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History Forum / General / British History / November 2007



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The Civic & Religious Duties Of Our Leaders

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D. Spencer Hines - 20 Nov 2007 03:54 GMT
"It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to
worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe."

"And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person,
liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the
dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or
sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct
others in their religious worship."

-- John Adams (Thoughts on Government, 1776)

Reference: The Works of John Adams, Charles Adams, ed., 221.
HardySpicer - 20 Nov 2007 04:07 GMT
> "It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to
> worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe."
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Reference: The Works of John Adams, Charles Adams, ed., 221.

Nowwe know there isn't a great creator it kind of makes him look a bit
of a wally don't you think?

Hardy
J A - 20 Nov 2007 05:04 GMT
> "It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to
> worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe."
>
> "And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person,
> liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the
> dictates of his own conscience;

Looking at porn is part of your personal rituals?

Toilet stalls as Republican naves?
Ray O'Hara - 20 Nov 2007 05:09 GMT
> "It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to
> worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or
> sentiments;

* provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct
> others in their religious worship*."

religious whackos forget that last sentence.
allan connochie - 20 Nov 2007 06:59 GMT
> "It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to
> worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct
> others in their religious worship."

Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
is in itself intolerant!

Allan
cormac - 20 Nov 2007 12:39 GMT
> Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
> is in itself intolerant!
>
> Allan

All men? Assuming that the Supreme Being does exist how do we know
whether She wants us to worship Her of not?

Cormac.
allan connochie - 20 Nov 2007 13:05 GMT
>> Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme
>> being
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> All men? Assuming that the Supreme Being does exist how do we know
> whether She wants us to worship Her of not?

Well quite. Good point. I was only replying to what was posted though :-)

Allan
Jane Margaret Laight - 20 Nov 2007 13:34 GMT
> > Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
> > is in itself intolerant!
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Cormac.

Well look at it like this--it's a common sensical kind of thing--what
would the purpose of being a Supreme Being be if someone wasn't there
to acknowledge your Supremacy?  I mean, if you could not demonstrate
your supremacy over others to adulation and outright worship, doesn't
it defeat the purpose of being a Supreme Being? What if you put
yourself in the SB's shoes (or sandals, if that's your fancy), and you
become this really cool Supreme Being who could do all of these cool
things and no one cared?  I mean, it would really make being a Supreme
Being not worth the candle.  Imagine:

Scenario: SUPREME BEING, dressed in flowing robes and all, walking
down a city street in any city in the known world muttering to
herself:

SB: what is going on--I control the seasons, regulate the phases of
the moon, insure that the earth rotates on its axis, just to name a
few things, and do all of this neat stuff for the benefit of these
puny humans, and they do not acknowledge my greatness, my
wonderfulness, my supremacy--why do I bother? [Turns to a puny human
staring at this shimmering vision drifting by] O Puny Human, worship
me!

PH: Piss off, you crazy old bitch.

[Crushed, SB dejectedly wanders away]

In sum, I think it is a given that if there is a Supreme Being, she
would almost certainly want her subjects to worship her.

JML
ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)
deemsbill@aol.com - 20 Nov 2007 13:39 GMT
> > > Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
> > > is in itself intolerant!
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> [Crushed, SB dejectedly wanders away]

    All the while planning drought, earthquakes, pestilence,
famine...gotta keep those puny humans in line.....afterall, can't make
an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

> In sum, I think it is a given that if there is a Supreme Being, she
> would almost certainly want her subjects to worship her.
>
> JML
> ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)

  Is there an official resignation form?
The Highlander - 20 Nov 2007 16:15 GMT
>> > > Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
>> > > is in itself intolerant!
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
>   Is there an official resignation form?

No, just the usual burning at the stake.
Custos Custodum - 20 Nov 2007 14:20 GMT
>> > Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
>> > is in itself intolerant!
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>In sum, I think it is a given that if there is a Supreme Being, she
>would almost certainly want her subjects to worship her.

On the other hand, if you were omnipotent and omnipresent, why would
you need anyone to worship you? You could just make them do it. And if
they exercised free will and refused, could you still claim to be
omnipotent?

>JML
>ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)

Broke your contract?
deemsbill@aol.com - 20 Nov 2007 14:34 GMT
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:43 -0800 (PST), Jane Margaret Laight
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> they exercised free will and refused, could you still claim to be
> omnipotent?

   If you could make them do so, but chose not to.....yes.

> >JML
> >ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)
>
> Broke your contract
Custos Custodum - 20 Nov 2007 21:28 GMT
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:43 -0800 (PST), Jane Margaret Laight
>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
>    If you could make them do so, but chose not to.....yes.

But how would you know you could without actually putting it to the
test? You'd have to be omniscient as well... Hmm, gotta hand it to
those deists. They've sure got their scam sewed up watertight and
internally consistent - and utterly untestable.
Cory Bhreckan - 20 Nov 2007 21:50 GMT
>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:43 -0800 (PST), Jane Margaret Laight
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> those deists. They've sure got their scam sewed up watertight and
> internally consistent - and utterly untestable.

You can test it exactly once.

Signature

"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

Custos Custodum - 20 Nov 2007 22:40 GMT
>>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:43 -0800 (PST), Jane Margaret Laight
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
>You can test it exactly once.

But how do you get your results peer-reviewed and published?
(And before you say it: not by a ghost writer.)
Adam Whyte-Settlar - 20 Nov 2007 22:59 GMT
>>> They've sure got their scam sewed up watertight and
>>> internally consistent - and utterly untestable.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But how do you get your results peer-reviewed and published?
> (And before you say it: not by a ghost writer.)

Satan is putting these ideas into your heads.
Cory Bhreckan - 21 Nov 2007 14:05 GMT
>>>> They've sure got their scam sewed up watertight and
>>>> internally consistent - and utterly untestable.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Satan is putting these ideas into your heads.

Cite?

Signature

"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

Ray O'Hara - 21 Nov 2007 23:41 GMT
> >>> They've sure got their scam sewed up watertight and
> >>> internally consistent - and utterly untestable.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Satan is putting these ideas into your heads.

why did god make satan?
god has a weak ego and a weird sense of humour.
Cory Bhreckan - 21 Nov 2007 14:06 GMT
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:43 -0800 (PST), Jane Margaret Laight
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> But how do you get your results peer-reviewed and published?
> (And before you say it: not by a ghost writer.)

Oh, they'll be along, eventually.

Signature

"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

deemsbill@aol.com - 20 Nov 2007 23:38 GMT
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:34:25 -0800 (PST), "deemsb...@aol.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> those deists. They've sure got their scam sewed up watertight and
> internally consistent - and utterly untestable.

  What can we say....it's good to be God.
Jane Margaret Laight - 21 Nov 2007 05:18 GMT
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:43 -0800 (PST), Jane Margaret Laight
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> they exercised free will and refused, could you still claim to be
> omnipotent?

only if the supreme being decided to counter their refusal with force--
for example:

Scenario: SUPREME BEING, dressed in flowing robes and all, walking
down a city street in any city in the known world muttering to
herself:

SB: what is going on--I control the seasons, regulate the phases of
the moon, insure that the earth rotates on its axis, just to name a
few things, and do all of this neat stuff for the benefit of these
puny humans, and they do not acknowledge my greatness, my
wonderfulness, my supremacy--why do I bother? [Turns to a puny human
staring at this shimmering vision drifting by] O Puny Human, worship
me!

PH: Piss off, you crazy old bitch.

[SB launches a lightning bolt and zaps PH into a smoldering, twitching
cinder.]

SB: Hah! That'll teach them!

> >JML
> >ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)
>
> Broke your contract?

nope, resigned my commission--not much future in it

- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -
Ray O'Hara - 21 Nov 2007 23:44 GMT
"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b885a50-726f-4e88-8b41-> > >JML
> > >ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > - Show quoted text -

vestal virgins fulfilled their contract or were buried alive.
quitting was not an option.
you only needed to make it to 30.they you were free to go.
Jane Margaret Laight - 22 Nov 2007 00:29 GMT
> "Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8b885a50-726f-4e88-8b41-> > >JML
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> quitting was not an option.
> you only needed to make it to 30.they you were free to go.

actually a Vestal Virgin had to spend a total of thirty years in
service--theoretically, a candidate could show up at any age between
six and ten and be accepted, the major requirement being, of course,
that the successful candidate _was_ a virgin.  They could marry after
their service is over, but obviously, not before. The cool thing about
being one was the fact that they were probably the only "emancipated"
females in Roman society--for the honor of tending the eternal flame
of Vesta, Goddess of the hearth, the vestals were able to handle their
own affairs without the guardianship of a father or other male
relative.

At any rate, Ray, the resignation statement was a joke--you're a good
sort, but you take this way too seriously.

JML
ignis inextinctus
The Highlander - 20 Nov 2007 16:13 GMT
>> > Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
>> > is in itself intolerant!
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>JML
>ex-Vestal Virgin (resigned)

My Goddess, I feel faith coming on again!

<pause>

Nope, it was just wind...
The Highlander - 20 Nov 2007 16:11 GMT
>> Simply statting that it is the duty of all men to worship the supreme being
>> is in itself intolerant!
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Cormac.

Are we to understand that you have never actually opened a bible?
cormac - 20 Nov 2007 16:25 GMT
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:39:40 -0800 (PST), cormac
>
> Are we to understand that you have never actually opened a bible?

I have read it repeatedly and many other ancient texts. Of the many
thousands of creation myths the one in Genesis is  the craziest.

Cormac.
The Highlander - 20 Nov 2007 20:36 GMT
>> Are we to understand that you have never actually opened a bible?
>
>I have read it repeatedly and many other ancient texts. Of the many
>thousands of creation myths the one in Genesis is  the craziest.
>
>Cormac.

In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of Genesis,
there seems to be much which accords with the archeological view of
creation. The forming of the universe, our planet, etc., right down to
a nominal ancestress, nicknamed "Eve" by scientists trying to
establish the origins of Man. Her presumed dates keep varying as fresh
evidence is uncovered.
John Cartmell - 21 Nov 2007 00:19 GMT
> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of Genesis,
> there seems to be much which accords with the archeological view of
> creation. The forming of the universe, our planet, etc., right down to
> a nominal ancestress, nicknamed "Eve" by scientists trying to
> establish the origins of Man. Her presumed dates keep varying as fresh
> evidence is uncovered.

No.
Read Genesis again and you will find that the formation of the Universe and of
the Earth (nothing to do with archaeologists by the way) are described
entirely differently than in fact.
You are also completely wrong about Eve (in the scientific sense) as she has
absolutely nothing to do with the origin of our species. The individual
labelled Eve by geneticists lived many thousands of years after the first
members of our species and lived at the same time as many other women (and
men) of our species. She is labelled Eve because she is the latest woman from
whom we are all descended in the maternal line. On the other hand the latest
man from whom we are all descended in the paternal line (Adam!) lived
thousands of years later than Eve.

Try reading "The Journey of Man" by Spencer Wells (lots of alternatives
available but don't read an account written earlier than 4 or 5 years ago as
the information is coming in fast).

You could describe Genesis as a statement of scientific knowledge of 3,000
years ago - except that you would be wrong. The authors were quite ignorant of
science for their time and the description was badly out of date 5,000 years
before it was written.

Signature

    John Cartmell    john@finnybank.com    0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
    Qercus magazine    FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
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deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Nov 2007 04:29 GMT
> In article <amg6k3d6fkq8vfq563hgent4tkb8khd...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> science for their time and the description was badly out of date 5,000 years
> before it was written.

  It was out of date in 6000BC? Where, Atlantis?

  Genesis is the Creation Myth of the people who became the Jews. It
was intended for its audience and does a fine job as such. Somehow I
doubt genetics and biochemistry would've been big hits around the
campfires.

> --
>         John Cartmell   j...@finnybank.com     0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
>         Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
>         Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
Westprog - 21 Nov 2007 08:24 GMT
...
>> You could describe Genesis as a statement of scientific knowledge of
>> 3,000 years ago - except that you would be wrong. The authors were
>> quite ignorant of science for their time and the description was
>> badly out of date 5,000 years before it was written.

>    It was out of date in 6000BC? Where, Atlantis?

>    Genesis is the Creation Myth of the people who became the Jews. It
> was intended for its audience and does a fine job as such. Somehow I
> doubt genetics and biochemistry would've been big hits around the
> campfires.

It's only an issue for the irredemably literal-minded - creationists and
Richard Dawkins.

Signature

J/

SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Nov 2007 11:11 GMT
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> It's only an issue for the irredemably literal-minded - creationists and
> Richard Dawkins.

  I find it amusing that both literalists and detractors both try to
argue their points of view by using the Bible literally. They're
coming from different directions, but they are both trying to hold it
to a standard it was never intended to meet.
Féachadóir - 21 Nov 2007 11:24 GMT
Scríobh "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com>:
>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>coming from different directions, but they are both trying to hold it
>to a standard it was never intended to meet.

Its always fun to watch how people misrepresent Dawkins.

Signature

'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

Westprog - 21 Nov 2007 11:30 GMT
> Scríobh "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com>:
...
> Its always fun to watch how people misrepresent Dawkins.

I thought we were going to have the next Dawkins thread next year - did I
start early?

Signature

J/

SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

Féachadóir - 21 Nov 2007 18:29 GMT
Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
>> Scríobh "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com>:
>...
>> Its always fun to watch how people misrepresent Dawkins.
>
>I thought we were going to have the next Dawkins thread next year - did I
>start early?

Its coming up to Christmas, so I thought I'd merge it with the
you-stole-it-all-from-Mithras-anyway thread as a special treat.

Signature

'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

Robert Peffers - 21 Nov 2007 17:13 GMT
>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> coming from different directions, but they are both trying to hold it
> to a standard it was never intended to meet.

So just what standard would that be given that it contradicts itself on
almost everything, never mind under the Sun, including the Sun.
Signature

Auld Bob Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).

deemsbill@aol.com - 22 Nov 2007 02:20 GMT
On Nov 21, 12:13 pm, "Robert Peffers" <peffer...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> So just what standard would that be given that it contradicts itself on
> almost everything, never mind under the Sun, including the Sun.

   Only if you take it literally.

> --
> Auld Bob Peffers,
> Kelty,
> Fife,
> Scotland, (UK).
John Cartmell - 21 Nov 2007 15:06 GMT
In article
<78f42980-afcb-4a3e-885c-6f9150caf6e3@b32g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> > You could describe Genesis as a statement of scientific knowledge of
> > 3,000 years ago - except that you would be wrong. The authors were quite
> > ignorant of science for their time and the description was badly out of
> > date 5,000 years before it was written.

>    It was out of date in 6000BC? Where, Atlantis?

>    Genesis is the Creation Myth of the people who became the Jews. It was
> intended for its audience and does a fine job as such. Somehow I doubt
> genetics and biochemistry would've been big hits around the campfires.

Those responsible for the biotechnology that produced domesticated animals and
wheat would have argued otherwise.

Signature

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    Qercus magazine    FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
    Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

The Highlander - 21 Nov 2007 16:53 GMT
>> In article <amg6k3d6fkq8vfq563hgent4tkb8khd...@4ax.com>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>doubt genetics and biochemistry would've been big hits around the
>campfires.

Not necessarily. I've always been struck by the fact that north
American natives seem to have been the only people other than the Jews
to come up with the concept of one God, Manitou, suggests an
intellectual leap that most of early human society seems to have
failed to make.

After all, the whole concept of gods centred around the idea that they
lived in fixed places, like mountains, rocks, trees, etc. One had to
travel to their home to beg favours from them.

From the point of view of people such as slaves captured by Rome, once
they were removed from their homes, they also lost all contact with
their preferred god and any help or comfort he/she/it might have
offered.
This is why the idea of one god who was everywhere had such a profound
effect on religion, as he or she would travel with his adherents,
rather than being for ever lost to them in some remote grove in
Thessaly or wherever.

One God, the essential pillarstone of all the major religions apart
from the Hindu (many gods) and Buddhist (no god) religions, must have
transformed the morale of the ancient world; and the promise of a
paradise where all care and pains were healed must have elecrified the
downtrodden, especially with the advent of the Jesus concept who gave
them the one human comfort that everyone needs; the idea that somebody
cares about what happens to us.

Small wonder that the teaching of Christianity to slaves was banned in
societies like Rome and the US south, because the ultimate focus of
slavery is that the slave abandons all hope of rescue and accepts his
lot.without complaint.

I think it is parochial to dismiss early man as a primitive, grunting
semi-ape. As more and more evidence is uncovered, it becomes clear
that many so-called primitive societies had rich intellectual and
material lives as seen in the Spanish Altamira cave. Indeed, much of
modern millitary survival techniques derive directly from those
cultures which many dismiss as primitive.

Anyone who has watched someone chip razor-sharp flakes from flint is
either overcome by a sense of wonder or is totally lacking in
imagination. Those techniques are still in use today, but is also a
tribute to the intelligence of man that new technology loses little
time in being adapted to local needs. What can match the utilitarian
beauty and efficiency of a Clovis point with which our ancestors
brought down mammoths? To this day, hunters are very careful not to
get too close to an African elephant, despite being armed with a
high-powered express rifle.

http://www.unr.edu/cla/anthro/clovis-point-casts.gif

It is also noteworthy that around 80% of all remedies were originally
herbal, demonstrating a native knowledge and understanding of the
local environment that few possess today. My own wife had a poisoned
finger treated by a native shaman in the Canadian bush with a few
boiled leaves taken from a nearby bush; a cure which drove her
physician back home into rhapsodies when he saw how perfectly the cure
had healed the problem and incidently, also saved her fingernail.

I think that to dismiss genetics and biochemistry as not being being
big hits around the campfire is intellectual arrogance; a common
reaction of city dwellers who have lost all contact with the wild
places. I can find water in a desert and I could poison you without
you being any the wiser by offering you some of the deadly but
attractive-looking berries which abound in certain areas, yet which
act as a perfect, non-harmful bait for fish.

There is a school of thought which contends that mankind took the
wrong step in developing agriculture. The promise of ready food led to
the concentration of populations for safety and the beginning of the
degradation of the environment as the birthrate exploded. Its
consequences can be seen close to home, as witness the Irish and
Highland potato blight and the Highland clan wars over limited
resources.    

It has long been my contention that in the event of a city being
completely destroyed. most of the survivors would be dead within a
week, despite being surrounded by everything need to survive with a
degree of comfort; knowledge  paintstakingly researched by those we
call "primitive". We are the primitives; we have long forgotten the
lessons learned by our ancestors and dismiss them as irrelevent.


>> --
>>         John Cartmell   j...@finnybank.com     0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
>>         Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
>>         Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
VtSkier - 21 Nov 2007 17:53 GMT
(snip)

Highlander: all in all I like what you wrote...

> Not necessarily. I've always been struck by the fact that north
> American natives seem to have been the only people other than the Jews
> to come up with the concept of one God, Manitou, suggests an
> intellectual leap that most of early human society seems to have
> failed to make.

I think if you scratch hard enough, you'll find that Manitou
is a 19th century Romantic invention. Consider this...

Missionary (Mis): Mr. Indian (MI), what do you believe?

MI: I believe that all that you see is imbued with a
spark of the devine (animus). Everything that is here
has spiritual component. (This is defined as "Animism".
The animist includes rocks and trees as having this
"animus".)

Miss: So you see God in all of creation?

MI: No, I see that all before us IS god.

Miss: So you see the fact that there is only
one God and that you see him everywhere in nature?

MI: If you like the word "god", then I have
to say that each and everything that there is, has
a part that is a god.

Miss: OK, then how do you see the coming to be of
all that is?

MI: From my point of view, all that is, always was.
The great Manitou (everything) is now and always was
and always will be.

Miss: So you believe in "Manitou" who created all
that is?

I could go on, but you can see the leading questions
of the "Missionary" being *almost* answered by
Mr. Indian in a way that confirms to the Missionary
that the Indian really believes in one god.

> After all, the whole concept of gods centred around the idea that they
> lived in fixed places, like mountains, rocks, trees, etc. One had to
> travel to their home to beg favours from them.

The animist doesn't have to travel anywhere. He is only concerned
with the gods of the particular location where he is. Other
gods don't concern him as they have no effect on him. If he
should move to another area, then he will honor the gods of
that area.

True, certain gods have great power over a large area. Pele
comes to mind. Certainly if Pele got really pissed, he
could devastate a large amount of real estate, so certainly
an occasional trip to placate him might be in order. But
note that from where you are, Pele is still visible, though
some distance away even when you are at "home".

> From the point of view of people such as slaves captured by Rome, once
> they were removed from their homes, they also lost all contact with
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> them the one human comfort that everyone needs; the idea that somebody
> cares about what happens to us.

Well, OK, maybe but...
Consider that the "downtrodden" (serfs) of Christian
Europe stayed downtrodden for many hundreds of years,
if "hope" of a better future on Earth is where you are going.
Otherwise I agree that "somebody caring" may be an incentive
for remaining "downtrodden"

> Small wonder that the teaching of Christianity to slaves was banned in
> societies like Rome and the US south, because the ultimate focus of
> slavery is that the slave abandons all hope of rescue and accepts his
> lot.without complaint.

OTOH, "someone caring" and a better place after life, just might
give a slave a reason to "accept his lot without complaint".

> I think it is parochial to dismiss early man as a primitive, grunting
> semi-ape. As more and more evidence is uncovered, it becomes clear
> that many so-called primitive societies had rich intellectual and
> material lives as seen in the Spanish Altamira cave. Indeed, much of
> modern millitary survival techniques derive directly from those
> cultures which many dismiss as primitive.

I think you are extremely correct with this statement.

> Anyone who has watched someone chip razor-sharp flakes from flint is
> either overcome by a sense of wonder or is totally lacking in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> get too close to an African elephant, despite being armed with a
> high-powered express rifle.

And witness that the VERY BEST and sharpest surgical instruments
short of laser technology are knapped from obsidian.

> http://www.unr.edu/cla/anthro/clovis-point-casts.gif
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> physician back home into rhapsodies when he saw how perfectly the cure
> had healed the problem and incidently, also saved her fingernail.

Yes.

> I think that to dismiss genetics and biochemistry as not being being
> big hits around the campfire is intellectual arrogance; a common
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> attractive-looking berries which abound in certain areas, yet which
> act as a perfect, non-harmful bait for fish.

Yes.

> There is a school of thought which contends that mankind took the
> wrong step in developing agriculture. The promise of ready food led to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Highland potato blight and the Highland clan wars over limited
> resources.    

Yes. See "Against the Grain" by Richard Manning and "Guns, Germs
and Steel" by Jared Diamond. It's not that growing things is
necessarily bad, it's that in our greed, we've allowed others
to manage what we produce. This abdication of management is
based on the promise from those "others" that by giving up this
management, we will get more on a more regular basis than if
we kept management ourselves. This is, of course, a lie and is
the contract all "civilized" societies have had for about
5,000 years.

> It has long been my contention that in the event of a city being
> completely destroyed. most of the survivors would be dead within a
> week, despite being surrounded by everything need to survive with a
> degree of comfort; knowledge  paintstakingly researched by those we
> call "primitive". We are the primitives; we have long forgotten the
> lessons learned by our ancestors and dismiss them as irrelevent.

Yes.
>  
>
>>> --
>>>         John Cartmell   j...@finnybank.com     0845 006 8822 or 0161 969 9820
>>>         Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
>>>         Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
Cory Bhreckan - 21 Nov 2007 18:25 GMT
> (snip)

<shnip>

> And witness that the VERY BEST and sharpest surgical instruments
> short of laser technology are knapped from obsidian.

That's because you don't get sharper than one molecule thick. BTW, chert
and flint work also.

<shnap>

Signature

"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

VtSkier - 21 Nov 2007 18:54 GMT
>> (snip)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That's because you don't get sharper than one molecule thick. BTW, chert
> and flint work also.

But are not as consistently fine grained (or really
grainless) than obsidian (volcanic glass).

Actually old Coke bottles might work pretty well too.

BTW thank for schnipping when you are only addressing
one part of the post.

> <shnap>
Cory Bhreckan - 21 Nov 2007 20:36 GMT
>>> (snip)
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> But are not as consistently fine grained (or really
> grainless) than obsidian (volcanic glass).

Flakes from cryptocrystalline rocks like chert and flint are still far
more sharp than any steel edge. You need an electron microscope to tell
the difference in edge width between them and obsidian, tachylyte or
other glasses. A surgical patient is unlikely to feel the difference.

> Actually old Coke bottles might work pretty well too.
>
> BTW thank for schnipping when you are only addressing
> one part of the post.

I only leave long posts in tact if I want to p*ss someone off, then I
just add "I agree" at the bottom.

>> <shnap>

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"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

The Highlander - 22 Nov 2007 03:43 GMT
>> (snip)
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
><shnap>

There is an American who is considered the world's finest knapper
(whose name I cannot recall) who marks each point he produces so it
won't be mistaken for a genuinely ancient artifact.

He had to have an operation and persuaded the surgeon(s) involved to
use his stone knives instead of scalpels. The surgeon(s) reported that
the stone knives slid through skin and flesh like butter, with no sign
of trauma to the surrounding flesh and that the wound had healed
almost without trace and (I think I'm correct in saying this) with
much faster healing than if scalpels had been used. The only complaint
was that because the knife edges were only one molecule thick, there
was a tendency for the edges to flake if pressed too hard. Presumably
a suction tube took care of this minor problem.

Anyone who has watched a flint knapped will testify to how easy it
seemed. I watched a knapper at work in Yorkshire and was impressed at
how swiftly he flaked off usable edges and "trimmed" them with an
antler to leave notches so they could be tied to wooden handles,
spears and arrows. This was a worthwhile course as the one thing that
is really critical to surviving in the wilds is sharp blades which
will be constantly needed for almost every task. Few people involved
in a plane crash will have remembered to pack their Henckel!
William Black - 22 Nov 2007 13:03 GMT
> There is an American who is considered the world's finest knapper
> (whose name I cannot recall) who marks each point he produces so it
> won't be mistaken for a genuinely ancient artifact.

Why bother? (Not to mention 'how do you mark a flint arrowhead?')

One of the Italian universities,  I think it's Trieste,  has an experimental
archeology unit that has been knocking exact replicas of flint stuff out for
decades now.

I've got half a dozen of their arrowheads that were made for effectiveness
testing against medieval and modern designs.

They're indistinguishable from the stuff in museums.

The real thing sells for about the same as a repro,  so why bother?

An archeologist knows what he's dug up and experts can tell by the way it's
made what individual made what,  something to do with the shear angles of
the secondary blows.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

The Highlander - 22 Nov 2007 17:50 GMT
>> There is an American who is considered the world's finest knapper
>> (whose name I cannot recall) who marks each point he produces so it
>> won't be mistaken for a genuinely ancient artifact.
>
>Why bother? (Not to mention 'how do you mark a flint arrowhead?')

You borrow one of William Black's crayons.

>One of the Italian universities,  I think it's Trieste,  has an experimental
>archeology unit that has been knocking exact replicas of flint stuff out for
>decades now.
>
>I've got half a dozen of their arrowheads that were made for effectiveness
>testing against medieval and modern designs.

I'm sure you have. As they say in Dorkshire, "What our Willie dooz
todeh, Loondon dooz tamorra!

>They're indistinguishable from the stuff in museums.

Cite, please!

>The real thing sells for about the same as a repro,  so why bother?

That's amazing. I've wanted a genuine Clovis point for years but I
haven't found a museum that will part with one. Of course you can use
your connections to persuade them to shower you with them.

This may be of interest.

Fourteen Clovis points -- the stone spear tips used by Paleo-Indians
-- are known to have been found on Long Island, proof that Indians
lived here more than 10,000 years ago. Experts say dozens of other
points have probably been found and are sitting in garages, barns,
cigar boxes, or private collections. All 14 points were found in
Suffolk, Nassau and Queens Counties, alongside creeks or, in the case
of three found near Mt. Sinai, along the Long Island Sound waterfront.
One was reported stolen from a private collection sometime in the
1960s.

Most of the 14 are in private collections and not available to the
public. You can see the others at these locations:

Two intricately carved points are on display in the Southold Indian
Museum. Garvies Point Museum and Preserve in Glen Cove has two points;
the Sachem Public Library has two, and the Smithsonian Institution's
Museum of the American Indian in Manhattan has four.

After reading similar accounts from various states, I have the
impression that Clovis points are fairly rare, especially as the
Smithsonian Institution's Museum of the American Indian in Manhattan
has only four. ( I assume you may have heard of the Smithsonian; one
the United States most prestigious museums.)



>An archeologist knows what he's dug up and experts can tell by the way it's
>made what individual made what,  something to do with the shear angles of
>the secondary blows.

Well, that's all very scientific. I must say I'm completely
unimpressed.
William Black - 22 Nov 2007 18:48 GMT
>>The real thing sells for about the same as a repro,  so why bother?
>
> That's amazing. I've wanted a genuine Clovis point for years but I
> haven't found a museum that will part with one. Of course you can use
> your connections to persuade them to shower you with them.

Why should I.

You're an educated man, use your expensive education.

> This may be of interest.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Well, that's all very scientific. I must say I'm completely
> unimpressed.

That's your privilage.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Cory Bhreckan - 23 Nov 2007 23:52 GMT
>>> (snip)
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (whose name I cannot recall) who marks each point he produces so it
> won't be mistaken for a genuinely ancient artifact.

I know who you are talking about, he teaches at Harvard. He was featured
in a book on Mousterian (Neandertal) history and culture I read a while
back. I can't remember his name.

> He had to have an operation and persuaded the surgeon(s) involved to
> use his stone knives instead of scalpels.

It wasn't him, his department head was having a precancerous growth
removed. The department head asked him to make a couple of stone
scalpels for the surgery. Presumably because the stone would leave less
of a scar on his face. The trick was attaching the flake to a handle
sturdy enough for the surgeon to use.

> The surgeon(s) reported that
> the stone knives slid through skin and flesh like butter, with no sign
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> will be constantly needed for almost every task. Few people involved
> in a plane crash will have remembered to pack their Henckel!

Signature

"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

The Fifeshire Bimbo - 24 Nov 2007 17:25 GMT
"Cory Bhreckan" <coryvreckan@NO_SPAM.verizon.net> wrote  
<snip>
>>>> And witness that the VERY BEST and sharpest surgical
>>>> instruments short of laser technology are knapped from obsidian.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> There is an American who is considered the world's finest knapper

Marc Salak?
http://www.dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7300
The Highlander - 22 Nov 2007 03:01 GMT
>(snip)
>
>Highlander: all in all I like what you wrote...

Thank you.

>> Not necessarily. I've always been struck by the fact that north
>> American natives seem to have been the only people other than the Jews
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I think if you scratch hard enough, you'll find that Manitou
>is a 19th century Romantic invention. Consider this...

Disagree. The evidence clearl;y shows that natives accepted Manitou as
the "Great Spirit" and creator of all.

From Wikipedia; the only reasonable source I found on-line:

Gitche Manitou (or Gitchi Manitou, Gitchie Manitou, Gitchee Manitou,
Kitche Manitou; Gichi-manidoo in the modern spelling), in traditional
Algonquian First Nations culture, is the Great Spirit, the Creator of
all things and the Giver of Life. "Manitou" is an Anishinaabe word for
"spirit", and "Gitche Manitou" means "Great Spirit". Its actual
meaning comes closer to "Great Connection". French explorers reported
the name as "Grand Manitou".

>Missionary (Mis): Mr. Indian (MI), what do you believe?
>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>OTOH, "someone caring" and a better place after life, just might
>give a slave a reason to "accept his lot without complaint".

Well, given that the regular punishment for runaway slaves was having
the toes or the toe-end of the foot chopped off; there was ample
incentive to "toe the line", if you'll forgive the expression. I might
add that it is very difficult to walk with only the big toe missing as
it seems to be the controlling digit dealing with balance for the foot
it is attached to..  

>> I think it is parochial to dismiss early man as a primitive, grunting
>> semi-ape. As more and more evidence is uncovered, it becomes clear
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>>>>         Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
>>>>         Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

What a pleasure to have a discussion instead of a quarrel...
John Cartmell - 22 Nov 2007 10:38 GMT
> I think it is parochial to dismiss early man as a primitive, grunting
> semi-ape. As more and more evidence is uncovered, it becomes clear
> that many so-called primitive societies had rich intellectual and
> material lives as seen in the Spanish Altamira cave. Indeed, much of
> modern millitary survival techniques derive directly from those
> cultures which many dismiss as primitive.

It's pretty clear that, from the start, our members of our species were just
as bright and capable as we are now (or more? ;-) with direct evidence going
back over 60,000 years. Our earlier cousins (H. erectus) had larger brains and
used tools - and you may go back over a million years accepting their
capabilities. "Primitive" generally meant "I don't understand them".

Signature

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    Qercus magazine    FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527        www.qercus.com
    Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

The Highlander - 21 Nov 2007 15:00 GMT
>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of Genesis,
>> there seems to be much which accords with the archeological view of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>science for their time and the description was badly out of date 5,000 years
>before it was written.

I see.
cormac - 21 Nov 2007 08:21 GMT
> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of Genesis,
> there seems to be much which accords with the archeological view of
> creation. The forming of the universe, our planet, etc., right down to
> a nominal ancestress, nicknamed "Eve" by scientists trying to
> establish the origins of Man. Her presumed dates keep varying as fresh
> evidence is uncovered.

Eve is usually called Lucy by paleontologists nowadays. Her remains
are ca 3 million years old. There are also hominid remains 5- 6
million years old.

Recently the jawbone of a "missing link" was found. It seems to be a
common ancestor of hominids, apes and chimpanzees.

Cormac.
VtSkier - 21 Nov 2007 15:57 GMT
>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of Genesis,
>> there seems to be much which accords with the archeological view of
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Cormac.

Not quite.

"Lucy" is a hominid ancestor of, as you point out,
maybe 3 million years ago.

"Eve" is the truly fully human female ancestor of the group
which left Africa between 90,000 and 140,000 years ago.

Note carefully that I'm not saying that she left Africa,
I'm saying that she is ancestral to those who did as
fully human ancestors of all of us.

see:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
John Briggs - 21 Nov 2007 16:25 GMT
>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
>>> Genesis, there seems to be much which accords with the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> see:
> http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

I wouldn't take the Bradshaw Foundation as being authoritative on anything.
They are biased by the line they take on the Bradshaw Paintings - which are
highly controversial anyway. They seem to have something of a right-wing
bias - but that may just be down to them being extremely rich people.
Signature

John Briggs

VtSkier - 21 Nov 2007 17:09 GMT
>>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
>>>> Genesis, there seems to be much which accords with the
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> highly controversial anyway. They seem to have something of a right-wing
> bias - but that may just be down to them being extremely rich people.

Whether Bradshaw/Oppenheimer is authoritative or
not, I was only trying to show the difference
between "Lucy" and "Eve". The time periods are
at least approximately correct and show the vast
time period between Lucy and Eve.

Remember "Eve" came out of the Garden (Africa)
and that's part of the point of the name.
cormac - 21 Nov 2007 18:28 GMT
> >>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
> >>>> Genesis, there seems to be much which accords with the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Remember "Eve" came out of the Garden (Africa)
> and that's part of the point of the name.-

We have physical evidence of Lucy. Eve like many named in the Bible is
mythological.

As Jesus was raised bodily into heaven, our only relic of him is his
foreskin removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from an Italian
monastery ca 1970 C E,

Watch out for it on eBay.

Cormac.
Féachadóir - 21 Nov 2007 18:48 GMT
Scríobh cormac <cormac.bradaigh@hotmail.com>:
>> >>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
>> >>>> Genesis, there seems to be much which accords with the
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>We have physical evidence of Lucy. Eve like many named in the Bible is
>mythological.

Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
mitochondrial Eve, in the cells of every human being on the planet.

>As Jesus was raised bodily into heaven, our only relic of him is his
>foreskin removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from an Italian
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Cormac.

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John Briggs - 21 Nov 2007 19:36 GMT
> Scríobh cormac <cormac.bradaigh@hotmail.com>:
>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
> mitochondrial Eve, in the cells of every human being on the planet.

But she only acquired this status in retrospect, when all other maternal
lines died out (or "sonned" out - if you see what I mean).
Signature

John Briggs

Westprog - 22 Nov 2007 10:52 GMT
...
>> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
>> mitochondrial Eve, in the cells of every human being on the planet.

> But she only acquired this status in retrospect, when all other
> maternal lines died out (or "sonned" out - if you see what I mean).

Her importance lies mainly in the mitochondrial DNA, and in the fact that at
that time, the total human population must have been very small. (Or at
least the population descendants of whom survived). Otherwise she's no more
significant than the millions of other ancestors. The same applies to the
ancestral Adam. (It's also extremely probable that both of them are
ancestors multiple times over).

Signature

J/

SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

John Briggs - 22 Nov 2007 10:59 GMT
> ...
>>> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that at that time, the total human population must have been very
> small.

Not at all.

> (Or at least the population descendants of whom survived).

No - it just means that all the other female lines of decent are broken (a
daughter-son-daughter sequence).

> Otherwise she's no more significant than the millions of other
> ancestors. The same applies to the ancestral Adam. (It's also
> extremely probable that both of them are ancestors multiple times
> over).

But there can also be many, many, other ancestors.
Signature

John Briggs

Westprog - 22 Nov 2007 11:26 GMT
...
>>>> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
>>>> mitochondrial Eve, in the cells of every human being on the planet.

>>> But she only acquired this status in retrospect, when all other
>>> maternal lines died out (or "sonned" out - if you see what I mean).

>> Her importance lies mainly in the mitochondrial DNA, and in the fact
>> that at that time, the total human population must have been very
>> small.

> Not at all.

>> (Or at least the population descendants of whom survived).

> No - it just means that all the other female lines of decent are
> broken (a daughter-son-daughter sequence).

AFAIAA, if humanity as a whole has a single
mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a comparitively
small population from that point. It doesn't make "Eve" the unique mother of
mankind.

>> Otherwise she's no more significant than the millions of other
>> ancestors. The same applies to the ancestral Adam. (It's also
>> extremely probable that both of them are ancestors multiple times
>> over).

> But there can also be many, many, other ancestors.

Of course. It's just that everybody apart from the all female and all male
descent gets halved every time. The women pass on mitochondrial DNA to their
daughters, and the males pass on the Y chromosome.

Signature

J/

SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

Féachadóir - 22 Nov 2007 11:57 GMT
Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
>...
>>>>> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a comparitively
>small population from that point.

Not necessarily. It simply means there's a common maternal ancestor at
some point.

Think of surnames. It's theoretically possible that eventually,
everyone in the world will share a single surname, perhaps Smith or
Kim. But no matter what your surname, you still had ancestors with
different surnames - just not in the direct male line.

>It doesn't make "Eve" the unique mother of
>mankind.

She's simply the granny we all share. But grannies double in number
with each generation.

>>> Otherwise she's no more significant than the millions of other
>>> ancestors. The same applies to the ancestral Adam. (It's also
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>descent gets halved every time. The women pass on mitochondrial DNA to their
>daughters, and the males pass on the Y chromosome.

Women pass on mtDNA to *all* their offspring.

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Westprog - 22 Nov 2007 12:07 GMT
...
>>>> Her importance lies mainly in the mitochondrial DNA, and in the
>>>> fact that at that time, the total human population must have been
>>>> very small.

>>> Not at all.

>>>> (Or at least the population descendants of whom survived).

>>> No - it just means that all the other female lines of decent are
>>> broken (a daughter-son-daughter sequence).

>> AFAIAA, if humanity as a whole has a single
>> mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a
>> comparitively small population from that point.

> Not necessarily. It simply means there's a common maternal ancestor at
> some point.

> Think of surnames. It's theoretically possible that eventually,
> everyone in the world will share a single surname, perhaps Smith or
> Kim. But no matter what your surname, you still had ancestors with
> different surnames - just not in the direct male line.

If you came across an isolated town where everybody was named Jones, and
they all descended from a Mr Jones who settled in the area many, many years
ago, what would you deduce about the size of the population when he arrived?
It's certainly possible that there were millions of people there, but if
_everyone_ is descended from Mr Jones, the likelihood is that there was a
fairly small population at that time. In fact, with women it's even more
likely - it's far easier for a single powerful man to have many descendants
than a single woman.

I assume that the maths has been done for this. I might even look it up.

...
>> Of course. It's just that everybody apart from the all female and
>> all male descent gets halved every time. The women pass on
>> mitochondrial DNA to their daughters, and the males pass on the Y
>> chromosome.

> Women pass on mtDNA to *all* their offspring.

But if those offspring are sons, then it doesn't go any further.

Signature

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SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

Féachadóir - 22 Nov 2007 19:42 GMT
Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
>...
>>>>> Her importance lies mainly in the mitochondrial DNA, and in the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>_everyone_ is descended from Mr Jones, the likelihood is that there was a
>fairly small population at that time.

Now look at the number of people called O'Neill in Ulster. What do you
deduce about the size of the population of Ulster 1200 years ago.

Take a long enough timespan, and eventually everyone will end up with
the same surname. The size of the original population is largely
irrelevant.

>In fact, with women it's even more
>likely - it's far easier for a single powerful man to have many descendants
>than a single woman.

Perhaps in the first generation. But what she passes on is just as
likely to ensure their survival over the long term.

>I assume that the maths has been done for this. I might even look it up.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>But if those offspring are sons, then it doesn't go any further.

Yes, but you still got it from Momma.

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Westprog - 23 Nov 2007 08:13 GMT
> Now look at the number of people called O'Neill in Ulster. What do you
> deduce about the size of the population of Ulster 1200 years ago.

> Take a long enough timespan, and eventually everyone will end up with
> the same surname. The size of the original population is largely
> irrelevant.

I would have thought that it depends on both the size of the initial
population and the interval since. I note that everyone in Ulster doesn't
have the same surname. It might well be that the interval since Eve is
sufficiently long that a single matrilineal line is inevitable, but I'd like
to see the analysis.

...
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SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

The Highlander - 22 Nov 2007 23:05 GMT
>Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
>>...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>Kim. But no matter what your surname, you still had ancestors with
>different surnames - just not in the direct male line.

That's a very English error.

The reality is that almost up until our own lifetimes, just 600 miles
north of you, people took the name of their father for that generation
alone. I am talking about the Scottish Gaelic-speaking region of
Scotland, where some of us come from and many of the lowland Scots'
ancestors came from.us .

If your father's first name was Ruaridh and your name was Domhnall
(traditionally and thus typically named after your father's father),
your name would have been Domhnall MacRuaridh Mhic Dhomhnaill - Donald
son of Rory, grandson of Donald.

Your son would be Ruaridh MacDhomhnaill Mhic Ruaridh - Rory, son of
Donald, grandson of Rory. A nickname might be added to distinguish
your son from the previous Rory who was more than likely still alive,
like a placename or a specific deed for which the older Rory was
well-known or even his haircolour.

This system is still in common use today in Gaelic-speaking Scotland
and Gaelic Ireland  and is called Sloinneadh. Because of government
insistence on permanent surnames, many people took the of their chief
or an ancestor as a permanent surname IN ENGLISH, but among
themselves, the Sloinneadh usually prevails.

Go 500 miles further north and you will find something very similar
in Iceland. where male children take their father's name and add
sson,while his daughter will add sdóttir, so if Jon's son is named
Gunnar, he will be known as Gunnar Jonsson and Jon's daughter Elísabet
will be Elísabet Jonsdóttir.        

And all this within a 500/a thousand miles of where you live! We are
your neighbours. and yet you know little or nothing about us and our
cultures. Do you wonder that we get angry when we realize that you
make no effort to learn anything about us, other than to be rude and
offensive about us, as William Black so often is?

The Celtic footprint is heavy in Iceland too. For 400 years the
western Highlands and Islands and Ireland were part of the Viking
Empire and our names and place names reflect that, especially in the
Hebrides, where personal names and family names are clearly from both
cultures.

Because many Vikings came and went, they often took local women with
them from among the Celtic Scots.  The original population of Iceland
was therefore of Nordic and Celtic origin. This is evident by literary
evidence from the settlement period as well as from later scientific
studies such as blood type and genetic analysis. One such genetics
study has indicated that the majority of the male settlers were of
Nordic origin while the majority of the women were of Celtic origin.

That can be seen on the mainland too, in particular in Sutherland, the
northernmost part of the western Highlands, and the southernmost
mainland part of the Viking occupation. The Norwegians are allegedly
the fourth tallest people in the world, and the people of Sutherland
are the fifth tallest. Sadly, that made Highland soldiers easy targets
during the British wars with other nations, compared to the dwarf-like
English, and our losses were therefore always greater. In WWI, three
out of every five Scottish solders were killed, leaving a generation
of women behind who never married because there was no one left behind
to marry. (Source, The National War Museum of Scotland).  

Of course that was to our advantage too, when, for example, Ewan
Cameron attacked 300 Redcoats with 35 men and killed 124 of them,
losing only five men; or the Barttle of Prestonpans, where the English
Army, terrified at the sight of Highlanders running to attack them,
threw away their weapons and fled before our men could close with
them; and didn't stop until they were safely across the Scottish
border, back in England. I think the Highland contempt for the English
dates from those two episodes. To lose that much face under the gaze
of a warrior nation was an irredeemable amd shameful moment in British
history. I like to think that William Black's ancestor was way ahead
of the fleeing Redcoats, setting a new Olympic record by any standard!

The Highlanders eventually gave up the chase and went around
complaining that they didn't even get a chance to wet their claymores
with English blood... Very frustrating; like setting an ambush for an
enemy who never shows up.  

>That doesn't make "Eve" the unique mother of
>>mankind.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Women pass on mtDNA to *all* their offspring.
Renia - 22 Nov 2007 23:15 GMT
>>Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> Gunnar, he will be known as Gunnar Jonsson and Jon's daughter Elísabet
> will be Elísabet Jonsdóttir.

There was a similar system in Wales until comparitively recently (17th
century) but Welsh posters may know more about that than me.

But there was also a similar system in England, too, in medieval times,
inasmuch as some surnames are patrinymics:

Simmonds; Simpson
Jones; Johnson
Richards; Richardson; Dickson
Peters; Peterson

etc, etc
a.spencer3 - 23 Nov 2007 13:41 GMT
> >>Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> Richards; Richardson; Dickson
> Peters; Peterson

Yep. In Wales 'ap' is 'of', or similar to 'mac' etc.
Thus a name of a child of a 'Harry' could have been 'ap Harry'.
Which today is Anglicised to the common Welsh surname Parry.
Many similar examples.

Surreyman
Renia - 22 Nov 2007 12:34 GMT
> AFAIAA, if humanity as a whole has a single
> mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a comparitively
> small population from that point. It doesn't make "Eve" the unique mother of
> mankind.

I believe there are seven "Eves" from whom mankind descends today.
John Briggs - 22 Nov 2007 18:15 GMT
> ...
>>>>> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> comparitively small population from that point. It doesn't make "Eve"
> the unique mother of mankind.

No - it says nothing at all about the population.

>>> Otherwise she's no more significant than the millions of other
>>> ancestors. The same applies to the ancestral Adam. (It's also
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> male descent gets halved every time. The women pass on mitochondrial
> DNA to their daughters, and the males pass on the Y chromosome.

Which is how the other ancestral lines "die out" of the mitochondrial DNA
and Y-chromosome evidence.
Signature

John Briggs

Westprog - 22 Nov 2007 18:19 GMT
> > ...
> >>>>> Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> No - it says nothing at all about the population.

I find that counter-intuitive.

> >>> Otherwise she's no more significant than the millions of other
> >>> ancestors. The same applies to the ancestral Adam. (It's also
> >>> extremely probable that both of them are ancestors multiple times
> >>> over).

> >> But there can also be many, many, other ancestors.

> > Of course. It's just that everybody apart from the all female and all
> > male descent gets halved every time. The women pass on mitochondrial
> > DNA to their daughters, and the males pass on the Y chromosome.

> Which is how the other ancestral lines "die out" of the mitochondrial DNA
> and Y-chromosome evidence.

Surely the other lines would die out a lot quicker if there were a lot fewer
of them? If there were, say, a million mothers producing offspring, I would
expect the female lines to reduce to one a lot more slowly than if there
were a hundred.

Signature

J/

SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

John Cartmell - 22 Nov 2007 18:50 GMT
> AFAIAA, if humanity as a whole has a single
> mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a comparitively
> small population from that point. It doesn't make "Eve" the unique mother of
> mankind.

Eve is defined as the latest person identifiable as the ancestor of us all in
the maternal line. Your terminology doesn't make sense - but she is still
ancestor of us all (as was her mother of course! - and all their ancestral
lines). Other (but certainly not all) women (and men) of her time (and their
ancestral lines) were also ancestors of some or all of us.

Signature

    John

Westprog - 22 Nov 2007 22:55 GMT
>> AFAIAA, if humanity as a whole has a single
>> mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a
>> comparitively small population from that point. It doesn't make
>> "Eve" the unique mother of mankind.

> Eve is defined as the latest person identifiable as the ancestor of
> us all in the maternal line. Your terminology doesn't make sense -
> but she is still ancestor of us all (as was her mother of course! -
> and all their ancestral lines). Other (but certainly not all) women
> (and men) of her time (and their ancestral lines) were also ancestors
> of some or all of us.

It is actually possible that all the women (and men) of her time are
ancestors to some of us. I suppose it's unlikely but we don't know.

Signature

J/

SOTW: "Ellen West" - Throwing Muses

Féachadóir - 23 Nov 2007 00:15 GMT
Scríobh "Westprog" <westprog@hottmail.com>:
>>> AFAIAA, if humanity as a whole has a single
>>> mother-daughter-daughter...daughter descent, that implies a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>It is actually possible that all the women (and men) of her time are
>ancestors to some of us. I suppose it's unlikely but we don't know.

It's extremely unlikely.

Signature

'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

James Hogg - 21 Nov 2007 20:20 GMT
>Scríobh cormac <cormac.bradaigh@hotmail.com>:
>>> >>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>Biblical Eve is mythological, but we have physical evidence of
>mitochondrial Eve, in the cells of every human being on the planet.

And even more significantly,
EVE is EVE spelled backwards
(except in Polish).

James
John Briggs - 21 Nov 2007 20:32 GMT
>> Scríobh cormac <cormac.bradaigh@hotmail.com>:
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you step away from the literal language of
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> EVE is EVE spelled backwards
> (except in Polish).

The medieval wordplay (sorry to go on-topic...) was that AVE (as in Ave
Maria) was EVA [Eve] backwards.
Signature

John Briggs