Vietnam & Iraq
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D. Spencer Hines - 12 May 2007 22:19 GMT Spot On!...
As I have pointed out many times before.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas ----------------------------------------------------
Dave Bristol of the UK: "What were the lessons of Vietnam from your perspective?"
Here is what we know:
The U.S. never lost a battle in Vietnam.
The North Vietnamese knew they could not defeat he U.S.' military. Their only hope was to use the U.S. media, and radicals within to cause the U.S. to retreat.
U.S. citizens believed the media, primarily Uncle Walter on CBS, so we did the dishonorable thing, leaving our allies to die.
Our allies were killed in battle, those not fighting were murdered later.
The enemy then went into Cambodia and Laos, murdering millions (there really are "killing fields" where people were lined up and murdered).
Jane Fonda and John Kerry celebrated. Returning U.S. military were spat upon.
Despite that, the US and UK still have honorable men and women, sacrificing for the Iraqis, the UK, the US and even thankless people who strangely think that freedom is our natural state, and does not have to defended, or fought for, people thinking they'll be exempt from terrorism.
John Adams, San Diego, USA/California
Ray O'Hara - 12 May 2007 22:56 GMT > Spot On!... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > only hope was to use the U.S. media, and radicals within to cause the U.S. > to retreat. the same revisionist bullshit we've seen before.
the "never lost a battle" line misrepresents the situation. tactical cleverness doesn't win wars. the fact is, the u.s.army was never able to prevent the enemy striking when and where he wanted too. as the great derek sanderson so aptly put it "it's not how many you win it's how many you show up for"
the press merely reported and the regular people{not the radicals} noticed after 10 years the war was still at the same point it was when it started.
you and your ilk sound like the nazies in the 30s with their "stabbed in the back" theory on why the germans lost WWI. it wasn't true then , its not true about viet nam and it isn't true in iraq.
"war is politics by other means" carl von clauswitz
Martin - 12 May 2007 23:40 GMT > Spot On!... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > The U.S. never lost a battle in Vietnam. Hmmm... I'll accept that. In fact, they won a few.
They did however lose the war, as the Communists took the south and ended up in power. Saigon is now Ho Chi Min City, and that is a fact. Now, there are two ways of looking at that - either the US (who sacrificed 50,000 odd men in the conflict) were militarily defeated by the NVA, or they deserted their allies and ran for it.
No disrespect to all those Americans who fought, suffered and died there (something you missed out on I believe Spency?), those are the facts. They might have won had they not been let down by inept politicians, though what they would have really 'won' is a moot point - a poisonous, uninhabitable wasteland (assuming the fighting had finished by now). They didn't Game over David.
It is no shame to lose now and then, we British appreciate that very well. It is however shameful to deny it. Cheers Martin
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 14 May 2007 04:51 GMT > It is no shame to lose now and then, we British appreciate that very well. > It is however shameful to deny it. A concept they will *never* understand. Some have even managed to twist the disaster in Vietnam into some kind of US 'victory' in their deluded minds. Seems not playing to the US script and turning up for suicidal 'battles' against vastly superior weaponry is somehow 'cheating' and means the Vietnamese 'lost'. Hilarious. And they havn't learned a thing from it - as the latest disasterous defeat in Iraq clearly shows.
Doug - 12 May 2007 23:58 GMT Um, which wars, exactly, have you fought in DSH? A war which drags on 10 years and accomplishes nothing but enriching the defense industry and killing, maiming and wounding 10's of thousands of US troops isn't much of a victory and retards like you and your buddy Dave Bristol would have us fight it for another 10 years before figuring out it's a lost cause.
> Spot On!... > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > John Adams, San Diego, USA/California Tiglath - 13 May 2007 17:34 GMT > Despite that, the US and UK still have honorable men and women, > sacrificing for the Iraqis. Anyone suggesting that we are in Iraq for the Iraqis insults the intelligence of his audience and deserves none.
The humanitarian justification for this blunder died long ago, and unlike Lazarus, won't rise again.
James Beck - 15 May 2007 06:02 GMT >> Despite that, the US and UK still have honorable men and women, >> sacrificing for the Iraqis. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The humanitarian justification for this blunder died long ago, and unlike >Lazarus, won't rise again. On the contrary, by comparison to the putative geopolitical advantage, the humanitarian argument was and is far more compelling. Assuming that the Iraqi body count you posted earlier is correct, the rate of excess death is currently running at about 1/5th of its level prior to the invasion. If that argument is intended to be humanitarian, you are on the wrong side.
Over 1996 up to the invasion, the Iraqis were permitted to export oil at roughly their historical maximum capacity. They were unable to both service their external debt and feed their population at the price of oil prevailing over that period. Further, Iraq's crop yield per hectare declined about 25% over 1980 through 2000. Syria and Iran are both deep in the yellow-zone environmentally, as is Pakistan. Iraq and Afghanistan are both in the red-zone, of course, and have been for some time. Iraq has been in deep trouble longer--the war with Iran was a calamity, as was Saddam's decision to drain the swamps. Iraq was borrowing to buy food as early as 1983.
The fundamental issues are relatively straightforward. Iraq is overpopulated relative to its declining food supply at its prevailing level of external debt. As the societies begin to starve, their governments become progressively dictatorial and outwardly hostile. That diverts attention from problems that are of their population's own making.
After an attempt to nationalize a large fraction of its external government debt by invading Kuwait and threatening Saudi Arabia, the Hussein government was driven back into its own borders and was, to some extent contained. Forcing the population to deal with its own problems internally led to an estimated 1.8 million deaths and widespread starvation.
The highest average daily calories I have found reported was about 2,030 calories per day, which amounts to slow starvation (the UN recommends 2,100 calories per day). There was substantial variation in the average along the way. For example, following the bombings in 1991, the daily average fell to about 750. Over 1991-1995 it rose to about 2,268. By August 1995, it had fallen back to about 1,000 calories per day. It gradually rose from there. OTOH, I haven't seen the UN report out the standard deviation, but these are somewhat difficult to apply in any event because the matching measures of age/height/body weight are crude. Even so, we can form rough estimates from the data. At an average of 1,000 calories per day (1995) about 69% of Iraqi children were malnourished: 28% stunted; 29% general malnutrition; 12% acute malnutrition. At an average of 2,030 calories per day (1997-1998), about 34.7% of children were malnourished: 11.7% stunted; 14.7% general malnutrition; 8.3% acute malnutrition. At the same time, about 25% of adult males and 16% of adult females were malnourished.
From the standpoint of humanitarian action, in the short run, the current policy of intervening in the genocide that was being conducted by the Hussein government is appealing in some ways. Over the long term, the case is less clear. It might be more humane in the long term to let nature take care of the overpopulation problem. OTOH, whether the US policy toward genocide in other countries is neglect, as in Rwanda, Somalia, and Sudan, or intervention, as in Iraq, the US will be blamed. None of the choices are/were terribly appealing, at least two (neglect and blockade) had already been tried.
During his period in office, President Reagan primarily chose neglect. That had the advantage of passivity and low cost, but it likely made the ultimate problems far worse than they might have been and it amounts to slow taking the slow road to genocide. His strategy mirrored that of most of the European countries (France continued to support the Sunni minority).
Although the deteriorating situation in Iraq was almost entirely ignored, the US did provide Iraq some loan guarantees to buy food. At the time Iraq defaulted on their food loans (just prior to Gulf War part I), they totaled US$2.19 billion. US commercial interests loaned Iraq an additional US$400 million.Contrary to a lot of negative press, the US did not directly loan Iraq anything to finance its war with Iran, and provided a rather small amount in loan guarantees (not loans) for food. Based on the 2005 valuation of Iraq's external debt (about US$350 billion (2003 est), including US$125 billion in conventional foreign debt), between them, the US and UK accounted for less than 1% of the total. In case you're wondering, during the Iraq/Iran war, US arms sales to Iraq totaled $200 million, i.e. almost nothing. For purposes of comparison, Iraq owes Saudi Arabia and Kuwait some US$30 billion and US$27 billion, respectively in conventional foreign debt alone. Iraq had a strong incentive to invade its neighbors to avoid paying them back.
If encouraging people to solve their own problems internally fails, the next round of choices is always bleak. In Iraq's case, the population nearly doubled while environmental destruction worsened and food production declined. Insufficiently high oil prices then triggered the crisis. Whether the US stays or goes, those problems remain.
Iraq has significant problems. Although satellite imagery indicates that the UN's environmental project has succeeded in restoring about 1/2 of the wetlands Saddam ordered to be drained, reclamation of the other half will be both time consuming and increasingly difficult/costly as the area expands. In addition, at about US$7-10 billion and about 10 years each, Iraq's 3-5 Superfund sites will need to be cleaned up before it will be possible to stabilize the water supply. Also, only a fraction of Iraq's agricultural problems are solvable in Auroville fashion (a combination of reforestation and sustainable agriculture). Again, it's a minimum 15-year commitment.
Worse, Iraq's biggest problems are due to salinization. It is possible to reverse the damage, but it's extremely expensive and very long-term--roughly 75 years if the salt as not reached the water table and as much as 500 years if it has. We know that at least some of the land is, for practical purposes, permanently contaminated by salt in the water table because salt water is degrading the oil fields; however, some of the salinated land may be reclaimable sooner depending on the salt concentration and what crops are planted (food plants are variably salt-tolerant). Even so, 10-15 years is probably optimistic given the current population. Our expectation should be that Iraq will need to import much of its food for the foreseeable future. On the plus side, due to technological issues, Iraq may be using as little as 50% of its arable land, so there is some hope for a significant agricultural expansion under certain conditions.
Saddam spent more than a decade at war, projecting his national problems outward instead of attempting to solve them internally. In response, Bush Sr chose a policy of blockade/containment. That had the advantage of forcing the issue. Among other things, it placed the immediate blame for the resulting death rate on Saddam's government. Unfortunately, in the face of world opinion, blockade/containment is evidently unsustainable against a country with a valuable strategic resource. Although containment worked reasonably well against the USSR during the Cold War despite the horrific death rate, given that Western Europe is now in thrall to Russian energy supplies and other raw materials, a similar strategy would likely fail today. There's still a reasonably good chance that it would succeed against North Korea. Pakistan, the Philippines and Indonesia are iffy. Iran's probably a no-go.
In the end, the blame for Iraq's death rate under the sanctions stuck to the US anyway, and in much the same way as the genocides in Somalia, Rwanda, and currently Darfur, have done. Had it been the case that the world could afford a protracted blow up in Iraq, it is hard to imagine the US being willing to intervene in any significant military way. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. During the Iran-Iraq war, Iraqi oil production declined by about two-thirds. Permitting that to occur again is not practical for the global economy. With estimates of oil demand over the next 15 years suggesting a need to add the equivalent of four Saudi Arabias to global supply, that is particularly true under the existing circumstances.
In any event, reverting to a policy of neglect there would likely have had serious consequences. Among them millions more Iraqis would likely have died. Saddam would probably have repudiated his external debt to everyone but his arms suppliers. That would have put him in a position to re-arm, and threaten the region again, very likely this time with nuclear weapons following a path similar to that taken by North Korea, another unstable environmental hotspot. On the plus side, the direct immediate cost would have been low and we could always try to say "Who me?" when the situation went to hell. Of course, that didn't work the last time, so there was no real reason to think it would work any better this time.
I have touched on Iraq's debt situation a bit before, but with players like Allawi touting the "success story" of debt forgiveness, it is probably worthwhile to look again.
Following the US intervention, the US and UK pressed for renegotiation of Iraq's external debt. Because they were very small creditors, i.e. had stuck to the moral high ground in the first place, this led to widespread complaints that the US wanted to spend other people's money. Translation: no one else has been very forgiving (not a surprise, since most of them have debt problems of their own). Of the original US$350 billion owed, the Paris Club countries forgave about US$17 billion (80% of what they were owed), leaving US$333 billion owed. Of that, $25 billion was owed for adjudicated Gulf War I obligations, to be serviced with 25% of Iraq's oil revenues. That obligation should have been satisfied at the end of 2006, or so. That leaves roughly US$308 billion owed. Assuming debt service at 6% per annum , Iraq's annual outflow for debt service alone would be about US$18.4 billion.
It's difficult to assess whether 6% is a reasonable estimate. Once negotiations on debt forgiveness foundered, proposals circulated to decrease the interest on the debts to that level. Given the risk, that level would be unusually low, and the data is sparse. Iraq's annual debt service may in fact be much higher.
However, it does jive with the publicly available information under some assumptions. Assuming that oil's share of the Iraqi economy has fallen from 85% of GDP to about 50% of GDP, constant imports at 2003 levels (US$7.8 billion) and an oil price of US$60 per barrel (the current OPEC target), with 27 million Iraqis, that implies a per capita income of US$882.16, US$1,193.85 (US$1,188 actual), US$1,779.68, and US$2,825.11 over 2004 through 2007 (forecast), respectively. Assuming that Iraq serviced its debt, that would have been true regardless of what the US did, and even that rosy scenario assumes that Iraq spends nothing to correct its environmental problems, and the US stays. Any illusion the Iraqis may have had of greater prosperity was just that, an illusion. The Hussein government and Iraqi industry borrowed a great deal of money that the rest of the world wants paid back. [These GDP numbers lump the usual war time black markets euphemistically in with 'economic diversification', but the numbers work out pretty close to estimates of the actual income per capita.]
If the weapons and money didn't come from the US and UK, one might wonder where they did come from. SIPRIs estimates of the distribution of Iraq's arms supplies for 1980-82 are: USSR and Warsaw Pact - 68.5%; France - 20.6%; China - 2.7%; Egypt - 1.6%; US - 0%; All others - 6.6%. For 1983-1988 the numbers are similar: USSR and Warsaw Pact - 57.8%; France - 13.2%; China - 20.5%; Egypt - 1.6%; US - 0.8%; All others - 6.0%. As for Iraq's conventional foreign loans, about 19% came from the USSR/Warsaw Pact/Russia/China/France. Western Europe, Canada, Australia and Japan kicked in another 13%, and about 65% came from the Middle East and Africa.
Prior to the current mess, the menu of options was very bleak. Sanctions failed to achieve the desired result, and were coming apart anyway. The death rate was too slow to get the population back into balance, but unacceptably high from the standpoint of global spin. Blockade having failed, there were two main choices, ignore or invade. From one point of view, the former is more or less equivalent to letting Russia, and China get back into the business of destabilizing the region to strengthen their own strategic interests.
Although invasion was a bad choice, it was probably not the worst choice and it had certain advantages. Among them, you get rid of Saddam and guarantee some sort of longish-term presence to blunt the destabilizing influence of the Russians, and Chinese. Also, using Iraq's external debt as leverage, you force Iraq under the yoke of the IMF. By forcing the privatization of Iraq's oil resource, you permanently weaken any future Iraqi government. Disbanding the military has much the same effect. It also puts you in a position to begin to correct the fundamental problem, i.e., environmental degradation/food supply. Also, as your own numbers suggest, the excess death rate among Iraqis has fallen very sharply. In spite of popular and sometimes well-deserved criticism, this has in fact been a cakewalk as these things go.
To the extent that we can read the future, I think the scenarios for the Iraqis darken the sooner the US pulls out. An economic baseline may be useful:
In 2002, the average nominal price of a barrel of oil was US$22.51. That price level reflected a shallow US economic slowdown. Iraq's production was about 738 million barrels that year. That gave them income of US$19.5 billion. Assuming that Iraq services their debt, that would only leave about US$1.1 billion available to feed, clothe and house their population--not nearly enough.
Assuming a per capita subsistence of 2,100 calories per day consisting of the UN's recommended food bundle is available at US$0.40 per day per person, and a non-food survival allocation of US$0.60 per person per day, basic subsistence for Iraq's population would be about US$10 billion for 2007. In other words, at more normal oil price levels, Iraq cannot both service its debt and feed, clothe and house its population, much less allocate US$30 billion to repair its Superfund-equivalent sites, or begin the process of repairing the damage to its agricultural lands. The World Bank estimates the annual cost of that effort at a minimum of US$3.6 billion per year, of which only US$2.4 million was available in the 2004 budget, with oil prices at US$40 per barrel.
With oil prices at US$60 (the Saudi target price), Iraq currently has a surplus. Anticipating either that the current price level will be maintained once the US leaves Iraq, or that Iraq will be able to maintain its current level of production during a civil war is at best speculative and at worst, dangerous. In 1980, Iraq's per capita GDP was roughly US$4,200, so it's really not surprising that there's widespread dissatisfaction, but the situation will likely be far worse if the US abandons Iraq to its advancing civil war. Wartime oil production in Iraq is significantly lower (less than half) than peacetime production, and the Sunni, who have no oil themselves, have a strong incentive to disrupt oil production that benefits the Shia and Kurds. That effort would probably be aided by the Saudis and perhaps, the French.
Assuming that Iraq is able to maintain its historical wartime average oil production of 332,287,631 barrels per year (about a third of current production), the Saudis maintain their price target of $60 per barrel, Iraq makes its debt service payments and imports are held constant, Iraq's per capita GDP projection of US$2,825.11 in 2007 falls to US$506.46. Again, that assumes that Iraq spends nothing to correct it's environmental problems, and the civil war does nothing to make the existing problems worse. Neither is likely.
[In addition, the assumption that OPEC could maintain a per barrel price target of US$60 is rather shaky. When the US withdraws, downward wartime pressure on the dollar will end. If the US economy continues to grow more rapidly than those in Europe and Japan (highly likely given the demographics), the dollar will rise and the price of oil should decline.]
The scenarios deteriorate from there. At the moment, oil prices are high, and Iraq's production is running near its peacetime average. The US, Canada, and the UN are doing environmental reconstruction. Iraq is making its debt service payments. If the US, Europe, or China has a recession, the price of oil will decline sharply, perhaps back to the $15 range. At that level, Iraq can barely feed, clothe and house its people. Debt service payments fall to zero. That would destabilize the economies of Russia, China, and the former Warsaw Pact nations, the rest of the Middle East excluding Iran, and possibly trigger a worldwide recession, but things are still not as horrific as they might be (perhaps 350,000 excess Iraqi dead per year). One step further down: Iraq's oil production falls to its wartime low of 111,325,000 barrels. At that level of production, if there's a recession in the US, China, and/or Europe and the price of oil falls to US$15/barrel, Iraq cannot feed itself. Keep in mind that that was the price level in the mid-1990s and, even with a strong-arm government there were more than 1.8 million excess deaths. Expect full-scale civil war and genocide. Refugees flood across the borders into Iran, Syria. Both have growing environmental problems of their own and neither has much surplus food. Syria and Jordan already have 2 million Iraqi refugees that they can't afford to feed living in camps. Both Iran and Syria are in danger of tumbling down the same cliff as Iraq.
Like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia have each experienced declining per capita GDP as their population growth rates have exceeded the growth rate in their real GDP, and neighboring Turkey is already plagued with problems from the Kurds. At that point, you are in danger of a wider regional or perhaps (with probability too low to be anything but alarmist) a world war. I would guess maybe 4-7 million Iraqi dead plus a potential for wider conflict. On the plus side, that would get Iraq's population back in line with the current food supply. As far as I can see, as bad as it might get, the best case scenario (for Iraq) by far occurs if the US stays, though it would be better still if the UN went in, and there's no perfect solution either way. The odds improve dramatically if the world community writes down Iraq's debt and begins a massive environmental recovery program there. Neither is extremely likely, though I see failing to do it as penny-wise.
OTOH, it is politically difficult. Among other things, it would require the Bush administration to acknowledge the environmental issues. Russia, China, and France would have to back off of some of their ambitions and trouble making, and a lot of people would have to bite the bullet on the debt. Between cleaning up the severe environmental problems, stabilizing the water supply, and fixing the easier agricultural issues, recovery will take 10-15 years. There is a decreasing likelihood that the political situation in the US will support that. If not, it would probably be cheaper to defend Saudi Arabia/Kuwait, Jordan and Turkey, and let the Iraqis kill one another, while their refugees destabilize Iran and Syria.
Although giving in to Saudi pressure to switch sides and back the Sunni/Kurds would probably buy some time (much as it did when the British withdrew last time), that's a temporary solution that would probably lead to fighting the whole thing over again later. It would also require the US to abandon the whole 'democratization' line, though I think that if they fail to deal with the debt and environmental issues, that's the best we can hope for any time soon in any event.
Other scenarios are possible, but the core issues: the environmental catastrophe/food supply, Iraq's external debt problems and the price of oil must be part of the discussion. Low-information, un-analytical political spin and hot air is pointless, and is highly unlikely to yield a favorable outcome.
In particular, if anyone out there has more current information on the status of Iraq's external debt that they are willing and able to share, I would appreciate hearing about it. Also, if anyone has access to public information on the environmental efforts in Iraq, that could prove useful.
Tiglath - 15 May 2007 20:03 GMT >>The humanitarian justification for this blunder died long ago, and unlike >>Lazarus, won't rise again. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > excess death is currently running at about 1/5th of its level prior > to the invasion. Are you saying that the average murder rate under Saddam's 23 years of tyranny was higher than the killing rate of Iraqis in the last four years?
A great difficulty in answering is that murders are being underreported. Therefore nothing conclusive may be said.
> From the standpoint of humanitarian action, in the short run, the > current policy of intervening in the genocide that was being conducted > by the Hussein government is appealing in some ways. "Genocide" while correct by the dictionary, is inappropriat in the sense the word has acquired since the Holocaust. Saddam was not exterminating people systematically, he was putting down rebellion and dissent. That's nothing unusual in dictatorships, even Franco, the most benign of dictators did that.
I am not going to exult life under Saddam, but clearly there WAS some sense of security if you were apolitical and didn't have georgeous daughters. AND if you were on Saddam's side there was excellent security. Bad as that may be, it is far better that no security at all as it is now. The moment the Humvee leaves the street anyone can come into your house and murder you. It's a FREQUENT, EVERYDAY occurrence. I doubt that was the atmosphere under Saddam.
At sometimes it is the people in the Humvees who rape and murder you...
> Over the long > term, the case is less clear. It might be more humane in the long term [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be blamed. None of the choices are/were terribly appealing, at least > two (neglect and blockade) had already been tried. I disagree. No one is blaming the U.S. for helping keep the peace in Bosnia, at long last.
You seem to forget that we did not invade Iraq to stop any ongoing genocide in Iraq, as those of Rwanda or Sudan. Saddam's crimes weren't terrible enough for that. It was his alleged thread to US that caused the war. When that evaporated, casus belli morphed into "let's help the poor Iraqis." Which we all know is cowshit.
I don't care about the Iraqis, other than in a vague general way as I care for the rest of the world. Do you? If I had a pimple on my face that would bother me more than tomorrow's market bombing. Hey, I am honest.
Yet, I consider myself infinitely superior to most politicians morally, especially those in the current administration. To think that THEY care about ordinary Iraqi's is like believing that the Hollywood stars in Malibu and Berverly Hills lose sleep at night over the plight of the poor in Tijuana.
And I am far from alone on this. That's why the humanitarian justification is dead.
> Iraq has significant problems. Although satellite imagery indicates > that the UN's environmental project has succeeded in restoring about [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > solvable in Auroville fashion (a combination of reforestation and > sustainable agriculture). Again, it's a minimum 15-year commitment. That's all good info, but why should Iraq's problems be the focus of our attention, over those of other nations?
Somehow, Bush has succeeded in making us believe that Iraq is a country we should help in disproportionate measure. Why?
It's only distinction is that Bush broke it and now he owns it. Should our whole nation pay and continue to pay for a bad president's bad mistake, even when it becomes clear it is a mistake, and the bad president refuses to rectify it or even cut his losses? It is time to eject, and decouple ourselves from the gigantic failure that a minority of Bush voters has inflicted on all.
As for Iraq, it's not as if the Viet Cong will take over if we leave. We have given them plenty of time to embrace peace and democracy, but they are more interested in which Muslim group triymphs over others; it's their choice -- let it be. There are fist fights every day in their parliament. The are animals, and we have cast our pearls at them. Enough has been done. We are not leaving them at the mercy of foreign armies if we leave, we are leaving them in their own home to sort themselves out. That is hardly a dishonor.
James Beck - 18 May 2007 10:02 GMT >>>The humanitarian justification for this blunder died long ago, and unlike >>>Lazarus, won't rise again. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Are you saying that the average murder rate under Saddam's 23 years of >tyranny was higher than the killing rate of Iraqis in the last four years? It says 'excess death'. It's a technical term usually reported out as realized minus expected death for a particular period. Homicide is one source of excess death. Mass murder, starvation, preventable illness, injury, etc. are others.
One of the main arguments advanced in favor of ending the sanctions was the high excess death rate. The estimated total body count during the sanctions period was 1.8 million.
>A great difficulty in answering is that murders are being underreported. >Therefore nothing conclusive may be said. Hypocrite. You drew a blanket conclusion that the humanitarian issue is dead. I've simply accepted your estimates of the deaths. If you wish to revise your estimates, I'm fine with that.
>> From the standpoint of humanitarian action, in the short run, the >> current policy of intervening in the genocide that was being conducted [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >unusual in dictatorships, even Franco, the most benign of dictators did >that. Really? At a rate of 150,000 per year? That's more deaths in one year than the estimated total Iraqi casualties during the Iran-Iraq war. The US intervened in an ongoing civil war/genocide, rather foolishly, I think, especially given the extremely inarticulate public rationale.
>I am not going to exult life under Saddam, but clearly there WAS some sense >of security if you were apolitical and didn't have georgeous daughters. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It's a FREQUENT, EVERYDAY occurrence. I doubt that was the atmosphere >under Saddam. Baloney. People were dropping like flies under Saddam.
>At sometimes it is the people in the Humvees who rape and murder you... War is hell.
>> Over the long >> term, the case is less clear. It might be more humane in the long term [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> be blamed. None of the choices are/were terribly appealing, at least >> two (neglect and blockade) had already been tried.
>I disagree. No one is blaming the U.S. for helping keep the peace in >Bosnia, at long last. Really? Let's ask the Serbs and Russians privately.
>You seem to forget that we did not invade Iraq to stop any ongoing genocide >in Iraq, as those of Rwanda or Sudan. Saddam's crimes weren't terrible >enough for that. It was his alleged thread to US that caused the war. >When that evaporated, casus belli morphed into "let's help the poor Iraqis." >Which we all know is cowshit. I merely contradicted your assertion about 'humanitarian' concerns. The reasons for the invasion are complex and filled with tedious political spin.
>I don't care about the Iraqis, other than in a vague general way as I care >for the rest of the world. Do you? If I had a pimple on my face that >would bother me more than tomorrow's market bombing. Hey, I am honest. I appreciate your honesty.
It would have made more sense to ignore the cities for the most part, secure the oil fields, use the oil revenue to pay down Iraq's debt, and let the Iraqi people deal with their population, food and political problems, or...stay out of it. The same thing would have happened more or less, though it would have taken a bit longer.
The way they did it gets us a bad deal.
It's expensive.
Starving people who are afraid of genocide aren't good candidates for democratic self-government.
Because we're there with deep pockets, most of Iraq's creditors have no incentive to forgive their share of the debt, and many of them have a clear disincentive to do so if it puts pressure on the US.
The environmental problems are staggering. Fixing them will be an expensive, long-term commitment. Progress has been limited so far, and credit for most of the progress that has been reported out belongs to Canada and the UN. In terms of global politics, the US cannot play an active role in population reduction. Domestically, it is difficult for the administration to acknowledge that Iraq's problems are primarily environmental, i.e., overpopulation, desertification, etc. Doing so would require a similar acknowledgement of developing environmental problems in the US and elsewhere.
If the US leaves before the fundamental problems are corrected, the expected result is a return to high excess death rates, dictatorship, and Iraqi default on its debt. How bad the situation gets depends on the volatile, essentially uncontrollable price of a commodity that will come under gradual downward pressure almost immediately once the US leaves, and heavy downward pressure once the next recession occurs in the US, Europe, or Asia.
The severity of the situation prior to the invasion has already been forgotten, so if the US leaves soon, it will be blamed for the continuation of the collapse.
The choices are unappealing.
Incur the cost (stay) and accept the blame for a situation that, while much better, is still bad.
Abandon the cities, secure the oil fields, pay down the debt, and accept the blame for letting the genocide occur.
Avoid the cost (leave), and accept the blame for a situation that will, at a minimum, revert to its former severity, and may be much worse.
>Yet, I consider myself infinitely superior to most politicians morally, >especially those in the current administration. To think that THEY care >about ordinary Iraqi's is like believing that the Hollywood stars in Malibu >and Berverly Hills lose sleep at night over the plight of the poor in >Tijuana. They care about their investment and their image. That helps the Iraqis by effect. Does masturbating your morality give a pleasing finish?
>And I am far from alone on this. That's why the humanitarian justification >is dead. It makes little difference to me how many people think as you do. Millions of people are likely to die if the US leaves. You are free to argue that that is not our concern, or that saving them in the short term is not humanitarian.
>> Iraq has significant problems. Although satellite imagery indicates >> that the UN's environmental project has succeeded in restoring about [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >That's all good info, but why should Iraq's problems be the focus of our >attention, over those of other nations?
>Somehow, Bush has succeeded in making us believe that Iraq is a country we >should help in disproportionate measure. Why? Iraq has a valuable strategic resource, and its regime (refugees) were (are) destabilizing its neighbors.
>It's only distinction is that Bush broke it and now he owns it. Iraq was in serious trouble long before the US intervened. Borrowing to buy food in 1983 at the latest, environmentally devastated, unable to pay its creditors, population starving, millions of refugees, a despotic regime with nuclear ambitions, combine to make a disaster of Biblical proportions.
>Should our >whole nation pay and continue to pay for a bad president's bad mistake, even >when it becomes clear it is a mistake, and the bad president refuses to >rectify it or even cut his losses? Which president? Reagan ignored. The problem got worse. Bush Sr blockaded. The problem got worse. Your own solution having been tried and having failed, Dubya invaded. This policy may also fail. The notion that it has already failed is bogus on its face. The Iraqi death rate is down sharply. Iraq is able to pay its bills. Most of Iraq's population is no longer starving. Per capita GDP is up sharply. On the whole, things have gone extremely well. As well they should. The whole goat-screw has been staggeringly expensive.
> It is time to eject, and decouple I have no real problem with that policy, as long as people acknowledge the consequences.
>As for Iraq, it's not as if the Viet Cong will take over if we leave. What? Iraq had a communist dictatorship at the time of the invasion. Assuming an early withdrawal, the best we can reasonably expect is a more fascist dictatorship to take its place.
>We >have given them plenty of time to embrace peace and democracy, but they are >more interested in which Muslim group triymphs over others; it's their >choice -- let it be. There are fist fights every day in their parliament. >The are animals, and we have cast our pearls at them. Enough has been done. >We are not leaving them at the mercy of foreign armies if we leave, Probably true. Anyone who wants to conquer Iraq at low cost will have to commit genocide. Avoiding genocide will be as expensive for a successor as it has been for the US. That makes Iraq more of a mill stone than just a bad penny.
Andrew Swallow - 18 May 2007 18:26 GMT [snip]
> It would have made more sense to ignore the cities for the most part, > secure the oil fields, use the oil revenue to pay down Iraq's debt, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > no incentive to forgive their share of the debt, and many of them have > a clear disincentive to do so if it puts pressure on the US. Most of these debts will have been after the United Nations and the USA imposed sanctions on Iraq. So many of the debts or the goods purchased are likely to be illegal. There is an old rule of law that illegal debts cannot be collected using the courts - magistrates do not help crooks commit their crimes.
Set up a commission to investigate the extent of Iraq's debts. Since a lot of the paperwork was burn a full list may not exist, this makes paying interest difficult. Require all debts over say $1,000,000 to be registered.
This level means that politically embarrassing figures like little old ladies do not lose their widow's pension.
The commission will receive copies of all the large foreign loans and may be able to work out which ones were for banned weapon's contracts.
Announce acceptance of a few honest debts. Possibly pay a few off. Then invite the press to a public debt acceptance ceremony. Supply interpretors. When everyone is watching declare the debts illegal and the say the lender is to be punished by non-payment.
This public non-payment will not only shame the lender but will make them think twice before they annoy the USA by doing it again.
> The environmental problems are staggering. Fixing them will be an > expensive, long-term commitment. Progress has been limited so far, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Doing so would require a similar acknowledgement of developing > environmental problems in the US and elsewhere. Green politics is popular at the moment. For the USA to stay the Democrats need an excuse to spend money on Iraq. Fixing the environment is a good one.
Andrew Swallow
James Beck - 19 May 2007 23:05 GMT >[snip] > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >This public non-payment will not only shame the lender but will make >them think twice before they annoy the USA by doing it again. Your proposal carries a high danger of destabilizing the global economy, especially in China, but it would be bad for Russia, too.
Also, I doubt that either Saudi Arabia or Kuwait can afford to take the enormous losses. Also, since they were, for all intents and purposes being blackmailed by Saddam, I'm not sure we should ask them to accept those losses. They are a cost of our earlier neglect and hesitation.
Otherwise, I think the coalition would have jumped on it two years ago.
Andrew Swallow - 19 May 2007 23:30 GMT >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > to accept those losses. They are a cost of our earlier neglect and > hesitation. Many loans for the Iran-Iraq War will be legal, sanctions were only brought in near the end. It was legal for Iraq to buy food and medicines. The banks may still have records of the cheques.
> Otherwise, I think the coalition would have jumped on it two years > ago. Andrew Swallow
Tiglath - 18 May 2007 20:33 GMT >>>>The humanitarian justification for this blunder died long ago, and >>>>unlike [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > was the high excess death rate. The estimated total body count during > the sanctions period was 1.8 million. Any conditions producing excess deaths under Saddam have certainly not improved in the present chaos. With violent deaths and general insecurity being much higher.
>>A great difficulty in answering is that murders are being underreported. >>Therefore nothing conclusive may be said. > > Hypocrite. Ok smart Alec. Tell me how you measure your excess deaths before and after Saddam and how are any of those measures reliable?
> You drew a blanket conclusion that the humanitarian issue > is dead. I've simply accepted your estimates of the deaths. If you > wish to revise your estimates, I'm fine with that. It is a correct conclusion. Only idiots believes that we are in Iraq to help the Iraqis.
You don't seem to know either that cold mortality figures mean nothing. If they did there would be a Global War On Driving, and On Alcohol, and On Swimming Pools, before a War On Terror, which produces the fewest number of casualties.
You don't seee to have noticed either that 3,000 people dying in the collapse of two buildings being televised, cause far more alarm and a reaction that millions of dead by malaria, AIDS, or even the genocides of Rwanda and Sudan. It's not how many, but how and where.
Think of that instead of lecturing on the number of calories the Iraqi consumes a day.
Ray O'Hara - 31 May 2007 01:27 GMT nobody is checking on how many are dying now nor can they tell you howm many were killed by saddam.
Tankfixer - 16 May 2007 02:25 GMT In article <quvg43lllqkdp84ms5gp5etak1jius0ftb@4ax.com>, jdbeck11209 @yahoo.com mumbled
> Over 1996 up to the invasion, the Iraqis were permitted to export oil > at roughly their historical maximum capacity. They were unable to both > service their external debt and feed their population at the price of > oil prevailing over that period. Especially when Saddam was spending billions each year on palaces -- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads."
William Black - 16 May 2007 08:48 GMT > In article <quvg43lllqkdp84ms5gp5etak1jius0ftb@4ax.com>, jdbeck11209 > @yahoo.com mumbled [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Especially when Saddam was spending billions each year on palaces Well no.
The 'palaces with huge luxurious bunkers under them' story was exploded years ago.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Tankfixer - 17 May 2007 02:07 GMT In article <tHy2i.4658$o42.3435@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled
> > In article <quvg43lllqkdp84ms5gp5etak1jius0ftb@4ax.com>, jdbeck11209 > > @yahoo.com mumbled [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The 'palaces with huge luxurious bunkers under them' story was exploded > years ago. Are you saying he didn't build a number of palaces after 1991 ?
-- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads."
William Black - 17 May 2007 09:01 GMT > In article <tHy2i.4658$o42.3435@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Are you saying he didn't build a number of palaces after 1991 ? No.
I'm saying he didn't spend billions of dollars building them.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
redc1c4 - 17 May 2007 10:03 GMT > > In article <tHy2i.4658$o42.3435@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, > > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I'm saying he didn't spend billions of dollars building them. so there was an acceptable level of graft from the "oil for food" program that you would tolerate, even if it lead to hardship or death for the women & children of Iraq, who are the only reason this program was allowed?
redc1c4, or are you saying this graft was "built in" & therefore approved? %-)
 Signature "Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching."
Army Officer's Guide
William Black - 17 May 2007 11:30 GMT >> > In article <tHy2i.4658$o42.3435@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, >> > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > redc1c4, > or are you saying this graft was "built in" & therefore approved? %-) Graft is always built in.
It's the nature of the beast.
Live in the real world.
While the US investigators were finding French profiteers they were busy shouting, when they thought they'd caught a radical British politician they went hysterical, when they found a couple of Texan oil men it all went quiet...
After being ritually humiliated by the British politician they went and hid under a rock and hoped he'd gone away.
The system is riddled with graft and corruption.
If it wasn't they'd have indicted George Galloway by now.
But they haven't.
That's because, despite saying he's dirty, they daren't.
He's too articulate and too clever for them.
They're crooked.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Les Cargill - 18 May 2007 01:45 GMT >>>>In article <tHy2i.4658$o42.3435@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, >>>>william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > went hysterical, when they found a couple of Texan oil men it all went > quiet... Is there a reference? Why *WOULDN'T* they find a couple Texas oilmen, anyway....?
> After being ritually humiliated by the British politician they went and hid > under a rock and hoped he'd gone away. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > They're crooked. We all are. Take away the gasoline, and see what happens.
-- Les Cargill
Tankfixer - 17 May 2007 15:23 GMT In article <nZT2i.31$oX4.12@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled
> > In article <tHy2i.4658$o42.3435@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, > > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I'm saying he didn't spend billions of dollars building them. So what did he sqaunder the billions in oil revenue on ? It surely wasn't repairing or updating the electrical systems of his country. Nor was it extending services to his entire poplulation. What did he spend the money on ?
-- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads."
William Black - 17 May 2007 16:10 GMT > In article <nZT2i.31$oX4.12@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Nor was it extending services to his entire poplulation. > What did he spend the money on ? A reasonable proportion did go on the people of Iraq. They didn't starve.
Much of the rest seems to have gone on guns and communications systems for his army.
A small proportion went on luxuries for himself and his inner circle.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Tankfixer - 18 May 2007 04:33 GMT In article <uf_2i.559$HP4.265@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled
> > In article <nZT2i.31$oX4.12@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, > > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > A reasonable proportion did go on the people of Iraq. They didn't starve. The favored ones didn't. Ask the Marsh Arab's or the Kurds how much support the central government gave them.
> Much of the rest seems to have gone on guns and communications systems for > his army. > > A small proportion went on luxuries for himself and his inner circle. You left out the generous bribes -- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads."
Kerryn Offord - 19 May 2007 00:35 GMT > In article <uf_2i.559$HP4.265@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, > william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled >>> In article <nZT2i.31$oX4.12@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, >>> william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled <SNIP>
>>>> I'm saying he didn't spend billions of dollars building them. >>> So what did he sqaunder the billions in oil revenue on ? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ask the Marsh Arab's or the Kurds how much support the central > government gave them. Hey, they revolted against the government and now you expect the government to be nice back?
It's another version of pork barrel politics. You give the pork to your supporters.. <SNIP>
Paul J. Adam - 19 May 2007 01:15 GMT >In article <uf_2i.559$HP4.265@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, >william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Ask the Marsh Arab's or the Kurds how much support the central >government gave them. You mean, after they tried to rebel against Baghdad? (And got left flapping in the breeze by their erstwhile foreign friends, and died in large numbers as a result?)
Saddam and his cadre were very skilled at allocating resources. Behave and your neighbourhood got food, water and power. Misbehave and it didn't. Which gave the Iraqi in the street a serious incentive to report any anti-regime activity to the Mukhabarat...
The trouble is, we promised an end to those shortages, so (for example) Iraqi electricity consumption doubling in a few months caught us on the hop and bred resentment when a given household had power for fewer hours a day than under Saddam even if they were good boys and girls.
A hardened cynic would have simply said "things may get better if you behave but any district where there's an insurgent attack gets no power for a week, and no fuel either so no cars, taxis or generators". But that's hindsight, to say nothing of probably illegal (it's fine for countries to do that to themselves, but inflicting it from outside is a no-no) After all, think of the poor dying infants in the hospital when the lights go out... (and there _will_ be dead babies if you cut off power)
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk
gibson_car@yahoo.com - 18 May 2007 15:21 GMT On May 17, 11:10 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <nZT2i.31$oX4...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, > > william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > A small proportion went on luxuries for himself and his inner circle. You mean for all those teeny tiny palaces and that one small underground bunker he built? Come on, be serious!
> -- > William Black [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. William Black - 18 May 2007 16:35 GMT > On May 17, 11:10 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> > wrote: >> "Tankfixer" <paul.carr...@us.army.m> wrote in message
>> > What did he spend the money on ? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You mean for all those teeny tiny palaces and that one small > underground bunker he built? Come on, be serious! That stuff doesn't cost 'billions' it costs a few millions.
You do need to know what people can get if they spend a lot of money rather than an obscene amount of money, well, unless you're the US armed forces anyway. I doubt Saddam ever spent $400 on a thermos flask.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
gibson_car@yahoo.com - 18 May 2007 16:45 GMT On May 18, 11:35 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <gibson_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Ya never know, he spent more than that to walk on George Bush Sr. tiled face.
James Beck - 19 May 2007 09:17 GMT >In article <nZT2i.31$oX4.12@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, >william.black@hotmail.co.uk mumbled [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Nor was it extending services to his entire poplulation. >What did he spend the money on ? "Squander" is an unnecessarily loaded term.
Iraq's GDP in 2002 was US$20.5 billion. Of that, about 32% (US$6.56 bil) was from agriculture & consumed. US$11 billion more went for imports of food, medicine and manufactured goods. An estimated US$1.3 billion was spent on the military.
That left US$1.69 billion. Iraqis consumed 25.389 billion kwH of electricity in 2002. Guessing a cost of US$0.06 per kwH, which is on the low end for the US, that cost another US$1.523 billion, leaving US$116,660,000 for everything else, including capital expenditures and those alleged generous bribes, palaces, and so forth.
Not to minimize the theft of US$117 million for that year. It's a substantial amount of money, particularly compared to Iraq's output. OTOH, it isn't "billions of dollars," either. If Hussein's family stole the same amount every year of the sanctions, it would be about US$1.4 billion total. Of that, Iraq's central bank records reflect a withdrawal of US$1 billion by Hussein's family immediately prior to the US intervention. US$650 million was later found in one of the palaces. It is unclear whether that was part of the same withdrawal.
The US has alleged that US$10 billion to US$21 billion is unaccounted for from the oil-for-food period. Aside from being miles apart, those estimates appear to be based on the difference between Iraq's average and actual production over 1998 through 2002 times the prevailing oil price in each year (multiplying by 0.5 gives the lower bound). That is, they don't appear to be based on any actual evidence. In addition, the historical volatility of Iraq's annual production is sufficiently large that output in the target years is not particularly suspicious statistically.
There was some limited evidence of actual fraud, too. Indictments were handed down in those instances. Tonsun Park was paid about US$1.7 million. Benon Sevon received US$160,000 in bribes. The allegations against the others may total as much as US$100 million. Again, these values are a far cry from those alleged.
While it's not inconceivable that the fraud was much greater and the illicit gains will eventually turn up in bank records, there doesn't appear to be much foundation at this point. OTOH, the UN has been rather uncooperative. AFAIK they have refused to turn over the results of all but one of their audits.
In retrospect, the CIAs estimate of Iraq's 2002 GDP of US$59 billion was far off the mark. The US$39 billion gap between the real-time estimate, and the full-information revision leaves a lot of room for speculative indignation and fear. The actual situation now appears to have been different.
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 19 May 2007 09:46 GMT > On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:23:07 GMT, Tankfixer <paul.carrier@us.army.m>
>>So what did he sqaunder the billions in oil revenue on ? >>It surely wasn't repairing or updating the electrical systems of his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Squander" is an unnecessarily loaded term. I thought this was interesting - written in January 2006 and reposted here without comment.
".....January 17, 2006 marks the 15th commemoration of the Gulf War in 1991 after Iraq occupied Kuwait (briefly) in 1990. (Or according to American terminology, after Iraq 'liberated' Kuwait in 1990.)
For 42 days, Baghdad and other cities and towns were bombarded with nearly 140,000 tons of explosives, by international estimates. The bombing was relentless- schools, housing complexes, factories, bridges, electric power stations, ministries, sewage facilities, oil refineries, operators, and even bomb shelters (including the only baby formula factory in Iraq and the infamous Amirya Shelter bombing where almost 400 civilians were killed).
According to reports and statistics made by the "Iraqi Reconstruction Bureau" and the ministries involved in reconstruction, prior to the 2003 war/occupation, the following damage was done through 42 days of continuous bombing:
Schools and scholastic facilities - 3960 Universities, labs, dormitories - 40 Health facilities (including hospitals, clinics, medical warehouses) - 421 Telephone operators, communication towers, etc. - 475 Bridges, buildings, housing complexes - 260 Warehouses, shopping centers, grain silos - 251 Churches and mosques - 159 Dams, water pumping stations, agricultural facilities - 200 Petroleum facilities (including refineries) - 145 General services (shelters, sewage treatment plants, municipalities) - 830 Factories, mines, industrial facilities - 120
.And much, much more- including radio broadcasting towers, museums, orphanages, retirement homes, etc. While the larger damage- damage to dams, bridges, warehouses, ministries, food silos, etc.- was done by warplanes and missiles, the damage to smaller facilities was caused largely by vandalism in the south of the country and in areas like Kirkuk. In the south it was mainly the work of the "intifadah" which was initiated by the 'tawabin' or "The Repentant" who infiltrated the south from Iran and found supporters inside of the country. (Many of the 'Tawabin' are known today as Badir's Brigade.)
What happened in the south in 1991 is similar to what happened in Baghdad in 2003- burning, looting and attacks. The area fell into chaos after the Republican Guard was pulled out to different governorates for the duration of the war. Meanwhile, the US was bombing the Iraqi army as it was pulling out of Kuwait and the Tawabin were killing off some of the Iraqi troops who had abandoned their tanks and artillery and were coming back on foot through the south. Many of those troops, and the civilians killed during the attacks, looting, and burning, were buried in some of the mass graves we conveniently blame solely on Saddam and the Republican Guard- but no one bothers to mention this anymore because it's easier to blame the dictator.
But I digress- the topic today is reconstruction. Immediately after the war, various ministries were brought together to do the reconstruction work. The focus was on the infrastructure- to bring back the refineries, electricity, water, bridges, and telecommunications.
The task was a daunting one because so many of Iraq's major infrastructure projects and buildings had been designed and built by foreign contractors from all over the world including French, German, Chinese and Japanese companies. The foreign expertise was unavailable after 1991 due to the war and embargo and Iraqi engineers and technicians found themselves facing the devastation of the Gulf War all alone with limited supplies.
Two years and approximately 8 billion Iraqi dinars later, nearly 90% of the damage had been repaired. It took an estimated 6,000 engineers (all Iraqi), 42,000 technicians, and 12,000 administrators, but bridges were soon up again, telephones were more or less functioning in most areas, refineries were working, water was running and electricity wasn't back 100%, but it was certainly better than it is today. Within the first two years over 100 small and large bridges had been reconstructed, 16 refineries, over 50 factories and industrial compounds, etc.
It wasn't perfect- it wasn't Halliburton. It wasn't KBR.but it was Iraqi. There was that sense of satisfaction and pride looking upon a building or bridge that was damaged during the war and seeing it up and running and looking better than it did before.
Now, nearly three years after this war, the buildings are still piles of debris. Electricity is terrible. Water is cut off for days at a time. Telephone lines come and go. Oil production isn't even at pre-war levels. and Iraqis hear about the billions upon billions that come and go. A billion here for security. Five hundred million there for the infrastructure. Millions for voting. Iraq falling into deeper debt. Engineers without jobs simply because they are not a part of this political party or that religious group. And the country still in shambles.
One of the biggest, most complicated and most swiftly executed reconstruction projects was the Dawra Refinery in Baghdad. It is Iraq's oldest refinery and one of its largest. It was bombed several times during the Gulf War and oil production came to a halt. After the war, it is said that the Iraqi government negotiated with an Italian company to reconstruct it but the price requested by the company was extremely high. It was decided then that the reconstruction effort would be completely local and the work began almost immediately. Several months later, during the summer of 1991, when the Italian experts came back to assess the damage, they found that the refinery was functioning.
[There's more and a lot of 'before and after' pictures of the repair work the Iraqi's carried out after the first Gulf War]
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_riverbendblog_archive.html
James Beck - 20 May 2007 09:06 GMT >> On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:23:07 GMT, Tankfixer <paul.carrier@us.army.m> > [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > >http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_riverbendblog_archive.html Very interesting material. You could look at this in a variety of ways. After GWI, Iraq still had a functioning government, military, economy, and financial reserves. Those institutions that survived the sanctions were destroyed during the invasion.
Also, I don't think there's ever been much question that dictatorship is the most efficient form of government, at least until the dictator screws up. Resilience was probably easier to come by before the starvation set in.
There is an old military experiment that may be illustrative. Take a smooth-sided tub and fill it halfway with water. Grab a live healthy rat and throw it into the tub. It will swim for hours until it is exhausted. Grab a second rat, but this time pin its legs to its sides until it stops struggling. If you've ever watched a constrictor eat, that usually doesn't take very long. Throw the rat into the tub. It will sink and drown within a few minutes. Defeat has a profound psychological effect that isn't easy to overcome.
Then too, starvation has a variety of ugly offspring and selfishness is one of them. Although capitalists often point to the optimizing value of selfish behavior, they rarely note that their version of 'pure competition' isn't pure at all. Instead it is contaminated with a tacit contractual agreement to live by a certain set of rules. Once starvation strips those rules away, cooperative behavior may be much more difficult to come by. It isn't easy to overcome anarchy, particularly if people see the fruit of allegedly democratic action as illegitimate and there is no real economic progress.
In the case of Iraq, per capita GDP has expanded faster than inflation, so there has been some improvement in real terms. However, improving from an extremely low level of income to a very low level of income has, so far at least, been insufficient to persuade the population to re-invest themselves in the future of their country.
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 20 May 2007 11:11 GMT >>> On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:23:07 GMT, Tankfixer <paul.carrier@us.army.m> >> >>>>So what did he sqaunder the billions in oil revenue on ?
>>> "Squander" is an unnecessarily loaded term.
>> Iraqi engineers and technicians found themselves facing the >>devastation of the Gulf War all alone with limited supplies. >> >>Two years and approximately 8 billion Iraqi dinars later, nearly 90% of >>the >>damage had been repaired.
> Defeat has a profound > psychological effect that isn't easy to overcome. There are all sorts of reasons to do with the continued occupation and the resistance to it and the four or five-way civil war that is going on at the same time as the resistance. Despite the headline grabbing large-scale civilian bombings the fact remains that the vast majority of attacks are aimed at the occupying army and are, of course, under-reported as is the norm in all conflicts of this nature
However, I was just pointing out to the poster who, SFAIUI, was claiming they had 'squandered' loads of oil money when in fact they accomplished a truly Herculean feat in rebuilding 90% of the infrastructure of the country in about two years. Whilst being bombed almost daily (again under-reported in the west) and under draconian trade sanctions. I'm also not convinced the Iraqi's would see themselves as having been 'defeated' anyway. I would expect about another 15 - 20 years of the same until eventually the situation is gradually resolved via a series of diplomatic compromises, under the table deals and at least the illusion of troop withdrawal. Seems to have been the format for most 'occupations' and 'civil wars' of this sort in past decades. On the other hand the madmen could launch a nuclear attack on Iran and then all bets are off everywhere for at least a generation.
James Beck - 21 May 2007 01:50 GMT >>>> On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:23:07 GMT, Tankfixer <paul.carrier@us.army.m> >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >could launch a nuclear attack on Iran and then all bets are off everywhere >for at least a generation. Certainly they accomplished some things, but their economy didn't recover, and they did it on starvation calories while being flogged by a dictator. Their fundamental problems are due to overpopulation, environmental/agricultural degradation. Add to that mix their serious debt problems and their dependence on a resource characterized by highly volatile production and commodity pricing. In other words, the fundamental problems remain. They have not been resolved.
In addition, the sort of passive solution you propose has already failed. That's not to say that I like the current active solution, but there's no point in wearing rose colored glasses, either.
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 21 May 2007 02:45 GMT >>>>> On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:23:07 GMT, Tankfixer <paul.carrier@us.army.m> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Certainly they accomplished some things, 'Some things'! Oh yes - 90% of their infrastructure rebuilt in 2 years is 'some thing' allright.
> but their economy didn't > recover, Difficult when you have trade sanctions preventing trade - ain't that a bitch.
> and they did it Yep - they sure did. And not only that they did it '
>on starvation calories while being flogged by > a dictator. And now they are *not* doing it on starvation calories while under an occupying army.
>Their fundamental problems are due to overpopulation, There is no such thing as problem due to overpopulation - that is such a 1950's western colonial-minded myth. If that were the case then the UK would be starving, not the world's fifth richest country - same goes for Japan.
> environmental/agricultural degradation. Yes - they are the problems, not the population.
> Add to that mix their serious > debt problems Exactly - if they had money they could easily support their tiny population. And who's fault is that may I ask?
>and their dependence on a resource characterized by > highly volatile production and commodity pricing. That's rich given that a prime reason the west bombed their oil refineries and invaded their country was because they might have begun trading in Euros instead of 'petrodollars' as they are euphemisticaly termed. Funny that Iran also began to be maligned and threatened with being liberated the moment they suggested they might follow suit.
> In other words, the > fundamental problems remain. They have not been resolved. The fundamental problem at the moment is the fact that their country has been utterly trashed by an invading army of occupation after at least a decade of sanctions and aereal attacks. Remove these 'problems' and you might find that the resourceful Iraqis with their oil resources may recover. I don't know how this can be achieved now what with the total hash we've made of things but it doesn't alter the basic fact of the problem.
> In addition, the sort of passive solution you propose has already > failed. No it hasn't. It wasn't given a chance. The bullshit merchants and their government hawks were always bound to invade no matter what. They certainly proved that if nothing else.
That's not to say that I like the current active solution, but
> there's no point in wearing rose colored glasses, either. It's not wearing rose-tinted glasses - it's just inevitable. How else do you think it can be ended? The 'current active solution' is the one that clearly has failed but there is no way out in a hurry if the people claiming it will be 'an even worse bloodbath' can be believed. So far they've only lied so I have my doubts.
James Beck - 22 May 2007 19:50 GMT >>>>>> On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:23:07 GMT, Tankfixer <paul.carrier@us.army.m> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >Oh yes - 90% of their infrastructure rebuilt in 2 years is 'some thing' >allright.
>> but their economy didn't >> recover, > >Difficult when you have trade sanctions preventing trade - ain't that a >bitch. Keeping in mind that after 1995, they were permitted to produce and sell as much oil as they could, the 'miracle' you suggest doesn't add up. Estimated excess death continued to rise. They were unable to simultaneously service their debt and feed the population at the prevailing price of oil. Further, there is no reason at this point to believe that those price levels will not be revisited the next time one or more of the major economies has a significant slowdown or recession.
>>on starvation calories while being flogged by >> a dictator. > >And now they are *not* doing it on starvation calories while under an >occupying army. As far as I know, they are not currently starving with comparable frequency, though there is still some malnourishment particularly among children, but they are still killing one another. The notion that the coalition forces are treating the Iraqis with anything close to the brutality of the Hussein regime is absurd on its face, though I don't doubt that, if they did, the population would be motivated to try harder.
>>Their fundamental problems are due to overpopulation, > >There is no such thing as problem due to overpopulation - that is such a >1950's western colonial-minded myth. >If that were the case then the UK would be starving, not the world's fifth >richest country - same goes for Japan. No. It would be correct to say that there is no problem due to population, per se. The term 'overpopulation' means that the population exceeds the ability of the system to support it. Overpopulation is extremely destructive in its own right. For example, in the recent past, Iraq was the world's largest exporter of dates. Starving people cut down the trees for fuel and building materials. There was some surplus, so technically at least part of it was an allocation problem. The Hussein regime chose to allocate resources to rebuilding infrastructure.
As for the UK, and the rest of Europe for that matter, global warming has been very beneficial. If I were a European, I might hope that it is man-made. Keeping in mind that the Little Ice Age in Europe corresponds to severe drought in Africa and the beginning of European rape of that continent, as well as, the mass migration of Europeans to the New World, a mega drought or prolonged cold period will make it abundantly clear just how grossly overpopulated Europe is under less favorable conditions. Europe has a long history of instructive famines, along with its associated infanticide, euthanasia, cannibalism, crime, disease, and mass death.
Even if none of that were true, to avoid the total destruction of their own environments, the West and Japan are both dumping their externalities on the developing world. Absent a significant improvement in technology, they are running on borrowed time.
>> environmental/agricultural degradation. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Exactly - if they had money they could easily support their tiny population. >And who's fault is that may I ask? Thirty million isn't tiny, particularly if their survival depends on the weakly predictable production of a commodity for sale at an unpredictable price, and their agricultural productivity has been declining at 1% per year for the last 25 years.
> >and their dependence on a resource characterized by >> highly volatile production and commodity pricing. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >also began to be maligned and threatened with being liberated the moment >they suggested they might follow suit. The currency used in oil transactions is irrelevant as long as it is either fixed or floating relative to the dollar. The Euro floats against the dollar. Few of Iraq's exports find their way to the US, anyway.
Iran and Syria are in the cross-hairs because they have been following a familiar pattern: overpopulation, environmental degradation, dictatorship, and military buildup. Like North Korea, another environmental disaster area, Iran has potentially alarming nuclear ambitions. Like Iraq before it, Iran's major weapons suppliers are Russia (70%) and China (20%). Almost all of the remaining 10% comes from other eastern European countries.
There are several environmental hot zones around the world, and they have similar symptoms. Here are a few of them: Uganda, Rwanda, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Not a lot of happy stories there. Nigeria and Sri Lanka aren't far behind.
>> In other words, the >> fundamental problems remain. They have not been resolved. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I don't know how this can be achieved now what with the total hash we've >made of things but it doesn't alter the basic fact of the problem. Iraq started borrowing money to buy food in 1983 at the latest. They attempted to invade Iran to grab additional oil resources. They were defeated in a war they started.
Extorting loans from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, they got themselves deep in debt that they couldn't repay. With the onset of economic slowdown in the US, the price of oil declined 20 percent, at which point, Iraq defaulted on its food loans. In an attempt to nationalize about half of their traditional external government debt, and again, increase their oil resource, they invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia. They were defeated in another war they started.
These actions blocked the Hussein regime from stealing the resources of their neighbors. Beginning in 1995, it was permitted to pump and sell as much of its own oil as it could. In spite of that, Iraq was unable to pay its bills and feed its people, so the Hussein regime killed off an estimated 1.8 million of them. It was a heinous, repugnant regime and the world is better off without it.
The fundamental problem is that there are 4-8 million excess Iraqis given the environmental degradation, food supply limitations, debt service and unpredictable oil revenue. Just as the West and Japan find it easier to export their toxic wastes, deforestation and other externalities, it is far easier for Iraq to export its problems than to deal with them.
> > In addition, the sort of passive solution you propose has already >> failed. > >No it hasn't. It wasn't given a chance. Baloney. It was given a good long chance. The problem got worse as the population grew and the food supply declined.
>> there's no point in wearing rose colored glasses, either. > >It's not wearing rose-tinted glasses - it's just inevitable. How else do you >think it can be ended? A serious genocide would end it. So would repudiation of the debt. Both are very fast solutions. Both are nasty and politically unacceptable. I doubt we'll hear anyone credible suggesting the former. That later was proposed, but was flatly rejected by most of the main creditors.
If you want to avoid taking either a direct or indirect hand in genocid, or destabilizing the global economy, the alternative is a lengthy commitment to environmental restoration, and heavy investment in Iraqi agriculture.
>The 'current active solution' is the one that clearly has failed but there >is no way out in a hurry if the people claiming it will be 'an even worse >bloodbath' can be believed. So far they've only lied so I have my doubts. Anyone wishing not to be lied to should immediately stop listening to politicians, then gather and analyze the data. A lot of it is publicly available, and not extremely easy to lie about. Government debt service, for example is part of Iraq's publicly available budget. Information about malnutrition and the average calories per day is available from the UN. Figuring out the baseline cost of the UNs recommended food basket takes a little digging, but you won't be too far off if you use US$0.40 per person per day for food and US$0.60 per day per person per day for non-food. Obviously, that is a minimal basket. Don't forget the 4 million refugees when working out the total costs.
Oil production and exports are available from a variety of sources, as is information about UN, Canadian, and US environmental recovery efforts. Daily spot and futures prices for crude oil are available online.
Once you've done all that, build a simple P&L. Factor in the high debt service, declining agricultural output, and the volatility of Iraq's oil production. Build a simple model of oil prices taking into consideration the high probability of a post-war recession in the US and the likely upward pressure on dollar. Then draw your own conclusion. I think you'll find that it's rather bleak.
Of course, that's a lot of work. Once you've started, you may find that you're happier being lied to.
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 23 May 2007 16:33 GMT >you may find > that you're happier being lied to.
: ) Wish I had the time to debate with you.
I'll try to answer you at the weekend.
J Antero - 13 May 2007 19:46 GMT In both cases, the US put itself in a postion similar some foreign country trying to intervene in our Civil War.
That foreign country would have had both sides attacking it until it left, then the Civil War would have fought on to its conclusion.
> Spot On!... > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > John Adams, San Diego, USA/California Mark Test - 14 May 2007 07:11 GMT > In both cases, the US put itself in a postion similar some foreign country > trying to intervene in our Civil War. That's a good one.....question: when did this Iraqi 'civil war' begin? Prior to, or after our invading and removing Saddam?
> That foreign country would have had both sides attacking it until it left, > then the Civil War would have fought on to its conclusion. If only, there were a civil war in Iraq......keep saying it and even I, may start to believe it too.....
Mark
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James Beck - 18 May 2007 09:45 GMT >> In both cases, the US put itself in a postion similar some foreign country >> trying to intervene in our Civil War. >> >That's a good one.....question: when did this Iraqi 'civil war' >begin? Prior to, or after our invading and removing Saddam? That depends to some extent on how you define 'civil war'. There were an estimated 1.8 million excess deaths over the period between the end of GWI and the 2003 invasion, i.e., an average of about 150,000 per year. That annual rate of excess death exceeds the total Iraqi casualties during the Iran-Iraq war. I would say that some version of civlil war and/or genocide were the rule rather than the exception prior to the US intervention.
Certainly, the food supply/overpopulation problems were there long before. Iraq began borrowing to buy food in 1983 at the latest. They defaulted on those food loans prior to GWI.
J Antero - 18 May 2007 22:36 GMT >>> In both cases, the US put itself in a postion similar some foreign >>> country [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > civlil war and/or genocide were the rule rather than the exception > prior to the US intervention. The excess deaths under the UN sanctions up to the 2003 invasion were largely engineered by the Saddam regime, and due to lack of medical supplies, clean water etc., affecting the lower economic classes. It was done as a lever to get the UN to lift sanctions entirely so he could get back to what he had been doing before the Gulf War.
I don't think that can be called a type of civil war - it was calculated neglect of the lower economic classes (Sunni and Shiia), by a sitting government.
What we have now IS civil war. There are identifiable sides, it's para-military in nature, there is definite sectarian targeting and cleansing, and people are fleeing to domestic (in Iraq) sectarian sanctuaries, and fleeing the country entirely.
> Certainly, the food supply/overpopulation problems were there long > before. Iraq began borrowing to buy food in 1983 at the latest. They > defaulted on those food loans prior to GWI. Tiglath - 18 May 2007 23:22 GMT >>>> In both cases, the US put itself in a postion similar some foreign >>>> country [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > sanctuaries, and > fleeing the country entirely. And what are we doing in the middle of other people's civil war?
Once the WMD thread was dispelled even for the most credulous Bush supporters (some still claim WMD have actually been found) the humanitarian justification was given full rein. At its most grandiose it is an inspiring vision: a democratic Middle East that shakes off centuries of despotic decay.
Fortunately, only the naive believe that the treacherous waters of statecraft can rise to such soaring idealism. It is nothing but the stuff of speech writers, talking points, and party slogans.
Iraq and the Middle East were never humanitarian goals but instead seen as the enablers of a grand political strategy. While for Bush and his cramped and occluded smallness of thinking invading Iraq was little more than avenging his dad and pleasing Dick, for people like Karl Rove, not content with a 2-term presidency, it was the ushering of a decade-spanning era of Republican domination, like that preceding the Roosevelt years.
That dream is now in tatters, which means that even after the 2000 and 2004 victories, Rove has ultimately failed.
All that remains is damage control of an adventure undermined by mendacity and grisly ineptitude.
Before any talk that there is such thing as a humanitarian justification for being in Iraq, the claimant has to show that the American people, never mind the Bush administration, give a damn about the fate of the Iraqis, a people with whom we have no rapport and happen to know about them because they have become our leaders' obsession in last four years, and can't help reading or hearing about them in news reports. Other than that there is no connection to justify caring about them anymore than we care for people in Patagonia.
J Antero - 19 May 2007 01:09 GMT >>>>> In both cases, the US put itself in a postion similar some foreign >>>>> country [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > And what are we doing in the middle of other people's civil war? It's a chess game that we don't need to be in, where some of the pawns have horrific ends.
On one side are some players who have everything to gain or lose, who know the game, and who are ruthless and smart.
On the other side, you have an unaccomplished alcohol and drug abuser who "found jesus", and used that shtick to appeal to fools.
> Once the WMD thread was dispelled even for the most credulous Bush > supporters (some still claim WMD have actually been found) the > humanitarian justification was given full rein. At its most grandiose it > is an inspiring vision: a democratic Middle East that shakes off centuries > of despotic decay.
> Fortunately, only the naive believe that the treacherous waters of > statecraft can rise to such soaring idealism. It is nothing but the stuff [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > than that there is no connection to justify caring about them anymore than > we care for people in Patagonia. Ray O'Hara - 31 May 2007 01:23 GMT wingnuts anterior believe what ever rush the junkie tells them is to be believed on that day. tomorrow he will believe something else when the talking points change.
J Antero - 14 May 2007 22:58 GMT Paul Wolfowitz's fatal weakness The cronyism that may cost him his World Bank job is also what caused the Iraq debacle.
By Juan Cole
May 14, 2007 | The executive board of the World Bank mulled a possible vote of no confidence in the leadership of its president, Paul Wolfowitz, this weekend. How did the renowned neoconservative and former deputy secretary of defense, a primary architect of the Iraq war, come to these straits? Is he, as he claims, the victim of a smear campaign by those who dislike his politics? Or do the charges of favoritism and nepotism reflect genuine character flaws?
The small morality play unfolding at the World Bank tells us something significant about how the United States became bogged down in the Iraq quagmire when Wolfowitz was highly influential at the Department of Defense. The simple fact is that Wolfowitz has throughout his entire career demonstrated a penchant for cronyism and for smearing and marginalizing perceived rivals as tactics for getting his way. He has been arrogant and highhanded in dismissing the views of wiser and more informed experts, exhibiting a narcissism that is also apparent in his pers |
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