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History Forum / General / British History / December 2007Toyota Avalon -- A Superb American Car From A Japanese Manufacturer
2007 Toyota Avalon Reviews Satisfying, soothing, superbly detailed. Introduction Toyota Avalon is undoubtedly the best American car ever built by a Japanese manufacturer. Granted, it is front-wheel drive, and its exterior dimensions seem smaller than its American counterparts, but the Avalon is full-sized inside and full-sized in its emphasis on quiet, ease, and convenience. The Avalon is smooth and comfortable underway, quiet and serene. The suspension is tuned for ride comfort, and it largely excels in this area. The double-overhead-cam V6 engine is smooth, quiet and powerful, while the electronically controlled five-speed automatic transmission ensures smoothness and economy. And Avalon comes with the latest in safety features. Inside is a comfortable cabin lavished with tasteful materials and ergonomically designed controls that make the Avalon easy to operate and pleasant to drive. The front seats are roomy and comfortable, and special attention was paid to back-seat comfort. This is a car that will never annoy you. Avalon's styling is understated, presenting a quiet look of grace and agility. Four trim variations are available, each representing slightly different priorities to broaden Avalon's appeal. Avalon was completely redesigned late in 2005. For '07, a tire pressure monitor is now standard on all models, and the navigation system is now available in the Touring trim level. Avalon benefits from Toyota's reputation for quality, durability and reliability. And, given that it was designed in Newport Beach, California; engineered by the Toyota Technical Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan; and is built in Georgetown, Kentucky; it could be argued that the Avalon is the best American car from an American manufacturer.... <http://www.automotive.com/2007/12/toyota/avalon/reviews/index.html> ----------------------------------------------- DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas King Arthur himself never had it so good. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas ------------------------------------------------------ 2007 Toyota Avalon Reviews Satisfying, soothing, superbly detailed. ...Lineup The 2007 Toyota Avalon is available in four trim levels: XL, Touring, XLS, and Limited. All are powered by a 3.5-liter V6, connected to a five-speed automatic transmission with a sequential-shift feature. Avalon XL ($26,875) comes with cloth upholstery; eight-way adjustable power driver's seat; dual-zone climate control with air filtration; a premium-level AM/FM/CD/cassette stereo with nine speakers; remote keyless entry; power door locks with anti-lockout feature; power windows with driver and passenger auto up/down, pinch protection and retained power; Optitron instruments with chrome accents; maintenance indicator light; steering-wheel-mounted audio and climate controls; and a multi-function information display for audio, climate control, temperature and trip computer. The XL also has cruise control, an engine immobilizer and a tilt and telescoping steering column. Tires are 215/60R16 on aluminum wheels, and the spare tire is full-sized, with a matching aluminum rim. A tire-pressure monitor is now standard as well. The Touring model ($29,125) features more aggressive suspension tuning and 17-inch alloy wheels with P215/55R17 Michelin MXV4 tires. Touring also upgrades to leather-trimmed seats with four-way power for the front passenger, a leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob, and aluminum scuff plates. Also distinguishing the Touring are high-intensity-discharge (HID) head lamps, fog lamps, and a rear decklid spoiler. The XLS ($31,325) reverts to standard headlights and suspension, keeps the fog lamps and 17-inch tire size, and adds a power moonroof, in-dash six-disc CD changer, dual heated outside mirrors (with electrochromic auto-dimming on the driver's side), an auto-dimming rearview mirror with compass and Homelink universal transceiver, and an anti-theft system. The Limited ($34,065) adds a 360-watt JBL Synthesis audio system with six-disc CD changer and 12 speakers, a one-touch auto-reverse power rear sunshade, power driver's seat cushion length adjuster, the Smart Key system, unique 17-inch alloy wheels, HID headlamps, a wood-and-leather-trimmed shift knob and steering wheel, rain-sensing windshield wipers, and a driver and passenger seat heater and cooling fan. Stand-alone options include the power moonroof ($910), in-dash six-CD changer ($200), and anti-theft system ($220). Touring and above offer heated seats packaged with VSC stability control ($1,090), the JBL Synthesis sound system ($840), navigation system ($1,900), and a JBL/navigation package ($4,005). Dynamic laser cruise control ($600) is optional on Limited only. Safety features that come standard on all models include driver and front-passenger airbags, seat-mounted side-impact airbags for torso protection, side curtain airbags for head protection, and a driver's knee airbag. Active safety features include anti-lock brakes (ABS) with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD). Optional on all Avalons is Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) with Traction Control and Brake Assist ($650).... <http://www.automotive.com/2007/12/toyota/avalon/reviews/index.html> > 2007 Toyota Avalon Reviews > > Satisfying, soothing, superbly detailed. As shooting as floating on air. I.e., Granpa HInes version of walking on water. > Avalon's styling is understated, presenting a quiet look of grace and > agility. Agility? Who is the reviewer a Sumo wrestler? This is what a few Avalon owners who are Real Drivers have to say: --------------------- I have a 2006 Avalon, traded in the 2000 Solara for it. I drove it for the first time on the Higway on a 10 hour trip from FL to GA. I am severely disappointed in the amount of control this vehicle has on the higway . I am trying to find out if it's only my car, or if anyone else has the same problems. What it's doing: 1)While driving behind a semi the car gets strongly rocked from left to right, you have a LOT of work to do to maintain your lane. A LOT more than any other car or even junkyard worthy vehicles I've ever owned. A LOT....... 2) when you decide to pass that semi, you get pushed off the road as you aproach the front of the truck- MUCH MUCH more severe than any other car I've driven in the last 40+ years. 3) When driving on uneven pavement like for instance only one half of the lane is new, the other half is old and rough, normally no big deal- but in the avalon it immediately makes the car ride like you have solid shocks- and the car starts bouncing like a lowrider hitting speedbumps. The solara never did any of these things. 4)The front tires are feathering on the outside, and it's handling like a toed out car would. It wants to go everywhere but straight ahead, and I believe the active handling system is adding to the problem and making it 10X worse. So I would like to be able to switch it off and see what happens. http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/avalon/61076-2006-avalon-handling-problems ----------------------- "Love my 05 XLS, but wish it handled better." [weep] http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124788 "I have an 05 Limited. It handles like a full size Buick." http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110760 Can all those Avalon owners be wrong? It gets worse... "Toyota Motor Corp. is recalling about 4,900 of its 2005 model-year Avalon sedans in the United States to fix a defect in the steering wheel column that could result in a loss of control of the vehicle." http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-15037.html Not all is bad, here is the gravy... A favorite among retirees and the elderly... "if your lifestyle requires a lot of rear room -- carrying elderly parents, toting tall kids, etc. -- Avalon's a no-brainer." http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20050211002/tscript.htm -- Hmmmm. When my teacher told me. "Listen, you will often find that a Jesuitical Baccalaureat gives you more mileage than say, a Yale degree," I didn't believe him, but the archives vindicate Brother Honorio a hundredfold. It looks like Young HInes should have been reading text books more instead of listening to the Whiffmyshoos > 2007 Toyota Avalon Reviews > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Michigan; and is built in Georgetown, Kentucky; it could be argued that > the Avalon is the best American car from an American manufacturer.... Translation. Slow, wallowing, over sprung, over engined, bland, poor styling. A typical American car  SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> 2007 Toyota Avalon Reviews >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> Michigan; and is built in Georgetown, Kentucky; it could be argued that >> the Avalon is the best American car from an American manufacturer.... >Translation. >Slow, wallowing, over sprung, over engined, bland, poor styling. >A typical American car Actually, it is built upon a Camry chassis with mainly Camry components. It is designed to appeal to Americans with a real need to feel superior -- without spending the money for a Mercedes or a BMW. By the way, most of the material above was written by a Toyota flack. Signature--- Paul J. Gans > In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > with a real need to feel superior -- without spending the > money for a Mercedes or a BMW. It's just the high end Toyota. Nothing more, nothing less. If people want to feel superior, they buy a Lexus. > By the way, most of the material above was written by a > Toyota flack. > > -- > --- Paul J. Gans > It's just the high end Toyota. Nothing more, nothing less. If > people want to feel superior, they buy a Lexus. Don't you just love the idea of people who buy a car because the want to feel superior... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Dec 16, 2:22 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Don't you just love the idea of people who buy a car because the want to > feel superior... Gotta park something at the McMansions. It's good to have a nice car to live in after the foreclosure. > -- > William Black [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> It's just the high end Toyota. Nothing more, nothing less. If >> people want to feel superior, they buy a Lexus. >Don't you just love the idea of people who buy a car because the want to >feel superior... That's "need to feel superior"... :-) Signature--- Paul J. Gans > In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > -- > --- Paul J. Gans Anyone buying an Avalon to feed his need to feel superior ain't a good provider. > In soc.history.medieval William Black > <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > written by a > Toyota flack. It looks like a typical bourgeois kid carrier. http://www.google.com.au/images?as_q=&hl=en&output=images&svnum=10&btnG=Google+S earch&as_epq=toyota+avalon&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgtype=&imgsz=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_s itesearch=&safe=images&as_st=y > In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > By the way, most of the material above was written by a > Toyota flack. the Camry is a POS, driven primarily by morons (at least here in LA). i'll stick with our 98 C class beater for day to day, the SLK for fun outings and racing for pinks, and my BTS 96 Nissan p/u for log runs... at least until i finally get back the 63 Willys* some bastard stole from me. i'd also like an early 70's Nova, a 66-68 El Camino, a CJ-5, and a Mazda RX-4 station wagon, all suitably w*rked up, SoCal style. a street legal M35-A2 w/winch would be nice too. that would make a helluva of an RV. as a complete aside, i have pictures of an AMC Gremlin i saw in Torrance the other day, complete with a hood scoop, racing slicks and wheelie bars on the back end....street legal with plates. (TINS) redc1c4, *built 327 Chevy: Edelbrock, Holly, Isky, Mallory.... etc. %-( Signature"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching." Army Officer's Guide > a street legal M35-A2 > w/winch would be nice too. that would make a helluva of an RV. Available soon out of the Ft Lewis DMRO X40146 2320-01-077-1617 > > 2007 Toyota Avalon Reviews > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > A typical American car Ah, but it runs... Not like those oil leaking English car's stopped along side the road in the rain with the electrics shorted out.... > In article <fk083h$cf...@registered.motzarella.org>, > william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk says... [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Not like those oil leaking English car's stopped along side the road in > the rain with the electrics shorted out... .....and not able to get parts for. Yep... That's a Primary Consideration: How far away is the nearest dealer who can service your car superbly? Lexus may be too far away also. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> Ah, but it runs... >> Not like those oil leaking English car's stopped along side the road in >> the rain with the electrics shorted out... > > .....and not able to get parts for. > Yep... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lexus may be too far away also. How ignorant. There is a plethora of former Lexus technicians in business for themselves offering virtually the same service than the Lexus dealer for a much lower price, and otherwise "Japanese Specialist" car shops everywhere. All you'll miss is that the service will not go into you Lexus master service record accessible worldwide. Lexus also have a roving mechanic in cities. Like a car ambulance; it is part of their concierge service. If you have a flat when wearing a tuxedo and don't want to bother, call. If you have a Ferrari or a Maserati it can be rather inconvenient to look after your car, but not a Lexus. I understand, however, Mr. Hines' need to make out that there are many advantages of owning a Toyota instead of a Lexus other than monetary, because he could not afford the car he really wanted, due to the misfortune that all Mr. Hines' Yale education got him is more dash than cash. > In article <fk083h$cf...@registered.motzarella.org>, > william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk says... [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Not like those oil leaking English car's stopped along side the road in > the rain with the electrics shorted out.... That is a lie! My MGA's electrics would short out in dry weather. >> Ah, but it runs... >> Not like those oil leaking English car's stopped along side the road in >> the rain with the electrics shorted out.... > > That is a lie! My MGA's electrics would short out in dry weather. When was the MG 'A' last manufactured? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. On Dec 16, 2:20 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >> Ah, but it runs... > >> Not like those oil leaking English car's stopped along side the road in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach > Time for tea. Mine was a 1960 and it's MGA not MG 'A', the following mode, that would have been the death blow without the emissions standards, was the MGB. Leading to the famous line to tell if someone was drunk, say "MGB GT" three times. > On Dec 16, 2:20 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the MGB. Leading to the famous line to tell if someone was drunk, say > "MGB GT" three times. IIRC, the thing that killed the MGB in North America was the impact standards. The silly rubber baby buggy bumpers gave it a face -- and a behind -- that no one could love. Having to go to three wipers because of the narrow windscreen was equally silly. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >> On Dec 16, 2:20 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > behind -- that no one could love. Having to go to three wipers because of > the narrow windscreen was equally silly. I used to work with a guy who ran one of those. It went through tires even faster than that other late 'seventies death trap, the Honda CB 900... It was cold draughty unreliable and ugly and the best indicator of exactly what was wrong with British industry at the time. They were more interested in selling second 'hobby' cars to rich Americans than to ordinary people in the UK. The cars that were sold to domestic customers either designed to fall to bits in half a decade or were so difficult to drive that you needed to employ a chauffer to get safely from A to B. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>> On Dec 16, 2:20 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > difficult to drive that you needed to employ a chauffer to get safely from A > to B. Other than the luxury marques -- Rolls, Bentley, Aston Martin, Jaguar and Range Rover -- the British (the French too, but let's not go there) auto manufacturers never built adequate support networks for their vehicles, nor could they find allies to support them. The vehicles were more prone to failure than North American ones and, when inevitably they did fail, odds were that you would be miles from a dealer. (The luxury cars were nearly as prone, but they were usually close to the dealer since their owners would fly if they were going *that* far.) SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >The vehicles were more prone to >failure than North American ones and, when inevitably they did fail, odds were >that you would be miles from a dealer. Two words. Lucas electrics. Casady On Dec 16, 11:05 am, richardcas...@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:10:58 -0500, "Andrew Chaplin" > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Casady two more words Shoddy workmanship Fair Enough... But... How did the British ever get themselves into that sorry condition? DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> IIRC, the thing that killed the MGB in North America was the impact >> standards. The silly rubber baby buggy bumpers gave it a face -- and a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > difficult to drive that you needed to employ a chauffer to get safely from > A to B. > Fair Enough... > > But... > > How did the British ever get themselves into that sorry condition? At the time both Ford and General Motors were building reliable, comfortable and cheap motor cars in efficient plants. Between 1971 and 1985 I ran a series of British built Fords, none of which ever leaked oil or suffered a major mechanical breakdown. The inevitable conclusion is that the management was crap. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. It sounds as if management completely misread the markets. Did management think they could parlay off shoddy goods on consumers? Union Work Rules & Practices?... British Stodginess? Did they play into this disaster? DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> Fair Enough... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The inevitable conclusion is that the management was crap. > It sounds as if management completely misread the markets. > > Did management think they could parlay off shoddy goods on consumers? I think they had complete contempt for their customers. The management at that time were all 'decent chaps from decent schools who had 'had a good war' ' They had forgotton that their new customers were the soldiers from WWII who 'weren't going to take it anymore'. > Union Work Rules & Practices?... Doubtful. Ford and GM made good cars with the same unions and rules and practices. The British owned companies usually refused to re-engineer until the process machinary was faling to bits, which didn't help. > British Stodginess? You'll have to define that for me. > Did they play into this disaster? The senior management didn't care. Whatever happened they would drop into other directorships provided by their friends. They ran the companies in exactly the way their fathers had and assumed they'd go on forever building rubbish cars because people had always bought their cars. What they missed was the huge expansion of car ownership in the 'sixties meant that the car owning public was a new one, and was made up of people who weren't enthusiastic about changing their own oil, and didn't employ a chauffer to do it for them. They did nothing even when the press reported that the carpark at Longbridge had 30% Fords parked in it... Of course the same people who always had kept 'buying British', and the government did so as well. But the cars the government bought (Land Rovers, big Rover staff cars, Daimler limos) weren't the cars ordinary people bought and so nobody in their major customer base was complaining, just lots of people voting with their wallets. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> It sounds as if management completely misread the markets. >> >> Did management think they could parlay off shoddy goods on consumers? > > I think they had complete contempt for their customers. Hmmmmm... > The management at that time were all 'decent chaps from decent schools who > had 'had a good war' ' Now they wanted to cultivate their OWN gardens and not work too hard at it -- indulge their own passions in their private lives. > They had forgotten that their new customers were the soldiers from WWII > who 'weren't going to take it anymore'. Yes, that's perceptive. >> Union Work Rules & Practices?... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The British owned companies usually refused to re-engineer until the > process machinery was falling to bits, which didn't help. Trying to cut costs, not reinvesting capital in the business and pulling out too much in profits? >> Did they play into this disaster? > > The senior management didn't care. > > Whatever happened they would drop into other directorships provided by > their friends. The British Class System alive and well. British Stodginess & The Old School Tie. > They ran the companies in exactly the way their fathers had and assumed > they'd go on forever building rubbish cars because people had always > bought their cars. Yes, I know of American businesses that failed for the same reasons. Creative Destruction. > What they missed was the huge expansion of car ownership in the 'sixties > meant that the car owning public was a new one, and was made up of people > who weren't enthusiastic about changing their own oil, and didn't employ a > chauffer to do it for them. Perceptive. > They did nothing even when the press reported that the carpark at > Longbridge had 30% Fords parked in it... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their major customer base was complaining, just lots of people voting > with their wallets. Good... Well that's one of the Great Benefits of Capitalism, people are *allowed* to vote with their wallets. William, I think you've done a pretty good job here of limning the phenomenon -- yours is not the COMPLETE answer, that needs fleshing out -- but you've made a good start. I think this is something you have a Good Understanding of, from your perspective -- having lived, suffered and worked through it. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> Union Work Rules & Practices?... >Doubtful. >Ford and GM made good cars with the same unions and rules and practices. >The British owned companies usually refused to re-engineer until the process >machinary was faling to bits, which didn't help. >> British Stodginess? >You'll have to define that for me. >> Did they play into this disaster? >The senior management didn't care. >Whatever happened they would drop into other directorships provided by their >friends. >They ran the companies in exactly the way their fathers had and assumed >they'd go on forever building rubbish cars because people had always bought >their cars. Same thing happened many years later to the US auto industry. They learned nothing from what happened in England. Management was tightly ingrown and continued to build cars the way they always had. A typical US new car in 1950 would have about 30 faults that would have to be repaired by the agency that sold it. My father used to make scrupulous lists by carefully examining the car and then having me note things for him as he drove it. The first foreign car to make an impact in the US was the Volkswagon "Beetle". There was no haggling over price, standard in the US[1]. And it just ran. Of course it was underpowered and low on frills, but it was economical and had few failures. Detroit ignored it as a fad. Then the Japanese cars came to the US. Their high RPM engines (typical US cars of the time revved all the way up to maybe 2500 RPM) bothered Americans at first, but their undeniable build quality and superb reliability slowly began to make inroads. In the face of this Detroit kept building the same old shoddy cars needing high maintanance and which had low feul milage. Most US cars then were clapped out at 70,000 miles and it was party time if your car made it to 100,000 miles. Japanese built cars had excellent gas milage, needed little maintainance, and routinely made it well past 100,000 miles. Detroit has been playing catch-up, but we are watching the slow death of the last major industry in the US. And of course, management is blaming it all on the unions. [1] Where simple minded folks think they get away with a bargain because they overpay less than folks who don't haggle as much. They act as if they have somehow talked the agency into selling the car at a loss. Signature--- Paul J. Gans > And of course, management is blaming it all on the unions. That's pretty standard. There are still people who claim that British Leyland was destroyed by a huge Communist conspiracy run by 'Red Robbo'. I think Ford are still the largest British car maker by volume, but they're busy selling Jaguar and Land Rover... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> And of course, management is blaming it all on the unions. >That's pretty standard. >There are still people who claim that British Leyland was destroyed by a >huge Communist conspiracy run by 'Red Robbo'. >I think Ford are still the largest British car maker by volume, but they're >busy selling Jaguar and Land Rover... Here they are in deep trouble. A recession might well kill them off. Signature--- Paul J. Gans Gans is GENERALLY quite correct here. But see below. Today Toyota is kicking the rear end of GM because they build better cars and the American consumer knows it. Vide infra pro interscriptibus. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > In soc.history.medieval William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >>> Union Work Rules & Practices?... [DSH] > >>Doubtful. Simplistic. It takes two to tango. >>Ford and GM made good cars with the same unions and rules and practices. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > but it was economical and had few failures. Detroit ignored it > as a fad. Yes, I owned one of the first -- and loved it. Except you couldn't carry much in it. But it wasn't designed for that. > Then the Japanese cars came to the US. Their high RPM engines > (typical US cars of the time revved all the way up to maybe 2500 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cars needing high maintanance [sic] and which had low feul [sic] milage > [sic]. > Most US cars then were clapped out at 70,000 miles and it was > party time if your car made it to 100,000 miles. > > Japanese built cars had excellent gas milage [sic], needed little > maintainance [sic], and routinely made it well past 100,000 miles. The Real Shock to the U.S. consumer came in the early 1970's with the rise of the power of the OPEC Cartel and the gas lines. > Detroit has been playing catch-up, but we are watching the > slow death of the last major industry in the US. Grossly Overstated. Drama Queen Stuff... Creative Destruction. Adapt Or Die. Darwinian. American Automobile Corporations Are Gradually Reacting, Rethinking & Reforming. Gans is too IMPATIENT, just as he is on IRAQ.... That's one of the problems with CHEMISTS -- they always expect the same, often INSTANTANEOUS REACTION -- given two chemicals. HISTORY is not so MECHANISTIC. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > [someone else wrote:] >> >> Japanese built cars had excellent gas milage [sic], needed little >> maintainance [sic], and routinely made it well past 100,000 miles. I just said bye-bye to a manual transmission 1998 Acura Integra with 207,000 miles on it. Granted, mostly highway miles, but after eight years and more than 200K the car still had its original clutch and the exhaust system was just starting to rust out. > The Real Shock to the U.S. consumer came in the early 1970's with the rise > of the power of the OPEC Cartel and the gas lines. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Creative Destruction. Adapt Or Die. Darwinian. Terse and to the point as ever, Commander Hines! By the way, may I Compliment You on your Skillful Use of Gratuituous Capitalization? > American Automobile Corporations Are Gradually Reacting, Rethinking & > Reforming. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's one of the problems with CHEMISTS -- they always expect the same, > often INSTANTANEOUS REACTION -- given two chemicals. Absotively posilutely, Commander! Why would anyone expect the war in Iraq to be over in not much more time than it took to utterly defeat Italy, Germany, and Japan in the largest war in history? That's soooo last century! Foolish liberal traitors like Gans don't APPRECIATE that now it's the New Era of the Struggle Against Fascistic Jihado-Islamism, a threat so grave that Hitler and his Axis pale in comparison! Now wars are expected to last FOREVER, conveniently (and OF COURSE by TOTAL COINCIDENCE) conferring Article 2 WAR POWERS on our COMMANDER-in-CHIEF in PERPETUITY! > HISTORY is not so MECHANISTIC. Here I respectfully beg to differ, Commander Hines. History is not the flighty anything-can-happen airy stuff of moonbeams and possible turn-on-a-dime change that seditionist liberals and their witless dupes and fellow-travelers imagine it to be, of course. It is, however, mechanistic. It will inevitably take DECADES or even CENTURIES for the MIGHTY MACHINERY of HISTORY to GRIND OUT the RESULTS that the pogue-ish fool Gans IMAGINES might be POSSIBLE to OBTAIN in MERE YEARS. We cannot say NOW, of course, how much BLOOD will be REQUIRED to LUBRICATE the GEARS of HISTORY in the MEANTIME. But we can rest assured that ONE DAY in the FAR DISTANT FUTURE the last several SURVIVING IRAQIS will inevitably ENJOY the BLESSINGS of the FREE MARKET under a FREELY ELECTED government. All glory to the Decider-In-Chief, George W. Bush, and to his Wise Counselor and Vice-Decider, "Deadeye" Dick Cheney! Long may they continue to protect the Security and Safety of the Homeland! ljd I'm growing weary of reading about cars like this like that. Doesn't this piss you off? You're reading for fun, and the writer has to stop and describe all the old bangers he's ever driven. Who cares?.......I'm not interested. Skip the scrap metal and get to the f.cking. > > [someone else wrote:] > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > ljd > It sounds as if management completely misread the markets. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > DSH All of the above. Andrew Swallow > Lux et Veritas et Libertas > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> The inevitable conclusion is that the management was crap. Yes, closer to the mark. DSH >> It sounds as if management completely misread the markets. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >> Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> Fair Enough... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The inevitable conclusion is that the management was crap. The Ford Cortina was the only British Ford offering to make it to North America that I can recall, and it wasn't at all bad, except in deepest winter. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) On Dec 17, 6:48 am, "Andrew Chaplin" <ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote: > >> Fair Enough... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO > (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) I once owned a Chevrolet Vega, it reminded me of many British cars friends had owned, metal particles in the gas tank blocking the fuel filter, the paint on the roof going rusted, transmission leaks, overheating etc. That was shoddy construction, not management. On Dec 17, 7:27 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote: > On Dec 17, 6:48 am, "Andrew Chaplin" > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > filter, the paint on the roof going rusted, transmission leaks, > overheating etc. That was shoddy construction, not management. Management is/was responsible for shoddy construction. >>> Fair Enough... >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > America that I can recall, and it wasn't at all bad, except in deepest > winter. I ran a series of Cortinas from a Mk 2 up to a Mk 4, including a scary Mk 3 XLR 2 litre with a water cooled Webber carb. It remains my favorite car and if I could afford it I'd have a restored one as a second car. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>> Fair Enough... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It remains my favorite car and if I could afford it I'd have a restored one > as a second car. The early Hyundais were, by and large, cribbed from the Cortina -- no wonder. It's not surprising that it had a hard time in winter here, most vehicles do. "It's 40 below and I don't give a f*ck, Gotta heater in my truck and I'm off to the rodeo...." SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) Indeed. How well I remember it. DSH > IIRC, the thing that killed the MGB in North America was the impact > standards. The silly rubber baby buggy bumpers gave it a face -- and a > behind -- that no one could love. Having to go to three wipers because of > the narrow windscreen was equally silly. > That is a lie! My MGA's electrics would short out in dry weather. Ah, yes, those were the days..."The parts falling off this vehicle are certified by British Leland to be of the highest quality." Which is not to say that I don't, at some masochistic level, miss my old Triumph Spitfire (IV)...with it, driving was always an adventure. One never quite knew what was going to leak, short out, fall off, grind to a halt or sputter away when one took it out. A fun little car, as long as you really didn't need to get where you were going. Deirdre On Dec 16, 10:58 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > That is a lie! My MGA's electrics would short out in dry weather. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Deirdre Before I realized that the loss of electrics was due to the shorting of the ground strap, which reached from the battery location behind the driver to the engine, my "solution" was pounding on the hood. It seemed to work, but scared any dates witless that the old "run out of gas" dodge had an even more threatening back up. > On Dec 16, 10:58 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas > <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > seemed to work, but scared any dates witless that the old "run out of > gas" dodge had an even more threatening back up. Mine seemed to thrive on fuel and throttle issues and, like most other owners of these beasts, there were a multitude of unor- thodox solutions for "fixing" them...many of said "fixes" quite alarming to those not In The Know. Not a good vehicle for Chicago winters, very uncomfortable...but for those three days a year when the weather was fair and the car was actually running? Life was good indeed. Deirdre >> On Dec 16, 10:58 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas >> <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Deirdre Replacing those 'cup-with-a-screw' battery cable ends with clamps and coating with electrolyte and then with liquid rubber worked wonders on my MGs, as did opening the bonnet(MGs don't have hoods, or rather they do have hoods but they don't cover the engine) and sliding evey one of those lttle weird alloy slip electrical connecters when the car seemed to need a tune-up. Proof positive that the reason the English drink warm beer is because they have Lucas refridgerators. And then there's the tappets and carburetors. I loved those cars, but then that's required to own one. SignatureSaint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 > >> On Dec 16, 10:58 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas > >> <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > because they have Lucas refridgerators. And then there's the tappets and > carburetors. I loved those cars, but then that's required to own one. It's a strange thing to love a car (or anything mechanical) but those wee pieces of idiosyncratic automotive crap certainly did inspire love. There's no other explanation for why one would put up with such vehicular foibles and _not_ trade the thing off as "unreliable"...especially since mine predated both cell and car phones so roadside breakdowns invariably required trudging to the nearest farmhouse to beg use of a phone. Deirdre >> carburetors They put the same pair on the old pushrod [pre 75] Volvos. That motor would easily reach 8000 without immediate signs of distress. It was not British, of course. They eventually went for Bosch fuel injection, and in 76, OHC. Casady On Dec 18, 3:24 pm, richardcas...@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:14:37 GMT, Deirdre Sholto Douglas > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Casady I borrowed a P444 Volvo from a friend. In the midst of nowhere the throttle connection vanished. Engine running push on accelartor no action. Opened the hood, found the leverage between the throttle linkage and the engine had an "s" or "w" spring to dampen any heavy feet. Wrapped up in wire and off again. Another $1 part crippled a Eurp car. >> >> On Dec 16, 10:58 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas >> >> <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Deirdre The new cars are better cars, but they have no character...at least not the ones I can afford. SignatureSaint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 On Dec 18, 6:22 pm, "Séimí mac Liam" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote: > >> >> On Dec 16, 10:58 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas > >> >> <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > Prophet of The Great Tagger > Canonized December '99 Tried a Subaru? > On Dec 18, 6:22 pm, "Séimí mac Liam" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Tried a Subaru? Owned five of them before they got all bland-like. SignatureSaint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 >The new cars are better cars, but they have no character...at least not >the ones I can afford. Tried a Mazda RX-8? SignatureThe nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com >>The new cars are better cars, but they have no character...at least not >>the ones I can afford. > > Tried a Mazda RX-8? I'm reasonably fond of the blandmobile I'm currently driving. Needs a manual tranny and just a smidge more power. SignatureSaint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 >>>The new cars are better cars, but they have no character...at least not >>>the ones I can afford. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I'm reasonably fond of the blandmobile I'm currently driving. Needs a >manual tranny and just a smidge more power. Our other car is a diesel Vauxhall Astra. Dull and vanilla, but its saving grace is reliability. And economy. Its two saving graces are reliability and economy, and a remarkable practicality... its three graces are reliability, economy, practicality and being thoroughly pleasant to drive even if unexciting... I'll come in again, shall I? SignatureThe nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com > In message <Xns9A0AA01223643...@216.196.97.136>, Séimí mac Liam > <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net> writes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > graces are reliability, economy, practicality and being thoroughly > pleasant to drive even if unexciting... Makes the Avalon sound great. In message <f7baeee7-fdf7-45b6-a28b-994f0842d180@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, Tiglath <temp5@tiglath.net> writes >> Our other car is a diesel Vauxhall Astra. Dull and vanilla, but its >> saving grace is reliability. And economy. Its two saving graces are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Makes the Avalon sound great. At twice the price, and using twice the fuel, it should surely be at least a *little* better. The Astra is an inexpensive and dependable hack, it just happens to be pleasantly natured with it. SignatureThe nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com > In message > <f7baeee7-fdf7-45b6-a28b-994f0842d...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The Astra is an inexpensive and dependable hack, it just happens to be > pleasantly natured with it. I had a couple of Honda like that. Underpowered but little lions they are. I put more than 250K on a Prelude, which fitted me like a glove, robbing all leg room from the guy in the back, but 2+2 are just a kinder sort of iron maidens anyway. When I gave it to charity they drove it away still. I miss it. I remember driving from Montreal to Toronto in winter blizzards watching rear-wheel premiums stuck everywhere. The joy of it! > -- > The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com "Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote... > Tiglath <temp5@tiglath.net> writes >>> Our other car is a diesel Vauxhall Astra. Dull and vanilla, but its [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The Astra is an inexpensive and dependable hack, it just happens to be > pleasantly natured with it. Having driven in Oahu, I'd recommend a heavy vehicle with brush guards and reinforced bumpers. Between the locals and the tourists, there's a crazed atmosphere along most streets and roads in the tropical less-than-Paradise. While hardly comparable to wines, fine or jug, family/personal vehicles are certainly subject to relative value analysis (although many seemed to be locked into the subjectivity of "perceived value" as a part of the selection process. Even distilled spirits are not always subject to equal price/value relationships. Last night, I had a serving of "expensive" Ouzo, but a second from a bottle of 92 proof downscale brand ($10.36 for 750ml). The low end popskull had a fuller flavor and better value (if the fine aroma of paregoric is what you're seeking). We drive a pair of Ford Expeditions, 2001 & 2004, the last purchased because instead of being annually depreciated as a business vehicle, it was subject to immediate write off, a substantial tax savings for one self-employed. I certainly would have liked an upscale Range Rover, but at about one third the price, every relative value comparison I could come up with favored the humble Ford, essentially an F-150 in SUV metal. Other than a bit gas-hoggish (although 5 or 10 miles per gallon consumption margin amounts to a small portion of vehicle ownership costs), the hulking Expeds are comfortable, durable and spacious enough for light housekeeping or modest hauling. One of my comparisons was given greater weight this morning at 0555 Local, when a lady speeding to work, lost control in a "fishtail, and spun out to collide with my left rear wheel and side mount step. Her car was "totaled", damaged with repair costs exceeding wholesale value. Mine, still drivable, but needing a tire change for safety, received modest cosmetic damage, more expensive to fix than it ought to be, but a wheel, tire, plastic hubcap, remounted side step and a trim panel will only set back her insurance company a small chunk compared to what the panel beaters and spare parts distributors for Range Rovers would expect in a similar collision. I've got nothing against Avalons, sort of semi-Lexi "salons" for the price conscious, but don't find them to be any better than a handful of US and NippoAmerican breeds of similar size/configuration. With current semi-sacrifice/clear inventory selling by dealers, the two best value vehicles I've driven lately have been the Mazda CR7 crossover and the even more humble Hyundai Tucson, the marque's smallest SUV. No maker has improved its products more in the last decade than Hyundai (and adding the 100,000 mile warranty makes them even more attractive). Worth Reading... DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas > "Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote... >> >> Tiglath <temp5@tiglath.net> writes >>>> Our other car is a diesel Vauxhall Astra. Dull and vanilla, but its >>>> saving grace is reliability. And economy. Its two saving graces are [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > improved its products more in the last decade than Hyundai (and adding the > 100,000 mile warranty makes them even more attractive). > Having driven in Oahu, I'd recommend a heavy vehicle with brush guards and > reinforced bumpers. Between the locals and the tourists, there's a crazed > atmosphere along most streets and roads in the tropical > less-than-Paradise. I mentioned an elderly jeep a considerable time ago. Everyone said 'Jeeps are for tourists...' SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>>The new cars are better cars, but they have no character...at least not >>>>the ones I can afford. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I'll come in again, shall I? No one expects the Spanish Inquisition...but it's still an ok car. SignatureSaint Séimí mac Liam Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve Prophet of The Great Tagger Canonized December '99 The fact that Mr. Hines is so willing to embarrass himself coming here and write glowing reports of the Toyota Avalon reminds me that this country's most profitable business is still the manufacture, packaging, distribution and marketing of bullshit. High quality, grade- A, prime-cut pure American bullshit. > > It's a strange thing to love a car (or anything mechanical) > > but those wee pieces of idiosyncratic automotive crap [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The new cars are better cars, but they have no character...at least not > the ones I can afford. You could say much the same thing about new(er) houses... they're more energy efficient, they unquestionably have more built-in bells and whistles and mod cons, but they lack the, for want of a better word, "personality" of older houses. Deirdre "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:4768AD0D.342430D2@sbcglobal.net... >> > It's a strange thing to love a car (or >> > anything mechanical) [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Deirdre The trend of the new age is towards "minimalism" in which dwellings are swept clean of carpets, richly-framed paintings and mirrors, several cats, wall hangings and murals, rich window treatments, tasselled table covers, velvet drapes, portieres, potted palms and aristocratic clutter. Outrageous! Why cannot a kitchen and bathroom have each have a splendid chandelier, carpeted floors, gold-framed mirrors, paintings, carriage clocks, stained-glass windows swept with satin brocade, a sun curtain and a potted palm? A friend of mine cleverly trained some creeping ivy into his kitchen to cover one wall - a brilliant talking point. > "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" > <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > The trend of the new age is towards > "minimalism" Is that what you call it? And here I've been assuming it was simply the builder cutting costs where it didn't show. > in which dwellings are swept > clean of carpets, richly-framed paintings and > mirrors, several cats, wall hangings and > murals, rich window treatments, tasselled > table covers, velvet drapes, portieres, > potted palms and aristocratic clutter. None of which adds to the "character" of a dwelling... you see, Peter, when a person says an older house has character, particularly if they're living in it at the time, what they're really doing is whistling past the graveyard...character comes at a price. Our last house had "character" oozing out every one of its original windows (keeping the heat company I assume). It was built by a Victorian with too much money and too many odd ideas of "style"...there were lovely wood floors and mouldings, plaster walls, high ceilings, a sweeping front staircase (pokey back one), odd little widow's walk on the front, built in bookcases and dressers, odd wee dressing room, two pantries...the list trails on forever it was a great place. However its "character" wasn't from any of the above, the above lent it "charm", but character? The character was located in the hulking behemoth of a boiler lurking in the (always) damp basement, in the Dali-esque plumbing and attendant low water pressure, in the windows where the sash weight cords would break for no apparent reason save that they wanted to, in the electrical wiring which even a century later was clearly the result of a low-ball bid, in the plastered over, albeit still operational gas jets in the living room walls... In short, the character of a house, like the character of a 1970's British sports car, is to be found in all those little surprises which make you say "Shite!" whilst simul- taneously reaching for the phone and the chequebook. > Outrageous! Why cannot a kitchen and > bathroom have each have a splendid Something tells me you've not lived in places which truly have "character"...people who do don't want chandeliers in their kitchens, they want counter space, working taps and no cachepots in the way when it rains...they don't want steam showers or multiple sink vanities, they just want enough water pressure to run a regular shower and a toilet that reliably flushes _without_ making strange, sinister gurgling noises. Trust me, those who live in character filled house have very simple wish-lists when compared to those who live in modern ones. > A > friend of mine cleverly trained some creeping > ivy into his kitchen to cover one wall - a > brilliant talking point. That sounds like the ravings of someone who's never had to deal with an ivy covered house...spend a summer keeping it (and all its wee residents) from coming in your windows and you'll never look at ivy-covered walls the same way... it ceases to be be "quaint" when you realise what an eco- system it is. Deirdre On Dec 19, 9:31 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" > > <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > Deirdre Two brick houses, neither old enough to be quaint, pulling ivy off of every niche, including cellar windows. Then four years in one and 22 in the other scraping the little stickers off the bricks. Fun time when the golf course, adjacent and uphill, becomes a collective area for every drop of rain that falls and channels it all into the yard. For those of you who yearn to live next to a golf course, and we have had visitors who did the "golf course stare", don't. The jolly time of picking up stray balls in the yard is fairly well offset by the language of those who just strayed from the fairway. "Daddy, what did that man say?" On Dec 19, 9:54 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote: > On Dec 19, 9:31 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas > [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > well offset by the language of those who just strayed from the > fairway. "Daddy, what did that man say?" If the house is positioned just right, all you have to do is sweep them off the floor...along with the broken glass. On Dec 19, 10:55 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote: > On Dec 19, 9:54 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > If the house is positioned just right, all you have to do is sweep > them off the floor...along with the broken glass. They only hit the house once and that was intentional. The area on the course but off the fairway was a grove of oak trees that the grounds keeper would let die rather than prune them out. One golfer who, from his demonstrated skills, shouldn't have been stuck between the trees and our house, hit away from the hole, bounced off our eaves and into a better lie.. > On Dec 19, 9:31 am, Deirdre Sholto Douglas > <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > That sounds like the ravings of someone who's never had > > to deal with an ivy covered house...spend a summer keeping [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > every niche, including cellar windows. Then four years in one and 22 > in the other scraping the little stickers off the bricks. Ivy actually makes fairly good insulation if it's properly maintained, but too many people don't seem to understand that it can't be allowed any- where near wood trim or copper guttering. The ivy was, literally, running wild when we moved in... it took a full summer of non-stop pruning to clear the wood and copper and then, once that was done, the maintenance was constant...with fort- nightly inspections to ensure it didn't get out of hand again. I like the look of it, but I just don't have the interest in something which requires that much attention...and I really don't want all the creepy crawlies entering via every window any more. > Fun time when the golf course, adjacent and uphill, becomes a > collective area for every drop of rain that falls and channels it all > into the yard. Ouch...have you drain tiles? (For Real Fun, have you ever had a guest discover an antique, previously unkent, system of drainage by stepping on the lawn and crashing through and sinking into unknown cera- mic pipes? Livens up a garden party beyond words...) Deirdre >> "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" >> <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > >Gladys Shotgun Daydream A very eloquent, evocative and well-written piece which obviously came from the heart. My compliments and commiserations James > >Gladys Shotgun Daydream Pfffft! > A very eloquent, evocative and well-written piece > which obviously came from the heart. > > My compliments and commiserations My thanks. The current abode has a lot less charm than the old place, but it also has fewer character building moments...a state of affairs which both my chequebook and lower back appreciate. Deirdre <MUCHO snipping> >. . . when a person says an older house has character, >particularly if they're living in it at the time, what >they're really doing is whistling past the graveyard... >character comes at a price. Our last house >had "character" oozing out every one of its original >windows (keeping the heat company I assume). The relevent word is "original" ! >In short, the character of a house, like the character of >a 1970's British sports car, is to be found in all those >little surprises which make you say "Shite!" whilst simul- >taneously reaching for the phone and the chequebook. True, but, to come back to the vehicular theme, you don't replace the 'original' with the same out of date technology ! Problem is that, whether vehicles or houses, one is then accused of ruining the "character" of the original. Usually by those with no personal experience of doing anything other than have *someone else* replace the 'bit wot fell off' ! >Something tells me you've not lived in places which truly >have "character"...people who do don't want chandeliers [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a toilet that reliably flushes _without_ making strange, >sinister gurgling noises. Got all of those and this house was built in 1885 or thereabouts ! When we moved in 25 years ago, there was still (disconnected) small bore gas piping, presumably for lighting, in the loft. -- jjj > <MUCHO snipping> > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > When we moved in 25 years ago, there was still (disconnected) > small bore gas piping, presumably for lighting, in the loft. Our house was built in 1936 and still has gas-lighting pipes up and down the walls which we remove from time to time. It was sold with a free crystal radio set as a special offer. It had little railings on the garden walls when it was built but the government took them away to make bombs. >> <MUCHO snipping> >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > little railings on the garden walls when it was built but the > government took them away to make bombs. No, they were just dumped in the Thames Estuary. SignatureJohn Briggs Railings of what metal? DSH >>> <MUCHO snipping> >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > No, they were just dumped in the Thames Estuary. > Railings of what metal? It doesn't really matter - they weren't used. So it didn't matter if they were wrought iron or cast iron. SignatureJohn Briggs >It doesn't really matter - they weren't used. So it didn't matter if they >were wrought iron or cast iron. Probably wrought. Ornamental iron is the major application for the stuff. Casady "Richard Casady" <richardcasady@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:4769957b.159071671@news.east.earthlink.net... > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:34:39 GMT, "John > Briggs" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Casady I have a Victorian fence and the bars are of wrought iron but the pretty spears are cast iron. > Railings of what metal? A sort of metallic metal. How do I know? The neighbour told |
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