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DNA  was: Re: Students Want Chance To Defend Themselves

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J A - 18 Apr 2008 23:38 GMT
"TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message
news:4808c4b2$0$22304$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

> "J A" <ae@re.com> wrote...
>>
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
>> news:LcNNj.272$v91.1393@eagle.america.net...
>>> How can anyone thoughtful think we should NOT have The Death Penalty?
>>
>> Maybe someone who has looked at post-trial DNA results in conviction
>> cases.

> Why don't you give us a cite or two for US examples in which convicts who
> had actually been executed who were later exonerated by DNA evidence?
>
> .....Waiting....

Readers will note that the idiot "TMOliver" altered the question toward
cases in which people were executed, and THEN DNA proved them innocent.

In his mind, this is supposed to prove that the justice system is accurate
enough to avoid executing the wrong person.

This is a stupid, dishonest posing of the DNA exoneration question.

There are probably a very small number of pre DNA usage
historical cases, in which an execution has occurred, that might have hinged
on DNA, and for which DNA evidence remains available, and for which there
are capable people with funding interested in pursuing the matter, after
execution.

DNA evaluations are expensive, evidence is often lost or destroyed after a
conviction or execution (sometimes
purposely) , and people in the legal profession interested in defending what
are usually indigent defendants, tend to spend their time on live
defendants, versus already dead ones.

Nowadays, in well carried out investigations and trials, attempts to
evaluate any **available** DNA evidence pertinent to a capital crime,
are obviously going to be made either during investigation, during trial, or
on appeal - before an execution.

In other words, the justice system tactitly accepts that DNA can prove a
person not guilty, in a process that otherwise would have found him falsely
guilty.

There are a number of cases where the convicted have not been executed, and
DNA evidence was brought to bear, post conviction, and exonerated them.

Preumably, they would have been executed without the use of DNA evidence.

IT IS THESE CASES THAT ARE RELEVANT TO THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE WRONG
PEOPLE EVER GET EXECUTED IN CASES WHERE DNA DOESN'T COME TO BEAR, OR HAVE IN
THE PAST WHERE THE DNA ROUTE WASN'T USED.

As most people know, post conviction DNA evidence has overturned numbers of
convictions, both death penalty and non death penalty.

Following is a relevant treatment of DNA exonerations.

From: Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University 100 Fifth
Avenue, 3rd Floor . New York, NY 10011

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php and
www.innocenceproject.org/docs/DNAExonerationFacts_WEB.pdf

Facts on Post-Conviction DNA Exonerations

There have been 215 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States.

. The first DNA exoneration took place in 1989. Exonerations have been won
in 32 states; since 2000, there have been 152 exonerations.

. 16 of the 215 people exonerated through DNA served time on death row.

. The average length of time served by exonerees is 12 years. The total
number of years served is approximately 2,640.

. The average age of exonerees at the time of their wrongful convictions was
26.

Races of the 215 exonerees:

131 African Americans
59 Caucasians
19 Latinos
1 Asian American
5 whose race is unknown

. The true suspects and/or perpetrators have been identified in 82 of the
DNA exoneration cases.

. Since 1989, there have been tens of thousands of cases where prime
suspects were identified and pursued-until DNA testing (prior to conviction)
proved that they were wrongly accused.

. In more than 25 percent of cases in a National Institute of Justice study,
suspects were excluded once DNA testing was conducted during the criminal
investigation (the study, conducted in 1995, included 10,060 cases where
testing was performed by FBI labs).

. 45 percent of exonerees have been financially compensated. 23 states, the
federal government, and the District of Columbia have passed laws to
compensate people who were wrongfully incarcerated. Awards under these
statutes vary from state to state.

. 33 percent of cases closed by the Innocence Project were closed because of
lost or missing evidence.

Leading Causes of Wrongful Convictions

These DNA exoneration cases have provided irrefutable proof that wrongful
convictions are not isolated or rare events, but arise from systemic defects
that can be precisely identified and addressed. For more than 14 years, the
Innocence Project has worked to pinpoint these trends.

Mistaken eyewitness identification testimony was a factor in 77 percent of
post-conviction DNA exoneration cases in the U.S., making it the leading
cause of these wrongful convictions. Of that 77 percent, 48 percent of cases
where race is known involved cross-racial eyewitness identification. Studies
have shown that people are less able to recognize faces of a different race
than their own. The Innocence Project has adopted a series of guidelines to
improve the reliability of eyewitness identifications. These suggested
reforms are practiced in the state of New Jersey, large cities like
Minneapolis and Seattle, and several smaller jurisdictions.

Lab error and junk science have played a role in 65 percent of wrongful
convictions.
In over half of DNA exonerations, the misapplication of forensic
disciplines-such as blood type testing, hair analysis, fingerprint analysis,
bite mark analysis, and more-has played a role in convicting the innocent.
In these cases, forensic scientists and prosecutors presented fraudulent,
exaggerated, or otherwise tainted evidence to the judge or jury which led to
the wrongful conviction. Three cases have even involved erroneous testimony
about DNA test results.

False confessions and incriminating statements lead to wrongful convictions
in 25 percent of cases. More than 350 jurisdictions now record
interrogations.

False confessions are another leading cause of wrongful convictions.
Twenty-five percent of cases involve a false confession or incriminating
statement made by the defendant. Of those cases, 35 percent were 18 or under
and/or developmentally disabled. The Innocence Project encourages police
departments to electronically record all custodial interrogations in their
entirety in order to prevent coercion and to provide an accurate record of
the proceedings. More than 350 jurisdictions have voluntarily adopted
policies to record interrogations. State supreme courts have taken action in
Alaska, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and Wisconsin.
Illinois, Maine, New Mexico, and the District of Columbia require the taping
of interrogations in homicide cases.

Snitches contribute to wrongful convictions in 15 percent of cases.
Another principal factor in wrongful convictions is the use of snitches, or
jailhouse informants. Whenever snitch testimony is used, the Innocence
Project recommends that the judge instruct the jury that most snitch
testimony is unreliable as it may be offered in return for deals, special
treatment, or the dropping of charges. Prosecutors should also reveal any
incentive the snitch might receive, and all communication between
prosecutors and snitches should be recorded. Fifteen percent of wrongful
convictions that were later overturned by DNA testing were caused in part by
snitch testimony.

Bad lawyering, something which, based on his posts, TMO is probably quite
familiar with, though he may not know it....

A few examples of which are failure to investigate, failure to call
witnesses, and the inability to prepare for trial (due to caseload or
incompetence).
J A - 18 Apr 2008 23:44 GMT
Incidentally, I'm pro death penalty, but only in cases where two criteria
are met:

1) the crime is especially bad. Mass murder, murder / rape  of children,
etc.

2) the evidence exceeds the normal conviction standard of "beyond a
reasonable doubt" to a degree that guilt is virtually certain.
Ray O'Hara - 19 Apr 2008 01:28 GMT
> Incidentally, I'm pro death penalty, but only in cases where two criteria
> are met:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 2) the evidence exceeds the normal conviction standard of "beyond a
> reasonable doubt" to a degree that guilt is virtually certain.

it would be nice if people also understood what "reasonable" means.
deemsbill@aol.com - 19 Apr 2008 03:35 GMT
> > Incidentally, I'm pro death penalty, but only in cases where two criteria
> > are met:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> it would be nice if people also understood what "reasonable" means.

  "Reasonable" is whatever a jury decides. What do I win?
Ray O'Hara - 19 Apr 2008 04:30 GMT
On Apr 18, 9:28 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote:
> "J A" <a...@re.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> it would be nice if people also understood what "reasonable" means.

  "Reasonable" is whatever a jury decides. What do I win?

and the juries decide some weird standards of reasonable.
as  the O.J. robert blake, and phil specter trials show.
deemsbill@aol.com - 19 Apr 2008 05:16 GMT
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> and the juries decide some weird standards of reasonable.
> as  the O.J. robert blake, and phil specter trials show.

  True.
gfnaame2@nospam.net - 19 Apr 2008 14:34 GMT
>On Apr 18, 9:28 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote: > "J A"
><a...@re.com> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>
>> it would be nice if people also understood what "reasonable" means.

>   "Reasonable" is whatever a jury decides. What do I win?

>and the juries decide some weird standards of reasonable.
>as  the O.J. robert blake, and phil specter trials show.

Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
Ray O'Hara - 19 Apr 2008 15:41 GMT
> >> it would be nice if people also understood what "reasonable" means.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.

yes they do idiot.
once the jury get the case its what they decide.
if the jury decides that their is a possibility space aliens dressed like
elvis could have done it then that is their definition of "reasonable" doubt
and the courts can't overturn them.
gfnaame2@nospam.net - 20 Apr 2008 08:26 GMT
Learn how the law works.  -- Juries do not decide on anything but the
facts.  They are given instructions to follow on the law, and if they
don't, its a mistrial or set aside by the judge.  Now go play right wing
idiot somewhere else.

>> >> it would be nice if people also understood what "reasonable" means.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.

>yes they do idiot.
>once the jury get the case its what they decide.
>if the jury decides that their is a possibility space aliens dressed like
>elvis could have done it then that is their definition of "reasonable"
>doubt and the courts can't overturn them.
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 02:02 GMT
> Learn how the law works.  -- Juries do not decide on anything but the
> facts.  They are given instructions to follow on the law, and if they
> don't, its a mistrial or set aside by the judge.  Now go play right wing
> idiot somewhere else.

learn how juries work.
the judge can't call a mistrial because he doesn't like a verdict neither
can he nor any  other man on the planet overturn a not guilty verdict.
.

the law may be the law, but  juries are a law unto themselves.

i've done jury duty. i know from first hand experience.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 24 Apr 2008 02:38 GMT
Stop driveling a.shole.   And run along now, you are a village idiot.  

>> Learn how the law works.  -- Juries do not decide on anything but the
>> facts.  They are given instructions to follow on the law, and if they
>> don't, its a mistrial or set aside by the judge.  Now go play right wing
>> idiot somewhere else.

> learn how juries work.
>the judge can't call a mistrial because he doesn't like a verdict neither
>can he nor any  other man on the planet overturn a not guilty verdict. ..

>the law may be the law, but  juries are a law unto themselves.

>i've done jury duty. i know from first hand experience.
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 24 Apr 2008 03:12 GMT
>   juries are a law unto themselves.

Son, your stupidity is supreme.

;-)
deemsbill@aol.com - 19 Apr 2008 15:43 GMT
On Apr 19, 9:34 am, gfnaa...@nospam.net wrote:
> In <e72dnZhZgo76-5TVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@rcn.net>, on 04/18/2008
>    at 11:26 PM, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.

  Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other.
gfnaame2@nospam.net - 20 Apr 2008 08:26 GMT
No a.shole, juries do not decide what is "reasonable."  

Now run along and play stupid somewhere else.  

In <dbabc3b2-4b22-40cf-a035-22c5f856daa9@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, on
04/19/2008
  at 07:43 AM, "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com> said:

>On Apr 19, 9:34 am, gfnaa...@nospam.net wrote:
>> In <e72dnZhZgo76-5TVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@rcn.net>, on 04/18/2008
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.

>   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other.
deemsbill@aol.com - 20 Apr 2008 14:38 GMT
> No a.shole, juries do not decide what is "reasonable."  
>
> Now run along and play stupid somewhere else.  

   It's pretty amazing how you can be so stupid about so many
things.

> In <dbabc3b2-4b22-40cf-a035-22c5f856d...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, on
> 04/19/2008
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> >> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
> >   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other.
Andrew Chaplin - 20 Apr 2008 16:16 GMT
> No a.shole, juries do not decide what is "reasonable."
>
> Now run along and play stupid somewhere else.

   It's pretty amazing how you can be so stupid about so many
things.
------------------

That each jury determines what is reasonable in each case seems to have
slipped past him unnoticed. That juries will, if they believe they must,
ignore instructions from the bench reinforces this.
Signature

Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

gfnaame2@nospam.net - 20 Apr 2008 16:28 GMT
Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
"reasonable."

If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
right wing idiot with a computer.

>> No a.shole, juries do not decide what is "reasonable."
>>
>> Now run along and play stupid somewhere else.

>    It's pretty amazing how you can be so stupid about so many things.
>------------------

>That each jury determines what is reasonable in each case seems to have
>slipped past him unnoticed. That juries will, if they believe they must,
>ignore instructions from the bench reinforces this.
Andrew Chaplin - 20 Apr 2008 16:55 GMT
> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
> states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
> "reasonable."

It is not law we are looking at, it is reasoning and critical thinking as
taught in philosphy.

Premises:
1.  In major cases, a jury is selected from the citizenry and each juror is
questioned to determine his or her fitness to sit, i.e. that he or she meets
the legal ideal of a reasonable person. (I admit that mileage will vary highly
with jurisdiction.)
2. The jury hears relevant evidence.
3. It deliberates in order to produce findings.
4. The bench may instruct the jury to find specifically one way or another.
5. The jury is not bound by the instructions and finds as it believes it must.

Conclusion: Therefore, the jury, in determining what to find, determines what
is reasonable in a case.

> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
> right wing idiot with a computer.

Two out of three is pretty good for a sleepy Sunday morning. I have a computer
and may even be an idiot -- imagine my surprise! -- but right-wing is
something I certainly am not. I am a liberal (gentle readers, please note the
lower case "L", especially if you're Canadian).
Signature

Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

D. Spencer Hines - 20 Apr 2008 17:59 GMT
In other words, a MUGWUMP -- and that's not lower case.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

> Two out of three is pretty good for a sleepy Sunday morning. I have a
> computer and may even be an idiot -- imagine my surprise! -- but
> right-wing is something I certainly am not. I am a liberal (gentle
> readers, please note the lower case "L", especially if you're Canadian).
CJ Adams - 20 Apr 2008 19:38 GMT
> In other words, a MUGWUMP -- and that's not lower case.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> right-wing is something I certainly am not. I am a liberal (gentle
>> readers, please note the lower case "L", especially if you're Canadian).

Oh dear.  DSH should realize that just because he has
illiberal views he has not been gifted with wide understanding.

Cheers
CJ Adams
small "L" liberal
Peter Skelton - 20 Apr 2008 21:21 GMT
>> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>> states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>something I certainly am not. I am a liberal (gentle readers, please note the
>lower case "L", especially if you're Canadian).

Should you desire the title and priviledges accorded to one with
a real L, it can be arranged. The way things are going you'd
probably be offered a safe seat and the shadow of a cabinet. Not
that the C's are any less thin and desperate, perhaps a bidding
war would ensue.

Peter Skelton
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 20 Apr 2008 22:12 GMT
Run along skelton, you jerk.  I responded to a statement that was wrong;
that juries decide what is responable. Now stop trying to lie about what
was said.

>>> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>>> states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>something I certainly am not. I am a liberal (gentle readers, please note the
>>lower case "L", especially if you're Canadian).

>Should you desire the title and priviledges accorded to one with a real
>L, it can be arranged. The way things are going you'd probably be offered
>a safe seat and the shadow of a cabinet. Not that the C's are any less
>thin and desperate, perhaps a bidding war would ensue.

>Peter Skelton
Peter Skelton - 20 Apr 2008 22:28 GMT
Ever noticed that people holding absurd opinions often fail to
notice humour or respond to it inappropriately?

>Run along skelton, you jerk.  I responded to a statement that was wrong;
>that juries decide what is responable. Now stop trying to lie about what
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
>>Peter Skelton
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT
This goes for you to skelton -- every word of it:

"Once again for the jackasses:

Stop your bullshit and back peddling.  You characters stated that juries
decide what is reasonable. In just those words.   The statement had
NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt -- which is
what I suggested you find for yourself in the law.  Now you characters are
here trying to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

You lost little fellows.  Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest
the next time."

>Ever noticed that people holding absurd opinions often fail to notice
>humour or respond to it inappropriately?

>>Run along skelton, you jerk.  I responded to a statement that was wrong;
>>that juries decide what is responable. Now stop trying to lie about what
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>
>>>Peter Skelton
Peter Skelton - 21 Apr 2008 12:18 GMT
My God, the man is all temper, no brains.

>This goes for you to skelton -- every word of it:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>You lost little fellows.  Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest
>the next time."

>>Ever noticed that people holding absurd opinions often fail to notice
>>humour or respond to it inappropriately?
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>>>
>>>>Peter Skelton
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 13:25 GMT
> My God, the man is all temper, no brains.

  Temper? I would've gone for sh*t.

> >This goes for you to skelton -- every word of it:
>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 21 Apr 2008 13:37 GMT
Son, your assertion that jurors define "reasonable" prove you are sh.t for brains.

Skelton too.

;-)

>>My God, the man is all temper, no brains.
>
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 13:50 GMT
Run along skelton.  You are a proven idiot here.  

>My God, the man is all temper, no brains.

>>This goes for you to skelton -- every word of it:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>You lost little fellows.  Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest
>>the next time."

>>>Ever noticed that people holding absurd opinions often fail to notice
>>>humour or respond to it inappropriately?
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>>>>
>>>>>Peter Skelton
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 01:50 GMT
you are an idiot of hinesian proportions.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 20 Apr 2008 22:12 GMT
Stop the nonsense.  I responded to a clearly stated comment that juries
decide what is reasonable. They do not.  Now stop lying about what was
said.  

>> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>> states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
>> "reasonable."

>It is not law we are looking at, it is reasoning and critical thinking as
> taught in philosphy.

>Premises:
>1.  In major cases, a jury is selected from the citizenry and each juror
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>another. 5. The jury is not bound by the instructions and finds as it
>believes it must.

>Conclusion: Therefore, the jury, in determining what to find, determines
>what  is reasonable in a case.

>> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
>> right wing idiot with a computer.

>Two out of three is pretty good for a sleepy Sunday morning. I have a
>computer  and may even be an idiot -- imagine my surprise! -- but
>right-wing is  something I certainly am not. I am a liberal (gentle
>readers, please note the  lower case "L", especially if you're Canadian).
Andrew Chaplin - 20 Apr 2008 23:07 GMT
> Stop the nonsense.  I responded to a clearly stated comment that juries
> decide what is reasonable. They do not.  Now stop lying about what was
> said.

Okay, so you're a fuckwit. Have a nice life. I hope it's not overly long, as
you seem at loose ends as to what to do with it.
Signature

Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

D. Spencer Hines - 21 Apr 2008 03:42 GMT
You are BOTH confused -- and babbling.

American Juries must decide on matters of guilt with a standard of beyond a
reasonable doubt, in some trials.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

>> Stop the nonsense.  I responded to a clearly stated comment that juries
>> decide what is reasonable. They do not.  Now stop lying about what was
>> said.
>
> Okay, so you're a fuckwit. Have a nice life. I hope it's not overly long,
> as you seem at loose ends as to what to do with it.
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 01:56 GMT
> You are BOTH confused -- and babbling.
>
> American Juries must decide on matters of guilt with a standard of beyond a
> reasonable doubt, in some trials.
>
> DSH

a standard the jury controls. american juries can decide as they wish.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 24 Apr 2008 02:21 GMT
Stop driveling a.shole.  We know what juries do, but you clearly do not.

>> You are BOTH confused -- and babbling.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> DSH

> a standard the jury controls. american juries can decide as they wish.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT
This includes you too a.shole:

Stop your bullshit and back peddling little man.  You characters stated
that juries decide what is reasonable. In just those words.   The
statement had NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
-- which is what I suggested you find for yourself. Now you characters are
here trying to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

You lost son, Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest the next
time.

>> Stop the nonsense.  I responded to a clearly stated comment that juries
>> decide what is reasonable. They do not.  Now stop lying about what was
>> said.

>Okay, so you're a fuckwit. Have a nice life. I hope it's not overly long,
>as  you seem at loose ends as to what to do with it.
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 01:56 GMT
> This includes you too a.shole:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You lost son, Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest the next
> time.

juries do. have been on juries{its actually quite interesting and folks who
dodge jury duty are making a huge mistake}
when the jury gets the case whatever they decide is the verdict.
once the foreman says "not guilty" there is nothing the state can do to
change it.
that's why O.J is a free man ever though he was clearly guilty.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 24 Apr 2008 02:21 GMT
Stop driveling a.shole.   You clearly do not understand the concept our
criminal law is based on;  evidence that supports the conclusion beyond a
reasonable doubt!

In <98-dntclnoapr5lvnz2dnuvz_jqdnz2d@rcn.net>, on 04/23/2008
  at 08:55 PM, "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> said:

>> This includes you too a.shole:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> You lost son, Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest the next
>> time.

> juries do. have been on juries{its actually quite interesting and folks
>who dodge jury duty are making a huge mistake}
>when the jury gets the case whatever they decide is the verdict. once the
>foreman says "not guilty" there is nothing the state can do to change it.
>that's why O.J is a free man ever though he was clearly guilty.
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 01:56 GMT
> Stop the nonsense.  I responded to a clearly stated comment that juries
> decide what is reasonable. They do not.  Now stop lying about what was
> said.

yes they do shithead.
instead of ducking jury duty do your duty.
maybe you'll learn something.

the jury's word is law.

if the jury decides space aliens dressed like are likely suspects then they
can rule "not guilty" then the defendent is not guilty and there is nothing
the courts can do.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 24 Apr 2008 02:21 GMT
Run along nutcase and don't come back trolling.  You're not smart enough
to pull it off a.shole.  

>> Stop the nonsense.  I responded to a clearly stated comment that juries
>> decide what is reasonable. They do not.  Now stop lying about what was
>> said.

> yes they do shithead.
>instead of ducking jury duty do your duty.
>maybe you'll learn something.

>the jury's word is law.

>if the jury decides space aliens dressed like are likely suspects then
>they can rule "not guilty" then the defendent is not guilty and there is
>nothing the courts can do.
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 01:44 GMT
> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
> states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
> "reasonable."
>
> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
> right wing idiot with a computer.

i was on a jury. when we got the case the judge became irrelevent. what we
decided was what was the result.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 24 Apr 2008 02:21 GMT
Wrong a.shole.  The jury followed the judge's instructions or it would
have been a mistrial.

Now don't come back until you have a working brain.

>> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>> states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
>> "reasonable."
>>
>> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
>> right wing idiot with a computer.

> i was on a jury. when we got the case the judge became irrelevent. what
>we decided was what was the result.
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 24 Apr 2008 03:06 GMT
>>Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>>states, as you right wing numb nuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>  i was on a jury. when we got the case the judge became irrelevent. what we
> decided was what was the result.

Son, you're partially right...you were on a jury.  1 out of 3.

Remember the start of this: "Reasonable" is whatever a jury decides.

You, the juror, could not define goofy as "reasonable".

You could not.

Simple.

;-)

btw, son, I'm sure the judge did not became irrelevant...go read your law.

(see how Mr. Letourneau educates you...the reason you lemmings keep coming back...he he he...)
gfnaame2@nospam.net - 20 Apr 2008 16:28 GMT
Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
states, as you right wing numbnuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
"reasonable."

If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
right wing idiot with a computer.

In <d57980fd-2a88-4ea9-90b8-e80d5ff890c0@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, on
04/20/2008
  at 06:38 AM, "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com> said:

>> No a.shole, juries do not decide what is "reasonable."  
>>
>> Now run along and play stupid somewhere else.  

>    It's pretty amazing how you can be so stupid about so many things.

>> In <dbabc3b2-4b22-40cf-a035-22c5f856d...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, on
>> 04/19/2008
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>> >> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
>> >   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other.
deemsbill@aol.com - 20 Apr 2008 22:56 GMT
> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
> states, as you right wing numbnuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
> "reasonable."

   You really are an idiot. I guess you're living proof that idiots
come in all persuasions. If, under the LAW, juries are instructed to
find guilt only when it's beyond a reasonable doubt....wtf do you
think they're doing?

> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
> right wing idiot with a computer.

  I may be an idiot and I have a computer.....but I'm hardly right-
wing.

> In <d57980fd-2a88-4ea9-90b8-e80d5ff89...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, on
> 04/20/2008
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> >> >> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
> >> >   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other.
Andrew Chaplin - 20 Apr 2008 23:08 GMT
> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
> states, as you right wing numbnuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
> "reasonable."

   You really are an idiot. I guess you're living proof that idiots
come in all persuasions. If, under the LAW, juries are instructed to
find guilt only when it's beyond a reasonable doubt....wtf do you
think they're doing?

> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
> right wing idiot with a computer.

  I may be an idiot and I have a computer.....but I'm hardly right-
wing.
----------------

We would seem to birds of a feather, Bill.
Signature

Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

deemsbill@aol.com - 20 Apr 2008 23:16 GMT
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> --
> Andrew Chaplin

  Do you piss off both sides of the aisle? I seem to have that
ability. The righties think I'm a liberal and the lefties think I'm
conservative.
Andrew Chaplin - 21 Apr 2008 02:09 GMT
On Apr 20, 6:08 pm, "Andrew Chaplin"
<ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> We would seem to birds of a feather, Bill.

  Do you piss off both sides of the aisle? I seem to have that
ability. The righties think I'm a liberal and the lefties think I'm
conservative.
-------------------

Yeppers.
Signature

Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

a.spencer3 - 21 Apr 2008 11:20 GMT
> On Apr 20, 6:08 pm, "Andrew Chaplin"
> <ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
> > <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:7507ac89-7b9c-4038-9562-1bb8114182d4@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

> > > Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
> > > states, as you right wing numbnuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> conservative.
> -------------------

Well, pity we poor Brits, where even Thatcher was considered Communist by
some over the Pond.

Surreyman
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 13:24 GMT
> >news:9994ef83-80ef-4c08-9eaf-ef24d3b1e058@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 20, 6:08 pm, "Andrew Chaplin"
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Surreyman

  A bit of a stretch, but it's true that many of our liberals would
be pretty conservative on your side of the pond.
William Black - 21 Apr 2008 13:31 GMT
  A bit of a stretch, but it's true that many of our liberals would
be pretty conservative on your side of the pond.

-----------------------

It has been said,  with some truth,  that your Democrat party is about the
same politically as our Tory Party.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 13:42 GMT
On Apr 21, 8:31 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> --
> William Black

  As a whole. There are some very liberal Democrats who border on
being considered Commies over here. Of course, it's a very subjective
scale....some of our more conservative types have a very broad
definition of liberal/socialist/communist. I guess the same can be
said for the very liberal...they see lots of nazis, etc.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 13:50 GMT
Run along dumbass. You lost this game.

In <0c7c4a72-08c8-4dce-8cc1-5e4b24b089b8@q1g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, on
04/21/2008
  at 05:42 AM, "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com> said:

>> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> --
>> William Black

>   As a whole. There are some very liberal Democrats who border on being
>considered Commies over here. Of course, it's a very subjective
>scale....some of our more conservative types have a very broad definition
>of liberal/socialist/communist. I guess the same can be said for the very
>liberal...they see lots of nazis, etc.
William Black - 21 Apr 2008 13:56 GMT
On Apr 21, 8:31 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> --
> William Black

  As a whole. There are some very liberal Democrats who border on
being considered Commies over here. Of course, it's a very subjective
scale....some of our more conservative types have a very broad
definition of liberal/socialist/communist. I guess the same can be
said for the very liberal...they see lots of nazis, etc.

---------------------------

I'm considered a Commie over there by some.

I'm not,  and I find their cause repellent.

But I have actually met some and talked to them.

That alone makes me suspect in some US eyes.

The last time I was in Texas I had a lot of political conversations with the
people I was staying with.  The major problem was finding a common starting
point.  The political divide was far greater than I had thought at first.
The very idea of,  for example,  an expensive disease,  is one that you just
don't find in the UK.

At the same time,  the idea that you had to apply for some sort of
permission to build what you wanted on your own property,  zoning laws not
withstanding,  or change the outside of your house, was something they also
found hard to understand.

I had problems with the lack of regulation.

Comments like "You mean you can just walk into a shop and buy a gun!"

Answered by "Nope,  round here, any supermarket."

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Jack Linthicum - 21 Apr 2008 14:59 GMT
On Apr 21, 8:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

Which brings up the gun people, who for whatever reason have Hillary
by 20 points on the subject of guns, despite her saying she hunted
duck with a rifle.
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 15:26 GMT
On Apr 21, 9:59 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Apr 21, 8:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> by 20 points on the subject of guns, despite her saying she hunted
> duck with a rifle.

  Of course....she must be a darn good shot.....
Andrew Swallow - 21 Apr 2008 18:47 GMT
[snip]

> Which brings up the gun people, who for whatever reason have Hillary
> by 20 points on the subject of guns, despite her saying she hunted
> duck with a rifle.

I just recommend she ducks.

Andrew Swallow
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 15:45 GMT
On Apr 21, 8:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> --
> William Black

   Texas isn't representative of the US...it's probably close to the
least regulated state. You can legally carry a gun into bars there
which is illegal in almost every other state. They also have very
liberal shoot-to-kill laws....pretty much anyone breaking and entering
or even trespassing at night can be fair game.
  I'm sure the US, as a whole, is much less regulated than the
UK....but a state like Massachusetts would be closer to what you're
used to.
William Black - 21 Apr 2008 15:56 GMT
On Apr 21, 8:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

   Texas isn't representative of the US...it's probably close to the
least regulated state. You can legally carry a gun into bars there
which is illegal in almost every other state. They also have very
liberal shoot-to-kill laws....pretty much anyone breaking and entering
or even trespassing at night can be fair game.
  I'm sure the US, as a whole, is much less regulated than the
UK....but a state like Massachusetts would be closer to what you're
used to.

------------------------------

Almost certainly,  but I live in the area of the UK that has the most guns
and the least population of any similar area outside the Highlands.

In most areas here there is a lot less regulation than you'll find in any
big UK city.

The only thing they're horribly strict with is planning regulations,  mainly
because the area's biggest industry is tourism.

I liked Texas.

I liked the people,  I liked the food,  I liked the shopping,  I loved the
huge houses and the vast building plots in the suburbs,  Texas has enough
room to afford urban sprawl,  I wasn't keen on the difficulties in getting a
drink (a 24 year old in our party was asked to prove her age) and I've never
been scared of people with guns.

If they could just sort out stuff like the medical insurance and the blind
hostile racism I'd consider moving there.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Jack Linthicum - 21 Apr 2008 16:01 GMT
On Apr 21, 10:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

Did you get a membership in a "club" so you could drink?
William Black - 21 Apr 2008 16:40 GMT
> On Apr 21, 10:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Did you get a membership in a "club" so you could drink?

I was staying in a place called 'Wall' near Dallas,  and it's dry.  We had a
drive to go and have a drink out anywhere.

I might add that any site in the UK with the sort of archaeological  remains
there are in Wall would be overrun with archaeologists,  but there doesn't
seem to be much of that kind of activity there,  or at least there wasn't
when I was there...

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 16:16 GMT
On Apr 21, 10:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> The only thing they're horribly strict with is planning regulations,  mainly
> because the area's biggest industry is tourism.

  I'm sure even Texas has historic districts and homeowner's
associations that tell you what colo(u)r you can paint your house,
etc.

> I liked Texas.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> drink (a 24 year old in our party was asked to prove her age) and I've never
> been scared of people with guns.

  The server was just covering his/her a.s...the server gets
charged...the establishment owner gets a warning. Where I live, it's
mandatory to show ID to buy alcohol. The reasoning is that it takes
the decision-making away from the minimum wage teenager at the cash
register.

> If they could just sort out stuff like the medical insurance

  Money talks. I've got very good insurance, but it still costs a lot
if you get the wrong condition. On the flip side, i can get treated
quickly and (hopefully) effectively.....as George Carlin said
"Somewhere in the world is the worst doctor....and someone has an
appointment wtih them tomorrow morning."

and the blind
> hostile racism I'd consider moving there.

  Is there any other kind of racism?

> --
> William Black
William Black - 21 Apr 2008 16:45 GMT
On Apr 21, 10:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

> If they could just sort out stuff like the medical insurance

  Money talks. I've got very good insurance, but it still costs a lot
if you get the wrong condition. On the flip side, i can get treated
quickly and (hopefully) effectively.....as George Carlin said
"Somewhere in the world is the worst doctor....and someone has an
appointment wtih them tomorrow morning."

---------------------

I have a real problem with a society that seems designed to pauperise the
elderly for nothing other than getting old.

------------------------

and the blind
> hostile racism I'd consider moving there.

  Is there any other kind of racism?

-------------------------

Oh yes.

There's the suble type that stops people getting jobs or getting promoted or
gets them prosecuted when someone else wouldn't be.

Texas is,  so far, the only place I've ever been where I saw someone get
shouted at in the street because they're the wrong colour.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

> --
> William Black
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 16:52 GMT
On Apr 21, 11:45 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I have a real problem with a society that seems designed to pauperise the
> elderly for nothing other than getting old.

  Uh, it's not. The elderly have pretty good insurance. The people
with the real problems are the working poor.

> ------------------------
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> There's the suble type that stops people getting jobs or getting promoted or
> gets them prosecuted when someone else wouldn't be.

  Isn't that also blind and hostile? In fact, I'd rather see "In your
face" racism....it may be stupid, but at least it's honest.

> Texas is,  so far, the only place I've ever been where I saw someone get
> shouted at in the street because they're the wrong colour.

   You haven't been to South Carolina.

> --
> William Black
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
William Black - 21 Apr 2008 17:42 GMT
On Apr 21, 11:45 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

> There's the suble type that stops people getting jobs or getting promoted
> or
> gets them prosecuted when someone else wouldn't be.

  Isn't that also blind and hostile? In fact, I'd rather see "In your
face" racism....it may be stupid, but at least it's honest.

---------------------

That's true to an extent,  but if you're only passing through as long as
people can bring themselves to be polite to your face and treat your money
the same as everyone else's (not that anyone I saw ever turned any down)
then the whole process is less painful.

I have to say that the white Texans who we were with were mortified by the
whole incident and spent the next two days apologising to the young lady
concerned.

> Texas is, so far, the only place I've ever been where I saw someone get
> shouted at in the street because they're the wrong colour.

   You haven't been to South Carolina.

-------------------------

True.

Should I have?

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

D. Spencer Hines - 21 Apr 2008 19:50 GMT
The FACTS would be far more relevant than just sly insinuations and
Texas-bashing.

DSH

> I have to say that the white Texans who we were with were mortified by the
> whole incident and spent the next two days apologising to the young lady
> concerned.
>
>> Texas is, so far, the only place I've ever been where I saw someone get
>> shouted at in the street because they're the wrong colour.
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 20:17 GMT
> The FACTS would be far more relevant than just sly insinuations and
> Texas-bashing.

   I don't think he was insinuating anything....it seemed pretty
clear to me. If you don't think it's possible to hear "spic" or
"n*gger" in Texas, you're not being very realistic.

> DSH
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >> Texas is, so far, the only place I've ever been where I saw someone get
> >> shouted at in the street because they're the wrong colour.
Fred J. McCall - 21 Apr 2008 16:10 GMT
:I had problems with the lack of regulation.
:
:Comments like "You mean you can just walk into a shop and buy a gun!"
:
:Answered by "Nope,  round here, any supermarket."

When were you there, 1924?

Signature

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
                              -- Thomas Jefferson

D. Spencer Hines - 21 Apr 2008 20:03 GMT
Wee Willie Black always likes to dribble out FACTS, if forthcoming at all.

It makes his pub-story piffle last longer -- as he hopes to build an
audience...

So, he often starts out with a roundhouse outrageous accusation -- sans ANY
facts...

Then tries to provide just BARELY enough detail to hold the interest of a
few gullible people.

Note that he hasn't even said WHEN said incident occurred, WHAT he was doing
in Texas and with WHOM he was at the TIME.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

> :I had problems with the lack of regulation.
> :
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> When were you there, 1924?
Jack Linthicum - 21 Apr 2008 20:20 GMT
> Wee Willie Black always likes to dribble out FACTS, if forthcoming at all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> > When were you there, 1924?

Just as you do every time you post, eh, Hines?
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT
Once again for the jackasses:

Stop your bullshit and back peddling.  You characters stated that juries
decide what is reasonable. In just those words.   The statement had
NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt -- which is
what I suggested you find for yourself. Now you characters are here trying
to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

You lost little fellows.  Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest
the next time.

>> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>> states, as you right wing numbnuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
>> "reasonable."

>    You really are an idiot. I guess you're living proof that idiots come
>in all persuasions. If, under the LAW, juries are instructed to find
>guilt only when it's beyond a reasonable doubt....wtf do you think
>they're doing?

>> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
>> right wing idiot with a computer.

>   I may be an idiot and I have a computer.....but I'm hardly right-
>wing.
>----------------

>We would seem to birds of a feather, Bill.
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT
Stop your bullshit and back peddling little man.  You characters stated
that juries decide what is reasonable. In just those words.   The
statement had NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
-- which is what I suggested you find for yourself. Now you characters are
here trying to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

You lost son, Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest the next
time.

In <7507ac89-7b9c-4038-9562-1bb8114182d4@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, on
04/20/2008
  at 02:56 PM, "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com> said:

>> Show us a section of LAW (you know what that is right dumbass?) that
>> states, as you right wing numbnuts claim -->that "juries" decide what is
>> "reasonable."

>    You really are an idiot. I guess you're living proof that idiots come
>in all persuasions. If, under the LAW, juries are instructed to find
>guilt only when it's beyond a reasonable doubt....wtf do you think
>they're doing?

>> If you can't then you will have proven in public that you are another
>> right wing idiot with a computer.

>   I may be an idiot and I have a computer.....but I'm hardly right-
>wing.

>> In <d57980fd-2a88-4ea9-90b8-e80d5ff89...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, on
>> 04/20/2008
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>> >> >> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
>> >> >   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other..
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 10:47 GMT
On Apr 21, 4:30 am, gfnaj...@nospam.net wrote:
> Stop your bullshit and back peddling little man.  You characters stated
> that juries decide what is reasonable. In just those words.   The
> statement had NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
> -- which is what I suggested you find for yourself. Now you characters are
> here trying to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

  If they are finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, they are
obviously defining reasonable. Or is that amount of logic and common
sense too much for you?

> You lost son, Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest the next
> time.
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> >> >> >> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
> >> >> >   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other..
gfnajnfd@nospam.net - 21 Apr 2008 13:50 GMT
Grow up son.   Juries do not decide "reasonable."  Period.  Now quit
trying to back out of the idiot statement you characters made.  

In <ae5a76d4-f03e-4cb8-a251-828f12fe6ef9@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, on
04/21/2008
  at 02:47 AM, "deemsbill@aol.com" <deemsbill@aol.com> said:

>On Apr 21, 4:30 am, gfnaj...@nospam.net wrote:
>> Stop your bullshit and back peddling little man.  You characters stated
>> that juries decide what is reasonable. In just those words.   The
>> statement had NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
>> -- which is what I suggested you find for yourself. Now you characters are
>> here trying to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

>   If they are finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, they are
>obviously defining reasonable. Or is that amount of logic and common
>sense too much for you?

>> You lost son, Now its time to shut up and learn to be honest the next
>> time.
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>> >> >> >> Wrong.  Juries do not define what "reasonable" is.
>> >> >> >   Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other..
Ray O'Hara - 24 Apr 2008 02:08 GMT
On Apr 21, 4:30 am, gfnaj...@nospam.net wrote:
> Stop your bullshit and back peddling little man. You characters stated
> that juries decide what is reasonable. In just those words. The
> statement had NOTHING to do with finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
> -- which is what I suggested you find for yourself. Now you characters are
> here trying to lie you way out of your nonsense statements.

  If they are finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, they are
obviously defining reasonable. Or is that amount of logic and common
sense too much for you?

juries have immense power in the U.S.
and trust me. stuff you are told to disregard is the stuff that most appeals
to juries.

lawyers don't tell you the facts of the case. they tell you the facts they
want you to know.
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 21 Apr 2008 04:01 GMT
> On Apr 19, 9:34 am, gfnaa...@nospam.net wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>    Uh, that's what they do every time they find one way or the other.

he he he...looks like the dumb a.s "deemsbill" is going to get his
ignorant a.s educated again by Mr. Letourneau...

Remember the start of this: "Reasonable" is whatever a jury decides.

Now dumb a.s "deemsbill" says jurors define what is "reasonable".

(and as always when caught "deemsbill" will pretend he was joking...the lying piece of sh.t)

he he he...
;-)
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 04:06 GMT
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Apr 19, 9:34 am, gfnaa...@nospam.net wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> (and as always when caught "deemsbill" will pretend he was joking...the lying piece of sh.t)

   Who said I was joking? As usual, your reading comprehension is
lacking.
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 21 Apr 2008 04:20 GMT
>>deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>     Who said I was joking? As usual, your reading comprehension is
> lacking.

Son, I'm glad you are still reading my posts, even though you said you would stop responding.
Son, you have in the recent past claimed, after caught, to be joking.
Son, "will" is future tense.

Every post is an education for this dumb a.s...a real fuckin moron...

...now the dipshit will try to divert from his original stupidity about jurors above.

he he he...no charge.
;-)
deemsbill@aol.com - 21 Apr 2008 04:26 GMT
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Son, I'm glad you are still reading my posts, even though you said you would stop responding.

  And I stopped. This is a different thread. Or is that concept too
hard for an imbecile like you?

> Son, you have in the recent past claimed, after caught, to be joking.
> Son, "will" is future tense.

  And you're wrong again. If I'm joking I'll admit it.

> Every post is an education for this dumb a.s...a real fuckin moron...
>
> ...now the dipshit will try to divert from his original stupidity about jurors above.

   Sorry to disappoint you. You'll need to find something else to
beat off about.

> he he he...no charge.
> ;-)
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 21 Apr 2008 05:31 GMT
>>deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
>    And I stopped. This is a different thread.

he he he...

whatafuckinmoron
;-)

 Or is that concept too
> hard for an imbecile like you?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>he he he...no charge.
>>;-)
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 19 Apr 2008 10:41 GMT
> Incidentally, I'm pro death penalty, but only in cases where two criteria
> are met:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 2) the evidence exceeds the normal conviction standard of "beyond a
> reasonable doubt" to a degree that guilt is virtually certain.

I would be pro death penalty, IF those 2 criteria could *always* be met.
I don't think it is possible to *always* meet #2.  Innocent people will
still get executed.
Dr. James West, Ph.D. - 19 Apr 2008 21:05 GMT
>> Incidentally, I'm pro death penalty, but only in cases where two
>> criteria are met:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I don't think it is possible to *always* meet #2.  Innocent people will
> still get executed.

Here is today's news of a man wrongly convicted of murdering a security guard.

There were not one, not two, but three eye witnesses.

Innocent Man Free After 26 Years in Prison
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4687216&page=1
Mac - 19 Apr 2008 21:41 GMT
>>> Incidentally, I'm pro death penalty, but only in cases where two
>>> criteria are met:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> I don't think it is possible to *always* meet #2.  Innocent people will
>> still get executed.
********************************************************
The alleged Ph.D.,  "James West":
>Here is today's news of a man wrongly convicted of murdering a security guard.
>
>There were not one, not two, but three eye witnesses.
>Innocent Man Free After 26 Years in Prison
>http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4687216&page=1

****************************************************
When you made the comment that there were witnesses you FORGOT to
mention the age of the witnesses AND ALSO  that their mother did not
permit them to testify and WHY....

Waiting 26 years for justice to call
         Wednesday, April 16, 2008
                 THE OREGONIAN
                          Renee Mitchell

North Portland resident Eugene Logan flies to Chicago this morning to
visit his oldest brother, who has spent the last years of his 20s, all
of his 30s and 40s and nearly half of his 50s in an Illinois
penitentiary.
But Logan, a 47-year-old disabled Army veteran, is not going to see
Alton Logan until Friday morning. That's when a hearing is scheduled
to help decide whether Alton Logan is innocent of the shooting death
of a McDonald's security guard on Chicago's South Side in January
1982.
"They're going to have to grant him a new trial," says Eugene Logan,
"or let him out this time."

Freedom hinges on the admissibility of a 26-year-old, typed, five-line
affidavit, signed by three former Illinois public defenders. At the
time, attorneys Dale Coventry and W. Jamie Kunz were tipped by the
third colleague to ask Andrew Wilson, a convicted cop killer, if he
shot the McDonald's guard.
"He smiled and kind of giggled," Kunz recalled in a "60 Minutes"
interview last month and then repeated for a more recent Associated
Press article. "He hugged himself, and said, 'Yeah, it was me.' "

Although most non-lawyers would be outraged about this obvious
miscarriage of justice, Coventry and Kunz have repeatedly insisted
that they couldn't reveal the truth without violating attorney-client
privilege. So they kept the affidavit locked in a fireproof metal box
since March 1982 and never told a soul the wrong man had been
convicted.
After Wilson's death in November from diabetes, they released the
affidavit, as Wilson had given them permission to do.
"I'm sorry I couldn't do more," Kunz told Chicago Public Radio. "I've
done all that I can. I wish you luck."

Alton Logan says he's not bitter anymore. Neither is Eugene Logan.
"I never stopped giving up hope," Alton Logan told the "60 Minutes"
interviewer Bob Simon. "I always believed that someday, someone's
going to step up and tell the truth. I just didn't know when."

If Alton Logan is cleared -- and that's still not a certainty -- the
Logan brothers will be interviewed live Monday on the "Today" show in
New York. If not, says Eugene Logan, "life is back on hold again. I'll
be getting on a plane back to Portland waiting on the next trial
date."

Rough childhood
Alton Logan was barely out of diapers and his brother Tony was still
an infant when their father was killed in 1955. Five years later,
their mother, Mary, named her third baby Eugene. The widow raised her
children with help from her mother, sister, whom the boys called Aunt
Barbara, and family friends.

The three brothers learned how to make their way in a fatherless
environment where dreams are regularly discarded amongst the shards of
broken bottles, drowned in a syringe's liquid high and hidden between
the muffled screams of women who believe pain is a natural side effect
of love's promise.
"It wasn't easy growing up in Chicago," Eugene Logan says. "You had to
fight. If you didn't know how to fight, you were in trouble."

Alton Logan -- whose family members called him by his middle name,
"Lind" -- rarely had time for his youngest brother, seven years his
junior. The last movie they saw together was "Super Fly," a 1972
box-office smash about a black man who finds that leaving behind his
life of crime is harder than he imagined. The plotlines about drug
deals, police brutality and black-on-black crime seemed like art
imitating life.

"There was a lot of notorious things going on," says Eugene Logan, who
joined the Army in '77 to avoid Chicago's mean streets. In the early
'90s, for example, a special investigation documented that police
tortured dozens of suspects from 1972 to 1991.

Alton Logan had his run-ins with police, too.
By age 28, he had served time for armed robbery.
"There was a lot of gang banging, running with the wrong people," his
brother explains. "That's what got him in trouble. He caught a case
with another guy and got caught up."
But at the time of the McDonald's shooting, Alton Logan was in bed
sleeping, relatives testified. His mother, her best friend, his
brother Tony and a family friend were at home with him.
"We already know that my brother wouldn't be stupid enough to go to a
McDonald's two blocks from his house and rob it," notes Eugene Logan
who was stationed in Italy then.

Witnesses stay silent
Two neighborhood children, ages 10 and 12, reportedly witnessed the
shooting. But they weren't allowed to testify because their mother
said she was too afraid the real shooter would retaliate, Eugene Logan
says.
So jurors found Alton Logan guilty, on the strength of three witnesses
who pointed to his picture in a police photo lineup. The Logan family
cobbled together $20,000 to pay the defense attorney. Jurors voted
10-2 for a death sentence, but without a unanimous vote, Alton Logan
got life without parole.

"This has torn our family apart," notes Eugene Logan. "Some of our
family members believe he could have done it, so it kept them from
doing what they could have been doing. All they knew was what my mom
told them. And that should have been enough."

Meanwhile, Mary Logan regularly encountered the two young witnesses
who kept silent about her son's innocence. The resentment, grief and
worry wore her down, Eugene Logan says. Eventually, the breast cancer
she had beaten eight years before returned. She died Jan. 22, 1996.

Over the years, Alton Logan, now 54, passed the time by working in the
prison kitchen. He has had a heart attack and been diagnosed with
diabetes. Tony Logan, 52, never learned to sit with his bitterness
that stews from the absence of justice for his brother. He has two
failed marriages.

Eugene Logan never fathered children and never felt settled anywhere.
He'd visit Chicago every few months and collect copies of newspaper
articles about his brother's case.
"Every time I go home, I have to go to the penitentiary," he says. "We
would eat and talk for a couple hours. It was rough leaving him."
New life in Portland
Three years ago, though, Eugene Logan was in Atlanta and met a
Portland woman with a beautiful smile. He married her a year later,
and they celebrated their second wedding anniversary on Tuesday,
tax-filing day.
"It's been a journey," Eugene Logan says, smiling.

At least once a week, Alton Logan calls his youngest brother --
collect. In between calls, a family friend, who still lives in