Tighter Border Delays Re-entry By U.S. Citizens
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D. Spencer Hines - 21 Oct 2007 20:16 GMT We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES...
ASAP.
"Starting Jan. 31, American citizens returning home by land will have to present either a passport, or a citizenship document like a birth certificate together with a government-issued identity card with a photograph. The requirement is the next phase of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, which Congress adopted in a 2004 bill that enacted recommendations of the commission that examined the Sept. 11 attacks. It is intended to improve antiterror intelligence by gathering a record of everyone entering the United States."
Good...
"In the meantime, Mr. Basham said, “A safer border is well worth the wait.”"
Indeed...
“We are Americans who live at the border, with our economy and livelihood that depend on moving efficiently back and forth,” said Maria Luisa O’Connell, president of the Border Trade Alliance, which represents businesses all along the border with Mexico. “Now suddenly we have measures that make it less efficient but don’t make us any safer.”
Nonsense...
"“These two communities are very interlinked, not only by trade and commerce, but by family, religion, education,” Mr. Garcia said, standing at the base of the Paso del Norte border bridge as pedestrians streamed by, heading for downtown El Paso. “When a person leaves El Paso to go to Juárez, it’s like going across the street. They don’t consider it leaving the country,” he said."
An Unacceptable Attitude in the Post 9/11 World...
DSH
God Bless America
Lux et Veritas et Libertas ---------------------------------------
October 21, 2007
Tighter Border Delays Re-entry by U.S. Citizens
By JULIA PRESTON The New York Times
EL PASO — United States border agents have stepped up scrutiny of Americans returning home from Mexico, slowing commerce and creating delays at border crossings not seen since the months after the Sept. 11 attacks.
The increased enforcement is in part a dress rehearsal for new rules, scheduled to take effect in January, that will require Americans to show a passport or other proof of citizenship to enter the United States. The requirements were approved by Congress as part of antiterrorism legislation in 2004.
Border officials said agents along the southern border were asking more returning United States citizens to show a photo identity document. At the same time, agents are increasing the frequency of what they call queries, where they check a traveler’s information against law enforcement, immigration and antiterror databases.
The new policy is a big shift after decades when Americans arrived at land border crossings, declared they were citizens and were waved on through. Since the authorities began ramping up enforcement in August, wait times at border stations in Texas have often stretched to two hours or more, discouraging visitors and shoppers and upsetting local business.
The delays could remain a fact of life across the southern border for the next few years, border officials said, at least until new security technology and expanded entry stations are installed and until Americans get used to being checked and questioned like foreigners. Last year 234 million travelers entered the United States through land border crossings from Mexico.
W. Ralph Basham, the commissioner of Customs and Border Protection, the agency that manages the borders, said longer waits had resulted from added security measures at border stations that in many cases were aging, outmoded and facing surging traffic. Saying the new document checks were a “security imperative,” Mr. Basham called on border cities, which own many of the crossing bridges, to invest in expanding the entry points.
In the meantime, Mr. Basham said, “A safer border is well worth the wait.”
BINGO! -- DSH
Wait times of up to three hours have also been reported over the past few months at crossings from eastern Canada. Senator Bernard Sanders, independent of Vermont, who held a series of town meetings with border officials about the lines, said low staffing at border stations was the primary cause there.
The longer lines along the Mexico border have been especially unsettling here in El Paso, a humming border city long comfortable in its marriage to Ciudad Juárez, the bigger and rowdier Mexican metropolis on the other bank of the Rio Grande. Lines of cars and pedestrians at sunrise on the four border bridges here are a routine for tens of thousands of people, including many United States citizens, coming from Mexico on their way to school, work and shopping.
“International bridge wait times continue to escalate, causing frustration and concern in my district and across the nation,” wrote El Paso’s congressman, Representative Silvestre Reyes, a Democrat, in a letter this month to the House Committee on Homeland Security in which he called for a hearing on the matter.
One crosser who said she had struggled with the lines was Wilda Laboy, a 37-year-old American citizen who works in Juárez but is studying for her high school equivalency in El Paso.
“I arrive late, and they don’t let me in,” said Ms. Laboy as she waited to be checked through the Paso del Norte bridge crossing here. “I miss classes.”
Many families that straddle the border are feeling the strain. Border trade groups say the long lines caught them by surprise and are disrupting economic ties vital to both sides of the border.
“We are Americans who live at the border, with our economy and livelihood that depend on moving efficiently back and forth,” said Maria Luisa O’Connell, president of the Border Trade Alliance, which represents businesses all along the border with Mexico. “Now suddenly we have measures that make it less efficient but don’t make us any safer.”
Richard Cortez, the mayor of McAllen, another Texas border town that saw long lines this summer, said the waits had slowed some of the 45,000 trailer trucks that passed the border there each month.
“There’s a misconception that border communities care only about ourselves and our own local businesses,” Mr. Cortez said by telephone. “Our border crossings affect trade across the United States.”
Of $332 billion in trade last year between the United States and Mexico, this country’s third-largest trading partner, more than 80 percent of it moved across the border by truck.
Starting Jan. 31, American citizens returning home by land will have to present either a passport, or a citizenship document like a birth certificate together with a government-issued identity card with a photograph. The requirement is the next phase of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, which Congress adopted in a 2004 bill that enacted recommendations of the commission that examined the Sept. 11 attacks. It is intended to improve antiterror intelligence by gathering a record of everyone entering the United States.
So far the new inspections are not systematic enough to yield measurable results.
The passport requirement has been in effect since January for most citizens returning to the United States by air, and it had a rocky debut because many Americans without passports rushed to apply for one. Passport processing backlogs overwhelmed the State Department, which was forced to relax the requirement during the months of June, July, August and September. That experience has created anxiety among many people who cross at land stations as they anticipate the next phase.
Also in August, border officials said, the Department of Homeland Security issued a directive designed to unify inspection procedures for all the border agencies under its umbrella. It set an eventual goal, with no fixed deadline, for agents to conduct a database query for every person crossing the border.
As a result, queries by agents of both American and foreign border crossers increased. At many older border stations, including El Paso, agents have to enter some queries manually, taking minutes that quickly mount up to hours when thousands of cars and people are waiting in line.
Luis Garcia, the El Paso field director for Customs and Border Protection, said the new policy demanded a change of culture.
“These two communities are very interlinked, not only by trade and commerce, but by family, religion, education,” Mr. Garcia said, standing at the base of the Paso del Norte border bridge as pedestrians streamed by, heading for downtown El Paso. “When a person leaves El Paso to go to Juárez, it’s like going across the street. They don’t consider it leaving the country,” he said.
On an average day, some 21,000 pedestrians cross from Juárez on the Paso del Norte bridge, one of El Paso’s four entryways. Mr. Garcia installed a canopy over the walkway, and water fountains and overhead mist-makers at the checkpoint to cool weary walkers on sweltering days.
As the lines into El Paso swelled in mid-August, Mr. Garcia said, he issued a memorandum directing his agents to gauge vehicle lines in deciding how many travelers to query. If lines were over an hour, agents should run a query only for the driver, unless something about the vehicle aroused their suspicions.
But Mr. Garcia said he did not have great flexibility to speed the lines. “One thing I can tell you up front, as director in El Paso, I will not compromise security for facilitation,” he said.
Border groups say they support tougher security measures but want the border authorities to back them up with increased staff levels and technology to avoid slowing commerce.
Funds for the Border Patrol, which scouts the border between entry points for illegal immigrants, increased by 70 percent since 2005 to $3 billion. By contrast, financing for border station agents, who processed nearly 300 million travelers entering the country legally by land last year, rose by 30 percent since 2005, to $2.1 billion.
Ray O'Hara - 21 Oct 2007 20:32 GMT > We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > "In the meantime, Mr. Basham said, "A safer border is well worth the wait.""
> Indeed... > > "We are Americans who live at the border, with our economy and livelihood > that depend on moving efficiently back and forth," said Maria Luisa O'Connell,
> president of the Border Trade Alliance, which represents businesses all > along the border with Mexico. "Now suddenly we have measures that make it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ""These two communities are very interlinked, not only by trade and > commerce, but by family, religion, education," Mr. Garcia said, standing at
> the base of the Paso del Norte border bridge as pedestrians streamed by, > heading for downtown El Paso. "When a person leaves El Paso to go to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > EL PASO - United States border agents have stepped up scrutiny of Americans
> returning home from Mexico, slowing commerce and creating delays at border > crossings not seen since the months after the Sept. 11 attacks. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > security measures at border stations that in many cases were aging, outmoded > and facing surging traffic. Saying the new document checks were a "security
> imperative," Mr. Basham called on border cities, which own many of the > crossing bridges, to invest in expanding the entry points. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > "We are Americans who live at the border, with our economy and livelihood > that depend on moving efficiently back and forth," said Maria Luisa O'Connell,
> president of the Border Trade Alliance, which represents businesses all > along the border with Mexico. "Now suddenly we have measures that make it [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > "These two communities are very interlinked, not only by trade and commerce,
> but by family, religion, education," Mr. Garcia said, standing at the base > of the Paso del Norte border bridge as pedestrians streamed by, heading for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > On an average day, some 21,000 pedestrians cross from Juárez on the Paso del > Norte bridge, one of El Paso's four entryways. Mr. Garcia installed a canopy
> over the walkway, and water fountains and overhead mist-makers at the > checkpoint to cool weary walkers on sweltering days. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > million travelers entering the country legally by land last year, rose by 30 > percent since 2005, to $2.1 billion. . be afraid, paranoia is patriotic.
John Briggs - 21 Oct 2007 20:59 GMT > We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... The war against Tourism?
 Signature John Briggs
James Hogg - 21 Oct 2007 22:32 GMT >> We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... > >The war against Tourism? The way George Bush speaks, there's no difference between tourism and terrorism anyway.
James
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 22 Oct 2007 14:35 GMT >>> We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... >> >>The war against Tourism? > > The way George Bush speaks, there's no difference between tourism and > terrorism anyway. Not true - the war criminal has been *far* more succesfull in deterring tourism.
Paul J Gans - 22 Oct 2007 17:09 GMT In alt.history.british Adam Whyte-Settlar <none@none> wrote:
>>>> We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... >>> >>>The war against Tourism? >> >> The way George Bush speaks, there's no difference between tourism and >> terrorism anyway.
>Not true - the war criminal has been *far* more succesfull in deterring >tourism. Curious isn't it that with all the vaunted border security the US can't keep huge amounts of pot and cocaine out of the country.
Don't folks realize that if you can smuggle in tons of anything, you can also smuggle in people?
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
The Highlander - 22 Oct 2007 23:42 GMT >In alt.history.british Adam Whyte-Settlar <none@none> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Don't folks realize that if you can smuggle in tons of anything, >you can also smuggle in people? As H.L. Mencken pointed out, nobody ever lost a buck underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
Lou Dobbs has just announced on television that the Chinese leadership is ten times smarter than the leadership of the US.
The American dream is collapsing.
Alert Chicken Little immediately!
Any country that could promote Hines to the rank of Commander without screaming "April Fool!" is doomed.
Ian Smith - 28 Oct 2007 00:52 GMT > >In alt.history.british Adam Whyte-Settlar <none@none> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Any country that could promote Hines to the rank of Commander without > screaming "April Fool!" is doomed. Lol!
Peter Skelton - 22 Oct 2007 21:30 GMT >>>> We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Not true - the war criminal has been *far* more succesfull in deterring >tourism. For the past few years, I have found the US border guards courteous and accomodating.
I'd say that GWB's effect on the dollar has enhanced tourism, at least from hard currency countries.
Peter Skelton
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 23 Oct 2007 04:36 GMT >>>>> We need to ramp up to WARTIME RULES... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'd say that GWB's effect on the dollar has enhanced tourism, at > least from hard currency countries. Yes - I can't deny that's true. Since the US dollar went down the toilet I notice that the Euros have been buying up Florida and the West Coast wholesale. That's not really 'tourism' though - more carpet-bagging really. I can only go by the experience of many people I know who now choose to fly to London via KL or Hong Kong in order to avoid like the plague the trained gorillas and interminable queues at 'security' in LA. It wouldn't be so bad if it was in any way effective or achieved anything, but from the accounts I've heard the whole 'system' seems to be designed merely to piss people off and to look as if they are doing 'something' rather than actually catch any would-be plane hijackers.
The Fifeshire Bimbo - 23 Oct 2007 06:32 GMT > "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote <snip>
>> For the past few years, I have found the US border guards >> courteous and accomodating. <snip>
> I can only go by the experience of many people I know who now choose to > fly to London via KL or Hong Kong in order to avoid like the plague the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > merely to piss people off and to look as if they are doing 'something' > rather than actually catch any would-be plane hijackers. This article that I read in my local paper last week would seem to prove your point O Adorable One. I can't be bothered writing for permission to quote so please have the patience to read the whole article. Even you may be shocked at the utter stupidity of the treatment of a triple amputee (he lives in Brooklyn) by airport security when he was trying to fly to North Carolina where he has a son who is in the U.S. air force.
It seems we're being bullied into putting up fences around our harbour :(
http://www.thespec.com/article/267575
Cheers, Helen
D. Spencer Hines - 23 Oct 2007 08:59 GMT Nonsense!
Such security measures are obviously quite necessary around harbors and harbours.
We are AT WAR.
Global Islamofascist Jihadist Terrorists want to kill us -- they have cells in North America, composed of native-born citizens who speak Good English and who don't look like terrorists.
Further, an artificial leg could be one of the easiest ways of getting explosives and/or weapons onto an aircraft.
Wake Up & Get Real...
Lose Your Naïveté.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Deus Vult
> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Cheers, Helen Adam Whyte-Settlar - 23 Oct 2007 09:26 GMT >> "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to quote so please have the patience to read the whole article. Even you > may be shocked at the utter stupidity of the treatment of a triple amputee Not in the slightest. As the trained gorilla explained; "We are not allowed to use judgment". It's all so ridiculous whichever way you look at it. If it's just to keep Cheney's "climate of fear" going to justify further attacks on oil-rich countries and remove hard won freedoms it's disgusting, and if there really *is* a 'worldwide terrorist threat' then the terrorists are winning easily thanks to our own government's stupidity. Bin Laden and Co must be laughing their ***** off at the years of self-induced mayhem and shows of cowardice they sparked with so little effort.
What happened to the 'business as usual' attitude of the British during the Blitz. Our parents would be ashamed of us.
Paul J Gans - 23 Oct 2007 19:16 GMT In alt.history.british Adam Whyte-Settlar <none@none> wrote:
>>> "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> to quote so please have the patience to read the whole article. Even you >> may be shocked at the utter stupidity of the treatment of a triple amputee
>Not in the slightest. As the trained gorilla explained; "We are not allowed >to use judgment". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >self-induced mayhem and shows of cowardice they sparked with so little >effort.
>What happened to the 'business as usual' attitude of the British during the >Blitz. Our parents would be ashamed of us. You denigrate our Great Leaders? You bad person you. Who else, in modern history has lost one war, is losing another, and is looking for a third one to lose before he goes out of office.
I'll bet your lilly-livered leadership can't even come close to matching *that* record.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
The Highlander - 25 Oct 2007 08:30 GMT >In alt.history.british Adam Whyte-Settlar <none@none> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >I'll bet your lilly-livered leadership can't even come close to >matching *that* record. God knows they tried!
Cory Bhreckan - 23 Oct 2007 19:20 GMT >>> "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote >> <snip> >> >>>> For the past few years, I have found the US border guards >>>> courteous and accomodating. >> <snip>
> If it's just to keep Cheney's "climate of fear" going to justify further > attacks on oil-rich countries and remove hard won freedoms it's disgusting, > and if there really *is* a 'worldwide terrorist threat' then the terrorists > are winning easily thanks to our own government's stupidity. > Bin Laden and Co must be laughing their ***** off at the years of You can't even spell ****** correctly, you illiterate oaf.
 Signature "For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 24 Oct 2007 03:49 GMT >>>> "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote >>> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You can't even spell ****** correctly, you illiterate oaf. It wasn't *****, it was ***** - as was obvious from the context, moron.
Vince - 24 Oct 2007 04:56 GMT >>>>> "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote >>>> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > It wasn't *****, it was ***** - as was obvious from the context, moron. now that is funny
Vince
Roger Conroy - 24 Oct 2007 10:51 GMT > > "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Cheers, Helen The problem is that George's speech impediment makes it impossible to tell wether he is talking about "Terrorists" or "Tourists"
The lyrics of an anti-apartheid song from 1987:
WEEPING by Bright Blue
I knew a man who lived in fear it was huge it was angry it was drawing near Behind his house a secret place was the shadow of the demon he could never face.
He built a wall of steel and flame and men with guns to keep it tame Then standing back he made it plain that the nightmare would never ever rise again But the fear and the fire and the guns remain.
It doesn't matter now it's over anyhow He tells the world that it's sleeping But as the night came round I heard it slowly sound it wasn't roaring it was weeping it wasn't roaring it was weeping.
And then one day the neighbours came they were curious to know about the smoke and flame They stood around outside the wall but of course there was nothing to be heard at all "My friends", he said, "we've reached our goal the threat is under firm control As long as peace and order reign I'll be damned if I can see a reason to explain Why the fear and the fire and the guns remain".
It doesn't matter now it's over anyhow He tells the world that it's sleeping But as the night came round I heard it slowly sound it wasn't roaring it was weeping it wasn't roaring it was weeping.
It doesn't matter now it's over anyhow He tells the world that it's sleeping But as the night came round I heard it slowly sound it wasn't roaring it was weeping it wasn't roaring it was weeping.
Composed by: Heymann/ Fox/ Cohen/ Cohen
Recorded and released by Bright Blue in 1987. One of South Africa's greatest songs... includes instrumental references to 'Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrica'.
http://www.rock.co.za/files/weeping_lyrics.html
William Black - 24 Oct 2007 11:33 GMT > The problem is that George's speech impediment makes it impossible to > tell wether he is talking about "Terrorists" or "Tourists" As the US Immigration service treats them all the same, who cares?
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Paul J Gans - 24 Oct 2007 16:32 GMT In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogerconroy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> Cheers, Helen
>The problem is that George's speech impediment makes it impossible to >tell wether he is talking about "Terrorists" or "Tourists" I'm not sure he knows the difference.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
La N - 24 Oct 2007 19:57 GMT > In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogerconroy@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > I'm not sure he knows the difference. I said a bad thing about him on the Usenets a couple of years ago after which I had to take my sandals off at the airport to fly from Vancouver to LAX!
- nilita (terrorista)
Jack Linthicum - 24 Oct 2007 20:08 GMT > > In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogercon...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > - nilita (terrorista) Interesting observation that the Daddy Party seems to have become the Baby Party.
The hysterical party heads for the fainting couch
A month ago, congressional Republicans were so desperate to avoid discussing the substance of U.S. policy towards Iraq, they decided a newspaper ad from MoveOn.org was the single biggest threat to Western Civilization in recent history. The coordinated hissy fit was a transparent effort to distract attention from the issue at hand, but it was also a largely successful sham -- Republicans stopped talking about Bush's failed policy and started talking about the NYT's ad rates.
This month, those same congressional Republicans are so desperate to avoid discussing the substance of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), they've decided Rep. Pete Stark (D-Calif.) has replaced MoveOn as Public Enemy #1.
Far be it for me to give Republicans advice, but I don't think they've thought this one through.
For the record, what did Stark say to send the right into high dudgeon? During the debate on overriding the president's veto for children's healthcare, Stark said, "You don't have money to fund the war or children, but you're gonna spend it blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their head blown off for the president's amusement."
Intemperate? Sure. But the coordinated hysteria we've seen over the last few days is more than misguided; it's silly.
There's just no reason for apoplexy here. Stark said something mean about Bush during a congressional debate. The president is a big boy; I think he can handle it. But by throwing a tantrum, congressional Republicans are suggesting that they can't handle it. They're not grown-ups. Random, intemperate criticism of Bush is just too much for the fragile, virgin ears.
In other words, by throwing a fit, Republicans end up looking weak and hysterical. Indeed, it reinforces the least flattering GOP caricature of all -- these guys can't govern, but they can fall onto a fainting couch like nobody's business.
For years, Republicans worked to create the opposite reputation. They're tough. This is the macho "daddy party." They don't care about "political correctness" and wussies who cry over words that rub people the wrong way. This is a crowd that calls it like they see it, and doesn't look bad or apologize.
And yet, they've now spent the better part of a year trembling over mild rebukes from liberals. If Democrats were smart, they'd look at this as an opportunity to rebrand the GOP as pathetic cry-babies who can barely go a week without throwing a hissy fit over one manufactured outrage or another. Alas, it doesn't look like Dems are smart at all.
La N - 24 Oct 2007 20:13 GMT >> > In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogercon...@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > manufactured outrage or another. Alas, it doesn't look like Dems are > smart at all. Jayzus Murphy! You'd think Hines was in charge of the GOP these days.
- nilita
Fred J. McCall - 25 Oct 2007 03:40 GMT :>> > In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogercon...@gmail.com> wrote: :>> [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] : :Jayzus Murphy! You'd think Hines was in charge of the GOP these days. I find the sort of people you two elect to defend rather telling about YOU.
 Signature You are What you do When it counts.
The Highlander - 25 Oct 2007 08:34 GMT >:>> > In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogercon...@gmail.com> wrote: >:>> [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] >I find the sort of people you two elect to defend rather telling >about YOU. Well, as a certified bona-fide closet Nazi, you would, wouldn't you!
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 25 Oct 2007 01:00 GMT >> In alt.history.british Roger Conroy <rogerconroy@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > which I had to take my sandals off at the airport to fly from Vancouver to > LAX! All 69 million (?roughly) passengers that pass through Heathrow each year have to take their shoes or sandals off in case they are hiding bombs in their socks. If that isn't ridiculous enough they also all have to walk across the same filthy sweaty piece of floor in bare or stockinged feet. On the other side of this disease spreading area there are three (count them) dirty plastic chairs in a row to cater for the 700 shoeless passengers per hour replacing said shoes. This has been going on for about 4 years now and in all that time and in all the 560,000,000 shoes that have been removed for search they have discovered a grand total of zero bombs hidden in people's socks. They don't record how many cases of verucas or athletes foot have been spread thoughout the country in the same time.
Disgusted of Cairns.
William Black - 25 Oct 2007 17:11 GMT > All 69 million (?roughly) passengers that pass through Heathrow each year > have to take their shoes or sandals off in case they are hiding bombs in > their socks. Nope.
Transit passengers only ever did for about a month, and that's about a third of them.
The 'shoes off' routine had certainly ceased being imposed on everyone going through the ground side/air side interface in UK airports by December last year.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Paul J Gans - 25 Oct 2007 18:07 GMT In alt.history.british William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> All 69 million (?roughly) passengers that pass through Heathrow each year >> have to take their shoes or sandals off in case they are hiding bombs in >> their socks.
>Nope.
>Transit passengers only ever did for about a month, and that's about a third >of them.
>The 'shoes off' routine had certainly ceased being imposed on everyone going >through the ground side/air side interface in UK airports by December last >year. We still do it in the US. Here the government never admits a mistake, so we will be taking our shoes off for the indefinite future.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
Turlough - 26 Oct 2007 00:19 GMT > We still do it in the US. Here the government never admits a > mistake, so we will be taking our shoes off for the indefinite > future. As well we should, Mr. Gans. What mistake did the government make this time? Isn't that *nglishman, Reid, still in jail for trying to blow up an airliner with plastic explosives, the detonator hidden in the lining of his shoes? I'll take off my shoes, Mr. Gans. You can go meet the virgins...
Turlough
Paul J Gans - 26 Oct 2007 00:48 GMT In alt.history.british Turlough <turlough@comcast.net> wrote:
>> We still do it in the US. Here the government never admits a >> mistake, so we will be taking our shoes off for the indefinite >> future.
>As well we should, Mr. Gans. What mistake did the government make this >time? Isn't that *nglishman, Reid, still in jail for trying to blow up >an airliner with plastic explosives, the detonator hidden in the lining >of his shoes? I'll take off my shoes, Mr. Gans. You can go meet the >virgins... You managed quite by accident to delete the post to which I was responding. The British, who are the ones that caught Reid, seem to have abandoned the taking off of shoes.
Why do you suppose that is?
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 26 Oct 2007 07:14 GMT > In alt.history.british Turlough <turlough@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why do you suppose that is? As I said earlier - the Americans are so sh.t-scared of everything their people-sheeple are only too willing to go along with the sham and the 'authorities' are only too willing to pretend they are doing 'something' constructive. Cowardly and ridiculous. The terrorists must be laughing their socks off at the stupidity of it all.
Paul J Gans - 26 Oct 2007 16:53 GMT In alt.history.british Adam Whyte-Settlar <none@none> wrote:
>> In alt.history.british Turlough <turlough@comcast.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Why do you suppose that is?
>As I said earlier - the Americans are so sh.t-scared of everything their >people-sheeple are only too willing to go along with the sham and the >'authorities' are only too willing to pretend they are doing 'something' >constructive. >Cowardly and ridiculous. The terrorists must be laughing their socks off at >the stupidity of it all. Yup. The number of ways to bring down an airliner while suiciding one's self is enormous.
As long as one can smuggle contraband into the US on passenger planes (as is done routinely) there is no real safety, only harrassment of the law-abiding.
As you say, sh.t-scared of everything.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
William Black - 26 Oct 2007 14:47 GMT > In alt.history.british Turlough <turlough@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why do you suppose that is? Probably because Reid smoked but he didn't go bang and nobody seems to have produced a working 'shoe bomb'.
The last pronouncement by a senior police officer in the UK claiming massive terrorist activity and 'we must all be very afraid' didn't go down well.
You can't keep selling the sizzle, every so often you've got to produce a sausage.
The last sausage we saw was a kid who happened to have a copy of 'The Anarchist's Cook Book' on his computer, who everyone felt vaguely sorry for because he was a bit sad...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Turlough - 28 Oct 2007 18:15 GMT >>As well we should, Mr. Gans. What mistake did the government make this >>time? Isn't that *nglishman, Reid, still in jail for trying to blow up [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>through the ground side/air side interface in UK airports by December last >>year. We still do it in the US. Here the government never admits a mistake, so we will be taking our shoes off for the indefinite future.
I've added the post you replied to, Mr. Gans, but you haven't made clear what *mistake* you referred to. Don't you believe in precautions? The biggest mistake I've seen in years was the gov't not rounding up all the foreigners taking flight lessons. But, of course, who would ever have thought that these degenerates would have done what they did? Would you rather just take your chances, in this day and age?
Fred J. McCall - 28 Oct 2007 20:21 GMT :>>As well we should, Mr. Gans. What mistake did the government make this :>>time? Isn't that *nglishman, Reid, still in jail for trying to blow up [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] :thought that these degenerates would have done what they did? Would you :rather just take your chances, in this day and age? Ask yourself if anyone has ever successfully used a 'shoe bomb', either in the US or elsewhere.
While you're at it, take a look at the 'exceptions' to the "4 oz containers of fluid or gel" rule. You might also ask yourself that since you can have as many of those 4 oz containers as you can fit in a quart bag just what it is that's being 'prevented' by this silly policy.
Nobody has ever put a bomb in a laptop computer, either, but you still have to put them (but not any other electronics) through the scan separate from everything else.
 Signature You have never lived until you have almost died. Life has a special meaning that the protected will never know.
Turlough - 28 Oct 2007 21:22 GMT > Ask yourself if anyone has ever successfully used a 'shoe bomb', > either in the US or elsewhere. It makes more sense to ask if it is a possibility. Since I believe it is, then several extra minutes to check out everyone's shoes surely cannot be that big an inconvenience...
D. Spencer Hines - 28 Oct 2007 21:44 GMT There are also quite excellent ADDITIONAL REASONS why the shoes-off technique is a very useful tool of the Transportation Security Administration.
Gans displays a remarkable Ignorance and lack of Imagination concerning those reasons.
'Nuff Said.
We don't want to tip off the Islamofascist Jihadist Terrorists.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus
>> Ask yourself if anyone has ever successfully used a 'shoe bomb', >> either in the US or elsewhere. > > It makes more sense to ask if it is a possibility. Since I believe it is, > then several extra minutes to check out everyone's shoes surely cannot be > that big an inconvenience... Fred J. McCall - 28 Oct 2007 22:04 GMT :> Ask yourself if anyone has ever successfully used a 'shoe bomb', :> either in the US or elsewhere. : :It makes more sense to ask if it is a possibility. Since I believe it :is, then several extra minutes to check out everyone's shoes surely :cannot be that big an inconvenience... By that reasoning, we should all fly nude after having gone through a cavity check and endoscopy.
After all, it's *possible* that someone could jam a bomb up their a.s or pussy or swallow one or something...
The problem with wasting time and energy doing something that doesn't have any positive effect is that it is time and energy that you could have expended doing something that WOULD make a difference.
You don't fly much, do you?
 Signature "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson
William Black - 28 Oct 2007 22:32 GMT >> Ask yourself if anyone has ever successfully used a 'shoe bomb', >> either in the US or elsewhere. > > It makes more sense to ask if it is a possibility. Since I believe it is, > then several extra minutes to check out everyone's shoes surely cannot be > that big an inconvenience... I have yet to see a demonstration of an effective device capable of doing serious damage to an aircraft made from a shoe.
I have seen car bombs, truck bombs, culvert bombs, home made incendiary bombs and a variety of other infernal devices demonstrated over the years, but never an effective home made shoe bomb.
I therefore beg leave to doubt that such a device is possible...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Bryn - 28 Oct 2007 22:51 GMT Needing no introduction "an" Usenet stalwart wrote:
>>> Ask yourself if anyone has ever successfully used a 'shoe bomb', >>> either in the US or elsewhere. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I therefore beg leave to doubt that such a device is possible... Certainly not lit with matches...
 Signature Bryn
That's OK, I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway.
To email remove GREMILNS
CJ Adams - 29 Oct 2007 03:39 GMT > I have seen car bombs, truck bombs, culvert bombs, home made incendiary > bombs and a variety of other infernal devices demonstrated over the years, > but never an effective home made shoe bomb. > > I therefore beg leave to doubt that such a device is possible... I respectfully beg to differ but am at the same time unwilling to go into details to back up my point of view.
Let us leave the matter there.
Cheers CJ Adams
D. Spencer Hines - 29 Oct 2007 04:27 GMT > I respectfully beg to differ but am at the same time unwilling to go into > details to back up my point of view. Wise...
> Let us leave the matter there. Indeed.
We don't want to educate the terrorists.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>> I have seen car bombs, truck bombs, culvert bombs, home made incendiary >> bombs and a variety of other infernal devices demonstrated over the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Cheers > CJ Adams William Black - 29 Oct 2007 12:36 GMT >> I have seen car bombs, truck bombs, culvert bombs, home made incendiary >> bombs and a variety of other infernal devices demonstrated over the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Let us leave the matter there. Translation:
I could tell you but I'd have to shoot you.
It is reasonable to assume that if there is a working 'shoe bomb' technology then the terrorists know all about it as they built one.
It is then therefore reasonable to assume that there's no secret to be kept.
So why won't someone show us how deadly they are?
When the country was being blown up on a weekly basis by the IRA there were films on the TV every month or so showing people what the bloody things looked like, how dangerous they were and where they'd been planted.
In this silly little conflict it seems what the bad guys already know is too secret for the potential victims to be told.
If they won't tell me then they're either lying or they've got something to hide.
I think they've got something to hide.
What's more I have a nasty suspicion that it's that the shoe bomb couldn't hurt a fly, never mind a large aircraft, and that the people in charge are playing 'I'm in charge' games in a desperate effort to frighten me.
Well I'm sorry, you can cower in a hole if you want to, I don't frighten that easily.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Jack Linthicum - 29 Oct 2007 12:59 GMT On Oct 29, 7:36 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >> I have seen car bombs, truck bombs, culvert bombs, home made incendiary > >> bombs and a variety of other infernal devices demonstrated over the [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. You miss the point. You have to keep the deadly things concealed because the main product of both the terrorists and the government is fear. Without fear we would have half our troops back from Iraq now and more heading out. The Democrats are so filled with the fear created to counter any wisdom that they cannot use the same tactics and straegy the other party used in the 90s, when they were a bare majority: keep hammering, sooner or later the door or wall comes down.
We have a government now that uses the tacts of the enemy, fear, to counter terrorism. A piece of irony you could not imagine if you weren't watching it happen.
a.spencer3 - 29 Oct 2007 13:46 GMT > >> I have seen car bombs, truck bombs, culvert bombs, home made incendiary > >> bombs and a variety of other infernal devices demonstrated over the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Well I'm sorry, you can cower in a hole if you want to, I don't frighten > that easily. He's talking of shoes being inspected going into Hawaii so that the wrong bugs aren't imported. They're the only bugs he comes across these days.
Surreyman
David Hansen - 29 Oct 2007 14:22 GMT On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:36:29 -0000 someone who may be "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote this:-
>If they won't tell me then they're either lying or they've got something to >hide. > >I think they've got something to hide. Sounds like it to me too.
I see from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7066944.stm that the so-called security idiots in the USA have had another go at a minister. We are often told that the USA needs all sorts of information on people going to that unwelcoming country for "intelligence".
 Signature David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
Jack Linthicum - 29 Oct 2007 14:50 GMT On Oct 29, 9:24 am, David Hansen <SENDdavidNOhS...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:36:29 -0000 someone who may be "William > Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote this:- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > information on people going to that unwelcoming country for > "intelligence". Well, if you are as dumb as a tree you look for any source for increased intelligence
William Black - 29 Oct 2007 14:59 GMT > On Oct 29, 9:24 am, David Hansen <SENDdavidNOhS...@spidacom.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Well, if you are as dumb as a tree you look for any source for > increased intelligence This is the second time this particular gentleman has been turned inside out by the imbecilic US airport security cops.
He is, for those of you who don't know, a Muslim who also happens to be a British government minister...
As he has just addressed a conference, alongside the FBI, on terrorism, it seem likely that 'intelligence' is what they seek rather than what they have...
Because 'brown and Muslim' is not really a good reason for doing special checks on people.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Jack Linthicum - 29 Oct 2007 15:08 GMT On Oct 29, 9:59 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 9:24 am, David Hansen <SENDdavidNOhS...@spidacom.co.uk> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Little note from the blogosphere, at the Portland Maine International Airport--the preferred airport for terrorists--the Transportation Safety people have been seen drinking at the bar, in uniform. You have to realize that there are now more than 700,000 names on the terror suspect list, and it is not easy to scan though all of them so they just harrass the people that look "brown". This guy must look suspicious if it's his second time. If the airport security types were smart they would be smuggling cocaine.
David Hansen - 29 Oct 2007 15:40 GMT On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:08:55 -0700 someone who may be Jack Linthicum <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote this:-
>You have >to realize that there are now more than 700,000 names on the terror >suspect list, Which demonstrates that such lists are of little or no value.
>and it is not easy to scan though all of them so they >just harrass the people that look "brown". This guy must look >suspicious if it's his second time. He is an MP in the Labour Party, which makes him a suspicious character in my view. However the terrorism he and his political party are involved in [1] involves mounting illegal invasions of countries and the consequent blowing up of people and things in countries a long way away from the UK or USA. The chances of this terrorist blowing up aeroplanes between the USA and UK are just about non-existent.
[1] http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/shahid_malik/dewsbury confirms that he was not in the Westminster parliament at the time of th4e vote for the illegal invasion. However, his record since then indicates that he would almost certainly have eagerly voted for the killing of what is now over a million people in Iraq, had he been able to. One of a number of dangerous criminals which officials have not even tried to prosecute.
 Signature David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
James Christie - 29 Oct 2007 16:41 GMT >Little note from the blogosphere, at the Portland Maine International >Airport--the preferred airport for terrorists--the Transportation [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >suspicious if it's his second time. If the airport security types were >smart they would be smuggling cocaine. Dressed in a smart suit with shirt, tie and briefcase looks suspicious?
 Signature James Christie
Jack Linthicum - 29 Oct 2007 17:39 GMT On Oct 29, 11:41 am, James Christie <ja...@christie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <1193666935.316960.89...@v3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Jack > Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> writes>Little note from the blogosphere, at the Portland Maine International [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > James Christie How smart was the suit? The old tale from the District of Columbia was that the local teens thought all you needed to become rich and famous was dress smart and carry a briefcase. You might remember a lot of the TSA people come from that era and that background.
William Black - 29 Oct 2007 20:53 GMT > On Oct 29, 11:41 am, James Christie <ja...@christie.demon.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > was dress smart and carry a briefcase. You might remember a lot of > the TSA people come from that era and that background. Son of the mayor of Burnley, came up through the Training and Enterprise Council system, career politician, New Labour all the way.
He'll have an expensive haircut, creases in his beautifully cut bespoke suit you could slice bread with and a briefcase that would cost most people a week's wages.
He's what's known here as 'Labour Aristocracy'.
It seems he's also spitting feathers because he was assured the first time that it was all a ghastly mistake and it wouldn't ever happen again...
Here is a direct quotation from the BBC news web site:
"The abusive attitude I endured last November I forgot about and I forgave, but I really do believe that British ministers and parliamentarians should be afforded the same respect and dignity at USA airports that we would bestow upon our colleagues in the Senate and Congress."
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Gregory - 30 Oct 2007 01:57 GMT >>On Oct 29, 11:41 am, James Christie <ja...@christie.demon.co.uk> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > suit you could slice bread with and a briefcase that would cost most people > a week's wages. He should have asked Bob Geldof or somebody important & famous to go with him, Bono might have been available.
Fred J. McCall - 30 Oct 2007 03:44 GMT :> How smart was the suit? The old tale from the District of Columbia was :> that the local teens thought all you needed to become rich and famous :> was dress smart and carry a briefcase. You might remember a lot of :> the TSA people come from that era and that background. Poppycock!
 Signature "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson
Jack Linthicum - 30 Oct 2007 11:42 GMT > ::"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." > -- Thomas Jefferson Yeah, you live a sheltered life, Fred. And it was an attache case and a smart suit.
"The Rise and Fall of Rayful Edmond III" starts in the only place it could. North East, DC around 1980. While Nancy Reagan cried "Just Say No" and mandatory minimum prison sentencing and conspiracy laws were lurking just around the corner, a young Rayful Edmond III started his path to become the most notorious and successful drug kingpin in the DC area. The film profiles his life from a child selling drugs on street corners; rise to lavish fast-paced lifestyle enjoying the best money could buy; and fall - the infamous drug bust that took down Edmond and 30 family members friends and associates. A bust made possible by an organization breach on the highest level - greed and disloyalty of both his childhood school mate and confidant, and a woman he trusted immeasurably. But his reign was not over. As did Avon from HBO's "The Wire", Edmond continued to run his empire from behind bars, using Columbia drug dealer contacts made while serving two life sentences, to expand his drug trafficking operation. In turn he received additional 30 years to his sentence. But still you have to ask if it's truly over. If you are from the DC area and have heard buzz about Edmond; the film leaves rumors unaddressed, perhaps to protect the innocent and maybe the guilty as well. Nonetheless, what is revealed what many are unaware of - his childhood, and family ties to crime dating back to the 1950's, painting a picture of one who never stood a chance to think of aiming to excel anywhere outside of the only world he knew. No matter where you are from, if you like crime, social & cultural, or biographical documentaries, you will find this film an interesting, great start for new Director-producer Kirk Fraser. Other than shameless plugs for a clothing line owned by the co- producer, the flow of the film was targeted - hitting the mark. A definite must-watch intriguing story of wealth, self-indulgence, disloyalty, and tragedy - an overall great depiction of Edmond's life.
Fred J. McCall - 29 Oct 2007 15:28 GMT :This is the second time this particular gentleman has been turned inside out :by the imbecilic US airport security cops. 'Turned inside out'? What a preposterous image! We do random checks here, Willie. All that involves is being taken aside, wanded, and having your carryon hand checked.
:He is, for those of you who don't know, a Muslim who also happens to be a :British government minister... Which is, of course, irrelevant.
:As he has just addressed a conference, alongside the FBI, on terrorism, it :seem likely that 'intelligence' is what they seek rather than what they :have... You act as if TSA would have been informed of all that. They wouldn't.
:Because 'brown and Muslim' is not really a good reason for doing special :checks on people. That's why they're not done that way. However, when you check people at random, you're going to get a certain number of 'brown and Muslim' types.
They can't ALL be little old ladies, Willie...
Note: Another thing that will get you 'hand-checked' is if you don't remove your shoes and put them through the scanner. Then they have to wand you and such.
 Signature "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn
William Black - 29 Oct 2007 20:44 GMT > :This is the second time this particular gentleman has been turned inside > out [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > remove your shoes and put them through the scanner. Then they have to > wand you and such. Rubbish.
He was a British government minister on official business.
This is the second time he got pulled and asked to empty his hand luggage so a special check can be done for explosives.
It's reasonably obvious that their computer systems don't even bother to check who people are, what they are doing, or how many times they've 'popped' someone for this check.
He's also complaining about the attitude of the people doing the checking.
The fact is that the system is obviously broken, they're pulling people based on some imbecilic profile, and well dressed Muslims with brown skin colour and carrying a British passports fit the profile.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
D. Spencer Hines - 29 Oct 2007 22:07 GMT Rubbish...
They are rude to all of us.
Their arses are on the line and they know it.
Pogue Black needs to get used to WARTIME RULES AND REGULATIONS.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Rubbish. > > He was a British government minister on official business....
> He's also complaining about the attitude of the people doing the checking. James Christie - 29 Oct 2007 22:17 GMT >Rubbish... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >DSH Oh we're at war are we? I must have missed that one. By the way the term 'wartime' is bandied about by some of you and the criteria attached to it, there will never, ever be a time when we're not at 'war'. Please learn to use the term as per its original application.
 Signature James Christie
John Briggs - 30 Oct 2007 01:25 GMT >> Rubbish... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > Oh we're at war are we? I must have missed that one. Don't you know there's awar on?
:-)  Signature John Briggs
William Black - 29 Oct 2007 22:18 GMT > Rubbish... > > They are rude to all of us. > > Their arses are on the line and they know it. They certainly are this time.
Who is going to get sacked?
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
John Briggs - 30 Oct 2007 01:25 GMT >> Rubbish... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Who is going to get sacked? No-one. Nothing will happen until we retaliate at Heathrow.
 Signature John Briggs
James Christie - 30 Oct 2007 01:53 GMT >>> Rubbish... >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >No-one. Nothing will happen until we retaliate at Heathrow. Exactly. They will continue in their unfounded belief that they are right and everyone else must be wrong until someone gives them a taste of their own medicine. I can remember one such potent example: Back in the day (circa 70 years ago), all crews of foreign Merchant (cargo) ships entering the US for the first time had to undergo the 'short arm inspection'. Basically, before being issued with your 'alien' pass and being allowed ashore, you had to line up in front of a doctor who checked your privates for anything nasty. It didn't happen on the passenger ships, just the cargo ships. It's quite absurd when you think about it now. Even back then there was much hullabaloo about such a practice, privacy, rights of the individual etc, but as usual the US knew best. That was until the French got involved (the didn't care much for it either). So doing what no one else would dare to do, the French waited until a US passenger ship arrived at Cherbourg. They boarded it and nobody was allowed off the ship until all the Men AND women had seen the doctor for their 'inspection'. When I say everyone, I mean everyone - crew, passengers - the lot! Our French cousins made it quite clear that this would be repeated on *every* US ship that visited its ports until the practice was stopped in the US. Apparently there were some influential people onboard, senators, relatives of high heid yins in Govt, Judges, basically the US upper classes. Result? Practice stopped within weeks!
 Signature James Christie
William Black - 30 Oct 2007 11:26 GMT >>> Rubbish... >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > No-one. Nothing will happen until we retaliate at Heathrow. That one seems to be bouncing off.
British immigration officials have been giving US tourists a hard time for years in retaliation for the treatment dished out to British tourists going to the USA.
As far as I'm aware, no change so far...
Of course if they start strip searching US politicians of Irish extraction it would probably make something of a stir...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Jack Linthicum - 30 Oct 2007 14:07 GMT On Oct 30, 6:26 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> Rubbish... > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. You might take a little solace from the fact that a very liberal newscaster, Keith Olbermann, gave out his "Worst Person in the World" award to the Homeland Security Department
Oct. 29: Department of Homeland Security Oct. 29: For the second time this year, the Homeland Security Department has detained Shahid Malik of Great Britain at a U.S. airport. He's the British Minister for International Development.
William Black - 30 Oct 2007 14:18 GMT > On Oct 30, 6:26 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Department has detained Shahid Malik of Great Britain at a U.S. > airport. He's the British Minister for International Development. So it has actually made the news there.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Paul J Gans - 30 Oct 2007 17:02 GMT In soc.history.medieval Jack Linthicum <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Oct 30, 6:26 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach >> Time for tea.
>You might take a little solace from the fact that a very liberal >newscaster, Keith Olbermann, gave out his "Worst Person in the World" >award to the Homeland Security Department
>Oct. 29: Department of Homeland Security >Oct. 29: For the second time this year, the Homeland Security >Department has detained Shahid Malik of Great Britain at a U.S. >airport. He's the British Minister for International Development. Excellent! At least somebody is covering it.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans - 30 Oct 2007 17:01 GMT In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Rubbish... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> No-one. Nothing will happen until we retaliate at Heathrow.
>That one seems to be bouncing off.
>British immigration officials have been giving US tourists a hard time for >years in retaliation for the treatment dished out to British tourists going >to the USA.
>As far as I'm aware, no change so far... That's because it gets no coverage in the US. The folks being hassled don't know and certainly nobody who is staying home knows.
>Of course if they start strip searching US politicians of Irish extraction >it would probably make something of a stir... Oh my gosh. Profiling! :-)
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines - 30 Oct 2007 19:24 GMT > That's because it gets no coverage in the US. The folks being > hassled don't know and certainly nobody who is staying home > knows. ---------------------------------------------------------
Utter Nonsense...
Matt Drudge linked to this article yesterday.
<http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071029121104.dh6a9n7w&show_article=1>
This is another excellent example of Pogue Gans babbling about something about which he is totally ignorant -- because he is blinkered and doesn't READ the standard sources for breaking news.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
Peter Skelton - 30 Oct 2007 20:32 GMT >> That's because it gets no coverage in the US. The folks being >> hassled don't know and certainly nobody who is staying home [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >about which he is totally ignorant -- because he is blinkered and doesn't >READ the standard sources for breaking news. So a link on a notorious right-wing nut-site to an international news-feed is "US coverage" in Spencer-space?
Peter Skelton
Gregory - 30 Oct 2007 01:50 GMT >>Rubbish... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Who is going to get sacked? Did anybody get sacked for allowng (FBI identified) pedophiles to give swimming lessons in British schools to little kids?
Nah.
G.
Paul J Gans - 30 Oct 2007 03:36 GMT In alt.history.british William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Rubbish... >> >> They are rude to all of us. >> >> Their arses are on the line and they know it.
>They certainly are this time.
>Who is going to get sacked? Absolutely nobody. The incident didn't even make the papers in the US. Our government simply does not care.
And, I gather, neither does yours or your PM would have lodged a loud, public protest with Washington.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines - 30 Oct 2007 04:38 GMT The next time Pogue Gans is told to take off his shoes at an airport he should stand by his principles and in his shoes -- then loudly protest that he is NOT going to take any further part in this Shoes-Off Charade ---- and that we should all stand up and yell "I'm Mad As Hell, And I'm Not Going To Take It Anymore!"
Then, after the TSA does a painful and degrading body-cavity search on Gans AND yanks off his shoes for good measure ---- he can file an official complaint through his Senator, Hillary Rodham Clinton -- and one through his other Senator, Charlie Schumer -- and we'll see what happens.
Deeeeelightful!
When is Gans flying again?...
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
J Antero - 29 Oct 2007 23:34 GMT > Rubbish... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Pogue Black needs to get used to WARTIME RULES AND REGULATIONS. If you think this minor conflict we're involved in is "war", how would you get along and deal with a real war?
God, do some reading. Start with what the Gemans and the Russians were dealing with in their war of 1941 to '45.
Gregory - 30 Oct 2007 01:48 GMT > The fact is that the system is obviously broken, they're pulling people > based on some imbecilic profile, and well dressed Muslims with brown skin > colour and carrying a British passports fit the profile. Why should anybody be spared the inconvenience the Labour govt. consented to allow? The Brits have very little to offer except foraging rights, therefore that sort of thing is part of the arrangement.
At least the TSA/DOT/DHS or whatever they are called, are not shooting wrongly colored people on sight as can happen in London. We had the death penalty restored by the back door.
Fred J. McCall - 30 Oct 2007 03:43 GMT :> :This is the second time this particular gentleman has been turned inside :> out [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] : :Rubbish. Oh, rubbish yourself, you gormless git.
:He was a British government minister on official business. That's nice. Is your government so inept that it can't get him pre-cleared through security?
:This is the second time he got pulled and asked to empty his hand luggage so :a special check can be done for explosives. You have a point?
:It's reasonably obvious that their computer systems don't even bother to :check who people are, what they are doing, or how many times they've :'popped' someone for this check. Of course it doesn't check any of that stuff. That's what 'random' means.
Not to mention they don't keep a record of who gets checked, so how would they know who got checked when?
:He's also complaining about the attitude of the people doing the checking. So he's a typical whinging Brit.
:The fact is that the system is |
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