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History Forum / General / British History / August 2007No "Activist" Interpretation Of The Laws
"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823) Reference: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Memorial Edition, Lipscomb and Bergh, eds., vol. 15 (450) > "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, > therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. > Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties > which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure." > > -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823) you mean like how he wrote "all men are created equal" yet owned dozens of slaves? >> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, >> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you mean like how he wrote "all men are created equal" yet owned dozens of > slaves? I think they all believed a slave was equal to (what?) 3/5ths of a man. Remember they were all, at that time, Englishmen so such thinking came natural to them. >>> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, >>> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Remember they were all, at that time, Englishmen so such thinking came > natural to them. No slaves in England at that time. The last villein died in 1600. In 1772 slavery was declared illegal in England by the Lord Chief Justice, Justice Mansfield. It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by a desire of rich slave owners to remain rich.  SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> I think they all believed a slave was equal to (what?) 3/5ths of a man. >> Remember they were all, at that time, Englishmen so such thinking came [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by a >desire of rich slave owners to remain rich. Don't confuse the poor boy with facts, William. He'll start complaining about how cruelly the Royal Navy oppressed the honest merchants and businessmen of the United States by bothering the slave trade next.... SignatureThe nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk >>> I think they all believed a slave was equal to (what?) 3/5ths of a man. >>> Remember they were all, at that time, Englishmen so such thinking came [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > about how cruelly the Royal Navy oppressed the honest merchants and > businessmen of the United States by bothering the slave trade next.... Please read my response to Mister Black, then away to boil your head. > It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by a > desire of rich slave owners to remain rich. not very arguable indeed. the main trouble makers were in Boston and philadelphia where slavery was very limited. a better case can be made for land, many of the american colonies were "proprietary" types . they operated under system like the brits set up in ireland with large absentee landlords owning them and tennent farmers living there. with the success of the revolution all those tennents became land owners. here in the baystate they were just natural trouble makers, as befits a land settled by puritans. in american history we learn about the "intolerable acts" passed by parliment which when examined closely don't seem so unfair. the brits got lucky losing america, if we were still part of it ,you would have a very big tail on a rather small dog. >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by >> a >> desire of rich slave owners to remain rich. > > not very arguable indeed. the main trouble makers were in Boston and > philadelphia where slavery was very limited. You didn't read what I wrote. The trouble makers in the North who started it seem to have made their money from shipping and the Royal Navy would probably have made short work of their income supply. What financed them was the rich planters of the South who realised that slavery was on the way out in British possessions and so financed the revolutionaries for their own reasons, which had very little to do with ideals. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by >>> a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > revolutionaries for their own reasons, which had very little to do with > ideals. Aren't you picturing the South as it was during the heyday of cotton? You do know that it was not economically feasible to raise cotton (or have vast numbers of slaves) until the invention of the cotton gin, an invention that didn't occur until well after the Revolutionary War. If you believe differently, best recheck your sources. If you are having the Merks on again, a good start! >>>> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven >>>> by a [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > If you believe differently, best recheck your sources. > If you are having the Merks on again, a good start! Virginia tobacco planters. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>>> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven >>>>> by a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Virginia tobacco planters. Point taken. But the real surge in British supplied slaves was when the cotton fields of the South opened up. Many an Englishman got rich on that boom. > >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by > >> a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > revolutionaries for their own reasons, which had very little to do with > ideals. no the "rich planters of the south" didn't bank roll them.that is just revisionism of the worst sort. slavery appologists invented that lie to blame slavery on the north. the rich in new england all fled to canada when england evacuated boston. the alarm companies{minutemen} were made up of farmers not ship owners. >> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven > by [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the rich in new england all fled to canada when england evacuated boston. > the alarm companies{minutemen} were made up of farmers not ship owners. Have you noticed that there has been no mention by Mister Black of England's huge role in the international slave trade? >>> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven >> by [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Have you noticed that there has been no mention by Mister Black of > England's huge role in the international slave trade? I accept absolutely that many English merchants made shed loads of cash from 'the middle passage'. One of the better points things about growing up in Hull is that the whole slavery business tends to have a very important place in most of the local schools' history curriculum (curricula?>, along with the English Civil Wars... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was >>>> >> driven [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > schools' history curriculum (curricula?>, along with the English Civil > Wars... Now, now, Mister Black. How shall we ever keep the pot boiling if you go all reasonable on me? ;=) >>>>> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was >>>>> >> driven [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > How shall we ever keep the pot boiling if you go all reasonable on me? > ;=) The Socialism (and good sense) usually overwhelms the nationalism. I've met the English ruling classes. As a general rule they're charming, ruthless, devious and manipulative. I rather like them. But in the words of the late President Lyndon Bains Johnson "I'd rather have them inside the tent piss out than outside the tent pissing in" SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. No... It's Lyndon Baines Johnson. AND: "It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in." He was referring to legendary FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. Quoted in _The New York Times_, 31 October 1971. Black is getting sloppy again... It's the Socialism [and lack of Good Sense]. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> Now, now, Mister Black. >> How shall we ever keep the pot boiling if you go all reasonable on me? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > [sic] "I'd rather have them [sic] inside the tent piss [sic] out than > outside the tent pissing in" [sic] > No... > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> [sic] "I'd rather have them [sic] inside the tent piss [sic] out than >> outside the tent pissing in" [sic] Oh dear. He's getting all uppity again. I'm going to have to humiliate him again aren't I... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>>>> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was >>>>>> >> driven [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > As a general rule they're charming, ruthless, devious and manipulative. ****************************************************** Characteristics which helped immensely in building their great empire. (You left out arrogant and overbearing) > I rather like them. > > But in the words of the late President Lyndon Bains Johnson "I'd rather > have them inside the tent piss out than outside the tent pissing in" >> As a general rule they're charming, ruthless, devious and manipulative. > ****************************************************** > > Characteristics which helped immensely in building their great empire. > (You left out arrogant and overbearing) That's the point, they're neither arrogant or overbearing. That tends to be the behaviour of the lower orders of British (and I do mean British and not English, ever met a Scotsman in a position of minor authority?) society when placed in positions of authority. The genuine article is usually surprised if people don't do what they want, and also often at something of a loss, which is why they take the lower orders along for the ride... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > That's the point, they're neither arrogant or overbearing. > > That tends to be the behaviour of the lower orders of British (and I do mean > British and not English, ever met a Scotsman in a position of minor > authority?) society when placed in positions of authority. It's human nature, not a British trait. The less control people think they have over their own lives/destiny, the more they seek to control their personal fiefdoms by lording it over others. Drones have to consolidate auth- ority...what else do they have? Certainly not job satis- faction. Deirdre >> That's the point, they're neither arrogant or overbearing. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ority...what else do they have? Certainly not job satis- > faction. Ah - someone else who has clearly had the privilige of buying a humble railway ticket from a Romanian vendor circa 1973. If you think that's bad you should try getting a speeding ticket from a Bulgarian pig of the same era. That said, I've always felt I was born too late for my own vocation. I would have been in my element as a slave-driver in the cotton or tobacco fields of the south before those bloody do-gooders wrecked it for everyone. > >> That's the point, they're neither arrogant or overbearing. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I would have been in my element as a slave-driver in the cotton or tobacco > fields of the south before those bloody do-gooders wrecked it for everyone. Try importing anything into the Phillipines >>> That's the point, they're neither arrogant or overbearing. >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > fields of the south before those bloody do-gooders wrecked it for > everyone. You could always go oppress a Maori or two. > > It's human nature, not a British trait. The less control > > people think they have over their own lives/destiny, the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ah - someone else who has clearly had the privilige of buying a humble > railway ticket from a Romanian vendor circa 1973. Actually, it was a French customs official circa 1974, an Italian police records department circa 1979, various con- sular offices and airline counter drones for various years, along with the entire Illinois DMV, every sales drone in the UK and most of Air Mexicana's baggage handling staff. I concede there's little to distinguish any of them from their Romanian counterpart...save for the fact that your wee vendor is probably retired and the others are all still plying their wiles on the unwary. > That said, I've always felt I was born too late for my own vocation. > I would have been in my element as a slave-driver in the cotton or tobacco > fields of the south before those bloody do-gooders wrecked it for everyone. I'm happy to hear someone has the knack, for myself, I _hate_ supervising other people. Deirdre >>> As a general rule they're charming, ruthless, devious and manipulative. >> ****************************************************** [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > want, and also often at something of a loss, which is why they take the > lower orders along for the ride... Did you really have to incite the Scots to rage? It will be weeks before things settle down. (BTW, you ever see a German in a position of minor authority) > I accept absolutely that many English merchants made shed loads of cash from > 'the middle passage'. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > schools' history curriculum (curricula?>, along with the English Civil > Wars... Salem Mass , which bill's itself as 'the witch city' for the witch trials and executions that took place there, makes good money off the tourism they attract, business was really piracy and slave trading, two facets of its history they pointedly ignore. > >> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven > > by [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Have you noticed that there has been no mention by Mister Black of England's > huge role in the international slave trade? england participated in it, as did the dutch and americans. byt it was the b rits who ended it. when england outlawed it they stopped everybody's ships. give credit where credit is due. >> >> >> It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was > driven [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > when england outlawed it they stopped everybody's ships. > give credit where credit is due. Ray, this is Usenet. Hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies are the order of the day here. > Ray, this is Usenet. > Hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies are the order of the day here. One of the most ridiculous comments ever posted. Obviously you made that up, as all relevant statistics show the opposite is true. Hal >> Ray, this is Usenet. >> Hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies are the order of the day here. > > One of the most ridiculous comments ever posted. Obviously you made > that up, as all relevant statistics show the opposite is true. As I said, Hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies are the order of the day here. Thank you for that excellent example of the truth of my statement. > >> Ray, this is Usenet. > >> Hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies are the order of the day here. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > day here. > Thank you for that excellent example of the truth of my statement. I forgot to demand that you give a cite to refute my facts, which are agreed to by the rest of the civilized world. Hal >> >> Ray, this is Usenet. >> >> Hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies are the order of the day [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I forgot to demand that you give a cite to refute my facts, which are > agreed to by the rest of the civilized world. And all the lurkers are on your side as well............ [snip] > in american history we learn about the "intolerable acts" passed by > parliment which when examined closely don't seem so unfair. > the brits got lucky losing america, if we were still part of it ,you would > have a very big tail on a rather small dog. An attempt to keep slavery may have been one cause of the Revolution. Others could be - difficulty of bridery, the British Minister were 3 months journey away. Weak government - when the cats away the mice will play. George III was the King officially declared mad. Andrew Swallow > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Andrew Swallow it was parliment who america rebelled against. GW and his officers drank a toast to the health of KGIII everyday until the DOI was issud. the colonies also attempted to appeal directly to the king but he chose to let parliment handle things. >>>> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, >>>> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No slaves in England at that time. Looking at English history to come, it would boil down to your definition of a slave. You may not have had slaves in England (I'll leave the Googling of that to others) but you certainly enslaved economically peoples all over the world. (India, Africa, the Middle East, the Far East.) You buggers were everywhere. Further, youi guys were VERY active in the slave trade, well into the 19th century.. And, many of the Caribbean Islands that were under your rule had slaves aplenty. > The last villein died in 1600. > In 1772 slavery was declared illegal in England by the Lord Chief Justice, > Justice Mansfield. > It is arguable (but not very) that the American revolution was driven by a > desire of rich slave owners to remain rich. No I think it more a desire for rich merchants and farmers to remain rich. There weren't all that many slaves during and before the Revolutionary War period. Eli Whitney changed all that of course. (And no, by gawd, I'll give no cites) > >>>> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, > >>>> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Eli Whitney changed all that of course. > (And no, by gawd, I'll give no cites) The cotton gin was later invented by the American inventor Eli Whitney in 1793 to mechanize the production of cotton fiber. The invention was granted a patent on March 14, 1794. The cotton gin was credited for increasing assets in the American economy. and yes. there were no slaves in england proper but they certainly had plenty in jamaica and barbados. >> >>>> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, >> >>>> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > and yes. there were no slaves in england proper but they certainly had > plenty in jamaica and Barbados. Mister Black is truly outrageous in his slags. He implied that some English judge outlawed slavery in old Blighty toward the end of the 19th century. Read what the Columbia Encyclopedia has to say on the subject. It was the Abolition Act of 1833. note 1833, that outlawed slavery in the British Empire. All this a scant 30 years before slavery was outlawed in the US. Of course British economic slavery continued unabated until well into the Twentieth Century. **************************************** British humanitarians who had incorporated the abolition of slavery into their conception of Christianity labored successfully to outlaw (1807) the British slave trade. These same men, especially William Wilberforce , Thomas Clarkson , Zachary Macaulay, and Lord Brougham (Henry Peter Brougham ), continued to work for the abolition of slavery throughout the British Empire, which was finally effected with the Abolition Act of 1833. However, according to some writers, the British, in abolishing slavery, were primarily motivated by economic, not humanitarian, interests. These critics argued that, while the institution produced great wealth under the mercantilist system, it became unprofitable with the rise of industrial capitalism, which displaced mercantilism early in the 19th cent. At any rate, the abolition legislation of 1833 was followed by the gradual abolition of slavery in all lands under British control, principally by the device of invalidating the legality of slavery and removing its legal safeguards, usually by recompensing the owners. > Mister Black is truly outrageous in his slags. > He implied that some English judge outlawed slavery in old Blighty toward > the end of the 19th century. Middle of the eighteenth century. > Read what the Columbia Encyclopedia has to say on the subject. > It was the Abolition Act of 1833. note 1833, that outlawed slavery in the > British Empire. > All this a scant 30 years before slavery was outlawed in the US. Well no. It was abolished in England, there was never any slavery in Scotland. > Of course British economic slavery continued unabated until well into the > Twentieth Century. I know you'll just love this bit, but... Cite please. I know rather a lot about ghow the British Empire was financed. They didn't enslave anyone much, just taxed them. <rather biased twaddle snipped> SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> Mister Black is truly outrageous in his slags. >> He implied that some English judge outlawed slavery in old Blighty toward [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It was abolished in England, there was never any slavery in Scotland. Well yes. Slavery continued in your "Colonies" until the Abolution Act was passsd. >> Of course British economic slavery continued unabated until well into the >> Twentieth Century. > > I know you'll just love this bit, but... > > Cite please. Did I not mention India, Africa, the Caribbean, the Middle East, and the Far East? Surely you remember. It was a part of my origina; message, the message you took great care to edit out all which did not supprot your argument.. > I know rather a lot about ghow the British Empire was financed. They > didn't enslave anyone much, just taxed them. > > <rather biased twaddle snipped> Biased Twiddle? This verbatim quote from the Columbia Encyclopedia is Bias Twiddle? ******************************************************* British humanitarians who had incorporated the abolition of slavery into their conception of Christianity labored successfully to outlaw (1807) the British slave trade. These same men, especially William Wilberforce , Thomas Clarkson , Zachary Macaulay, and Lord Brougham (Henry Peter Brougham ), continued to work for the abolition of slavery throughout the British Empire, which was finally effected with the Abolition Act of 1833. However, according to some writers, the British, in abolishing slavery, were primarily motivated by economic, not humanitarian, interests. These critics argued that, while the institution produced great wealth under the mercantilist system, it became unprofitable with the rise of industrial capitalism, which displaced mercantilism early in the 19th cent. At any rate, the abolition legislation of 1833 was followed by the gradual abolition of slavery in all lands under British control, principally by the device of invalidating the legality of slavery and removing its legal safeguards, usually by recompensing the owners. >>> Mister Black is truly outrageous in his slags. >>> He implied that some English judge outlawed slavery in old Blighty [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Did I not mention India, Africa, the Caribbean, the Middle East, and the > Far East? As I said in another post India, Africa and the Far and Middle East were mainly trading colonies at that time. Some of them traded slaves... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>> Mister Black is truly outrageous in his slags. >>>> He implied that some English judge outlawed slavery in old Blighty [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Some of them traded slaves... You truly are a master at this. I've not read such cleverly worded evasions in many a long year. You just slid right by my mentioning the Caribbean (where you good people held and worked many a slave).. I also liked that "Trading Colonies" bit. And yes they were "Trading Colonies". The "Trading Colonies" sold the raw materials at a deep discount to England (The only ones to whom they were allowed to sell) who then manufactured the finished goods and sold them to the "Trading Colonies" at a very steep price. All foreign competition, naturally, was prohibited. (Over to you) Yes, Black The Red has learned to be QUITE a slippery customer over the years... A USENET Artful Dodger. Since he's an Englishman, he had a head start. DSH <baldersnip> > You truly are a master at this. > I've not read such cleverly worded evasions in many a long year. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > a very steep price. All foreign competition, naturally, was prohibited. > (Over to you) > Yes, Black The Red has learned to be QUITE a slippery customer over the > years... > > A USENET Artful Dodger. > > Since he's an Englishman, he had a head start. We are Perfidious Albion. Beware the gilded assassins and murderous popinjays of empire lest you fall once more under our baleful influence. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> Yes, Black The Red has learned to be QUITE a slippery customer over >> the years... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > We are Perfidious Albion. Not to mention Shifty Villa and Untrustworthy City. SignatureJohn Briggs He can play Fu Manchu too... A Multi-Cultural Artful Dodger. DSH >> Yes, Black The Red has learned to be QUITE a slippery customer over the >> years... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Beware the gilded assassins and murderous popinjays of empire lest you > fall once more under our baleful influence. > Yes, Black The Red has learned to be QUITE a slippery customer over the > years... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > DSH <Snip> Three things I believe about Mister Black: 1. He is very intelligent 2. He has a keen sense of humor 3. He has the gift of gab I would almost suspect he has Irish antecedents. > You truly are a master at this. I know. > I've not read such cleverly worded evasions in many a long year. It's fun isn't it. > You just slid right by my mentioning the Caribbean (where you good people > held and worked many a slave).. While there was plenty of money to be made there it remained a 'sideshow' in both British Empires. > I also liked that "Trading Colonies" bit. > And yes they were "Trading Colonies". > The "Trading Colonies" sold the raw materials at a deep discount to > England (The only ones to whom they were allowed to sell) who then > manufactured the finished goods and sold them to the "Trading Colonies" at > a very steep price. All foreign competition, naturally, was prohibited. That's very hard before the American Revolution as the British didn't have any territory to forbid foreign trade within. The huge market of India was supplied by several nations until well after 1776, indeed the British fought a whole series of wars before they controled the whole of the subcontinent, if anyone can be ever said to control certain areas of it, as we're finding out yet again at the moment... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> You truly are a master at this. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > That's very hard before the American Revolution as the British didn't have > any territory to forbid foreign trade within. Well, there was the American Colonies. Oh and Ireland. (But you knew that) > The huge market of India was supplied by several nations until well after > 1776, indeed the British fought a whole series of wars before they > controled the whole of the subcontinent, if anyone can be ever said to > control certain areas of it, as we're finding out yet again at the > moment... True, the Redcoats ran just about everyone out of India. (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British Army and was stationed in India) Have you been to the Isle of Man? DSH > (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British Army and > was stationed in India) >> That's very hard before the American Revolution as the British didn't >> have any territory to forbid foreign trade within. > > Well, there was the American Colonies. > Oh and Ireland. > (But you knew that) Not sure how Irish trade was managed, but I doubt it was exclusively carried in British ships in the way American trade was, although there were tarifts on Irish goods going into England (but not Scotland for some reason). Ireland had its own parliament. Catholics were bared from sitting in it from 1652 and I can't see there being an awful lot of pressure to pauperise the Protestant ascendancy there. >> The huge market of India was supplied by several nations until well after >> 1776, indeed the British fought a whole series of wars before they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > True, the Redcoats ran just about everyone out of India. There were plenty to run out. But Pondicherry (now Puducherry, but it sounds the same) remained French and Goa remained Portugese. > (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British Army and > was stationed in India) Any idea where? I spend a lot of time in India. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. Pronounced how in Brit English -- RP Only? DSH > But Pondicherry (now Puducherry, but it sounds the same) > remained French and Goa remained Portugese. [sic] Black The Blind Boar > Pronounced how in Brit English -- RP Only? Why not go there and find out? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>> That's very hard before the American Revolution as the British didn't >>> have any territory to forbid foreign trade within. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Any idea where? > I spend a lot of time in India. None whatsoever. My grandfather was the most closed mouthed man about family matters you'd ever meet. When he passed, the local paper went to the morgue file for details to put in the obit, only to find he had emptied the contents! All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) rose to the rank of Colonel. He also served in the Heavy Brigade at the Battle of Balaclava (supposedly) None of this can be confirmed. However, having said all this, my entire family loves Chutney and Curry, my grandfather having prepared dishes with these condiments quite often. My grandmother, being Irish, wouldn't have the "Foul Stench" on her hands or in her nostrils. Further, we all drink tea like there is no tomorrow. Again, my father and aunt grew up on hot tea and passed the habit on to the children. . >>> (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British Army >>> and was stationed in India) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > He also served in the Heavy Brigade at the Battle of Balaclava > (supposedly) None of this can be confirmed. Why not? Do you know his name? If so, look in the Army Lists. (JACK. His name would appear in the Army Lists of the period, I suppose, Aunt Augusta? LADY BRACKNELL. The General was essentially a man of peace, except in his domestic life. But I have no doubt his name would appear in any military directory.) SignatureJohn Briggs >>>> (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British Army >>>> and was stationed in India) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why not? Do you know his name? If so, look in the Army Lists. Great idea. How do I go about gaining access to the Army Lists? Is there a website? (BTW, Tis a wise Manxman what knows his great grandfather's name) ;=) >>>>> (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British >>>>> Army and was stationed in India) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Great idea. > How do I go about gaining access to the Army Lists? They are directories published annually - which is why Jack Worthing had a run of them. They are to be found in libraries - admittedly more often in the UK than elsewhere... but genealogical libraries may well have sets. Unfortunately, this is one of the few not cross-posted to a genealogical group. > Is there a website? I doubt it - but they shouldn't be too difficult to computerise. > (BTW, Tis a wise Manxman what knows his great grandfather's name) > ;=) No comment :-) SignatureJohn Briggs >>>>>> (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British >>>>>> Army and was stationed in India) [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Unfortunately, this is one of the few not cross-posted to a genealogical > group. The "Church of Latter Day Saints" (LDS) aka 'Mormons' are heavily into the Genealogy 'thing'... without commenting on the reasons behind this interest; _all_ 'Mormon' churches have an attached 'Family History Library' staffed on a voluntary basis by members. The Library offer their facilities to anybody. [Not just members of their church .... in the UK -becasue of tax regime - they make no charge for use of their facility ... but contibutions to the charity itself IIRC are gratefully received] If one goes to such a centre - the staff will help you locate your requirement be it an Army List or a baptism register ...or whatever. The central Salt Lake City Library has a huge repositiry of microfilmed 'genealogical' records and copies can be forwarded to your local LDS church/library. The more information one brings to the libray; the easier the search ... Manx born; Army, Battle of Balaclava, India ... , it might take a week or two of two~three hour visits but you might see a (microfilm) of his birth record, marriage record, commisioning / attestation record .... quite fascinating. >> Is there a website? > > I doubt it - but they shouldn't be too difficult to computerise. It isn't to difficult; but it's bl**dy tedious .... IIRC; the UK 1881 census (released 1981) took 10~15 years of transcribing / verifying effort by unpaid volunteers before it was available as a data-base. >> (BTW, Tis a wise Manxman what knows his great grandfather's name) >> ;=) > > No comment :-) SignatureBrian > >>>>>> (BTW, my great grandfather, the Manxman, served in the British > >>>>>> Army and was stationed in India) [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Brian You might try their basic site anyway http://www.familysearch.org/ or this one which is I think not Mormon http://genealogy.com/index_n.html And thanks to you as well, Jack > "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message Thanks, guys. You've given me some great ideas. > All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) rose to > the rank of Colonel. > He also served in the Heavy Brigade at the Battle of Balaclava > (supposedly) Well the names of the officers whocharged with the Heavy Brigade are known, as is the history of most officers of the period. You should be able to track them through the 'Army Lists' of the period. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Aug 27, 5:39 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > > All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) rose to > > the rank of Colonel. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Here's the local version of a kingfish. Had beans in masala sauce at my Taste of India last week. I think I 've had it on fish before. Sweet. http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007708270332 > Here's the local version of a kingfish. Had beans in masala sauce at > my Taste of India last week. I think I 've had it on fish before. > Sweet. > http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007708270332 I've just got back from a weekend's re-enactment in Sheffield where we had a seventeenth century Portuguese dish called Vindaloo, which isn't anything like the modern Vindaloo served up in Indian restaurants. Hell of a big (UK based) US Civil War re-enactment group there, Their camp was two regiments, all laid out in nice rows with the command tents with appropriate colours at the junction of the two camps. Mind you, one Confederate regiment, one Union. And they blew bloody reveille at 8:00am (although our piper made rather a row across tea time...) SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > I've just got back from a weekend's re-enactment in Sheffield where we had > a seventeenth century Portuguese dish called Vindaloo, which isn't > anything like the modern Vindaloo served up in Indian restaurants. How did it differ? > Hell of a big (UK based) US Civil War re-enactment group there, Their > camp was two regiments, all laid out in nice rows with the command tents > with appropriate colours at the junction of the two camps. Which ACW battles do they re-enact? > Mind you, one Confederate regiment, one Union. Which was sharper and more accurate? DSH > And they blew bloody reveille at 8:00am (although our piper made rather a > row across tea time...) >> I've just got back from a weekend's re-enactment in Sheffield where we >> had a seventeenth century Portuguese dish called Vindaloo, which isn't >> anything like the modern Vindaloo served up in Indian restaurants. > > How did it differ? Essentially the modern one is a very hot curry made with potatoes, because they mistranslated the name and though it was in Hindi and not Portuguese. The older one is a 'hot' pickle 'vindaloo' being a corruption of the Portuguese words for vinegar and garlic. It'll keep for months in a sealed jar was used by seventeenth century Portuguese sailors returning from Goa as rations on their ships. >> Hell of a big (UK based) US Civil War re-enactment group there, Their >> camp was two regiments, all laid out in nice rows with the command tents >> with appropriate colours at the junction of the two camps. > > Which ACW battles do they re-enact? No idea. It's not a war where I'm terribly interested in the battles. >> Mind you, one Confederate regiment, one Union. > > Which was sharper and more accurate? The Confederate infantry looked a bit too smart to me, although the company of irregular 'bushwhackers' bedded down in a small copse had a very nice display and looked suitably 'nasty' but with some nice details, like the officer in full uniform but his men is an assortment of clothing, including Union cavalry trousers, which shows that someone there has been reading some very obscure stuff indeed. (I am interested in the 'bushwhackers' and the 'redlegs') The Union infantry looked very smart, loads of nice details like stoves in tents and a very good surgeon's tent, and their cavalry drill was extremely good, although reading about the originals I have a suspicion they were possibly a bit too slick. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Aug 28, 8:51 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >> I've just got back from a weekend's re-enactment in Sheffield where we > >> had a seventeenth century Portuguese dish called Vindaloo, which isn't [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Depends upon the term of enlistment. Short term units tended to be sloppier, have the officer with the self-created uniform. The use of Federal uniforms, especially boots, when available, was a part of the Confederate supply system. The year being "recreated" would make for differences, the early Zouaves and other fancy dress ball uniforms tended to deteriorate over time. A unit from either side with lots of time in the field would look worse, probably the Confederates without shoes, but fight better. > Depends upon the term of enlistment. Short term units tended to be > sloppier, have the officer with the self-created uniform. The use of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > time. A unit from either side with lots of time in the field would > look worse, probably the Confederates without shoes, but fight better. They have, inevitably, got a web site. It's at http://www.acws.co.uk/ And is worth a look. I understand that the various USCW re-enactment units around the world co-ordinate their regimental affiliations so that when they all meet up every so often on one of the big US events (Usually when someone's making a movie so loads of cash is available) there isn't a 'clash'. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Aug 28, 11:01 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > > Depends upon the term of enlistment. Short term units tended to be > > sloppier, have the officer with the self-created uniform. The use of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Too clean, but the guy on the horse is a good Uncle Bob >> All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) rose >> to the rank of Colonel. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > known, as is the history of most officers of the period. You should > be able to track them through the 'Army Lists' of the period. It also narrows down the regiments to the Scots Greys and Inniskilling Dragoons. SignatureJohn Briggs > >> All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) rose > >> to the rank of Colonel. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > John Briggs any relation to the Enniskillen Dragoons? The Enniskillen Dragoons Fare thee well Enniskillen, fare thee well for a while And all around the borders of Erin's green isle And when the war is over we'll return in full bloom And we'll all welcome home the Enniskillen Dragoons A beautiful damsel of fame and renown A gentleman's daughter from Monaghan town As she drove by the barracks this beautiful maid Stood up in her coach to see Dragoons on parade Fare thee well Enniskillen, fare thee well for a while And all around the borders of Erin's green isle And when the war is over we'll return in full bloom And we'll all welcome home the Enniskillen Dragoons They were all dressed out like gentlemen's sons Their fine shining sabres and their carbine guns Their silver mounted pistols, she observed them full soon Because she loved an Enniskillen Dragoon Fare thee well Enniskillen, fare thee well for a while And all around the borders of Erin's green isle And when the war is over we'll return in full bloom And we'll all welcome home the Enniskillen Dragoons Flora dear Flora your pardon I crave It's now and forever that I'll be your slave Your parents have insulted both morn, night and noon Because you would wed an Enniskillen Dragoon Fare thee well Enniskillen, fare thee well for a while And all around the borders of Erin's green isle And when the war is over we'll return in full bloom And we'll all welcome home the Enniskillen Dragoons Willie dearest Willie don't heed what they say For children their parents are bound to obey But when the war is over they'll all change their tune And you'll roll me in your arms by the light of the moon Fare thee well Enniskillen, fare thee well for a while And all around the borders of Erin's green isle And when the war is over we'll return in full bloom And we'll all welcome home the Enniskillen Dragoons >>>> All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) >>>> rose to the rank of Colonel. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > any relation to the Enniskillen Dragoons? The name of the town is (now) spelt "Enniskillen", but its two regiments: 27th (Inniskilling) Regiment of Foot, and 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons, used a spelling current in the 18th century. SignatureJohn Briggs >> All I know (or think I know) is that he (the great grandfather) rose to >> the rank of Colonel. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > known, as is the history of most officers of the period. You should be > able to track them through the 'Army Lists' of the period. Thanks, WIllliam >>>>> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, >>>>> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Looking at English history to come, it would boil down to your definition > of a slave. Well, let's start with the idea of chattel slavery. that a person can belong to another person. It was illegal in England to enslave someone before the American revolution. > You may not have had slaves in England (I'll leave the Googling of that to > others) but you certainly enslaved economically peoples all over the > world. > (India, Africa, the Middle East, the Far East.) Not at that time. The English colonies in India and Africa were purely trading ventures. The first settlement in Australia was in 1788. It wasn't until after the revolt of the colonies that the British Empire started expanding and being nasty to people. Before that it was centred on America to the extent that the Indian conquests were known as 'the second British empire' for many years. > You buggers were everywhere. > Further, youi guys were VERY active in the slave trade, well into the 19th > century.. Well no. By 1807 the 'Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade' had been passed and the Royal Navy, when it could be spared from stopping the Corsican Tyrant and the devious stab in the back from the infant USA while they were doing that vital and difficult task. Anyone transporting slaves faced serious penalties from that time. > And, many of the Caribbean Islands that were under your rule had slaves > aplenty. The aforementioned act was intended to free all the slaves but due to a technicality (the slave owners had some good lawyers) the slave currently owned stayed someone's property, until 1833 anyway when the 'ASlavery Abolition Act' was passed. When did the USA abolish slavery? And how peaceful was the process? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > "Conway Caine" <ccaine@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message <Snip> > It wasn't until after the revolt of the colonies that the British Empire > started expanding and being nasty to people. Before that it was centred > on America to the extent that the Indian conquests were known as 'the > second British empire' for many years. Tell that to the Irish............ On Aug 22, 7:06 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >>> "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, > >>> therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. In order for slavery to be declared illegal one might argue that there were slaves in England when Mansfield made his ruling. Weren't there notices in the papers about absconded slaves? Did you even acknowledge in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on slavery after 1807 if there was sufficient money in it for them? The "breaking of the law" was passing personally owned slaves as brought over from America, and therefore not subject to the English law prohibiting slaves. "I must politely say your are blind to the society that was Britain in the time of slavery. Judge Mansfield said 15,000 or so in 1772, in a city with a population between 600,000 (1700) and 1,000,000 (1800), quite a few slaves for the few that could afford them. The "few" are estimated at 3% of the population, say 400,000 in all of Great Britain. Based on the 40 shilling qualification for voting for Parliament. By the way do you believe that Englishmen would break the laws on slavery after 1807 if there was sufficient money in it for them?" (Renia misunderstood my statement then, the 3% were the qualified freeholder voters, not slaves. ) William Black's response: "Goodness yes. They were shipping slaves quite late. There's even a Flashman book about it... I remember once sitting in Hull Public Library Service 'Slavery Collection' room reading up on this stuff years ago for some sort of silly wargames campaign and discovering that British merchants were certainly running slaves very late and very illegally. Of course the fact that unscrupulous people were prepared to break the law for money isn't news. " > Did you even acknowledge > in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on > slavery after 1807 if there was sufficient money in it for them? Of course I do. But the acts of criminals should not be taken as typical of any society unless you have some reasonable proof that their behaviour was considered normal, which it wasn't. The British Empire did some pretty dreadful things in its time, but over the vast majority of its possessions it did not practice chattel slavery. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> Did you even acknowledge >> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The British Empire did some pretty dreadful things in its time, but over > the vast majority of its possessions it did not practice chattel slavery. Meanwhile, Mister Livingston is apologizing away for London's role in the slave trade........ >>> Did you even acknowledge >>> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Meanwhile, Mister Livingston is apologizing away for London's role in the > slave trade........ He does stuff like that. Right now he's less popular than Boris Johnson so he needs all the votes he can get... As far as I can remember, and it's years since I read all this stuff up, the big slaving ports were Bristol, which doesn't care because they've still got all the money, and Liverpool, which wallows in victim status as a matter of policy, and never apologises for anything. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. Bingo! Black The Blind Boar roots up a truffle. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > As far as I can remember, and it's years since I read all this stuff up, > the big slaving ports were Bristol, which doesn't care because they've > still got all the money, and Liverpool, which wallows in victim status as > a matter of policy, and never apologises for anything. >>>> Did you even acknowledge >>>> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > still got all the money, and Liverpool, which wallows in victim status > as a matter of policy, and never apologises for anything. Until recently. As I recall, even Liverpool made their amends. Now if they could work up an apology for the Beetles.............. As to the Livingston comment, I was waiting for an opportunity to play this trump, an opportunity you denied me. So I decided to post it anyway. Asi es la vida. . >>>> Did you even acknowledge >>>> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > still got all the money, and Liverpool, which wallows in victim status > as a matter of policy, and never apologises for anything. However: <http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ism/srd/srd3.asp > <extract> On 9 December 1999 Liverpool City Council passed a formal motion apologising for the City’s part in the slave trade. It was unanimously agreed that Liverpool acknowledges its responsibility for its involvement in three centuries of the slave trade. The City Council has made an unreserved apology for Liverpool’s involvement and the continual effect of slavery on Liverpool’s black communities. </extract> When did a Tyke let facts interfer with his prejudices? [You can always tell a Yorkshire man; you just can't tell 'em much!"] SignatureBrian >>>>> Did you even acknowledge >>>>> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws on [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > unreserved apology for Liverpool's involvement and the continual effect of > slavery on Liverpool's black communities. I stand corrected. Took 'em long enough... Like I said, I grew up in Hull. http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=221,95664&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL http://www.hull.ac.uk/wise/ SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. Fair Enough. Even Blind Boars can be corrected and admonished. DSH >>>>>> Did you even acknowledge >>>>>> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > http://www.hull.ac.uk/wise/ > Fair Enough. > > Even Blind Boars can be corrected and admonished. Do you spend much time correcting and admonishing hogs? big snip ... >>> As far as I can remember, and it's years since I read all this stuff >>> up, the big slaving ports were Bristol, which doesn't care because [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Like I said, I grew up in Hull. That's allright Willima, you can't be blamed as it wasn't in your control. SignatureBrian ex-patriate Scouse performing his missionary duties as taught at School; - 'In this sign conquer!' said the Teacher holding up the city's coat-of-arms. "Ite! Schola est" >>>>>> Did you even acknowledge >>>>>> in a thread on ahb on May 10th that Englishmen would break the laws [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Like I said, I grew up in Hull. Yet you have overcome the limitations imposed on you by that traumatic experience and have managed to fare very well. Good on you! "Conway Caine" <ccaine@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:5g3zi.452924$p47.280517@bgtnsc04- >> you mean like how he wrote "all men are created equal" yet owned dozens >> of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Remember they were all, at that time, Englishmen so such thinking came > natural to them. I remember reading somewhere that the christiancrazies of the time decided that a negro couldn't get into heaven in his present inferior state and would have to be reborn as a white man first. Not sure which particular bit of the bronze-age mythology collection they twisted about to arrive at that conclusion. Seems the negros accepted it - it was in the Bible and must be true. Which reminds me - I watched a documentary about christiancrazies in the US last night as it happens. There was a particularly repugnant slob who was informing us in the usual screaming drooling manner that it was christians and christian morality [sic] that founded and built the country. He seemed to overlook they had to exterminate most of the occupants in order to do so. He went on to explain that homosexuality was a mortal sin blah blah blah - it was only when the credits rolled up that it was revealed that since making the program he had been excommunicated for hiring male prostitutes. God save us from religion. |
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