a combatant.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> receive a full and free trial just the same as any other person is entitled
> to.

We all agree to that.  And it is likely that he'll end
up being executed for it too.

While I don't condone the death penalty, that's not the
problem.  The problem is that the trial has to be seen
as fair and proper by the Muslims.  And that is going to
be hard to do.

We could let the provisional government try him.  But if
we do, all sorts of things are going to be brought up that
will embarass Washington and make it seem as if Saddam was
a US puppet for much of his career.  That's not going to
play well in the US, so I doubt it will happen.

But any other course will seem "cooked" to the Arabs,
even turning him over to an international court -- mainly
because those are seen as "western" and it is well known
in the Middle East that a Muslim cannot get a fair trial
in a "western" court.

Little by little there is some realization of this turning
up in US newspapers (TV will never figure it out.)  What
actually happens is going to be very interesting.

   ----- Paul J. Gans
Sheila J - 22 Dec 2003 19:18 GMT
> In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
>     ----- Paul J. Gans

Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.

Sheila
Fred J. McCall - 22 Dec 2003 21:10 GMT
:Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.

Only if the question is "What's the silliest and most ineffectual
thing we could do with Saddam Hussein now that we've caught him."

Signature

"It's always different.  It's always complex.  But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line.  And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
                              -- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

William Black - 22 Dec 2003 21:26 GMT
> :Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.
>
> Only if the question is "What's the silliest and most ineffectual
> thing we could do with Saddam Hussein now that we've caught him."

And what's your alternative?

Stringing him up from the nearest lamp-post isn't going to happen.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government
Fred J. McCall - 22 Dec 2003 21:55 GMT
:> :Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.
:>
:> Only if the question is "What's the silliest and most ineffectual
:> thing we could do with Saddam Hussein now that we've caught him."
:
:And what's your alternative?

I can think of many, all better than that.

:Stringing him up from the nearest lamp-post isn't going to happen.

Perhaps not, but it's one choice.  It's also as likely to happen as
turning him over to the Hague is.

Personally, I prefer the "let Iraq try him" approach, closely followed
by the "Nuremberg approach", where you create a board made up of the
major players on the winning side and try him there.  Britains
obligations with regard to not allow the death penalty probably get in
the way of doing that one right, though.

To riposte in your style, well, patting him on the a.s and letting him
go isn't going to happen.

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

FF - 22 Dec 2003 23:16 GMT
>:Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.
>
>Only if the question is "What's the silliest and most ineffectual
>thing we could do with Saddam Hussein now that we've caught him."

Well, perhaps we should turn him over to the court that tried the Lockerbie bombers,
found them guilty, imprisoned them and ...... eventually ... led to Lybia coming
onside. Same Hague, different court.

If we let the USAans fry him we might as well forget about East -West relations for
the next 50 years at least.

Fred, before you rush to type something stupid, ask your local librarian for
something called an Atlas and study it closely. Then delete anything you type that
has to do with purely internal politics. Then delete anything else you type.

Ever been to another country?

Liz
Fred J. McCall - 23 Dec 2003 02:02 GMT
:>:Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.
:>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:found them guilty, imprisoned them and ...... eventually ... led to Lybia coming
:onside. Same Hague, different court.

Why?  This would be a court staffed by the same countries that screech
about how OIF was an illegal invasion, right?  Yeah, that makes a lot
of sense.

:If we let the USAans fry him we might as well forget about East -West relations for
:the next 50 years at least.

Oh?  Why is that?

:Fred, before you rush to type something stupid,

Well, you already did that.

:ask your local librarian for
:something called an Atlas and study it closely. Then delete anything you type that
:has to do with purely internal politics. Then delete anything else you type.

Yes, this is the liberal idea of 'free speech'.  "Don't talk back to
me.  I know what's best for you."  Sorry, Liz.  Not even close.  I'd
suggest you take your own advice.

:Ever been to another country?

More than you, I would venture, and saw more than you ever would in
the ones I was in.  I wasn't just a silly tourist bint, you see.

Signature

You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
   will never know.

a.spencer3 - 23 Dec 2003 09:17 GMT
> Why?  This would be a court staffed by the same countries that screech
> about how OIF was an illegal invasion, right?  Yeah, that makes a lot
> of sense.

I don't remember the Scottish official view on OIF, do you?

Surreyman
Fred J. McCall - 23 Dec 2003 13:10 GMT
:> Why?  This would be a court staffed by the same countries that screech
:> about how OIF was an illegal invasion, right?  Yeah, that makes a lot
:> of sense.
:>
:I don't remember the Scottish official view on OIF, do you?

Well, Scotland is, generally, politically slightly left of England
(speaking in broad generalities).  Doesn't make it too hard to figure
out.

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

Pierra - 23 Dec 2003 18:25 GMT
And the fact that Regan almost killed him, "we" (globally) intercepted
his WMD components in transit, and the whole thing in Iraq had nothing
to do with it.

I would also stipulate that France, Germany and Russia would not like to
have their transgressions come out in trial  in the Hague - thus some
sort of verdict like "not guilty because there was no crime against us
(F, G, & R)" and thus let him go.

Also, when will the Lockerbie bombers get out (if they're not out already.)

Dick
<snip>

> Well, perhaps we should turn him over to the court that tried the Lockerbie bombers,
> found them guilty, imprisoned them and ...... eventually ... led to Lybia coming
> onside. Same Hague, different court.

<snip>
Brian Sharrock - 23 Dec 2003 22:59 GMT
> >:Turn him over to the Hague. It's the only answer.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> found them guilty, imprisoned them and ...... eventually ... led to Lybia coming
> onside.

You _do_ realise that the 'Lockerbie bombers' were tried by a
Scottish Court don't you? BTW, the legal system operating
in the Kingdom of Scotland is different from that of the rest
of the United Kingdom.
The reason for Scottish jurisprudence was the argument
that the USA-registered aircraft which had been loaded with a
bomb in Frankfurt Germany by Libyans originating their journey
from Malta ... had landed in pieces in Scotland occasioning the
deaths of Scottish people. The court sat in a teeny-weeny part of
the Netherlands which had been ceded to Scotland and is
extra-territorial to The Netherlands. [Let's raise our glasses
to the Dutch!}

>            ...    Same Hague, different court.

Not by any stretch of the imagination! This part of 'Scotland'
just happens to lie south of Hadrian's wall and a bit over to the
east!
Keith Willshaw - 22 Dec 2003 19:55 GMT
> In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We all agree to that.  And it is likely that he'll end
> up being executed for it too.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a US puppet for much of his career.  That's not going to
> play well in the US, so I doubt it will happen.

Trouble is both Bush and Blair have said that is EXACTLY
what is going to happen. I hardly think the present administration
is going to be worried about revelations about previous US
governments. In any event judges in courts are quite free to exclude
testimony that is irrelevant to the charge and any tittle tattle Saddam
may have about meetings with Rumsfeld (for example) 15 years
ago is apt to be ruled non relevant if the charge is the murder of
Iraqi citizens.

In any event it seems rather more likely that those nations
that sold Iraq the bulk of its weapons have more to fear
in this matter. Iraq was never a US puppet, at most the
US passed items of intel to it during the Iran-Iraq war
to prevent an outright victory by a very anti-American Iranian
regime.

The former USSR, China and France on the other hand sold
them billions of dollars worth of weapons, indeed they are
still pressing for payment for some of those items.

Keith
Fred J. McCall - 22 Dec 2003 20:59 GMT
:Little by little there is some realization of this turning
:up in US newspapers (TV will never figure it out.)  What
:actually happens is going to be very interesting.

That's because newspapers are largely run by conservatives.  TV is
largely run by liberals.  You figure out who has a clue quite well
above.  Now if only you understood WHY.

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

FF - 22 Dec 2003 23:20 GMT
>:Little by little there is some realization of this turning
>:up in US newspapers (TV will never figure it out.)  What
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>largely run by liberals.  You figure out who has a clue quite well
>above.  Now if only you understood WHY.

You scarcely have newspapers and your tv news is almost all local and over in 15
seconds. How could you possibly know what's going on in the world from that?

Liz
Fred J. McCall - 23 Dec 2003 02:04 GMT
:>:Little by little there is some realization of this turning
:>:up in US newspapers (TV will never figure it out.)  What
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:You scarcely have newspapers and your tv news is almost all local and over in 15
:seconds. How could you possibly know what's going on in the world from that?

Ok, you've convinced me.  You really ARE this stupid.

What do you do for an encore?

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

Paul J. Gans - 23 Dec 2003 16:08 GMT
In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:

> :Little by little there is some realization of this turning
> :up in US newspapers (TV will never figure it out.)  What
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> largely run by liberals.  You figure out who has a clue quite well
> above.  Now if only you understood WHY.

In my world, neither TV nor the print media has much "liberal"
input.  Most observers would rank CBS, NBC, and ABC as centerist
right.  The others such as FOX are decidedly right wing.

  ---- Paul J. Gans
Pierra - 23 Dec 2003 18:34 GMT
That's because (probably) your politics are on the Left edge of the
Liberal wing - right near the socialist and communist end of the
political spectrum.

Dick

Whats the difference between a socialist and a communist? - A communist
wants it NOW, a socialist is more patient and  willing to wait.

> In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>    ---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J. Gans - 24 Dec 2003 02:41 GMT
In alt.history.british Pierra <pierra@sprynet.com> wrote:

> That's because (probably) your politics are on the Left edge of the
> Liberal wing - right near the socialist and communist end of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Whats the difference between a socialist and a communist? - A communist
> wants it NOW, a socialist is more patient and  willing to wait.

Why do I think that you are posting from the US?  It is
another case of:

 democrat = liberal = pinko = socialist = communist

with the rest of the equation yet to come.

  ---- Paul J. Gans

>> In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>>    ---- Paul J. Gans
ZZBunker - 24 Dec 2003 00:06 GMT
> In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> input.  Most observers would rank CBS, NBC, and ABC as centerist
> right.  The others such as FOX are decidedly right wing.

But, if you noticed yet, The people who run
*Publishing Houses* have NEVER cared what right-wing rag
print media does. Since print media went out of style
the very next day after Gutenburg invented invented it.

And TV went of style the day *before* FOX decided
that Florida is like an opinion worth counting
in the ballot box.
Fred J. McCall - 29 Dec 2003 01:02 GMT
:In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:
:>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:input.  Most observers would rank CBS, NBC, and ABC as centerist
:right.  The others such as FOX are decidedly right wing.

Then your world is very decidedly left of center.

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

D. Spencer Hines - 28 Dec 2003 15:14 GMT
Yes, of course it is ---- skewed far to the Left.

No one can ever reasonably declare that Gans is Fair & Balanced.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

| :In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:
| :>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
|  territory."
|                                       --G. Behn
a.spencer3 - 23 Dec 2003 09:13 GMT
> In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> up in US newspapers (TV will never figure it out.)  What
> actually happens is going to be very interesting.

A trial by some form of Arab court and released?!

Surreyman
JJS - 24 Dec 2003 01:17 GMT
> > In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Surreyman

I like it.  Finally someone comes up with the
answer.  He's tried in an Arab court released and
waiting outside is a long line of men wanting revenge
for those he killed.  He's strung up on the nearest
lamppost and everyone's happy. Surreyman if you
ever run for elected office I'll vote for you. 8^)

Joe
a.spencer3 - 24 Dec 2003 09:10 GMT
> > > In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> lamppost and everyone's happy. Surreyman if you
> ever run for elected office I'll vote for you. 8^)

Well, that's up to 1 now ................

But I was serious. A 'genuine' Arab court - maybe in the UAE - and released
into residence in, maybe, Saudi.

Will be interesting to see if I'm right for a change!

Surreyman
JJS - 26 Dec 2003 21:31 GMT
> > > > In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> But I was serious. A 'genuine' Arab court - maybe in the UAE - and released
> into residence in, maybe, Saudi.

There's just too many people who want revenge.  Maybe
the South of France would take him in? Yea, this way we
could bash perfidious France again.

Seriously is the sense of justice so different in Iraq from
the Western World that they would let Saddam walk out
of a court room a free man? I know there have been other
dictators where this has been the case but they've had to leave
the area if not the continent to escape the revenge of their victims.

Joe

> Will be interesting to see if I'm right for a change!
>
> Surreyman
Michael W Cook - 21 Dec 2003 17:20 GMT
> "Michael W Cook" <crusader_productions@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:BC0B4ACC.16F94%
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Keith

Thank you for that, Keith.

I should imagine Bush is now cursing he opened his big mouth about affording
him full POW status. I think what bugs a lot of people is that Saddam gets
this status, yet there are hundreds locked up in Cuba who don't.

Cheers

Michael

Michael W Cook

Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
Fred J. McCall - 22 Dec 2003 02:46 GMT
:I should imagine Bush is now cursing he opened his big mouth about affording
:him full POW status. I think what bugs a lot of people is that Saddam gets
:this status, yet there are hundreds locked up in Cuba who don't.

I don't believe any Iraqis captured during the war are in Gitmo.  The
Iraqi army, you see, met all the criteria to qualify as POWs
(including Saddam, presumably).  Their current band of loons probably
don't, but you don't take a lot of prisoners after a suicide bombing.

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

Steven James Forsberg - 21 Dec 2003 18:45 GMT
B

: I remember hearing on the BBC that this was not so.

: I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Geneva Convention
: deals with protecting the identity of prisoners of war and respecting their
: anonymity. Saddam is hardly an 'unknown' person, therefore they can show
: him.

: However, showing a prisoner being medically examined is a violation, even if
: it's just checking his nashers and his head for lice

    This is one of those sticky little details that the U.S. has
reversed itself on a couple of times.  The US objected to pictures of US
POWs being questioned on just those grounds.  However, the US likes to use
that kind of photo just as much as the enemy.  The point over being an
"unknown" person is very questionable legally - I don't think it is part of
the treaty text. And recently, in a US legal case, a US Navy pilot lost
a privacy suit because being a navy officer made them "a public figure",
which could lead to the conclusion that U.S. junior officers are just as
liable to be photo'd as Hussein.
    Of course, you can always argue that they are "detainees" and not
priosoners, etc. etc.  On the whole, most involved seemed to think such
photos are one of the more minor violations, if indeed it is a violation.

regards,
---------------------------------------------------
sjforsbe@bayou.uh.edu
Don Aitken - 21 Dec 2003 20:09 GMT
>B
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>priosoners, etc. etc.  On the whole, most involved seemed to think such
>photos are one of the more minor violations, if indeed it is a violation.

The Convention is at http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm. The
relevant provision is in Article 13: "prisoners of war must at all
times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or
intimidation and against insults and public curiosity". Also Article
14: "Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for
their persons and their honour". And, in relation to interrogation,
Article 17: "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of
coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them
information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to
answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant
or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

And, as to the type of custody which may be imposed, Article 21: "The
Detaining Power may subject prisoners of war to internment. It may
impose on them the obligation of not leaving, beyond certain limits,
the camp where they are interned, or if the said camp is fenced in, of
not going outside its perimeter. Subject to the provisions of the
present Convention relative to penal and disciplinary sanctions,
prisoners of war may not be held in close confinement except where
necessary to safeguard their health and then only during the
continuation of the circumstances which make such confinement
necessary."

As to who is a PoW, and who isn't, Article 4 gives an exhaustive
definition, but Article 5 provides that "Should any doubt arise as to
whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen
into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories
enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of
the present Convention until such time as their status has been
determined by a competent tribunal."

It is not easy to find any article of the convention that has not been
systematically violated by the US. This is not really controversial,
or open to argument. Not that that will stop some people.

Signature

Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

Fred J. McCall - 22 Dec 2003 00:32 GMT
:"Julian Richards" <> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in
:contravention of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:    a medical exam and delousing is in violation of the geneva convention ,
:how so ?

Think "the pictures".  I assume that is the proclaimed violation being
screeched to the heavens by the Lefty Liberals.  However, it's only a
violation if you consider the picture ot be of a scene that holds the
object of the photo up to ridicule and such.

Getting his first decent medical treatment since he started hiding in
a hole may not apply as such a situation.

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

FF - 22 Dec 2003 23:24 GMT
>:"Julian Richards" <> If Saddam is a prisoner of war then the US is in
>:contravention of the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Think "the pictures".  I assume that is the proclaimed violation being
>screeched to the heavens by the Lefty Liberals.  

Duh? Who? In our country the Liberal party is scarcely Lefty. Stop being so
parochial, you silly little man.

>However, it's only a
>violation if you consider the picture ot be of a scene that holds the
>object of the photo up to ridicule and such.
>
>Getting his first decent medical treatment since he started hiding in
>a hole may not apply as such a situation.

Liz
William Black - 20 Dec 2003 16:32 GMT
> Oh good, mah bitch Black is up already. He got no Christmas shopping
> to do <wink wink>.

Less of the 'pinko' you vile little gob shite.

I'm a red and proud of it.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
MG - 20 Dec 2003 16:39 GMT
> > Oh good, mah bitch Black is up already. He got no Christmas shopping
> > to do <wink wink>.
>
> Less of the 'pinko' you vile little gob shite.
>
> I'm a red and proud of it.

You're a.shole is red from all the reaming, pounding and bleeding, you
sick f.ck.
William Black - 20 Dec 2003 17:02 GMT
> > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You're a.shole is red from all the reaming, pounding and bleeding, you
> sick f.ck.

Still a vile gob shite then.

Now piss off there's a good troll.

You're dismissed...

Again.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
MG - 20 Dec 2003 17:19 GMT
> > > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Now piss off there's a good troll.

Ah well. I could, but am not going to get into this. 'Tis the season
of goodwill.

So, I apologize for all the insults I've hurled at you. (Whew, that's
a first!)

Live and let live, I say.

Cheers, M
Renia - 20 Dec 2003 17:49 GMT
>>>>"MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> So, I apologize for all the insults I've hurled at you. (Whew, that's
> a first!)

Congratulations! :-)

Renia
William Black - 20 Dec 2003 19:10 GMT
> Ah well. I could, but am not going to get into this. 'Tis the season
> of goodwill.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Live and let live, I say.

Thank you.

Your gracious apology is most humbly accepted.

Now,  how about we actually discuss some history...

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
MG - 20 Dec 2003 19:40 GMT
> > Ah well. I could, but am not going to get into this. 'Tis the season
> > of goodwill.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Now,  how about we actually discuss some history...

William, thank you for being so gracious in return. Indeed, let us
also discuss stuff more in line with the nominal purpose of this
group. :-)

Cheers,  Morris
Sheila J - 20 Dec 2003 19:51 GMT
>>>Ah well. I could, but am not going to get into this. 'Tis the
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Cheers,  Morris

Ah, isn't love grand!  :D  I knew you both had it in you!
FF - 21 Dec 2003 01:01 GMT
>> > > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>Cheers, M

Back on the little green pills at last? Whew! We're so glad to hear it.

Liz
raymond o'hara - 20 Dec 2003 23:09 GMT
> > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You're a.shole is red from all the reaming, pounding and bleeding, you
> sick f.ck.

 you cetainly have an odd fixation with anal sex . if anyone here is into
sick f.cking i'd say it was you .
MG - 20 Dec 2003 23:14 GMT
> > > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>   you cetainly have an odd fixation with anal sex . if anyone here is into
> sick f.cking i'd say it was you .

It's water under the bridge now between William and me.

But just as a matter of interest, when you think of a 'better' insult,
let me know.
raymond o'hara - 21 Dec 2003 00:23 GMT
> > > > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> But just as a matter of interest, when you think of a 'better' insult,
> let me know.

my post had nothing to do with black . it addressed your obvious preversion
.

you seem to think accusing people is of your deviant behavoir appropriate
behavoir ,your lame appology not withstanding .
Paul J Gans - 21 Dec 2003 22:32 GMT
In soc.history.medieval raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote:

>> > > > "MG" <morrisg4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:bs13t2$n8n$1@online.de...
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>> But just as a matter of interest, when you think of a 'better' insult,
>> let me know.

> my post had nothing to do with black . it addressed your obvious preversion
>.

>you seem to think accusing people is of your deviant behavoir appropriate
>behavoir ,your lame appology not withstanding .

I'd like to remind everyone that your deviant behavior is
not necessarily anyone else's deviant behavior.

For example, some people read books, no matter what the
majority thinks.

  ---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans - 21 Dec 2003 03:13 GMT
In soc.history.medieval William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Oh good, mah bitch Black is up already. He got no Christmas shopping
>> to do <wink wink>.

>Less of the 'pinko' you vile little gob shite.

>I'm a red and proud of it.

He doesn't have a clue as to what you mean.

  ---- Paul J. Gans
MG - 21 Dec 2003 08:57 GMT
> In soc.history.medieval William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>    ---- Paul J. Gans

See how you obfuscate, Gans? Typical. I never commented on  William's
"I'm a red.." in political terms, Hines did. I just took it as a cue
for the next flame.

Anyway, 'red' could mean any number of things. Some team allegiance
perhaps, ManU., etc. Can't accuse me of misunderstanding an insider
joke when I didn't even comment on it.
John Cartmell - 21 Dec 2003 10:42 GMT
> Anyway, 'red' could mean any number of things. Some team allegiance
> perhaps, ManU., etc.

In which case I'm allowed to make *very* rude comments to him!  ;-)

Signature

    John Cartmell    john@ followed by finnybank.com    FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527
    Qercus magazine & FD Games    www.finnybank.com  www.acornuser.com
Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines

William Black - 21 Dec 2003 12:38 GMT
> > Anyway, 'red' could mean any number of things. Some team allegiance
> > perhaps, ManU., etc.
>
> In which case I'm allowed to make *very* rude comments to him!  ;-)

I'm sorry,  I don't follow snooker...

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
Fred J. McCall - 21 Dec 2003 22:09 GMT
:I  think we should be cheered his dad taught him about the proper treatment of
:Prisoners of War. Oops! I got it wrong. His dad walked right through the Geneva
:Convention and Dubya's doing even better

Point to a violation.  A real one, not the usual imagined ones.  We've
been through that in depth around here already.

:Did anyone else notice Saddam was drugged?

Oh, you can NOTICE that in a TV picture now?  And here all this time I
thought it took some sort of test.

[He's just been dragged out of a hole, captured, and subjected to lots
of bright lights and questions.  That's not drugs; that's 'deer in the
headlights'.]

Signature

"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
                                     --G. Behn

Drew Nicholson - 21 Dec 2003 23:12 GMT
>> I  think we should be cheered his dad taught him about the proper
>> treatment of Prisoners of War. Oops! I got it wrong. His dad walked
>> right through the Geneva Convention and Dubya's doing even better
>
> Point to a violation.  A real one, not the usual imagined ones.  We've
> been through that in depth around here already.

There was an American colonel who fired his sidearm in an attempt to
intimidate an Iraqi prisoner into telling him about the next insurgent
attack in Iraq.

That is a technical violation of the conventions.

--

Drew
History doesn't wait for school to be over.
a.spencer3 - 22 Dec 2003 08:46 GMT
>> There was an American colonel who fired his sidearm in an attempt to
> intimidate an Iraqi prisoner into telling him about the next insurgent
> attack in Iraq.
>
> That is a technical violation of the conventions.

Join the real war even if you (and I) didn't want to be there. We are there
and. frankly, there are times when one turns one's back, especially for such
a minor infringement.

Surreyman
Duke of URL - 22 Dec 2003 14:04 GMT
>>> There was an American colonel who fired his sidearm in an attempt
>>> to intimidate an Iraqi prisoner into telling him about the next
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> are there and. frankly, there are times when one turns one's back,
> especially for such a minor infringement.

However, the US Army did NOT "turn its back" even for such a minor
thing. And one that I concur with totally - Way back when I was taught
to conduct interrogations, I was told to use all sorts of tricks that
would unsettle the prisoner without actually doing any harm to him.
In this case, Lt Col West got needed field intel out of a hostile,
saving his unit from harm.
Didn't matter. He's been forced to retire and been fined $5000.
a.spencer3 - 22 Dec 2003 14:58 GMT
> >>> There was an American colonel who fired his sidearm in an attempt
> >>> to intimidate an Iraqi prisoner into telling him about the next
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> saving his unit from harm.
> Didn't matter. He's been forced to retire and been fined $5000.

Well, jolly good show, I hope you're really proud of your ethics..
I was taught to have more loyalty for my troops, and knew I could expect it
from my superiors (other than for meaningful infringments, of course).
Such an incident would probably not even have been reported - or indeed
hardly noticed.
If you try to run your troops on paperwork they could get torn up.

Surreyman
Duke of URL - 22 Dec 2003 16:29 GMT
>> In news:GbyFb.68$Eu.84852@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net,
>> a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> radiated into the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>
> Well, jolly good show, I hope you're really proud of your ethics..

??? "My" ethics? Are you somehow under the impression that I
personally was involved in the decision? Afraid you're totally wrong.

> I was taught to have more loyalty for my troops, and knew I could
> expect it from my superiors (other than for meaningful
> infringments, of course). Such an incident would probably not even
> have been reported - or indeed hardly noticed.
> If you try to run your troops on paperwork they could get torn up.

Perhaps you don't understand what it means when someone says they
concur totally with an action. Let me rephrase it in smaller words: I
like LtCol West; I think he was right; I would have done the same
thing. There - does that soak in?
a.spencer3 - 22 Dec 2003 17:04 GMT
> >> In news:GbyFb.68$Eu.84852@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net,
> >> a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> radiated into the
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> like LtCol West; I think he was right; I would have done the same
> thing. There - does that soak in?

From your phraseology you appeared to concur with the US Army.
Instead, we appear to agree. So no problem.
If I was at all responsible for West I would be feeling very ashamed.
(I'll be moving up to 5-letter words shortly) :-))

Surreyman
Rich Johnson - 22 Dec 2003 20:14 GMT
>>> In news:GbyFb.68$Eu.84852@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net,
>>> a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> radiated into the
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> like LtCol West; I think he was right; I would have done the same
> thing. There - does that soak in?

It took me a couple of tries to figure out (inn your original post) that
you were supporting the actions of LtCol West.

I admire his desire to protect his people from harm, but I would worry that
the next time he may have gone further nd injured or killed a prisoner who
was in his custody. A hard one to call IMHO.

Signature

Rich
Enfield NS
Canada

Steven James Forsberg - 22 Dec 2003 17:12 GMT
:> However, the US Army did NOT "turn its back" even for such a minor
:> thing. And one that I concur with totally - Way back when I was taught
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: hardly noticed.
: If you try to run your troops on paperwork they could get torn up.

    Hmmm. Here in the U.S. your loyalty is supposed to be to your
nation and to following lawful orders -- like the ones that prohibit such
acts. Once you start making *personal* decisions about what constitutes
a "meaningful infringment" you start down the path of totally narcistic
behavior (i.e. troops believing "it's all about me/us").  Beating a
prisoner, and subjecting them to mock executions, are felony level crimes
that are certainly "meaningful" infringements, and the fact that a senior
officer was sacked (despite a bit of public clamor in his support)
demonstrates how meaningful an infringement that was.

regards,
-----------------------------------------
sjforsbe@bayou.uh.edu
Michael W Cook - 22 Dec 2003 18:19 GMT
> Hmmm. Here in the U.S. your loyalty is supposed to be to your
> nation and to following lawful orders -- like the ones that prohibit such
> acts.

Does that loyalty include invading a sovereign nation, when that nation is
over the other side of the world and it's neither a threat to you or it's
neighbours ?

Indeed, such acts are prohibited under international law.

Or were until Bush and Blair decided to rip it up.

MWC
Keith Willshaw - 22 Dec 2003 19:43 GMT
> Does that loyalty include invading a sovereign nation, when that nation is
> over the other side of the world and it's neither a threat to you or it's
> neighbours ?

The neighbours disagreed, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia provided basing
and thats hardly a surprise since both Kuwait and Iran had been invaded
by this 'unthreatening' sovereign nation.

The UN disagreed too, it had auhorised sanctions and weapons inspections
against this 'harmless' state.

Indeed this poor blameless government had only started a couple
of wars in this last 2 decades and had only killed a million or so
people.

Sheesh

Keith
Paul J Gans - 23 Dec 2003 04:16 GMT
In soc.history.medieval Keith Willshaw <keithspam@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> Does that loyalty include invading a sovereign nation, when that nation is
>> over the other side of the world and it's neither a threat to you or it's
>> neighbours ?

>The neighbours disagreed, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia provided basing
>and thats hardly a surprise since both Kuwait and Iran had been invaded
>by this 'unthreatening' sovereign nation.

I don't think this is true.  Saudi Arabia actually refused
to do just this which contributed to the port mess in Kuwait.
They also forbade overflights.  They did allow a US observation
base to remain.

>The UN disagreed too, it had auhorised sanctions and weapons inspections
>against this 'harmless' state.

That does not justify an invasion.  It is not up to the US
to unilateraly decide that it is going to go beyond what the
UN would authorize.

And of course, it turned out that the UN and the US were
wrong about the threat.  Iraq was a bankrupt collapsing
state with an army that mainly went home and filled with
military equipment that had rusted out.

>Indeed this poor blameless government had only started a couple
>of wars in this last 2 decades and had only killed a million or so
>people.

>Sheesh

The first war, against Iran, was carried out with full US
support.  We supplied intelligence and gave the Iraqis
access to weapons markets.  We even supplied them with
disease cultures that could be used for bioweapons.
Oh yes, the President was a guy named Reagan and his
main envoy to Saddam was some politico named Rumsfeld.

This is not my invention.  It is all on the record and
you can Google for it.

The US was given a chance to veto the war against Kuwait
when Saddam approached April Gillespie, the US Ambassador
to Iraq.  He told her what he was going to do and she
did not tell him that the US would be very unhappy if
he did.  Thus encouraged by his good friend, the US,
who had supported him through thick and thin, he went
into Kuwait only to find that the then President, a
guy named Bush, had changed his mind.

  ----- Paul J. Gans
Fred J. McCall - 23 Dec 2003 05:24 GMT
:That does not justify an invasion.  It is not up to the US
:to unilateraly decide that it is going to go beyond what the
:UN would authorize.

Of course it is.  Just as it is up to every other country.

:And of course, it turned out that the UN and the US were
:wrong about the threat.  Iraq was a bankrupt collapsing
:state with an army that mainly went home and filled with
:military equipment that had rusted out.

Nothing like stretching the truth just a bit to try to make your case
look better, is there?

:The first war, against Iran, was carried out with full US
:support.  We supplied intelligence and gave the Iraqis
:access to weapons markets.  

"Gave the Iraqis access"?  What planet are you living on?  The US has
command authority over the world trade in armaments now?  Odd how they
wound up with almost all Russian and French arms rather than US, then,
wouldn't you say?

:We even supplied them with
:disease cultures that could be used for bioweapons.

Liar.

:Oh yes, the President was a guy named Reagan and his
:main envoy to Saddam was some politico named Rumsfeld.
:
:This is not my invention.  It is all on the record and
:you can Google for it.

Yes, and your lot tried the same ploy over Osama bin Laden.  It didn't
work then and you haven't learned a thing.

:The US was given a chance to veto the war against Kuwait
:when Saddam approached April Gillespie, the US Ambassador
:to Iraq.  

You can't even get her name right.  Why should anyone believe your
distortions of the events?

:He told her what he was going to do

Lie.

:and she
:did not tell him that the US would be very unhappy if
:he did.  Thus encouraged by his good friend, the US,
:who had supported him through thick and thin, he went
:into Kuwait only to find that the then President, a
:guy named Bush, had changed his mind.

Lie.

Do Democrats really believe that the way to convince people is to try
to sell them lies?  If you can't make your position with the truth
(and apparently know that, or you wouldn't be lying), how do you
expect anyone to believe anything you say, even should you say
something true?

You know, this really demonstrates what's been wrong with Democratic
political tactics for a while.  You're very good at motivating the
faithful, who want to believe all your lies.  However, such untruths
are not particularly good at convincing anyone who doesn't already
agree with you - and you can't win with 23% of the voting public, no
matter how fervent their belief.  So you essentially lose by default
because you can't even recognize which issues might have some traction
and which will not.

Signature

You are
What you do
When it counts.

Michael W Cook - 23 Dec 2003 15:23 GMT
>> Does that loyalty include invading a sovereign nation, when that nation is
>> over the other side of the world and it's neither a threat to you or it's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and thats hardly a surprise since both Kuwait and Iran had been invaded
> by this 'unthreatening' sovereign nation.

That's why some countriies had resumed flights with Baghdad is it ?
That's why their borders had been re-opened was it ?

Because Saddam was such a threat.

Since Gulf War I Saddam was going nowhere, even the Bush administration when
they first took office said as much. Then the neo-Con agenda kicked in after
911, and it was all systems go.

It's on the record................

Saddam was NO LONGER considered a threat.

> The UN disagreed too, it had auhorised sanctions and weapons inspections
> against this 'harmless' state.

Sanctions which were pushed primarily by the US, but the UN didn't agree to
an invasion, in fact the majority were against it.

The UN also found f.ck-all WMD, and neither have the US even with complete
control of the country.

We were lied to and a lot of people have died because of these lies.

> Indeed this poor blameless government had only started a couple
> of wars in this last 2 decades and had only killed a million or so
> people.

How many wars and deaths have US policy been responsible for ?

One million, two million or double that amount ?

But that's OK I suppose, because it's all in the name of democracy.

Yeah right.

MWC
Neville Lindsay - 24 Dec 2003 02:12 GMT
> >> Does that loyalty include invading a sovereign nation, when that nation is
> >> over the other side of the world and it's neither a threat to you or it's
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Saddam was NO LONGER considered a threat.

Which is why the US and UK maintained no-fly zones over Iraq, and the Gulf
states and Iran were very happy indeed to see Saddam go, and were either
active or passive supporters.

NL
Drew Nicholson - 24 Dec 2003 03:33 GMT
>>>> Does that loyalty include invading a sovereign nation, when that
>>>> nation is over the other side of the world and it's neither a
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> NL

Nellie doesn't understand the power of the military industrial complex.

--

Drew
History doesn't wait for school to be over.