History Forum / General / British History / August 2007

O.K.-

I kinda started this, so I will be first to go:

All of my information (for the most part) comes from "Gardiner:
Generations and Relations" by Thomas Richard Gardiner, self-published
1991. Here is what he has to say:

"Wyllyam Gardynyr, son of (father unknown) and of (mother unknown),
born in 1450 in Midlands, Oxfordshire, England; died 1495 in The Bank,
Surrey, England. He married in 1485, in London, England to Helen
Tudor, daughter of Jasper Tudor. William Gardiner, who was born circa
1450, married Helen Tudor, first cousin to Henry VII, as found on
Betham's Genealogical Table DCX in Guildhall Library, London, England.
William Gardiner and his wife, Helen Tudor, resided on the south bank
of the Thames River just accross from the walled city of London, prior
to the establishment of any town, in an area that was then known
simply as "The Bank". His magnificent home was located somewhere
between the more recent towns of Bermondey and Southwalk in the county
of Surrey. He also retained many of his holdings in the Midlands near
Oxon Ford, now known as Oxford.

Children of Wyllyam and Heln (Tudor) Gardynyr were as follows:

2.   i. Richard Gardiner, born 1486 in London, England; died 1548 in
London, England. This Richard Gardiner may have been the eldest son of
William Gardiner and Helen Tudor. There is no document to prove this
assumption. He may have also been the father of Germain Gardiner (b.
1505) and also of Richard (b. 1507) Sargeant at Arms to Henry VIII,
who was reported to have been executed for alloegedly witholding
testimony in the trial of Anne Bolyn. Since I am unable to identifyn
this person more fully, I have not included him and his two sons to
definitely be in the line of descent from William Gardiner and Helen
Tudor, although in the book, STEPHEN GARDINER AND THE TUDOR REACTION,
the author mentions Germain as the nephew of Stephen. In another bit
of information on Germain, he was spoken of as a cousin of Stephen, so
the exact identity of these three individuals are not clear.

+3.  ii. William Gardiner, born 1488

4. iii. Steven Gardiner, born 1490 in Holborn, London, England; died
12 Nov 1555 in Whitehall, Southwark, Surrey, England. See a special
section on this Steven Gardiner. Steven has sometimes been named as
the son of John Gardiner of Bury St. Edmunds, England but there are
several things that do not fit into place on this Stephen. First of
all his first name is spelled differently. The Letters and Papers of
Henry VIII, in the manuscript section of the British Museum use the
spelling "Steven Gardynyr" just the way Steven signed his name. The
man who spelled his name Stephen was almost out of the time frame in
which "Steven" was estimated by historians to have been born. But, the
greatest bit of evidence supporting "Steven" vs. "Stephen" as the
Bishop of Winchester, is James Betham's Genealogical Table, DCX (610)
in the Guildhall Library, London, which gives Steven's parents as
William Gardiner and Helen Tudor. Although the Gardiner family name
has undergone a number of changes down through the ages, as have all
other families, the name is being carried in the computer as Gardiner,
to reduce the possibility of error in the programing of an ancestral
line.

3. WIlliam Gardiner, (Wyllyam), born 1488 in London, Live awhile in
Hertfordshire, England; died 1549 in The Grange, Bermondsey, Surrey,
England. He married 1520, in England to Elizabeth Mitchell. There
seems to be onlya alinited amount of information available on this
William Gardiner, brother of Steven, Bishop of Winchester. It is
believed that he may have been the presbyter at Canterbury whom Steven
Gardiner stopped by to visit on one of his trips back from France
which is mentioned under Steven Gardiner in this book. It was also
brought to the attention of those sitting in judgement at the
Excommunication trial of Steven Gardiner, that he had a brother
William, and this William lived for a while in Herefordshire. William
married Elizabeth Mitchell, of Yorkshire, and died in Bermondsey,
Surrey. It is quite probable that William had an older brother since
it is an Old English custom to name the second son after his father
and the eldest son after the grandfather, which this Gardiner family
has followed with remarkable consistancy down through the generations.
The  grandfather could come from either side of the family, as this
was not followed quite as closely as in the use of the father's name.
The was a Richard Gardiner, born about 1486 who was quite prominent in
the London area, who may have been an older member of this family,
which I have listed as a probability since I can find no other who
would more easily fit the situation. He was listed in the service of
Henry VIII as "Seargent at Arms"."

So, obviously, Mr. Gardiner, the author is not as astute as many on
this list and jumps (no, leaps) to many conclusions.
His main source is Betham's Genealogical Table. I am not familiar with
this document.

Dear Douglas

It might have been easier if you had indicated that you had other
material, rather than post the later references; thank you for
explaining this.

Ellen, the daughter of Jasper Tudor, married at least twice, as is
detailed in the following PRO document:

"Peter Watson, of London, draper, and William Sybson, husband of
Ellen, late the wife of William Gardyner v the Mayor, Aldermen, and
Sheriffs of London: an action by the children of William Gardyner,
deceased, to recover the portion of his son Thomas, who has entered
Westminster abbey" (C 1/252/12, dated 1501-1502).

We also see from this that William Gardiner had "children", not just a
son Thomas.

A further clue about this second marriage is provided in a second PRO
document, this time dated to between 1486-1493:

"Thomas Dra...y, of London, mercer. v William Sibson, of London,
skinner, and Elyn, his wife: debt for furs supplied to the said
Elyn" (C 1/91/5).

This latter may assist in indicating the likely terminus ante quo for
William Gardiner's death, and the date by which the Sibson marriage
had taken place.

Regards, Michael