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History Forum / General / British History / June 2007Evening Standard: Britain Launches Massive Submarine That Can Hear A Ship From Across The Atlantic
'Strod'nry! <g> [N.B. -- Rousing Chorus of Rule Britannia!] DSH ----------------------------------------- Britain launches massive submarine that can hear a ship from across the Atlantic 08.06.07 The Evening Standard She is four years late and a massive £900million over-budget. But when the Royal Navy's super-sub HMS Astute finally arrived, she made for an awesome sight. More complex than the space shuttle, and able to circumnavigate the globe without surfacing, the 7,400-ton monster is the largest and deadliest hunter-killer submarine ever built. The Duchess of Cornwall cracked a bottle of beer – brewed by the sub's crew – on her prow to officially name the "boat", in Navy jargon, before she was gingerly wheeled out of her shed at the stately speed of one metre per minute. The specifications for Britain's biggest submarine make for mind- boggling reading, but it was the sheer size of the black behemoth which made its mark on the 10,000 dockyard workers, schoolchildren, VIPs and Navy personnel invited to the ceremony in Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria. As long as a football pitch, at 318ft, and as wide as four double- decker buses, HMS Astute is a third longer than any sub which has gone before. Her nuclear-powered engine will propel her through the water at more than 20 knots, yet the UK's first stealth sub makes less noise than a baby dolphin, making her as good as undetectable by enemy ships. Astute's sonar is so advanced that if she was lying in the English Channel she would be able to detect ships leaving New York harbour 3,000 nautical miles away (although the details of how she can do this are classified). The nuclear reactor will never need refuelling, and with an ability to make oxygen and drinking water out of sea water, the sub could stay underwater for its entire 25-year lifespan were it not for the needs of the crew. Once she goes into operation in 2009, Astute will carry a 98-man crew and stay at sea for 12 weeks on a routine patrol. She will carry 38 Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a range of 1,240 miles, meaning Astute could attack targets in North Africa with pinpoint accuracy while sitting off the coast of Plymouth. Spearfish torpedoes will also be on board for attacking ships and other subs. But Astute will not carry nuclear weapons – the UK's Trident missiles are launched from the Vanguard class of submarines. The Navy's submarine chief Captain Mike Davis-Marks said: "The Astute class of submarines will quite simply be unbeatable worldwide for many years to come. "Astute will have a capability that will keep us right at the top of the premiership of the world's navies – the Manchester United of submarine nations. With our proud heritage, Britain deserves nothing less." Astute is the first of four vessels to be built by BAE Systems at a total cost of £3.85billion, or £960million each. She will be joined by HMS Ambush, HMS Artful and HMS Audacious, with an option for a further three subs to come. Defence procurement minister Lord Drayson called Astute "a truly remarkable vessel" whose importance "cannot be over-estimated". As the Duchess of Cornwall named the sub – the first such ceremony she has carried out – she said: "As an admiral's wife myself, I am delighted to be in Barrow-in-Furness today for the naming and launching of Astute. I shall follow her progress with particular interest and hope to see her in the near future." She was presented with a retriever puppy, similar to one which appears on the Astute's crest, which will be donated to Guide Dogs for the Blind. The boat, which will replace the Swiftsure and Trafalgar classes, will be gently lowered into the water. It will eventually be based in Faslane on the Clyde in Scotland. <http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23399926-details/Britain+launches+nuc lear+sub+that+can+hear+a+ship+from+across+the+Atlantic/article.do> ------------------------------------------------- DSH Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. I suppose same-sex couples will be clamouring for a place on board, but this should be resolutely resisted. <G> Not even Elton John and his mate? DSH > Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to save true Englishmen from the > Muslim flood. > > I suppose same-sex couples will be clamouring for a place on board, but > this should be resolutely resisted. Elton can bring his piano, but that's all. :-)) > <G> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> clamouring for a place on board, but this >> should be resolutely resisted. How about if Elton sings _Goodbye England's Rose_ for the entire crew? DSH > Elton can bring his piano, but that's all. :-)) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>> I suppose same-sex couples will be clamouring for a place on board, but >>> this should be resolutely resisted. > How about if Elton sings _Goodbye England's Rose_ for the entire crew? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >>> I suppose same-sex couples will be clamouring for a place on board, but > >>> this should be resolutely resisted. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Commander, One ship of the line for $3.8 billions ? I say it's a floating coffin. Another Lusitania or Leviathan or HMS Hood. Cheers, David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. > >I suppose same-sex couples will be clamouring >for a place on board, but this should be >resolutely resisted. It's the first RN submarine where everyone gets their own bunk. -- Julian Richards www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >It's the first RN submarine where everyone gets their own bunk. And the captain gets his OWN hand basin in his _CABIN_.  SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... >>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And the captain gets his OWN hand basin in his _CABIN_. Even on the old Diesel Electric subs the Skipper had a cabin, (of sorts), there was little more than a bunk, a locker and a very ingenious unit that was both desk and hand basin. This also had a small mirror. All the bits could be reversed to do duty as something else. If I remember correctly this, "Cabin", did not have a door but a simple curtain that pulled across. I think the first officer too had a cabin of sorts. SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). Correct. I can vouch for that and slept in the second [upper] bunk, as a junior officer, my assigned bunk, in the First Officer's [Executive Officer's in U.S.N, lingo] stateroom [the proper term vice "cabin"]. The captain's stateroom had no upper bunk. 'Nuff Said. I'm not going to discuss the subs' missions. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas ---------------------------------------- > Even on the old Diesel Electric subs the Skipper had a cabin, (of sorts), > there was little more than a bunk, a locker and a very ingenious unit that > was both desk and hand basin. This also had a small mirror. All the bits > could be reversed to do duty as something else. If I remember correctly > this, "Cabin", did not have a door but a simple curtain that pulled > across. I think the first officer too had a cabin of sorts. > Correct. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm not going to discuss the subs' missions. Darn! >>>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > this, "Cabin", did not have a door but a simple curtain that pulled > across. I think the first officer too had a cabin of sorts. -- Shaving apparatus and urinal. >>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >And the captain gets his OWN hand basin in his _CABIN_. That's WONDERFUL! No more peeing in the galley sink! >>>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >That's WONDERFUL! No more peeing in the galley sink! That could be fun if we smeared Scots Bonnet juice along the edge. There is always one... SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... >>>>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That could be fun if we smeared Scots Bonnet juice along the edge. > There is always one... Good Lord, Bryn, is it now politically incorrect to call a "Scots Bonnet" a "Scotch Bonnet"? ;=) >>>>>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >"Scotch Bonnet"? > ;=) "Bonnet" is also a metal covering, like, and including, the cover of a still. The two terms have quite different meanings. (I made this up, then checked it out of curiosity - it's the truth.) Peter Skelton >>>>>>> Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>> save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Peter Skelton it's the same meaning, its a "cover" On a sail the bonnet is the extra, usually lightweight canvas along the bottom that could be "shook out" or "laced on" in light winds. IIRC they were very popular with fishing boats who only caried one set of relatively heavy sails cut small. When the boat was full and headed home they "shook out the bonnets". Fishing boats in Gloucester Mass used bonnets into the 20th century. The ones I saw were gaff rigged schooners. They disappeared with the improvement in sail cloth Vince >>>>>>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Peter Skelton I hate it when that happens... (No, I don't!) SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... >>>>>In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, Julian >>>>>Richards [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > (I made this up, then checked it out of curiosity - it's the > truth.) "Bonnet" is the cover of a still? Where? >>>>>>In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, Julian >>>>>>Richards [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >"Bonnet" is the cover of a still? >Where? On the top presumably. Peter Skelton >>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> > On the top presumably. Sorry. I usually guard me flanks better than that. >>>>>>Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >"Scotch Bonnet"? > ;=) The jury is still out on that one. They have arrived in our Morrisons (nee Safeway), lethal little buggers... SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... >>>>>>> Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>> save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The jury is still out on that one. They have arrived in our Morrisons > (nee Safeway), lethal little buggers... But extremely tasty with a flavour similar to apricots. We grow our own, when carefully cleaned they make a great salsa. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>>> Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>>> save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >But extremely tasty with a flavour similar to apricots. We grow our own, >when carefully cleaned they make a great salsa. Rubber gloves, goggles and making sure every last pip is removed? 30 years ago they were grown by some nurserymen as decorative pot plants. We broke one open and rubbed the juice on a pipe belonging to one of our hapless workmates. He ended up in A&E with breathing problems. I have never quite had the courage to try one... SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... >>>>>>>>> Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to >>>>>>>>> save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Rubber gloves, goggles and making sure every last pip is removed? It's not the seeds, it's the veins and ovaries. The seeds are only hot by association. Look for orangish yellow patches, that is almost pure capsaicin. Touch the very tip of a tooth pick to one of those patches and then touch the tip to your tongue, you will get a big surprise. > 30 years ago they were grown by some nurserymen as decorative pot > plants. We broke one open and rubbed the juice on a pipe belonging to > one of our hapless workmates. He ended up in A&E with breathing > problems. I have never quite had the courage to try one... A few years ago, I had harvested all my chiles because of an upcoming frost. I took in a bowl to work to give away. One of my colleagues, let's call him Mr. Macho Man, grabbed one and, even after I warned him, took a big bite, about half of the chile. His face went through the most entertaining (for me) colour changes. I wish I had it on film. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall On Jun 11, 4:38 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> wrote: > >>> In article <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > >>> Conway Caine <cca...@worldnet.att.net> writes [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > "For the stronger we our houses do build, > The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall I would guess non-SW USA, right? > On Jun 11, 4:38 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > I would guess non-SW USA, right? Not even SW Maryland. But Mr. Macho Man had lived in the SW for a while and prided himself on his tough palette. The pablano chiles that I grow have a fair amount of heat, about as much as Hatch (NM) grown NuMex chiles, the NuMex that I grow have much less heat but the Habanero (Capsicum Chinense, related to Scotch Bonnets) blow the doors off of anything in the SW. Capsicum Chinense chiles are native to the Caribbean Islands, they are the only chiles that don't have a native Mayan name. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall On Jun 11, 5:25 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> wrote: > > On Jun 11, 4:38 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > "For the stronger we our houses do build, > The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall Got one of these?, or the Red Savina? The Naga Jolokia is a cross between the capsicum chineses and the cap. frutoise or whatever, apparently each group can contribute to the heat. http://www.ushotstuff.com/worldshottestchile.htm > On Jun 11, 5:25 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > http://www.ushotstuff.com/worldshottestchile.htm Nope, and I'm not likely to. I don't consider myself a 'Mr. Macho Man'. I like the flavour and I like a certain amount of heat. I especially like to balance the different types of heat, the slow burn and the hard charging types. I don't munch habaneros to show off. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >> On Jun 11, 5:25 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > balance the different types of heat, the slow burn and the hard charging > types. I don't munch habaneros to show off. A few years ago I belonged to a gourmet cooking club - a few of us regulars who would dine at each other's homes with varying theme meals. One of my specialties was African cooking. I knew that I scored bonus points spice-wise if during the meal the male guests had beads of sweat pouring down their faces. I never saw that phenomenon on women, come to think of it. - nilita > On Jun 11, 5:25 pm, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > http://www.ushotstuff.com/worldshottestchile.htm Then there's wasabi ... I had a long weeping and runny nose spell at lunch when I had some with sushi (california rolls). - nilita Anyone who can't eat sushi with wasabi is a wimp -- or wimpess. DSH > Then there's wasabi ... I had a long weeping and runny nose spell at lunch > when I had some with sushi (california rolls). > > - nilita >Anyone who can't eat sushi with wasabi is a wimp -- or wimpess. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> - nilita The wasabi we get is only as strong as English mustard. I feel deprived... SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... > In article <6lobi.296$TO3....@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines > <pant...@excelsior.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Remove the gremlins to email me... Then you might want to come down with some incurable disease, like Alzheimer's, curable with curry. Nanocurry vs. Cancer Researchers hope that curcumin encapsulated in nanospheres will spice up clinical trials for Alzheimer's, cystic fibrosis and cancer. By Ganapati Mudur In recent years, laboratory and animal studies have suggested that curcumin--the pigment that gives the Indian curry spice turmeric its bright-yellow hue--may have some power to kill tumors and clear the brain plaques that characterize Alzheimer's disease. But because curcumin is insoluble, it mostly passes through the gut without making it into the bloodstream. While doctors in the United States, Europe, and Asia have conducted more than two-dozen clinical trials using curcumin, most have required patients to swallow up to 12 grams, or even more, of curcumin every day. That's a lot--even for the most ardent lovers of Indian food. Now researchers at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and the University of Delhi, in India, have invented curcumin-carrying nanospheres that could far more easily slip into the bloodstream. Call it nanocurry--a marriage of 21st-century nanotechnology with an ancient ingredient from the East. The nanospheres open up the possibility that low doses of oral curcumin could be used far more widely in clinical trials, a key step toward getting the ingredient from the spice aisle to the pharmacist's shelf. Animal studies to determine whether nanocurcumin has any effect against pancreatic tumors in mice are expected to begin within weeks; the development of the particles was published in the Journal of Nanobiotechnology in April. <more> http://www.technologyreview.com/Nanotech/18849/ >>Anyone who can't eat sushi with wasabi is a wimp -- or wimpess. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I feel deprived... Go online. Several Japanese sites will sell you the powdered version and you can mix your own. (Here's to cleared sinuses) >>> Anyone who can't eat sushi with wasabi is a wimp -- or wimpess. >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > your own. > (Here's to cleared sinuses) It's available in any Asian market. It's only green coloured horse radish. Fresh real wasabi is rather expensive, usually 3-4 USD per serving at the restaurants around here. It's not as hot but has a very interesting flavour. The price should be coming down soon now that it's being cultivated in the (US) Pacific North West. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>> In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, Julian >>>>>> Richards [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > But extremely tasty with a flavour similar to apricots. We grow our own, > when carefully cleaned they make a great salsa. Cory, what have you got against Bryn??? >>>>>>> In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, Julian >>>>>>> Richards [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Cory, what have you got against Bryn??? Nothing, why do you ask? Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Nothing, why do you ask? A salsa out of SBs? Surely you've laid a devilish plot here. >>>>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > A salsa out of SBs? > Surely you've laid a devilish plot here. Nonsense, I make salsas with Habaneros all the time, when they are in season. The Missus loves them, and she doesn't like overly hot (picante) food. The trick is in the cleaning. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>> In article >>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > season. The Missus loves them, and she doesn't like overly hot (picante) > food. The trick is in the cleaning. I see, She cleans. You cook. >>>>>>> In article >>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > She cleans. > You cook. In the kitchen, I do both. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > In the kitchen, I do both. MUST YOU TELL THE WORLD?????????????????? >>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > MUST YOU TELL THE WORLD?????????????????? I cook in self defense. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > I cook in self defense. Thank you for sealing the fate of a million brothers. >>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Thank you for sealing the fate of a million brothers. I'm steaming Zongzi tonight along with steamed pork buns. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, Julian >>>>>Richards [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The jury is still out on that one. They have arrived in our Morrisons > (nee Safeway), lethal little buggers... They make hot sauces out of Scotch Bonnets. Stay far, far away from them. And never touch your eyes after handling SBs. They are, as you say, lethal. >>>>>> In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, Julian >>>>>> Richards [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > And never touch your eyes after handling SBs. > They are, as you say, lethal. I wouldn't go that far, but it's a good idea to wash your hands *before* using the gent's. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I wouldn't go that far, but it's a good idea to wash your hands *before* > using the gent's. If you ever get the juice under your fingernails it burns for hours. Probably a market for them in Guantanamo. >If you ever get the juice under your fingernails it burns for hours. >Probably a market for them in Guantanamo. Probably not. It may not be called torture but these enhanced interrogation techniques seem to refine the breaking of the human spirit to such an extent that physical injury is not necessary. Much of it seems to be developments of the Chinese water torture which has always been highly effective. By comparison, the Iraqi insurgents with their use of power tools and such like on victims are not to extract information but are cruelty for the sake of it. -- Julian Richards www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I wouldn't go that far, but it's a good idea to wash your hands *before* > using the gent's. Please, oh please, don't clean an SB and then touch around your eyes. We've enough blind Bluebellies as it is........ >>>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Please, oh please, don't clean an SB and then touch around your eyes. > We've enough blind Bluebellies as it is........ I've been growing and consuming them for years. Are *all* southerners poofs? Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall On Jun 12, 11:47 am, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> wrote: > >>>> In article <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > >>>> Conway Caine <cca...@worldnet.att.net> writes [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > "For the stronger we our houses do build, > The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall There those who quail at the word "pepper" as if the mildest was filled with fire. Greasy food has destroyed their endorphins. > On Jun 12, 11:47 am, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > There those who quail at the word "pepper" as if the mildest was > filled with fire. Greasy food has destroyed their endorphins. The fact that we have the most sophisticated chile cuisine in the world just south of our borders is totally wasted on them. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >> On Jun 12, 11:47 am, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > The fact that we have the most sophisticated chile cuisine in the world > just south of our borders is totally wasted on them. I've not tried cultivating Scotch Bonnets, but regularly grow Habaneros, nearly as hot, along with chilepequins, a little "shrub" chile which is popular with white wing and mourning dove, and several standards including the Mexican "Japonese". My take on all the chiles is that depending on where and how they are cultivated makes a massive difference in the amount of heat, just as careful cleaning of all the white fibrous bits can gentle the worst of them. The most amazing sight are fields of the hybrid jalapeno developed by Texas A&M for the Campbell Soup folks for cosmetic use in Pace's Picantes. It looks like any other jalapeno but is absolutely fireless (and unfortunately, without much of the jalapenos' flavor, the real badge which sets the variety apart and above). At $ .79 a pound at my local HEB, I can't afford to grow jalapenos or serranos, just as from 4 bunches for a buck to $ .39 a bunch, cilantro is hardly worth the effort. Habaneros are good for the preparation of the Vera Cruz/Creole style snapper or Huachinango (Black Bass), and especially for some of the salsas based on mangoes, etc. The variety is at its best in "sweet hots".... TMO >>> On Jun 12, 11:47 am, Cory Bhreckan <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > I've not tried cultivating Scotch Bonnets, but regularly grow Habaneros, There's not much difference. They taste essentially the same and they're both Capsicum chinense. > nearly as hot, along with chilepequins, a little "shrub" chile which is > popular with white wing and mourning dove, I've grown the pequins or 'bird' chiles. Rather than picking the little bastards I just pulled up the plant and hung it upside down in the basement. Then I used the dried chiles as needed. Fun Fact: Birds don't react to capsaicin. Mammal's digestion destroys the seeds while birds don't. It's an interesting selective defense mechanism, much more sophisticated than simple toxins. > and several standards including > the Mexican "Japonese". My take on all the chiles is that depending on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or Huachinango (Black Bass), and especially for some of the salsas based on > mangoes, etc. The variety is at its best in "sweet hots".... They have a fruity flavour, similar to apricots. I used them in marinades or salsas but I never cook them. They do go great with mangoes. > TMO Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > I've been growing and consuming them for years. Are *all* southerners > poofs? You guys sit around, munching Scotch Bonnets? How in this world did we manage to lose the War? >>>>>>>> In article <4n6o63dobc407i9hn9o3ctpde5qign7msn@4ax.com>, The >>>>>>>> Highlander [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > You guys sit around, munching Scotch Bonnets? > How in this world did we manage to lose the War? You were too busy mincing about, putting doilies on the field artillery, that sort of thing. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>> In article >>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > You were too busy mincing about, putting doilies on the field artillery, > that sort of thing. Are you suggesting there is something wrong with a well decorated field piece? >>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Are you suggesting there is something wrong with a well decorated field > piece? Not a'tall, but your taste is *atrocious*! Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Not a'tall, but your taste is *atrocious*! Calm down. We seldom put Grits on our cannon. >>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Calm down. > We seldom put Grits on our cannon. Maybe you should have, things might have come out differently. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25977@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Maybe you should have, things might have come out differently. No, our big boo boo was invading Pennsylvania. That lost us the support of right thinking yankees. Oh well....... > >>>>>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > That lost us the support of right thinking yankees. > Oh well....... Your mistake was attacking any part of the Union. If you had not done Sumter and stayed on the defensive you might have sold Britain and France. >> >>>>>>>>>>> In article >> >>>>>>>>>>> <fjcbi.75281$Sa4.25...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Sumter and stayed on the defensive you might have sold Britain and > France. You are absolutely correct and Old Abe certainly knew what he was doing when he set out to reinforce Sumter. Those damn hot headed South Carolinians. But had we stood pat, we'd have sold the average yankee as well. Played right into their hands we did. But it all had to be, it all had to be. We truly could not have endured, half slave and half free. In article <3jsk63ha5rshbrsqve1qi1c4mkkjtdtto6@4ax.com>, julian@spam-me- not.co.uk mumbled > >Of course it's the new Noah's Ark built to > >save true Englishmen from the Muslim flood. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It's the first RN submarine where everyone gets their own bunk. I could make a snide comment about the RN right now but will refrain..... -- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads." > 'Strod'nry! <g> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Britain launches massive submarine that can hear a ship from across the > Atlantic It took them that long to copy Red October? >> 'Strod'nry! <g> >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >It took them that long to copy Red October? It will be a few years before the USA gets to catch up. -- Julian Richards www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL > >> 'Strod'nry! <g> > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It will be a few years before the USA gets to catch up. Riiiiiiight. The USN has built the 688i, the Seawolf, and Virginia classes in the time it's taken the RN to produce a follow on to their Trafalgars......Glad to see the RN keeping an SSN force, there was talk of them doing away with SSN's IIRC. Mark SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> >> 'Strod'nry! <g> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mark Lay the blame entirely on the politicians / treasury. The DOR requirement for what was then the styled 'Follow-On SSN' FOSSN was being hawked around 'industry' in the mid-eighties. There was the will we/won't we saga, a collapse of the USSR, the Blurr Decade, Peace Dividend, Strategic Defence Review, the desire of Government to restructure ship building in particular, Defence Manufacturing in general and the stop-start-stop- start etc. etc. etc. It's somewhat of a miracle that this boat - any boat - has emerged from the assembly hall at Barrow. SignatureBrian >> Riiiiiiight. The USN has built the 688i, the Seawolf, and Virginia >> classes in the time it's taken the RN to produce a follow on to >> their Trafalgars...... >Lay the blame entirely on the politicians / treasury. > >The DOR requirement for what was then the styled 'Follow-On SSN' FOSSN was >being hawked around 'industry' in the mid-eighties. To the point that I was working on a rig for a new design of submerged signal ejector for the SSN20 (provisionally named HMS Warspite) in 1989. Happy days with high-pressure compressed air, lots of water and really big spanners :) It was cancelled in 1991 or thereabouts, when the Red Horde went away and the need for Really Big Boat to keep the Soviet submarines out of the North Atlantic went away. Astute was designed with more flexibility in mind, since by then it was obvious that she would have to do a lot more than open-ocean ASW. SignatureThe nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk >> >> 'Strod'nry! <g> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >their Trafalgars......Glad to see the RN keeping an SSN force, >there was talk of them doing away with SSN's IIRC. What I mean is that the Astute is way ahead of anything in use by anyone else. No doubt it will be matched by the USN by whatever will be the next generation of US subs, but until then, it is the best, possibly by quite some margin. -- Julian Richards www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL > >> >> 'Strod'nry! <g> > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > possibly by quite some margin. > -- And what I meant is that the RN has closed on the USN, not passed us. Compare the Seawolf to the Astute and you'll see what I mean. Of course in this forum, it will remain an opinion based argument, since the specs for these subs are classified. Still, it's good to see the RN maintaining an SSN force. Mark SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>> >> 'Strod'nry! <g> >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL HMS ASTUTE was obsolescent by comparison to the VIRGINIA CLASS the day it was launched, so it is hardly "ahead" at all, except in astronomical cost overruns and botched manufacturing by BAE Systems. It is hardly necessary for the "USA...to catch up", when you consider the fact that the British MOD found it necessary to hire the USA to assist BAE Systems in designing the HMS ASTUTE and class after the BAE Systems design efforts failed and very nearly caused the project to be altogether canceled. Since each copy of the ASTUTE CLASS is costing some $8 billion dollars to build and still rising versus the approximately $2.2 billion dollars for each USS VIRGINIA CLASS boat, it appears the UK is never going to be able to use the ASTUTE CLASS to "catchup" with the USA in terms of lower costs, operational performance, tactical capabilities, or cost/benefit ratio. > Julian Richards > > www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk > Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" > > THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >HMS ASTUTE was obsolescent by comparison to the VIRGINIA CLASS the day it >was launched, so it is hardly "ahead" at all, except in astronomical cost [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"catchup" with the USA in terms of lower costs, operational performance, >tactical capabilities, or cost/benefit ratio. From what I have read, and of course none of us have exact details, at least not to be able to broadcast to the world, the Astute is the best submarine in the world at the moment. As to cost, whilst there have been problems the main difference is due to the advantages that the USA has in unit costs due to large production runs. This has always been the same and I have seen the same argument put forward before many years ago regarding amphibious assault ships. When you are only going to have a handful of ships of a certain type (for the assault ships, it was 2 for the UK), unit costs will be very high. That is why for many military project, European collaboration has been the way to go. -- Julian Richards www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >>HMS ASTUTE was obsolescent by comparison to the VIRGINIA CLASS the day it >>was launched, so it is hardly "ahead" at all, except in astronomical cost [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL Given the fact that the HMS ASTUTE is nothing more at present than a launched hull proceeding into being fitted out, it cannot yet even be claimed to be a properly working submarine much less "the best submarine in the world at the moment." If and when HMS ASTUTE completes trials and joins the fleet, only then will it be possible to begin to evaluate the actual performance of the boat relative to other boats of its type. In the meanwhile, claims such as the comment "the Astute is the best submarine in the world at the moment" amount to no more than a lot of overblown publicity hype and exagerration. In regard to the comment, "of course none of us have exact details, at least not to be able to broadcast to the world," nothing could be further from the truth. HMS ASTUTE is already one of the most detailed and best known nuclear submarine projects in the world, thanks to all of the overblown hype and publicity provided by MOD and BAE Systems. The boat's internal arrangments have been diagrammed and photographed for all the world to see. The boat's weapons systems and their capabilities are relatively well known in comparison to those aboard the American, Russian, and Chinese boats. In particular, the Thales 2076 Sonar System and its capabilities have been widely publicized, and varous Thales sonar systems are marketed to some forty nations around he world. It would be no surprise to learn in the future that the Russian intelligence services have already obtained most of what they need to know about the sonar system from French sources. It is true there is a lot of self-serving hype being published about the Thales 2076 Sonar System. "Introducing agility and flexibility, the Stage 5 programme will ensure that Sonar 2076 remains the most comprehensive and highly capable in-service sonar in the world, thus sustaining a key military advantage for the Royal Navy. (http://www.thales-naval.com/naval/newsroom/naval-press-clips-06/press-060927.htm) However, it is equally true there is self-serving publicity claiming the opposite. "Seawolf emerged as the ultimate open-ocean ASW platform: faster, quieter, more heavily armed, and equipped with better acoustic sensors than any attack submarine in the world [....]Additionally, Virginia will be the acoustic equal of Seawolf while adding new non-acoustic stealth features for the survivability it needs to operate in future tactical environments, which will likely include greater threats from mines and non-traditional ASW methods." (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/docs/virginia_class.htm) All hype aside, the fact that HMS ASTUTE is not even been fully built yet precludes any possibility it can now outperform a pre-existing system, and there is no evidence yet which can prove it will do so in the future. The production cost of the USS VIRGINIA is not some 75 percent less than the HMS ASTUTE because of the size of the production run. On the contrary, the USS VIRGINIA also had a cost overrun from about 1.8 billion dollars to about 2.25 billion dollars because of low production procurements like that of the HMS ASTUTE. The HMS ASTUTE is costing four times more money than the USS VIRGINIA because MOD and BAE Systems botched and failed the initial efforts to design and build the submarine. HMS ASTUTE was originally conceived as a follow-on and improved Batch 2 of the TRAFALGAR CLASS SSN. Because the new Rolls Royce nuclear powerplant was too large to fit within the TRAFALGAR CLASS hull, the new design began with the intention of bulging the hull around the power plant. When it later became all too apparent there were too many problems stemming from the bulging design, the design had to then be changed by making the hull large enough in diameter to encompass the new powerplant without leaving a bulge in the hull. Too make a long story short, when it came time to design and build this much larger design, BAE Systems discovered the many years long hiatus in new submarine designs left BAE Systems and MOD without services of the long departed personnel and expertise needed to effeciently design and build a nuclear submarine. Huge delays and corresponding cost overruns accumulated as design systems failed, modular hulls and component systems had to be rebuilt when they failed to match in joinery during assemblies, welds had to be rewelded after inspections found many faulty welds, and resultant duplicative materials orders spiralled costs. Historically, British submarines already tended to cost far more than submarines built in other nations because of the British tradition of building the pressure hull and only then fitting out the interior by dragging the equipement through the hatches and installing it using very costly custom fitting. BAE Systems tried to use the modular and concurrent fitting out building methods used by the Americans, Germans, and Swedes; but they failed in the efforts. Finally, MOD resorted in the last instance before cancellation of the ASTUTE CLASS to asking the Americans for help in fixing the problem by assisting in the design and production of the ASTUTE CLASS. General Dynamics, Electric Boats assigned its desgin and production personnel to provide the necessary expertise needed to complete the task. HMS ASTUTE was then constructed using the Electric Boat technique of using building the pressure hull in modular sections to speed concurrent production, reduce costs, and eliminate the problems with joinery of modules. In the end, the extraordinary high cost of the ASTUTE CLASS is due to the fundamental failures of the design and production capabilities and inexperience of the MOD and BAE Systems. It remains to be seen whether or not the ASTUTE CLASS was sufficiently well designed and constructed to meet or exceed the publicity which preceded its construction and operational deployments. Yes, it is always a GRAVE mistake to talk too much about our submarines' Capabilities & Limitations. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > In regard to the comment, "of course none of us have exact details, at > least not to be able to broadcast to the world," nothing could be further [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > have already obtained most of what they need to know about the sonar > system from French sources. >Yes, it is always a GRAVE mistake to talk too much about our submarines' >Capabilities & Limitations. I suspect that technical data about the Astute, like USN submarines, is very strictly controlled. What gets out into the public domain is what the powers that be want to be known and no more. Big nuclear submarines are a deterrent force, that doesn't work unless a prospective enemy knows something about them. -- Julian Richards www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV" THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL >>>HMS ASTUTE was obsolescent by comparison to the VIRGINIA CLASS the day it >>>was launched, so it is hardly "ahead" at all, except in astronomical cost [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] >designed and constructed to meet or exceed the publicity which preceded its >construction and operational deployments. Sounds like its a real burr up your arse! Bitter! Bitter! Bitter! SignatureBryn I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but I can't be arsed. Remove the gremlins to email me... >>>>HMS ASTUTE was obsolescent by comparison to the VIRGINIA CLASS the day >>>>it [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > > Bitter! Bitter! Bitter! If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in question will not actually become HMS anything until she is commissioned. Many ships and boats have been renamed after being re-commissioned. All that would be correct to say at present is that a hull that is the lead ship for the Astute class has been completed but is, as yet, officially unnamed. SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). ... > If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in question > will not actually become HMS anything until she is commissioned. Many > ships and boats have been renamed after being re-commissioned. All that > would be correct to say at present is that a hull that is the lead ship > for the Astute class has been completed but is, as yet, officially > unnamed. She has been named Astute, and will become HMS Astute when commissioned. http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9325 SignatureDavid Biddulph > ... >> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in question [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > She has been named Astute, and will become HMS Astute when commissioned. > http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9325 Sorry but no. A ship is only given a hull number and is not even a navy ship until the navy accepts her after trials. Until then she is not commissioned into the navy. I'll give you a little example. A shore base is commissioned and thus has HMS before its name. i.e. HMS Cochrane was the Rosyth Base name and Artificer Training was conducted on a ship moored at a certain berth in the Dockyard and whatever ship that happened to be became, "HMS Caledonia". While I was employed in the Dockyard we refitted a fair number of both City Class and Colonial Class Cruisers. Many of these were commissioned for a time as, "HMS Caledonia", then Decommissioned, moved into the yard proper for refit and then were recommisioned with their former name after refit. New builds are NOT named until launched and are not commissioned until they are accepted by the RN after sea trials. SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). >> ... >>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in question [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> for the Astute class has been completed but is, as yet, officially >>> unnamed. >> She has been named Astute, and will become HMS Astute when commissioned. >> http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9325 > Sorry but no. A ship is only given a hull number and is not even a navy > ship until the navy accepts her after trials. Until then she is not > commissioned into the navy. ... > New builds are NOT named until launched and are not commissioned until > they are accepted by the RN after sea trials. Doesn't your last sentence agree with what I (and the RN) said? SignatureDavid Biddulph >>> ... >>>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Doesn't your last sentence agree with what I (and the RN) said? Plus the vessels assembled in Devonshire Hall are not 'launched' in the way off slips ... but are trundled gently through the doors onto the synchrolift <http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/products/shiplift_systems/default.jsp> which lowers them into the water. Provided all sea-cocks are closed, and the weight-and-balance folk have done their sums correctly, the new hull will float level in pitch and roll. {Note this first evolution of a new build is done very...very ..very .. slowly} The syncrolift equipment at Barrow is 162m long and has a lift capacity of 24 KT, http://www.ssa.org.uk/s071.htm As I understand it; the hull , bearing the new name, remains the property of the shipyard and title and risk is not transferred until the F640 gets signed ... after SATs. Hopefully there's a hugumous stage payment at the 'she floats' milestone, SignatureBrian -- > >>> ... > >>>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > The syncrolift equipment at Barrow is 162m long and has a lift capacity of > 24 KT,http://www.ssa.org.uk/s071.htm > As I understand it; the hull , bearing the new name, remains the property of > the shipyard and title and risk is not transferred until the F640 gets > signed ... after SATs. > Hopefully there's a hugumous stage payment at the 'she floats' milestone, > > Brian ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Going back to the "Bryan" who remarked that the U.K. has to get permission from the U.S. to fire a nuke missile out of the Astute class battle wagon.... Let's be realistic. When the enemy starts playing hardball, Britain as well as Israel are going to sidestep "American permission" and go for the gusto. This is what's scary about the Jewish-Iranian face off. The two countries are so close, there is not sufficient warning of a perceived attack for the Jews to seek "American permission." Cheers, David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> ... >>>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Doesn't your last sentence agree with what I (and the RN) said? NO. >> ... >>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in question [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > until launched and are not commissioned until they are accepted by the RN > after sea trials. Nevertheless, Queen Elizabeth II approved the names for the first boats of the ASTUTE Class on dates from March 2007 through May 2007, despite any Royal Navy traditions you care to name. In addition, the Royal Navy is using the names HMS HMS ASTUTE, HMS AMBUSH, HMS ARTFUL, and HMS AUDACIOUS in many of their press releases and other public documents. Perhaps you would care to correct Her Majesty and the Royal Navy for their abuse of the tradition. >> ... >>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in question [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >New builds are NOT named until launched and are not commissioned until they >are accepted by the RN after sea trials. Ship naming takes place _before_ acceptance and usually at the launch. "I name this ship ASTUTE, may god bless her and all who sail in her". I have a commemorative item from the naming ceremony of HMS OCEAN, and that took place long before she was even fitted out. I also stood by HMS FOX when she was building at Brooke Marine and she was referred to in all naval documents as HMS FOX following her launch. The Yard may have used numbers, but the Navy didn't. SignatureRegards Malcolm HMS SOLEBAY ASSOCIATION HTTP://www.solebay.org >>> ... >>>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > in all naval documents as HMS FOX following her launch. The Yard may > have used numbers, but the Navy didn't. They may indeed use a name for the hull but it is not an official name for the very good reason it is not yet a naval vessel until it is commissioned. Note the launcher says, "I name this ship, 'Astute'" and not "I name this ship HMS Astute". It is rather like the Baptism of a child in a religion not recognised as a registrar. The child only becomes official after it is officially registered. As I already pointed out the Astute could well be named something else when commissioned. As, for example, "HMS Gambia", was when she berthed in Rosyth, was decommissioned and then re-commissioned as, "HMS Caledonia", served as a training ship for Artificers and was again de-commissioned, refitted and re-commissioned as HMS Gambia after sea trials. While under refit her name was rather confused even although there was another ship at her old berth with her old name, "HMS Caledonia". Furthermore, it was not unknown for civilian liners to be pressed into service in war time and commissioned under a different name to that given at her launch.. See here one example - http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/7292.html I served some of my apprenticeship on that HMS Artifex. SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). >>>> ... >>>>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>>commissioned >>>into the navy. <SNIPPED> >>>New builds are NOT named until launched and are not commissioned until >>>they [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/7292.html >I served some of my apprenticeship on that HMS Artifex. I agree that vessels building do not officially become part of the RN until completion of acceptance trials. However, these days, once a ship intended for the Royal Navy (not ships taken up form civilian service) is named the name is not changed. The mug that I have from the HMS OCEAN naming ceremony clearly states HMS OCEAN. When I joined FOX at Brooke Marine she had only just been launched (by Lady Dowsett) my appointment was very clearly to "HMS FOX advance party". The appointment of Lt Cdr Dathan was clearly "HMS FOX in command" even though she was basically a bare hull. As for CALEDONIA/GAMBIA, HMS CALEDONIA was shore establishment from about 1940, as I recall. I bow to your local knowledge about the renaming of GAMBIA although I am puzzled as to why there would be both a shore establishment and a ship with the same name. What period are we talking about? SignatureRegards Malcolm HMS SOLEBAY ASSOCIATION HTTP://www.solebay.org >>>>> ... >>>>>> If we wish to be real picky we could point out that the hull in [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > shore establishment and a ship with the same name. What period are we > talking about? I may have made a small error. The Ship(s), were part of the shore base. Remember too that we had HMS Caledonia and HMS Cochrane as shore bases. My memory may be playing tricks and I got the wrong one but as I remember - In the late 1940s right into the 1960s HMS Caledonia was on land above, (North), of Rosyth Dockyard and HMS Cochrane was a ship berthed in the yard and used as the training ship for artificers. I'm not sure when the Shore base moved from North of the yard to land to the East of the Yard but it must have been either late 1960s or early 1970s. Remember too there was HMS Lochinvar, (Fisheries Protection Squadron base. If memory serves was not HMS Caledonia also once a WRENs base? SignatureRobert Peffers, Kelty, Fife, Scotland, (UK). |
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