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History Forum / General / British History / September 2007Efficacy Of Modern Torture, Motivational & Sensory Deprivation Techniques
Nonsense. Gans obviously hasn't done his homework and doesn't know the facts about Modern Torture, Motivational and Sensory Deprivation Techniques. Just another little old college professor pontificating, posing and poaching out of field -- ex cathedra. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message news:fd3lcd$3a5$1@reader1.panix.com... > Those later tortures were often aimed at extracting information > from the person being tortured. Of course this presents an > interesting psychological situation since it was well known then, > as now, that torture does not often provide relable [sic] information. > Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > interesting psychological situation since it was well known then, > > as now, that torture does not often provide relable [sic] information. the dirty little secret about torture is that it works. >> Nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > the dirty little secret about torture is that it works. Actually, it doesn't - but that doesn't seem to stop the Americans persisting with it.  SignatureJohn Briggs > >> Nonsense. > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Actually, it doesn't - but that doesn't seem to stop the Americans > persisting with it. no, it does work. and every army knows it. you might get away with a lie once. but in the end you will crack. >> >> Nonsense. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >no, it does work. and every army knows it. you might get away with a lie >once. but in the end you will crack. That simply isn't true. I'm thinking of an old Arab whose interrogator, a French captain, cut off one of his fingers with a knife every time he was asked a question and didn't answer. Instead the old man repeated the Shehad (the witnessing) - "La illaha il Allah, we Muhammed hu Rasool Allah - There is no God but God and Mohammed is His prophet..." When all his fingers and thumbs had been amputated, the Captain lost his temper, pulled out a pistol and shot him. The old Arab won my eternal respect. The Highlander Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan, togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan! > On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:57:29 -0400, "Ray O'Hara" > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > interrogator, a French captain, cut off one of his fingers with a > knife every time he was asked a question and didn't answer. What was the name of that movie? > > On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:57:29 -0400, "Ray O'Hara" > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > What was the name of that movie? the battle of algiers. > When all his fingers and thumbs had been amputated, the Captain lost > his temper, pulled out a pistol and shot him. The old Arab won my > eternal respect. You'd be worthy of more respect (as compared to none at all) were you not to tell the tale in the first person, thus rendering it incredible.... TMO > > When all his fingers and thumbs had been amputated, the Captain lost > > his temper, pulled out a pistol and shot him. The old Arab won my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > TMO There's a good recently published book on urban insurgencies (author: "Joes"?) that I gave a quick read. It compares a number of insurgencies, including Algeria. If I remember correctly, the history showed that torture was effective, but that it became such a corrosive widely known issue that it undermined the support for the war. Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. Efficacy & Political Correctness. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > There's a good recently published book on urban insurgencies (author: > "Joes"?) that I gave a quick read. It compares a number of > insurgencies, including Algeria. If I remember correctly, the history > showed that torture was effective, but that it became such a > corrosive widely known issue that it undermined the support for the > war. > Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. > > Efficacy & Political Correctness. > > DSH I suppose to some Auschwitz is just an issue of political correctness Vince Typical Left-Wing, Red-Herring Strawman ---- From the Baltimore Irish Drunk & UMD College Professor -- Vincent Brannigan -- Whose Naval Officer Parents Would Be Appalled At His Stupidity & Mean-Spirited Attacks -- Were They Alive Today. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Deus Vult D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:... > Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> corrosive widely known issue that it undermined the support for the >> war. > I suppose to some Auschwitz is just an issue of political correctness > > Vince > Typical Left-Wing, Red-Herring Strawman ---- From the Baltimore Irish Drunk > & UMD College Professor -- Vincent Brannigan -- Whose Naval Officer Parents [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:... nothing but insults no analysis no reply But Dont worry when they shove the broom handle up your backside I will protest even if you call it "political correctness" But just as a curiosity how far can you take it before you confess to whatever they want? or do only the "inferior races" tell them what they want to hear Vince >> Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Vince Hilarious! Nothing But More Balderdash, Codswallop & Strawman Red Herrings From The Left-Wing UMD College Park College Professor, Vincent Brannigan. Par For The Course... DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > when they shove the broom handle up your backside I will protest > even if you call it "political correctness" > But just as a curiosity > how far can you take it before you confess to whatever they want? > or do only the "inferior races" tell them what they want to hear > > Vince > Hilarious! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > DSH no content no answer needed. The question is does torture work on you or not? if not what makes you special? if it works why not describe it as torture? Vince > Lux et Veritas et Libertas > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Vince > > Typical Left-Wing, Red-Herring Strawman ---- From the Baltimore Irish Drunk > > & UMD College Professor -- Vincent Brannigan -- Whose Naval Officer Parents [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > nothing but insults > no analysis The Prince of Boom and Bust is back, keen on the King's Crown, it appears. Analysis? You run from analysis at the first post that contains contrary evidence. You did on phalanxes and you did on people being sucked out of plane windows. Such behavior is degrading in anyone, but in a teacher trying to shape young minds, who claims professorial expertise in just about any subject he discusses, it's downright disgraceful. > no reply > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > >> Vince >>> Typical Left-Wing, Red-Herring Strawman ---- From the Baltimore Irish Drunk >>> & UMD College Professor -- Vincent Brannigan -- Whose Naval Officer Parents [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > young minds, who claims professorial expertise in just about any > subject he discusses, it's downright disgraceful. The record speaks for itself When and if you present "analysis" feel free to resume But until then you are Still writing anonymous insults on toilet walls Vincent Brannigan Happy to sign my post with my real name > >>> Typical Left-Wing, Red-Herring Strawman ---- From the Baltimore Irish Drunk > >>> & UMD College Professor -- Vincent Brannigan -- Whose Naval Officer Parents [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > The record speaks for itself Indeed it does. Note also that Vince will not go near that record, for he knows that he can't do much about it other than make misleading references to it. The "record" Vince alludes to is the Googgle News Archive, in which readers will find clear evidence from ancient primary sources squarely contradicting Vince's claims about the Macedonian phalanx, sources I quoted several times to firmly establish that Vince shall continue to ignore them, because that is ALL he can do. It goes similarly for the "passengers sucked out of plane windows" argument, which Vince rebutted with a test conducted by people as qualified as a pyrotechnician and an entertainer can be, despite VIDEO evidence of what happens to passengers sitting next to plane windows when they break at high altitude. Including the true account of a passenger whose head and right arm and shoulder were sucked out of a plane window, AT A MERE 22,000 feet. Which hints at what can happen at 39,000 feet, the maximum cruising altitude. That is what the record speaks, and Vince doesn't want to hear. It is just another > When and if you present "analysis" feel free to resume > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Happy to sign my post with my real name Vince is trying to change the subject. An argument doesn't depend on who proposes it and what kind of name the proposer goes by. And argument stands or fall on its own merits of lack or it. The record speaks clearly that a guy called Vince posted a lot of tripe about Greek warfare and plane safety, and a guy called Tiglath has him covered, pegged, cataloged, and running from the claims he made. And I can quote you -- let the record speak -- clearly and succinctly, and unafraid that tripe will suddenly turn to gospel. That's something your can only wish for. How was Hotlanta? >> Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I suppose to some Auschwitz is just an issue of political correctness Your response was simply disconnected and of senseless lack of analogy, just another of your usual resorting to hanging a big "Nazi" sign around the neck of all with which you disagree of find disagreeable..... Silly, infantile and expectable, about as intellectually justifiable as the John Birchers and their labeling of folks as "Commie Pinkos" Auschwitz had nothing to do with torture beyond the psychologically and emotionally induced misdeeds of the 'keepers", a lot who in almost every case deserved little more than to be hung (not hanged) from the wire and left for the ravens/crows. Folks may have been tortured for who and where they were, but not for information. Like you, I reject torture as of minimal effectiveness (and because of the inability to evalue the information disgorged under sever pressure - the "Tell'em what they want to hear!" syndrome). Even more so is the inevitable destructive nature of the exercise to the attitudes, perspectives and long term employment of those assigned to duties involving torturing. If they are all too willing, they are certainly unwanted for the task, and if they remain rational and even-keeled after a week or two, still rising to go the work with a smile, they are certainly unsuitable for future employment or utilization in other billets. I've not much problem with long term programs of incentives and disincentives to trade for less time-sensitive information. Obviously, no mail, the "Cartoon Channel" or Fox News on the only TV, and a steady diet of grits and scrapple might reasonably cause a prisoner to sell the exact address of his coven for an occasional ice cream sundae, but smart covens move frequently to avoid that sort of thing. Looking at torture as practiced by Eastern European security forces from 1946 until the fall of the Wall, it appears that the desired effect had far less to do with intelligence revelations than a sort of salutatory "numbing" of political prisoners to reduce their levels of potential resistance and to increase their level of cooperation with the organs of the state, more Pavlovian conditioning than information extraction. Of course, when the news got out or the prisoners were released to appear on the streets in bad physical shape, bent and tormented, couldn't the goal have been the traditional "For the benefit of the others"? Alan Dershowitz, a prominent attorney with substantial "Civil rights" credentials, seems to favor or at least approve the use of torture to extract high priority information in the case of terrorist activities. His is an interesting dichotomy, and I'm uncomfortable with the "no sauce for the goose, but plenty for the gander" equation. May I torture a meth dealer to extract the name of his supplier, certainly as dangerous to speedfreaks as a terrorist is to the general populace? If you're prepared to misuse Auschwitz, please pair it with Lubyanka, or better yet, use the names of institutions in which the use of torture transcended any politically or culturally justifiable purpose. After all, racking heretics was directed toward saving their souls.... TMO >>> Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. >>> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > After all, racking heretics was directed toward saving their souls.... I don't disagree at all with your arguments however Hines made the claim "If one simply defines TORTURE down, as many naïve, unrealistic and air-headed American "Liberals" do, then all SORTS of useful techniques become "unthinkable". They seek to make even anything that makes the detainee FEEL uncomfortable or DISORIENTED as being prohibited. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas and went on to say Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. > Efficacy & Political Correctness. > > DSH Which is what I responded to His suggestion that any argument that is not related to "effectivness" is simply "political correctness" is a clam that public or state morality is not a valid claim on our decision making. Auschwitz is the counter to that claim There are things which are simply so wrong they are beyond the pale it's not 'political correctness" Vince > >>> Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > > Vince Note White House drops choice for CIA lawyer White House Withdraws Nomination for CIA General Counsel MATTHEW DALY AP News Sep 25, 2007 17:56 EDT The White House withdrew its nominee to become the CIA's top lawyer on Tuesday after Democrats raised concerns that the agency's interrogation techniques may be illegal. John Rizzo, the president's choice to become the CIA's general counsel, asked President Bush to withdraw his name, saying it would be in his best interest and that of the agency where he has worked for 32 years. The Senate Intelligence Committee had been expected to consider Rizzo's nomination at a hearing Tuesday afternoon. White House spokeswoman Emily Lawrimore said Rizzo had submitted a withdrawal letter to Bush. "The president accepts his decision and greatly appreciates his extensive service at the CIA and his ongoing commitment to the agency's vital mission," she said. "For over three decades he's worked tirelessly to protect the American people." Rizzo, currently serving as the CIA's interim general counsel, told a Senate panel in June that he did not object to a 2002 memo authorizing interrogation techniques that stop just short of inflicting pain equal to that accompanying organ failure or even death. Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., who led the opposition to Rizzo, called him the wrong man for the job. "I hope that the administration's next nominee for the position demonstrates greater respect for the rule of law and a firmer commitment to making sure that our nation's counterterrorism programs have the strong legal foundation that they deserve," Wyden said. An intelligence official, who asked not to be named, said Rizzo saw that his nomination would not succeed in the Democratic-controlled Senate, and concluded that a prolonged confirmation fight would not help the CIA. A CIA spokesman said Tuesday that Director Michael Hayden respected Rizzo's decision to withdraw. "He also looks forward to Mr. Rizzo's continued service at the CIA," said spokesman George Little. Hayden considers Rizzo an outstanding lawyer who has "helped the men and women of the agency conduct their vital mission in accord with the law," Little added. Rizzo would have been the first general counsel to come up through the agency's ranks. He has been with the CIA for 32 years and served as acting general counsel from 2001 to 2002 and again since August 2004. Intelligence Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller, D-WVa., and Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., the panel's senior Republican, called Rizzo's withdrawal appropriate. "It was clear that he did not have the support of a majority of the committee and would not have been confirmed," Rockefeller said. At the hearing in June, Rizzo said he did not object to the 2002 memo that said for an interrogation technique to be considered torture, it must inflict pain "equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." He said he later deemed the document an "aggressive, expansive" reading of U.S. law. Human rights groups had urged the Senate to reject Rizzo's nomination because of his stated views on torture. In a letter to the intelligence panel, a coalition of advocacy groups cited Rizzo's June testimony, in which he had not objected to the so-called "torture memo" the Justice Department prepared in 2002. "When Mr. Rizzo failed to object to legal arguments that defended torture, he failed to protect his clients _ the president, his CIA colleagues and the American people," the groups wrote. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/09/white_house_drops_choice_for_c.php >>> Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. >>> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > TMO Personally, if I thought that (a) torture actually worked (i.e. provided useful reliable information most of the time) and (b) did not destroy (or at the very least, reduce the effectiveness of) the institutions that use it, I'd be all for it. I'd prefer psychological methods over physical pain, and I wouldn't hesitate to threaten family members if I thought that would work. But there simply isn't much evidence that torture actually works - the guy who gives you the goods is often already ready to do so, and the guy that you have to cripple for life to get some words out is probably insane by the time you get a few fragmentary sentences. I already saw the effect of (b), as a prisoner escort in the Marine Corps. I had to escort my man all the way to the brig, and watch while he was "processed". It was quite clear to me that his stay was not going to be pleasant - that was for each of the dozen or so Marines that I "chased". While http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/mcb/topStorybrig.asp is mostly true, the part of the process that I got to see (the initial arrival at the brig) involved substantial humiliation and fear. Nothing like ripping up a guy's wallet photos of his wife and kids in front of his face, and while he's being strip searched and being yelled at, told what a f**king disgrace he is to the Marine Corps. Quite often the offence would be marijuana use, and nothing but - in my mind it doesn't deserve quite that level of abuse. I don't believe it did good things to the Marines who administered that kind of discipline, let alone the prisoners. AHS > > Two ENTIRELY different issues, of course. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vince LOL. Yes, Captain Queeg of Naval Intelligence has problems with nuances like Nazi death camps and dragging some poor slob in off the street and setting dogs on him. > > >> Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > no, it does work. and every army knows it. you might get away with a lie > once. but in the end you will crack. But it only works...in some cases.... if the target actually knows something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling whatever he thinks you want to hear. This pogue has never even heard of Multiple Interrogations & Triangulation PLUS piecing the Jigsaw Puzzle together from All-Source Intelligence including Native Populations. Of course neither has Pogue Gans, the NYU schlockmeister professor who is poaching FAR out of his designated field of competence -- Chemistry. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> > >> Nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling > whatever he thinks you want to hear. I believe DSH has neatly proven the previous poster's point "If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling". It doens't always take torture. Peter >This pogue has never even heard of Multiple Interrogations & Triangulation >PLUS piecing the Jigsaw Puzzle together from All-Source Intelligence [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling >> whatever he thinks you want to hear. Peter Skelton >>>>> Nonsense. >>>>> Gans obviously hasn't done his homework and doesn't know the facts [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling > whatever he thinks you want to hear. It also requires the interrogators to believe the truth. If they are in denial or your side is doing something outside of the interrogators world view important leads can be ignored. Andrew Swallow > It also requires the interrogators to believe the truth. If they > are in denial or your side is doing something outside of the > interrogators world view important leads can be ignored. Take for example the sort of sh.t that a man like Hines would come up with if he were so selective in his truths. You'd have no end of people confessing to everything and... oh.. hang on...you do... ermmm... that errrmmm is .. if you are USAn. And arguing with anyone on a Spenser Hines thread is a good way of demonstrating consensus with an idiot. The alternative is not to educate the mass of ignorant USAns who are so stupid that they vote for extremely rich people that deny them basic rights to things like peace and health care. In alt.history.british Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote: >>>>>> Nonsense. >>>>>> Gans obviously hasn't done his homework and doesn't know the facts [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling >> whatever he thinks you want to hear. >It also requires the interrogators to believe the truth. If they >are in denial or your side is doing something outside of the >interrogators world view important leads can be ignored. I agree with Andrew. Further, I think that this discussion, to date, has ignored the experience of the Middle Ages. Most were not bothered by modern sensibilities or worried about later prosecution. Their almost universal conclusion that torture, no matter how done, *including* sensory deprivation, was useless as an interogatory tool. Ignoring this very important data point is an example of what Andrew was talking about immediately above. Those defending torture as useful do not want to hear any evidence to the contrary. Signature--- Paul J. Gans Hilarious! Once again Pogue Gans has been hoist with his own petar and doesn't even realize it. Par For The Course. The fact-free gibberish Gans posts below is indicative of ONE way he makes Most-Entertaining Egregious Errors -- as he continues to post gibberish FAR beyond the pale of his assigned field of competence -- Chemistry. First, Gans makes some fact-free, blanket "almost universal" Ex Cathedra Statement about the Mediaeval Period and Mediaeval People. Second, he runs with that red herring in his hand to ANOTHER Ex Cathedra Statement applying the PREVIOUS UNPROVEN statement to Modern Times, Modern People and to his Intellectual Opponents -- who are kicking his arse and beating him senseless [rhetorically]. Since Pogue Gans has absolutely ZIP-POINT ZERO Military, Naval, Diplomatic or Intelligence Experience, he fails to understand that tens of thousands of interrogations and conversations are conducted and some yield up PAY DIRT -- perhaps only a SMALL NUGGET -- others are unfruitful. Then the rigorous, painstaking work of VERIFICATION, TRIANGULATION, ANALYSIS and SYNTHESIS begins and continues until the Jigsaw Puzzle begins to shape up and yield useful insights. Although the Jigsaw Puzzle may never be finally completed -- often there is simply not time for that -- with skillful intelligent, extremely hard-working people working on it -- people who have been given the requisite tools to do the job -- tools of the sort authorized in the Patriot Act and other Legislation -- VERY USEFUL data can be uncovered. Occasionally, one digs up a BIG NUGGET -- as was the case with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the Mastermind behind the 9/11 Attacks on the United States. OF COURSE there are False Confessions and Disinformation Techniques practiced by our enemies in the Global War On Terror. Skillful, intelligent, well-trained interrogators know how to deal with these phenomena and to counter them -- that's a vital part of their job -- and it is VERY demanding work. Those are just a FEW of the important FACTS about these matters that Pogue Gans chooses to ignore and/or dismiss. He can get away with making such Grossly Simplistic, Inaccurate and Uniformed Statements in the NYU college classroom -- because he has a captive, callow, none-too-bright, audience who depend on him for grades and recommendations -- but NOT here on USENET. Aye, that's his Eternal Conundrum.... And Our Delightful Entertainment. Hell, Gans is so dumb he can't even SPELL _INTERROGATORY_... Vide infra pro risibus. ...Much less understand how INTERROGATIONS and other approved intelligence sources and methods yield most useful results. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum > I agree with Andrew. Further, I think that this discussion, > to date, has ignored the experience of the Middle Ages. Most [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > defending torture as useful do not want to hear any evidence > to the contrary. > I agree with Andrew. Further, I think that this discussion, > to date, has ignored the experience of the Middle Ages. Rubbish - how would the Christians have found all those thousands of evil witches without it. And it was obvious even back then that anyone who decried the use of torture must be a proponent of witchcraft themselves. Estimates vary wildly but as an absolute minimum over 300,000 of these wicked heretics and Satan worshippers were brought to justice via the use of torture. And you say it doesn't work?! >> I agree with Andrew. Further, I think that this discussion, >> to date, has ignored the experience of the Middle Ages. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > use of torture. > And you say it doesn't work?! Not to mention Stalin's even more extensive experience. How else would he have found out about the millions of Trotskyites, PromParty activists, and wreckers? Quite effective. Dennis >> > >> Nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling >whatever he thinks you want to hear. Exactly. The Highlander Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan, togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan! >> > >> Nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > something useful. If the poor guy is clueless, he ends up babbling > whatever he thinks you want to hear. The NKVD used to have a motto: 'Everybody talks on the third day.' SOE agents were told: 'Try and hold out for 48 hours and then tell them everything'. Then SOE promptly, but possibly unknowingly, fed agents into certain capture and death just after they had been packed full of false information. The US can capture a holy warrior, interrogate him for a month, break him open like an oyster, and all they get is what Osama wants them to have. Welcome to the wilderness of mirrors. Indications so far are that the bad guys are far better at this than the US military... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. [snip] > The NKVD used to have a motto: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Then SOE promptly, but possibly unknowingly, fed agents into certain > capture and death just after they had been packed full of false information. SOE may not have known that its people were being captured but the codebreakers will have almost certainly reported it to the British Government. A lot of the agents sent to France were women, since they could move around without suspicion. A give away that SOE had been tipped off would be that the compromised country only getting male agents. Andrew Swallow > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > had been tipped off would be that the compromised country only getting > male agents. The issue of the SOE people being sent to their deaths is a controversial one. It seems that SOE did not have control of their own radio links. The links were controlled by SIS, as, of course, were the codebreakers. Also the 'conducting officer' who gave the agent their codes and did the briefing just before take-off were also SIS officers and not SOE. A number of agents sent into Holland, at a time when the Dutch SOE circuits were very much penetrated, seem to have been briefed to investigate the conditions in the Calais area with a view to invasion. It has been suggested that GCCS (I think by then it was known as GCHQ) had broken the German army intelligence codes and knew this but refrained from telling SOE and used the mess as a chance to spread more disinformation about the coming invasion of Europe. Agent selection was a matter for SOE. SIS, who was doing the possible misdirection, didn't know who'd be sent until just before deployment. The known facts are scarce. The British had certainly broken the codes, but whether or not the Germans used land line or radio to transmit them is currently unknown, although the German operation was run by a specialist radio deception unit. Authority for such an operation would have to be given at the very highest level, but again, nothing definite has surfaced. SIS and GCHQ files are not declassified in the normal manner and so are not available for scrutiny. Very few people would have known what was going on. It isn't hard to speculate on who. The Prime Minister certainly, possibly another politician, C himself and a small operational team within SIS who'd prepare the briefing papers for the agent plus whoever was doing the translations of German intelligence signals at Bletchley Park, again probably a closed cell of a couple of people who only did the Dutch stuff and someone senior to be in charge of the whole thing. The dispatching officer probably never knew. We're probably talking about a dozen people in total. So there'd only ever have been a dozen or so people in on the secret. The senior ones are long dead, the junior ones are almost impossible to identify now, even if they're alive. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > The senior ones are long dead, the junior ones are almost impossible to > identify now, even if they're alive. 50 men to die in the capturing of a hill would be considered normal. 50 men dyeing to immobilise a German regiment would be considered good planning. Losing about 50 men to immobilise every regiment in Holland would be very cheap but not very sporting. The officers giving the order will have lose sleep over it. Losing more than a couple of women in such an operation would not be considered British. We may not have records of the people in charge but a list of the people captured by the Germans may still exit. Andrew Swallow >>> [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > very cheap but not very sporting. The officers giving the order will > have lose sleep over it. I agree, even though a close relative was shot after interrogation after being parachuted into Holland at about this time. > Losing more than a couple of women in such an operation would not > be considered British. We may not have records of the people in > charge but a list of the people captured by the Germans may still > exit. The people who knew about the betrayal didn't know who'd be sent. There would have been no change in the pattern of agents used. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > > the dirty little secret about torture is that it works. > > Actually, it doesn't - but that doesn't seem to stop the Americans > persisting with it. That's because in a democracy that only appoints millionaires and is run by a chimp with rabies who if he was in a similar position in Britain, France or Germany, would have to resign for having such a stupid racist mother, numbers count. (Unless they are the ones that BetrayUS ignores, that is. http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus_ad.html) >> Nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >>> the dirty little secret about torture is that it works. The reality is that none of you know what you're talking about. Hanns-Joachim Gottlob Scharff (December 16, 1907 September 10, 1992) was a German Luftwaffe interrogator during the Second World War. He has been called the "Master Interrogator" of the Luftwaffe and possibly all of Nazi Germany; he has also been praised for his contribution in shaping U.S. interrogation techniques after the war. Merely an Obergefreiter (the equivalent of a senior lance corporal), he was charged with interrogating every German-captured American fighter pilot during the war after his becoming an interrogation officer in 1943. He is highly praised for the success of his techniques, especially considering he never used physical means to obtain the required information. No evidence exists he even raised his voice in the presence of a prisoner of war (POW). Scharffs interrogation techniques were so effective that he was often called upon to assist other German interrogators in their questioning of bomber pilots and aircrews, including those crews and fighter pilots from countries other than the United States. Additionally, Scharff was charged with questioning V.I.P.s (Very Important Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely senior officers and world-famous fighter aces. After the end of WWII, Scharff was invited by the United States Air Force to give lectures on his interrogation techniques and first-hand experiences. The U.S. military later incorporated Scharffs methods into its curriculum at its interrogation schools. After the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was revealed in the early 2000s, Scharffs name was again brought to the forefront as investigators questioned why his methods, which continue to be taught in military intelligence and interrogation schools, had been ignored in favor of more physically abusive tactics by U.S. military personnel and U.S. defense contractors alike to obtain desired information from Iraqi detainees. After the war, Scharff immigrated to the United States from South Africa. From the 1950s until his death in 1992, Scharff redirected his efforts to artistry, namely mosaics. He eventually became a world-renowned mosaic artisan, with his handiwork on display in such locations as the California State Capitol building; Los Angeles City Hall; several schools, colleges, and universities, including the giant Outdoor Mosaic Mural fascade of the Dixie State College Fine Arts Center; Epcot Center; and in the 15-foot arched mosaic walls featuring the story of Cinderella inside Cinderella Castle at Walt Disney World, Florida. And those are the facts. The Highlander Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan, togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan! > The reality is that none of you know what you're talking about. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > And those are the facts. More facts include a discussion very near here about torture. Have you noticed it yet? Can you see what it is? >> The reality is that none of you know what you're talking about. >> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >More facts include a discussion very near here about torture. Have you >noticed it yet? Can you see what it is? I'm probably in a different group from you - enlighten me. > On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:09:24 -0700, Weatherlawyer > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > I'm probably in a different group from you - enlighten me. Don't listen to this creature, he is a fraud. > > On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:09:24 -0700, Weatherlawyer > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Don't listen to this creature, he is a fraud. And a plagiarist and yellow belly. The only mark The Highlander will leave in his long and miserable life is in his shorts. > > > On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:09:24 -0700, Weatherlawyer > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > The only mark The Highlander will leave in his long and miserable life > is in his shorts. sh.t stains as he reads my posts. Lol >>> Nonsense. >>> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > >And those are the facts. Stolen without attribution from Wikipedia. Oh dear! Eugene L Griessel As you get older, you get less willing to buy the latest version of reality. - Leonard Cohen >>>> Nonsense. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > Stolen without attribution from Wikipedia. Oh dear! Doncha know, Eugene? The Highlander invented and wrote all the entries of Wikipedia! - nilita The Highcolander SHAMELESSLY rips off material from Wiki and passes it as his own. It must be the habit from when he was a "professional newspaper reporter" as he makes out he was. He slams people for not knowing what they are talking about and fills his own mouth with stolen thoughts before he emits his verbal vomit on shm, as per usual. ZAP! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff ---------------------- DO NOT CROSS ---------------------- > The reality is that none of you know what you're talking about. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely > senior officers and world-famous fighter aces. <snip more plagiarized stuff> >> Nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > the dirty little secret about torture is that it works. I've never been sure. Could you give some references? Here's some standard references on this uplifting subject (interrogation, anyway.) It doesn't make it sound like actual torture is that effective. The Israelis use it, so I'd guess it is. CIA, KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation, July 1963 CIA, Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual - 1983 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/ Psychological "Torture Bible" Manipulation of Human Behavior http://www.boingboing.net/2007/09/05/psychological-tortur.html Dennis > Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > interesting psychological situation since it was well known then, > > as now, that torture does not often provide relable [sic] information. Although, some may say torture does not provide reliable information. The type of information is needed consist of a small portion, location and name mainly. It is important to remember that in the TV series Alias (where the CIA had to approve the TV scripts, and one episode could not be shown due to security concerns), that waterboarding, physical attack, and others gave the important information that was needed. In addition, in other areas, MI5/MI6 has had great results with sleep deprivation to get someone whether in the hong kong colony or part of the IRA (the red mailboxes). "Remember, remember, the fifth of November, the Gun Powder, treason and plot..." > It is important to remember that in the TV series > Alias (where the CIA had to approve the TV scripts, and one episode > could not be shown due to security concerns), That's one hell of a statement. How does an intelligence agency get to censor a US TV show? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> It is important to remember that in the TV series >> Alias (where the CIA had to approve the TV scripts, and one episode [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How does an intelligence agency get to censor a US TV show? Especially one not permitted to operate within the USA... SignatureJohn Briggs > >> It is important to remember that in the TV series > >> Alias (where the CIA had to approve the TV scripts, and one episode [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Especially one not permitted to operate within the USA... It is broadcast to foreigners in foreign places, all of whom can be wire tapped for being on the receiving end of a US communication. The Agency may have decided that there were just too many foreigners. Because of Notianal Security we will never know. Hal If one simply defines TORTURE down, as many naïve, unrealistic and air-headed American "Liberals" do, then all SORTS of useful techniques become "unthinkable". They seek to make even anything that makes the detainee uncomfortable as being prohibited. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - Show quoted text - They could tie someone to a chair and have you regale them with your cut and paste editorials and regurgitated Fox "news". That would have nearly anyone thrashing about and confessing to everything, including shooting Lincoln. >> "Paul J Gans" wrote in >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > nearly anyone thrashing about and confessing to everything, including > shooting Lincoln. There was the scene in, ISTR, "Sherlock Holmes' Smarter Brother," where the villain ties up the girl, puts on a metal hand with chalk ends, and scrapes it on a blackboard. She confessed quickly! Dennis >>> "Paul J Gans" wrote in >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > where the villain ties up the girl, puts on a metal hand with chalk ends, > and scrapes it on a blackboard. She confessed quickly! Fat Freddy, he of 'The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers' fame, finally cracked when the police threatened to put a spider on him. Bastards! >>>> "Paul J Gans" wrote in >>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > him. > Bastards! Veronal/Nembutal/Amytal (barbiturates) can dull a person's senses into giving information because is easier to tell the truth than to prevaricate when induced into a dream-like state. One would suppose that the dose must be carefully calculated, however. > >>>> "Paul J Gans" wrote in > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > One would suppose that the dose must be > carefully calculated, however. and that's not hard to do, with blood levels and IV administration. redc1c4, and the old favorite: Sodium Pentothal..... %-) Signature"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching." Army Officer's Guide >> > "Dennis" <tsalagiNOSPAM@asus.net> wrote >> > in [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > and the old favorite: Sodium Pentothal..... > %-) Of course there are those degenerate few so steeped in dissipation, that the odd bottle of scotch (or gin) will suffice. I remember Na Pentothal when being anaesthetized. It knocks one out pretty quick but gives a vomitous hangover. The same with chloroform (when I was five) which was applied via a doused rag over a kitchen soup strainer. I'm sure I lost a few brain cells thru it all. >>>>> "Paul J Gans" wrote in >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > One would suppose that the dose must be carefully calculated, however. Provided that a person is not an alcoholic you could achieve the same effect with booze. Stun them out with IV ethanol and the chances are pretty good that in that mid-zone between being rational but happy, and being totally f**ked up, they will willingly talk. It's a well-known phenonomenon - people under the influence of alcohol like to talk - they'll tell you stuff you never wanted to know. AHS On Sep 27, 9:17 am, "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> wrote: > >>>>> "Paul J Gans" wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > AHS There are several medical IVs that create the same effect. Ask anyone who has shared a room with one who has undergone an operation using the stuff. My latest reference is the 1970s but I would think TLC prior (Sir, you've been injured quite badly we are going to see if the doctor can correct your problems) and equally after (Sir, you were quite brave in there, you must have been in a lot of pain.) > On Sep 27, 9:17 am, "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > doctor can correct your problems) and equally after (Sir, you were > quite brave in there, you must have been in a lot of pain.) It's also a well known phenomenon that if you ply individuals with booze at the end of the night, they'll come home with ya ...: at least that's what many men like to believe ..%) - nilita > > On Sep 27, 9:17 am, "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - nilita There are cases of just a little toe-tapping having the same result. In graffiti men's rooms all over Oregon the mantra "Larry Craig was here" >> > On Sep 27, 9:17 am, "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> >> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > In graffiti men's rooms all over Oregon the mantra "Larry Craig was > here" I understand that particular airport stall in Minnesota is now quite the tourist attraction. I kid you not .... - nilita > >> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > - nilita Point of humor: The Republican Convention will be held in Minneapolis this summer and most of the delegates will be coming by air. The airport and local police better hire a marketing organization to handle the "overflow". >> There are cases of just a little toe-tapping having the same result. >> In graffiti men's rooms all over Oregon the mantra "Larry Craig was >> here" > > I understand that particular airport stall in Minnesota is now quite > the tourist attraction. I kid you not .... I read that on the Net too. I wonder if toe-tapping music will make a comeback (so to speak...) Dennis > >> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > - nilita New stalls for Craig's airport restroom Fallout From Craig's Airport Restroom Arrest: New Dividers Aimed at Stopping Sexual Liaisons JOSHUA FREED AP News Sep 28, 2007 12:36 EDT The infamous airport men's room where Sen. Larry Craig was arrested is getting new stall dividers that drop nearly to the floor to make it a less inviting spot for sexual liaisons. Web sites had touted that restroom as a popular site for sex with strangers, and police reports over the summer described several cases of men ducking their heads under the dividers into adjoining stalls, allegedly in search of sex. On June 11, an undercover police officer was the men's room when Craig allegedly tapped his feet and swiped his hand under the divider in a way authorities said was a signal for someone wanted sex. Craig pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct, but when the incident became public, he denied ever seeking sex there and said the officer misunderstood his actions. Craig is now seeking to withdraw his guilty plea to the misdemeanor. The Minneapolis airport has more than 80 restrooms, but only two are being targeted for the new dividers, including the one now known for Craig's arrest. "These two have been the most problematic in terms of complaints from people and indications on Web sites that sexual activities are occurring in them," said airport spokesman Patrick Hogan. He said the dividers would be installed within the next two months. Both restrooms, in the busy Northstar Crossing shopping area, had a reputation on some Web sites as good places for bathroom liaisons. Hogan said airport officials had been checking the Web sites and found the activity had dropped off since Craig's arrest. One person arrested over the summer told police he had four sexual encounters in three hours, and it was only on his fifth approach that someone objected, Hogan said. The new stall dividers will fall to just 2 to 3 inches above the floor, instead of leaving as much as a foot of open space as they do now. The airport expects to spend $25,000; installing them in every restroom there would cost about $1 million, Hogan said. "It is unfortunate to look at having to spend $1 million on something that wouldn't be necessary if people simply behaved themselves," he said. Source: AP News > New stalls for Craig's airport restroom > > Fallout From Craig's Airport Restroom Arrest: New Dividers Aimed at > Stopping Sexual Liaisons sniff ... I love heartrending stories of good arising from tragedy ... sniff ... - nilita >>>>> On Sep 27, 9:17 am, "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > > Source: AP News I don't like this at all! On Sep 28, 2:51 pm, Republican Restroom Romeo <rlo...@foxnews.com> wrote: > >> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > > I don't like this at all! still room for your hand, Ex-lax > On Sep 28, 2:51 pm, Republican Restroom Romeo <rlo...@foxnews.com> > wrote: >>> Source: AP News >> I don't like this at all! > > still room for your hand, Ex-lax What about my wide stance? On Sep 28, 4:36 pm, Republican Restroom Romeo <rlo...@foxnews.com> wrote: > > On Sep 28, 2:51 pm, Republican Restroom Romeo <rlo...@foxnews.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What about my wide stance? Less than you think it is, 2-3 inches should give you a toe-hold the rest is up to romance and the possibility of a repeat performance. > On Sep 28, 4:36 pm, Republican Restroom Romeo <rlo...@foxnews.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Less than you think it is, 2-3 inches should give you a toe-hold the > rest is up to romance and the possibility of a repeat performance. What do they know about love. > It's also a well known phenomenon that if you ply individuals with booze > at the end of the night, they'll come home with ya ...: at least that's > what many men like to believe ..%) I can vouch for the veracity of that alleged process. Many's the time some grotesque female gargoyle has plyed me with drink and lured me home to her cave. > > It's also a well known phenomenon that if you ply individuals with booze > > at the end of the night, they'll come home with ya ...: at least that's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Many's the time some grotesque female gargoyle has plyed me with drink and > lured me home to her cave. Turning into a beautiful princess in the process >>> It's also a well known phenomenon that if you ply individuals with booze >>> at the end of the night, they'll come home with ya ...: at least that's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Turning into a beautiful princess in the process That's what 'beer goggles' are for. Signature"For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall >>>> It's also a well known phenomenon that if you ply individuals with >>>> booze [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That's what 'beer goggles' are for. Cheeky gits. I've NEVER gone to bed with an ugly woman in my life. OK - I've woken up with a few but thats different. > >>> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I've NEVER gone to bed with an ugly woman in my life. > OK - I've woken up with a few but thats different. Ugly women (and to be fair...men)....why God invented light switches. On Sep 28, 10:56 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > > "Cory Bhreckan" <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Ugly women (and to be fair...men)....why God invented light > switches. and paper bags On Sep 28, 10:59 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote: > On Sep 28, 10:56 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > and paper bags Shoot, just roll 'em over...... On Sep 28, 11:07 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > On Sep 28, 10:59 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - mayhap, you may wish to upgrade--to quote the late Coco Chanel: "There is no such thing as an ugly woman--only a lazy one." > On Sep 28, 11:07 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > mayhap, you may wish to upgrade--to quote the late Coco Chanel: "There > is no such thing as an ugly woman--only a lazy one." About the time I figured out that I wasn't necessarilly God's gift to women...and stopped looking for God's gift to men...I found, uh, companionship much easier to come by. On Sep 28, 11:26 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > > On Sep 28, 11:07 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > - Show quoted text - sadly, not many people gain that insight in a timely fashion JML been there done that >On Sep 28, 11:07 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: >> On Sep 28, 10:59 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >mayhap, you may wish to upgrade--to quote the late Coco Chanel: "There >is no such thing as an ugly woman--only a lazy one." And then there's 'coyote ugly'; when you find yourself in the morning with your arm around a woman so ugly that you gnaw off your own arm rather than risk waking her up. ---- Diogenes (cdhoran@hotmail.com) The wars are long, the peace is frail The madmen come again . . . . > >>> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > - Show quoted text - "At night, there is no such thing as an ugly woman"--Ovid. >> >>> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > "At night, there is no such thing as an ugly woman"--Ovid. Winston Churchill: "'You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk. 'Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober." - nilita > >> "Cory Bhreckan" <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - it appears that Mr. Churchill's drinking was a matter of comment amongst the folks he customarily dealt with--Lady Astor, that transplanted Southern belle, was throwing a costume party; when Mr. Churchill asked her to suiggest a costume for him, Lady Astor replied "why don't you come sober, Mr. Churchill?" > it appears that Mr. Churchill's drinking was a matter of comment > amongst the folks he customarily dealt with--Lady Astor, that > transplanted Southern belle, was throwing a costume party; when Mr. > Churchill asked her to suiggest a costume for him, Lady Astor replied > "why don't you come sober, Mr. Churchill?" Churchill was a very heavy drinker, up to a bottle of brandy, plus wine with dinner, a day. He seems to have functioned normally as an orator and also seems to have managed his cabinet with that level of intake, but his judgement on military matters not terribly sound. As witnessed by Alanbrooke's comments in his autobiography about 'Having to yet again waste hours talking Winston out of one of his bloody silly ideas'. -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Sep 28, 11:57 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > > it appears that Mr. Churchill's drinking was a matter of comment > > amongst the folks he customarily dealt with--Lady Astor, that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Churchill had a thing about raids and surprise attacks. They helped when all the Army could do was drill and watch for the invasion but after North Africa and the entry of the United States, the activity should have had greater strategic import. Going back into the "soft underbelly of Europe" (essentially Italy) was one of his fantasies that came close to testing the alliance. It seemed to echo the Dardanelles failure in WWI and suggest that Churchill lacked the strategic view necessary for winning the war. > Churchill had a thing about raids and surprise attacks. They helped > when all the Army could do was drill and watch for the invasion but > after North Africa There is no gap. Italy invades British Somaliland while the Battle of Britain is still going on and invades Egypt September 13 (I think) 1940. The 'pin prick' raids served very little military purpose except to divert attention from strategically important but small attacks such as the Bruneval Raid. Most of the effort went on burning German cities because it was thought to be effective. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Sep 28, 2:52 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote: > On Sep 28, 11:57 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Dardanelles failure in WWI and suggest that Churchill lacked the > strategic view necessary for winning the war. But the Brits were right.....a cross-channel invasion in 1943 (like the US wanted) was a recipe for disaster. At least the Med campaign showed Stalin the West was doing something on the ground. > > It's also a well known phenomenon that if you ply individuals with booze > > at the end of the night, they'll come home with ya ...: at least that's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Many's the time some grotesque female gargoyle has plyed me with drink and > lured me home to her cave. those were sheep. redc1c4, someone should turn you in to the RSPCA %-) Signature"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching." Army Officer's Guide |
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