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Bill Safire Stands Corrected Re: He/Him

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D. Spencer Hines - 23 Feb 2008 05:30 GMT
March 19, 2006

On Language

Standing Corrected

By WILLIAM SAFIRE
The New York Times

Soon after his appearance during the Super Bowl halftime show, Mick Jagger
was berated in this space for saying, "All things come to he who waits."
With icy humility, I explained that the sentence should go, "All things come
to _him_ who waits."

In came an objection from William Rickles, M.D., of Los Angeles, who
identified himself as "just a shrink who waits and listens to a great deal
of wrong pronoun case usage in my well-educated, 20-something patients, and
my ear no longer rebels as it used to."  He noted: "_He_ is not the object
of the preposition to in this sentence.  The phrase _he who waits_ is the
object of _to_, and _he who_ is the subject of the verb _waits_ and is
properly the subjective case."

Another pro-Jagger-usage reader, Andrew Charig of Port Murray, N.J., agreed:
"The object of the preposition _to_ is the noun clause _he who waits_ — with
_he_ being the subject of the clause, and correctly in the nominative case."

Hmf, I thought. (I often think in snorts.)  What do they know from grammar?
_Him_ is the objective case of the second-person male pronoun and thus used
as the object of the preposition to.  _Who waits_ modifies him and is not
the tail end of a "noun clause."  Then in came a letter — a real postal
letter signed in antediluvian ink, mailed from San Antonio at the cost of an
old-fashioned stamp — from Jacques Barzun, the revered emeritus professor
from Columbia University who published his masterpiece, "_From Dawn to
Decadence_," in 2000, when he was 92.

After saluting my energy in skewering nonce neologisms like _deliciousing_,
my candidate for World's Wisest Living Intellectual wrote: "Isn't there a
sign of split personality or bipolarity of some sort" — everybody's a
shrink — "in your appending a squib about the error of _he_ instead of _him_
in an otherwise normal sentence?  For my part, I would let go all the rules
requiring _whom_, _him_ and _as_ for _like_ and so on.  They are but
survivals in a language that has been stripped of niceties, and I consider
_deliciousing_ a far worse offense than _between you and I_."

That's a shocker, coming from my favorite frequent correspondent, who has
manned the ramparts of proper usage and accurate etymology since Hector was
a pup.  I kind of like the surviving niceties of language.  We can defend
the pleasures of living in syntax with time left over to mock the profusion
of confusion by the _couldn't-care-less_ niceties-strippers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The instruction that comes from my friend and mentor Jacques is welcome
because he doesn't merely correct.  He teaches with specific examples.
Consider this letter that followed a column of mine about "snoopspeak," the
lexicon of sophisticated electronic surveillance that can no longer
accurately be called _wiretapping_. "I regret that you want to discard
_wiretap_," he wrote.  "You lend aid to the fallacious notion that the use
of every new gadget for an old purpose must get a new name.  Doing that
regularly would be distracting, and the quality of the perpetual
replacements would be dubious.  Electronic surveillance is a case in point:
it has compelled you to write four paragraphs about pronunciation and wind
up wrong at that, since _survey_ should end not with the l sound but with a
_clear eyyy_."

(That means that he pronounces the verb surveil as sur-VEY-yuh. That's all
very well for Jacques, born in France 98 years ago, but in Merkin, we
already pronounce the l in adopting the French noun _surveillance_ and
should logically pronounce the l in the verb we have back-formed, with
_surveil_ rhyming with _prevail_.  End of interruption.)

"The fallacy behind perpetual recoinage," Barzun continued, "is to suppose
that words must describe instead of stand for and evoke.  For a reasonably
stable language, words must continue to cover new details, and they can: we
_ship_ goods by truck and plane.  We have _cash_ in the bank though it is
only a balance and not even written down.  The _bath_ room has only a shower
stall.  The table and bed _linen_ are of cotton thread with some plastic
intertwined.  A _lecture_ is not necessarily read.  I am _typing_ on a
computer that uses no type.  The man you quote who said _record store_ was
'outdated but still in use' didn't stop to think.  What are CD's and DVD's
if not records?"
The Highlander - 23 Feb 2008 06:08 GMT
> March 19, 2006
>
> On Language
>
> Standing Corrected
<snipped sh.t>
Boy, when you bore, you really go all the way!
Nebulous - 23 Feb 2008 10:27 GMT
"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:06509b79-0d3b-

Some Scottish culture, courtesy of Spencer Hines.
Jottings of New York
Oh, mighty city of New York, you are wonderful to behold--
Your buildings are magnificent-- the truth be it told--
They were the only thing that seemed to arrest my eye,
Because many of them are thirteen storeys high;
And as for Central Park, it is lovely to be seen--
Especially in the summer season when its shrubberies are green
And the Burns Statue is there to be seen,
Surrounded by trees on the beautiful sward so green;
Also Shakespeare and the immortal Sir Walter Scott,
Which by Scotchmen and Englishmen will never be forgot.

There are people on the Sabbath day in thousands resort--
All lov'd, in conversation, and eager for sport;
And some of them viewing the wild beasts there,
While the joyous shouts of children does rend the air--
And also beautiful black swans, I do declare.

And there's beautiful boats to be seen there,
And joyous shouts of children does rend the air,
While the boats sail along with them o'er Lohengrin Lake,
And fare is 5 cents for children, and adults ten is all they take.

And there's also summer-house shades, and merry-go-rounds
And with the merry laughter of the children the Park resounds,
During the live-long Sabbath day
Enjoying themselves at the merry-go-round play.

Then there's the elevated railroads about five storeys high,
Which the inhabitants can hear night and day passing by;
Of, such a mass of people there daily do throng--
No less than five 100,000 daily pass along;
And all along the city you can get for five cents--
And, believe me, among the passengers there's few discontent.

And the top of the houses are mostly all flat,
And in the warm weather the people gather to chat;
Besides, on the housetops they dry their clothes;
And, also, many people all night on the housetops repose.

And numerous ships end steamboats are there to be seen,
Sailing along the East River water, which is very green--
Which is certainly a most beautiful sight
To see them sailing o'er the smooth water day and night.

And as for Brooklyn Bridge, it's a very great height,
And fills the stranger's heart with wonder at first sight;
And with all its loftiness I venture to say
It cannot surpass the new railway bridge of the Silvery Tay.

And there's also ten thousand rumsellers there--
Oh, wonderful to think of, I do declare!
To accommodate the people of New York therein,
And to encourage them to commit all sorts of sin

And on the Sabbath day ye will see many a man
Going for beer with a big tin can,
And seems proud to be seen carrying home the beer
To treat his neighbours and his family dear.

Then at night numbers of the people dance and sing,
Making the walls of their houses to ring
With their songs and dancing on Sabbath night,
Which I witnessed with disgust, and fled from the sight.

And with regard to New York and the sights I did see--
Believe me, I never saw such sights in Dundee;
And the morning I sailed from the city of New York
My heart it felt as light as a cork.
sandy58 - 23 Feb 2008 09:59 GMT
> March 19, 2006
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> 'outdated but still in use' didn't stop to think.  What are CD's and DVD's
> if not records?"

What a load of babble. :-(
Nebulous - 23 Feb 2008 10:27 GMT
"sandy58" <aleckie60@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:09557ca9-

Some Scottish culture, courtesy of Spencer Hines.
Jottings of New York
Oh, mighty city of New York, you are wonderful to behold--
Your buildings are magnificent-- the truth be it told--
They were the only thing that seemed to arrest my eye,
Because many of them are thirteen storeys high;
And as for Central Park, it is lovely to be seen--
Especially in the summer season when its shrubberies are green
And the Burns Statue is there to be seen,
Surrounded by trees on the beautiful sward so green;
Also Shakespeare and the immortal Sir Walter Scott,
Which by Scotchmen and Englishmen will never be forgot.

There are people on the Sabbath day in thousands resort--
All lov'd, in conversation, and eager for sport;
And some of them viewing the wild beasts there,
While the joyous shouts of children does rend the air--
And also beautiful black swans, I do declare.

And there's beautiful boats to be seen there,
And joyous shouts of children does rend the air,
While the boats sail along with them o'er Lohengrin Lake,
And fare is 5 cents for children, and adults ten is all they take.

And there's also summer-house shades, and merry-go-rounds
And with the merry laughter of the children the Park resounds,
During the live-long Sabbath day
Enjoying themselves at the merry-go-round play.

Then there's the elevated railroads about five storeys high,
Which the inhabitants can hear night and day passing by;
Of, such a mass of people there daily do throng--
No less than five 100,000 daily pass along;
And all along the city you can get for five cents--
And, believe me, among the passengers there's few discontent.

And the top of the houses are mostly all flat,
And in the warm weather the people gather to chat;
Besides, on the housetops they dry their clothes;
And, also, many people all night on the housetops repose.

And numerous ships end steamboats are there to be seen,
Sailing along the East River water, which is very green--
Which is certainly a most beautiful sight
To see them sailing o'er the smooth water day and night.

And as for Brooklyn Bridge, it's a very great height,
And fills the stranger's heart with wonder at first sight;
And with all its loftiness I venture to say
It cannot surpass the new railway bridge of the Silvery Tay.

And there's also ten thousand rumsellers there--
Oh, wonderful to think of, I do declare!
To accommodate the people of New York therein,
And to encourage them to commit all sorts of sin

And on the Sabbath day ye will see many a man
Going for beer with a big tin can,
And seems proud to be seen carrying home the beer
To treat his neighbours and his family dear.

Then at night numbers of the people dance and sing,
Making the walls of their houses to ring
With their songs and dancing on Sabbath night,
Which I witnessed with disgust, and fled from the sight.

And with regard to New York and the sights I did see--
Believe me, I never saw such sights in Dundee;
And the morning I sailed from the city of New York
My heart it felt as light as a cork.
Nebulous - 23 Feb 2008 10:26 GMT
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message

Some Scottish culture, courtesy of Spencer Hines.
Jottings of New York
Oh, mighty city of New York, you are wonderful to behold--
Your buildings are magnificent-- the truth be it told--
They were the only thing that seemed to arrest my eye,
Because many of them are thirteen storeys high;
And as for Central Park, it is lovely to be seen--
Especially in the summer season when its shrubberies are green
And the Burns Statue is there to be seen,
Surrounded by trees on the beautiful sward so green;
Also Shakespeare and the immortal Sir Walter Scott,
Which by Scotchmen and Englishmen will never be forgot.

There are people on the Sabbath day in thousands resort--
All lov'd, in conversation, and eager for sport;
And some of them viewing the wild beasts there,
While the joyous shouts of children does rend the air--
And also beautiful black swans, I do declare.

And there's beautiful boats to be seen there,
And joyous shouts of children does rend the air,
While the boats sail along with them o'er Lohengrin Lake,
And fare is 5 cents for children, and adults ten is all they take.

And there's also summer-house shades, and merry-go-rounds
And with the merry laughter of the children the Park resounds,
During the live-long Sabbath day
Enjoying themselves at the merry-go-round play.

Then there's the elevated railroads about five storeys high,
Which the inhabitants can hear night and day passing by;
Of, such a mass of people there daily do throng--
No less than five 100,000 daily pass along;
And all along the city you can get for five cents--
And, believe me, among the passengers there's few discontent.

And the top of the houses are mostly all flat,
And in the warm weather the people gather to chat;
Besides, on the housetops they dry their clothes;
And, also, many people all night on the housetops repose.

And numerous ships end steamboats are there to be seen,
Sailing along the East River water, which is very green--
Which is certainly a most beautiful sight
To see them sailing o'er the smooth water day and night.

And as for Brooklyn Bridge, it's a very great height,
And fills the stranger's heart with wonder at first sight;
And with all its loftiness I venture to say
It cannot surpass the new railway bridge of the Silvery Tay.

And there's also ten thousand rumsellers there--
Oh, wonderful to think of, I do declare!
To accommodate the people of New York therein,
And to encourage them to commit all sorts of sin

And on the Sabbath day ye will see many a man
Going for beer with a big tin can,
And seems proud to be seen carrying home the beer
To treat his neighbours and his family dear.

Then at night numbers of the people dance and sing,
Making the walls of their houses to ring
With their songs and dancing on Sabbath night,
Which I witnessed with disgust, and fled from the sight.

And with regard to New York and the sights I did see--
Believe me, I never saw such sights in Dundee;
And the morning I sailed from the city of New York
My heart it felt as light as a cork.
James Hogg - 23 Feb 2008 10:43 GMT
>March 19, 2006
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>requiring _whom_, _him_ and _as_ for _like_ and so on.  They are but
>survivals in a language that has been stripped of niceties."

In other words, this professor who "corrected" Safire thinks that the
old rule (as practised by Washington, Jefferson, T. Roosevelt,
Emerson, Churchill, and numerous other authors whom I have cited) is
now just a "survival".

At least he doesn't think this "nicety" is, to quote the semi-educated
amateur Hines, "DEAD WRONG" or "trying to force-fit German grammatical
models onto ENGLISH".

And he doesn't apply insults like "ignorant, tyro, fat troglodyte,
pseudo-grammarian, Pogue" to Safire merely because he thought
otherwise.

Maybe there's something in there for you to learn, Spencer?

As for "standing corrected", it's by no means certain that Safire will
now start writing "All things come to he who waits". As he says, "I
kind of like the surviving niceties of language." So I fully expect
him to continue using the old, correct form "All things come to him
who waits" although possibly refraining from correcting those who
choose the more modern, "stripped of niceties" form.

Will you, Spencer, now follow your new idol Barzun and stop correcting
people who write "who" for "whom" and "like" for "as"? If so, posters
like Paul and Vince can breathe out, and the number of messages you
post can be cut by 10-20 per cent.

James
Jack Linthicum - 23 Feb 2008 12:36 GMT
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:30:20 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> James

You know that Barzun is a hundred years old and a Frenchman? Hard to
believe Hines would hold his views. And he is not even a cousin.
James Hogg - 23 Feb 2008 16:14 GMT
>> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:30:20 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>You know that Barzun is a hundred years old and a Frenchman? Hard to
>believe Hines would hold his views. And he is not even a cousin.

Let's see if I understand this.

Someone calling himself "D. Spencer Hines" writes to complain about
Gans's basic English grammar because Gans wrote "the chance of them
changing".

Someone also calling himself "D. Spencer Hines" cites in defence of
his own lax English grammar a man who says that he "would let go all
the rules" about "niceties" like that.

Is this "D. Spencer Hines" one man with a seriously split personality?
Or is it two men (cousins?) with the same name but opposing views
about the application of the rules of Engish grammar that every good
writer used to know?

We'll never know because neither of these two personalities responds
to criticism. Hines never defends himself against anything any more.
He just quotes others. He's no longer capable of arguing a case in his
own words. He's also terrified of making mistakes, so the man who used
to demonstrate his writing skills by posting long, cogent and correct
essays now rarely writes a paragraph with more than a dozen words.

How are the mighty fallen, and the instruments of grammar perished!

James
La N - 23 Feb 2008 16:26 GMT
"James Hogg" <Jas.HoggOUT@SPAM.gmail.com> wrote in message  >

> We'll never know because neither of these two personalities responds
> to criticism. Hines never defends himself against anything any more.

Has he ever?  I've just known Hines to be one of those types (and there are
a few on Usenet) who say, "I'm right, and you're wrong.  End of story."

His Gansian obsession continues to creep me out, though.

- nilita (who picked up the word "gansian" from Hines his own self)
J A - 23 Feb 2008 17:22 GMT
> March 19, 2006
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> By WILLIAM SAFIRE
> The New York Times

> In came an objection from William Rickles, M.D., of Los Angeles, who
> identified himself as "just a shrink who waits and listens to a great deal
> of wrong pronoun case usage in my well-educated,

An obvously anal retentive psychiatrist.

Hines should make an appointment.....
Nebulous - 23 Feb 2008 22:33 GMT
"J A" <jantero159@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d99b6e3a-455d-

Some Scottish Culture, courtesy of Spencer Hines.
Jottings of New York
Oh, mighty city of New York, you are wonderful to behold--
Your buildings are magnificent-- the truth be it told--
They were the only thing that seemed to arrest my eye,
Because many of them are thirteen storeys high;
And as for Central Park, it is lovely to be seen--
Especially in the summer season when its shrubberies are green
And the Burns Statue is there to be seen,
Surrounded by trees on the beautiful sward so green;
Also Shakespeare and the immortal Sir Walter Scott,
Which by Scotchmen and Englishmen will never be forgot.

There are people on the Sabbath day in thousands resort--
All lov'd, in conversation, and eager for sport;
And some of them viewing the wild beasts there,
While the joyous shouts of children does rend the air--
And also beautiful black swans, I do declare.

And there's beautiful boats to be seen there,
And joyous shouts of children does rend the air,
While the boats sail along with them o'er Lohengrin Lake,
And fare is 5 cents for children, and adults ten is all they take.

And there's also summer-house shades, and merry-go-rounds
And with the merry laughter of the children the Park resounds,
During the live-long Sabbath day
Enjoying themselves at the merry-go-round play.

Then there's the elevated railroads about five storeys high,
Which the inhabitants can hear night and day passing by;
Of, such a mass of people there daily do throng--
No less than five 100,000 daily pass along;
And all along the city you can get for five cents--
And, believe me, among the passengers there's few discontent.

And the top of the houses are mostly all flat,
And in the warm weather the people gather to chat;
Besides, on the housetops they dry their clothes;
And, also, many people all night on the housetops repose.

And numerous ships end steamboats are there to be seen,
Sailing along the East River water, which is very green--
Which is certainly a most beautiful sight
To see them sailing o'er the smooth water day and night.

And as for Brooklyn Bridge, it's a very great height,
And fills the stranger's heart with wonder at first sight;
And with all its loftiness I venture to say
It cannot surpass the new railway bridge of the Silvery Tay.

And there's also ten thousand rumsellers there--
Oh, wonderful to think of, I do declare!
To accommodate the people of New York therein,
And to encourage them to commit all sorts of sin

And on the Sabbath day ye will see many a man
Going for beer with a big tin can,
And seems proud to be seen carrying home the beer
To treat his neighbours and his family dear.

Then at night numbers of the people dance and sing,
Making the walls of their houses to ring
With their songs and dancing on Sabbath night,
Which I witnessed with disgust, and fled from the sight.

And with regard to New York and the sights I did see--
Believe me, I never saw such sights in Dundee;
And the morning I sailed from the city of New York
My heart it felt as light as a cork.
Custos Custodum - 23 Feb 2008 18:01 GMT
>March 19, 2006
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>object of _to_, and _he who_ is the subject of the verb _waits_ and is
>properly the subjective case."

Which, of course, is utter bollox. Let's hope the good doctor can
apply a little more skill and understanding to cutting up bodies than
he exhibits when dissecting sentences.
Nebulous - 23 Feb 2008 22:34 GMT
"Custos Custodum" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message

Some Scottish Culture, courtesy of Spencer Hines.
Jottings of New York
Oh, mighty city of New York, you are wonderful to behold--
Your buildings are magnificent-- the truth be it told--
They were the only thing that seemed to arrest my eye,
Because many of them are thirteen storeys high;
And as for Central Park, it is lovely to be seen--
Especially in the summer season when its shrubberies are green
And the Burns Statue is there to be seen,
Surrounded by trees on the beautiful sward so green;
Also Shakespeare and the immortal Sir Walter Scott,
Which by Scotchmen and Englishmen will never be forgot.

There are people on the Sabbath day in thousands resort--
All lov'd, in conversation, and eager for sport;
And some of them viewing the wild beasts there,
While the joyous shouts of children does rend the air--
And also beautiful black swans, I do declare.

And there's beautiful boats to be seen there,
And joyous shouts of children does rend the air,
While the boats sail along with them o'er Lohengrin Lake,
And fare is 5 cents for children, and adults ten is all they take.

And there's also summer-house shades, and merry-go-rounds
And with the merry laughter of the children the Park resounds,
During the live-long Sabbath day
Enjoying themselves at the merry-go-round play.

Then there's the elevated railroads about five storeys high,
Which the inhabitants can hear night and day passing by;
Of, such a mass of people there daily do throng--
No less than five 100,000 daily pass along;
And all along the city you can get for five cents--
And, believe me, among the passengers there's few discontent.

And the top of the houses are mostly all flat,
And in the warm weather the people gather to chat;
Besides, on the housetops they dry their clothes;
And, also, many people all night on the housetops repose.

And numerous ships end steamboats are there to be seen,
Sailing along the East River water, which is very green--
Which is certainly a most beautiful sight
To see them sailing o'er the smooth water day and night.

And as for Brooklyn Bridge, it's a very great height,
And fills the stranger's heart with wonder at first sight;
And with all its loftiness I venture to say
It cannot surpass the new railway bridge of the Silvery Tay.

And there's also ten thousand rumsellers there--
Oh, wonderful to think of, I do declare!
To accommodate the people of New York therein,
And to encourage them to commit all sorts of sin

And on the Sabbath day ye will see many a man
Going for beer with a big tin can,
And seems proud to be seen carrying home the beer
To treat his neighbours and his family dear.

Then at night numbers of the people dance and sing,
Making the walls of their houses to ring
With their songs and dancing on Sabbath night,
Which I witnessed with disgust, and fled from the sight.

And with regard to New York and the sights I did see--
Believe me, I never saw such sights in Dundee;
And the morning I sailed from the city of New York
My heart it felt as light as a cork.
 
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