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History Forum / General / British History / May 2008Hillary Wins Big In West Virginia
Hillary Wins Big In West Virginia Good Show! On To Kentucky... DSH Lux et Veritas et Veritas Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine the Byrd keeps porkbarrelled. > Hillary Wins Big In West Virginia > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lux et Veritas et Veritas > Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine the > Byrd keeps porkbarrelled. so what bearing does that have on a clinton/obama contest? >> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine >> the >> Byrd keeps porkbarrelled. > > so what bearing does that have on a clinton/obama contest? She has the machine behind her. They've been campaigning for her run for years. Ohio and PA were good examples. He's had a grassroots campaign. > >> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine > >> the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > He's had a grassroots campaign. by rassroots you mean the entire media is backing obama. the press likes obama because he is a new fresh story, thats all hey care about. > "J A" <ae@re.com> wrote > > > "J A" <ae@re.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the press likes obama because he is a new fresh story, thats > all hey care about. The "machine" automaticly brings with it a considerable number of the "grassroots" party activists. These are the 'boots on the ground' Precinct workers who can do so much to swing elections. Obama activated, and drew great help from new (and of course some old) activists. The media plays a role (especially when you do not have the 'activists' willing to do the "door to door" work). One good volunteer willing to work their precinct is worth 5 to 10 times the media influence. If every precinct is covered, you often get 10 - 20% swing in the vote totals. >>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine >>> the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > He's had a grassroots campaign. Actually, I hope Obama wins, if for no other reason than that all those years the GOP and its toadies have been campaigning against Hillary will have gone to waste. Then again, I hope (but don't expect) Demorats to inhabit the White House for 50 years, so all the GOP puppetmasters will have died of old age before they can infect/infest the place again. Then maybe we can have our country back. The Democrats are too incompetent to actively destroy the place. Dan > >>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine > >>> the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Dan http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/13/AR2008051303301. html?hpid=topnews >>>>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine >>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/13/AR2008051303301. html?hpid=topnews Well, if the GOP disappears, maybe we can have a real choice, like, say, a liberal party... Dan >>>>>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine >>>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Well, if the GOP disappears, maybe we can have a real choice, like, say, >a liberal party... We don't need less choices, we need more. How about a viable Independent Party that is beholding to no one other then the American people as opposed to some stupid a.s platform & Party Bosses? Joe Lieberman's successful transition from Party Member to a true Independent who is able to vote his "True Belief's" is better then any hack who simply votes the Party line, but then again voting his "True Beliefs" is what basically got him kicked out the Party. The word "liberal" be it with an upper or lowercase "L" has become a dirty word twisted & perverted from its true meaning of "Open Minded". Today's "Liberals" are some of the most closed minded of the people I know. If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a "Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party that looks out for all of the "Rights" as outlined in the U.S. Constitution and those of each State, not just the one's they pick & chose, such as the liberals loving to ignore the Second Amendment. Or perverting the meaning of providing for the general welfare into creating a welfare state.  Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli On May 15, 10:49 am, Zomby-W...@cox.net wrote: > >>>>>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine > >>>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > -- > "Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli My brother in law is in the process of creating an Independent Party in Maryland, you are welcome to donate to it. >On May 15, 10:49 am, Zomby-W...@cox.net wrote: >> >>>>>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >My brother in law is in the process of creating an Independent Party >in Maryland, you are welcome to donate to it. I've already created my own. The Contrary Party, I don't care what the other guys are for, I'm against it. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >>On May 15, 10:49 am, Zomby-W...@cox.net wrote: >>> >>>>>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > I've already created my own. The Contrary Party, I don't care what > the other guys are for, I'm against it. Sometimes you remind me of a dry drunk just itchin' for a fight ... - nilita Hey dumbass right winger -->"States Rights" ended with the Civil War and right wing judges appointed by nixon on... >>>>>>> Half the people in that state owe their jobs to the Democratic machine >>>>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >We don't need less choices, we need more. >How about a viable Independent Party that is beholding to no one other >then the American people as opposed to some stupid a.s platform & Party >Bosses? >Joe Lieberman's successful transition from Party Member to a true >Independent who is able to vote his "True Belief's" is better then any >hack who simply votes the Party line, but then again voting his "True >Beliefs" is what basically got him kicked out the Party. >The word "liberal" be it with an upper or lowercase "L" has become a >dirty word twisted & perverted from its true meaning of "Open Minded". >Today's "Liberals" are some of the most closed minded of the people I >know. >If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >perverting the meaning of providing for the general welfare into creating >a welfare state. > Hey dumbass right winger -->"States Rights" ended with the Civil War and > right wing judges appointed by nixon on... read article 6 section 2 of the u.s. constitution. there are no and never were any states rights. Wrong. Now run along and leanr to read all of the document jackass! >> Hey dumbass right winger -->"States Rights" ended with the Civil War and >> right wing judges appointed by nixon on... >read article 6 section 2 of the u.s. constitution. >there are no and never were any states rights. > Wrong. Now run along and leanr to read all of the document jackass! This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. can you understand that. there is a reason its called the supremacy clause. its quite clear.* anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. * anything means everything, that means all federal law trump every state's law. You still don't have it. The Federal governmnet was never intended to be the *ruler -- you are making it out to be. Now run along and don't come back until you think it out. >> Wrong. Now run along and leanr to read all of the document jackass! >This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made >in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in >the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. >can you understand that. > there is a reason its called the supremacy clause. >its quite clear.* anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to >the contrary notwithstanding. * >anything means everything, that means all federal law trump every state's >law. >> Wrong. Now run along and leanr to read all of the document jackass! > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > anything means everything, that means all federal law trump every state's > law. Only Valid federal laws one of the primary reasons a law is declared unconstitutional is that it usurps a state constitutional power Vince Good Point. DSH >> there is a reason its called the supremacy clause. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Vince > >> Wrong. Now run along and leanr to read all of the document jackass! > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Vince yes it does vince, that's why secession is illegal and abortion is legal everywhere. that's why unfunded mandates like "no child left behind" is legal. >>> <gjanfdaq@nospam.net> wrote in message > news:G6_Wj.5686$GK4.3502@trndny01... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > everywhere. > that's why unfunded mandates like "no child left behind" is legal. Right none violate a states constitutional power Vince :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :perverting the meaning of providing for the general welfare into :creating a welfare state. Or perhaps perverting 'aid and comfort to the enemy' into an absolute ban on any dissent. Signature"Most people don't realize it, but ninety percent of morality is based on comfort. Incinerate hundreds of people from thirty thousand feet up and you'll sleep like a baby afterward. Kill one person with a bayonet and your dreams will never be sweet again." -- John Rain, "Rain Storm" >:If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >:"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Or perhaps perverting 'aid and comfort to the enemy' into an absolute >ban on any dissent. Dissent is all well fine & good if it is at any level other then just pissing & moaning. However, there is a very fine balance between dissent and letting the enemy know that he is at least winning the hearts & minds of the non-combatants. Had it not been for the American Press constantly saying "All is lost in Vietnam", I personally think they would have headed to the Peace table a lot sooner. They might have also thought twice about invading the South fearing we might comeback. However, given the state of American opinion, they knew they were free to do as they please without any response from us. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > given the state of American opinion, they knew they were free to do as > they please without any response from us. So do you think the Nazis had it right anyone who does not support the leader's propaganda should be killed? And that democracy is a failure? is that your point? Vince >>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > And that democracy is a failure? > is that your point? Pretty much sounds like it. Is the US headed towards controlling and/or punishing *contrarian* positions? I hope not. - nilita >>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - nilita It sounds like it is very late. No, of course not. DSH >Is the US headed towards controlling and/or punishing *contrarian* >positions? >No, of course not. Absolutely -- say you are not in favor of Hillary's ideas, opinions & policies and you are a sexist. Say the same of Obama and you're a racist. Of McCain your either a Neo-Nazi or ageist (take your pick). Regardless of your view, if you articulate it in public be prepared to be critiqued to death by those who desire group stinkin thinkin. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > It sounds like it is very late. Oops. wrong group. Well, try this.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSZTLRAFSb0 >>>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSZTLRAFSb0 Ahhhhh ... Sinatra singing ... photos of Palm Springs ... Whatever are you trying to tell me, Colonel? ... ;) - nilita, still trying to figure out way$ to pull off living a few month$ a year in PS and who *never* tires of listening to Sinatra.... > >>>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a > >>>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > - nilita, still trying to figure out way$ to pull off living a few month$ a > year in PS and who *never* tires of listening to Sinatra.... sinatra is overrated. deam martin was a much better singer and actor. although frank was perfect as nathan detroit. >>>>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > - nilita, still trying to figure out way$ to pull off living a few month$ > a year in PS and who *never* tires of listening to Sinatra.... Well, the truth is that I missent the first message, thinking I was in e-mail, so I posted the URL as I sent to the other e-mail, just because it sounded good. It was to answer a trivia question on what was Johnny Carson's favorite song. There is, somewhere a youtube of Doc Severinson leading the CBS orchestra on the David Letterman show in a tribute to Johnny, and that is the song that he conducted. But you can't beat Frank. I am a singer, and his intonation, timing, phrasing, is perfect. One may not like the man, but his sense for a song is perfect. Tony Bennett once said that once Frank sings a song. That's it. It's sung. No one else can sing that song. I did not know the photos were of Palm Springs, so that is a serendipity. >>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Pretty much sounds like it. Is the US headed towards controlling and/or >punishing *contrarian* positions? I hope not. Already is under the guise of "Political Correctness" can't be male, can't be female, can't be gay, can't be straight, can't be pro, can't be con -- all-in-all just can't be you, must be the lowest common denominator of you. Pasteurized & homogenized into all nice little round pegs in round holes. Peep your head out of said hole and be prepared to have it pounded back in. It's for the "good" of the children don't ya know. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >And that democracy is a failure? >is that your point? Point is, get with the program or get out. War is hell, it doesn't need observers looking over the shoulders of those engaging in it second guessing every move. All the press natters on about is the number of Soldiers lost. They act as if it was a video game or something. And yes, I personally believe that Lowest Common Denominator Democracy is an abysmal failure. It was working pretty good until the population realized that it could vote in leaders who would pay them off via programs from the public larder. One can only raid the communal larder so many times prior to it running dry. Those who lick in the least, continue to draw the most. I highly suspect that people like you will not be happy until the entire population is Pasteurized & Homogenized into indistinguishable little drones of Political Correct thought, deed & action. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> > Point is, get with the program or get out. all must obey the Fuerher one man one nation one people one mind HIS War is hell, it doesn't > need observers looking over the shoulders of those engaging in it > second guessing every move. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > & Homogenized into indistinguishable little drones of Political > Correct thought, deed & action. you are guilty of having and posting a thought in the New order you must be "reeducated" until you know that no thoughts are valid except the leader's Said so yourself Vince >>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Said so yourself Zomby is quite robotlike, much like a certain poster - spawn of Mr. Spock and the Tinman (were it possible) - from uma who keeps repeating the same party lines over and over and over again. Control freaks, they are. - nilita <snip> >Zomby is quite robotlike, much like a certain poster - spawn of Mr. Spock >and the Tinman (were it possible) - from uma who keeps repeating the same >party lines over and over and over again. > >Control freaks, they are. A Vinceophile are ya? So doesn't that simply make you what you just accused me of. I speak of no party line other then of some attempt at unity and movement in one unified direction -- other then the current down the sh.tter direction. I belong to no Party (other then my own), find all to be as distasteful & non-performing as the other. To me there is little to no difference between the two current primary parties within the US. In order to pander to the Voters both have moved from there normal positions to one closer in the middle. Without control, all you have is freaks. You might think it is fine & dandy to have no direction, but I prefer goals & objectives that can be modified as one moves forward & circumstances change. Simply pissing & moaning doesn't get the train on the track, or moving in any one direction. All-in-all any system that assists and provides for the lifting of its citizenry up as opposed to reducing them to the Lowest Common Denominator has got to be preferable to the herding of cats (attempting to deal with all problems without a prioritized list). Vote for me, and I'll truly set you free. Free to be what you want, assistance in getting there & the ability to keep that which you've made by the fruits of your own labors. However, unfortunately in my system -- no labor, no fruit. I'd go back to putting those who are a burden on society out on the Ice Flows. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli > <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > system -- no labor, no fruit. I'd go back to putting those who are a > burden on society out on the Ice Flows. I'm not a Vince-o-phile, but he represents the opposite to what his x-treme right wing opponents push as their agenda - near repression of freedom of speech and thought and choices. Plus he backs up his arguments with cites. And sometimes I just like, for the sake of argument, play contrarian. Sound familiar, Wolfie? If I vote for you, I hope there will be more small (p) parties. Apart from that, I have the original t-shirt that says "Don't Should On Me!" - nilita > I'm not a Vince-o-phile, but he represents the opposite to what his > x-treme right wing opponents push as their agenda - near repression of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - nilita btw, I must be pretty good at this contrarian visit. One of your debating opponents referred to you as *my* "Usenet war hero". Now you're calling me a Vince-o-phile. Maybe it just means I swing both ways ...;p - nillita >>>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >and the Tinman (were it possible) - from uma who keeps repeating the same >party lines over and over and over again. You keep bleating about the traffic from uma, yet you keep crossposting to it. Talk about "robotlike". Perhaps if you were to emulate the scarcrow and grow a brain.... >Control freaks, they are. I've got an idea. Why not tell everyone about your famous killfile again. Y'know, the one you put everyone in who says anything you dislike, and that you constantly refer to like a child who thinks they have accomplished something extra special. >>>>> :If we can't have a "true" Independent Party, then at least a >>>>> :"Constitutional" or "States Rights" Party would be in order. A party [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >one man one nation one people one mind >HIS Whether or not one must "obey" the Fuehrer (aside from it simply being a comment meant to incite) one nation one mind needs is about the only thing that can lead to any level of productivity. We have accomplished jackshit in decades because of all of the me-isms as opposed to we-isms. > War is hell, it doesn't >> need observers looking over the shoulders of those engaging in it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >you are guilty of having and posting a thought You are guilty of not having an original one. As usual you forward no alternatives, just dissent. >in the New order you must be "reeducated" until you know that no >thoughts are valid except the leader's If you aren't willing to follow your elected leader the options are pack your sh.t & split, or elect a new one. Besides it is Congress that makes the laws and I haven't seen doodle-squat from them since they were given their so-called mandate in the last election & promised change within 100-days. Easy to blame one man, even harder to blame the entire group that people like you actually thought they had anything other then their own selfish self interests at heart. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli > On Sat, 17 May 2008 20:11:06 GMT, Vincent Brannigan > If you aren't willing to follow your elected leader the options are > pack your sh.t & split, or elect a new one. ein Volk ein Reich ein Fuerher Besides it is Congress > that makes the laws and I haven't seen doodle-squat from them since with ole shrub vetoing things and his loyal bootlickers supporoting hem nothing gets done > they were given their so-called mandate in the last election & > promised change within 100-days. Easy to blame one man, even harder > to blame the entire group that people like you actually thought they > had anything other then their own selfish self interests at heart. Dont worry Ole shrub is protecting his best buds Vince > Point is, get with the program or get out. War is hell, it doesn't > need observers looking over the shoulders of those engaging in it > second guessing every move. > > All the press natters on about is the number of Soldiers lost. They > act as if it was a video game or something. no its the soldiers lost for no point. the war in iraq is just to have a war in iraq.' >> Point is, get with the program or get out. War is hell, it doesn't >> need observers looking over the shoulders of those engaging in it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >no its the soldiers lost for no point. >the war in iraq is just to have a war in iraq.' Is it, and where did you gain that pearl of wisdom? Your local media outlet, or did you have an original thought? Normally Soldiers aren't lost for no point, but in the goals & objectives assigned to them by their elected leaders -- which includes the so-called Democrats in both the Senate & Congress who got there by promising change? That wouldn't be loose change would it? Seems that is about all they are willing to come up with for Veterans. Have you been in either of the countries in which we are currently conducting operations? Do you know what their overall goal & objectives are? If not, why not. War sucks, absolutely blows chunks. People on both sides die, some in the most horrific of manners. However, currently our Military Forces are 100% made up of Volunteers. People who have taken an oath to do what is asked of them. Much more then I can say of the average American citizen with his grubby unwashed paw stuck out looking for something in return for nothing and would take out the trash even if asked nicely. Do you think the people on the Aircraft during 9/11 were lost for a point? What about those within the targets, were they lost for a point? If you simply role over & spread em when raped, do you do it the next time a rapist appears -- or do you let it be known your aren't willing to be a rape victim? You'll get no argument from me that the current hostilities were poorly planned & executed, but that has more to do with not following the plans that were in place to do such a thing then the action itself. It is simply an excellent example of when you attempt to do something on the cheap & half-assed what the expected result can be. Now why is it all the chatter from Congress has died down after the number of boots on the ground were increased? Why is it that the so-called changes that those in the last election have yet to become apparent to me or anyone else? If Congress wants/wanted the War shut-down, why are they still funding it? Why do the Generals that fully explain all the challenges being faced within the Theaters of Operations find themselves retiring? Who best to fight a "War" a General or some pissant Congress-Critter that has never even served? Why is it that Congress hasn't assigned a group of Senior Military Leaders to come up with an exit strategy? Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli you're not nearly as clever or witty as you assume yourself to be. And that's the danger we face today. DSH > However, there is a very fine balance between dissent and letting the > enemy know that he is at least winning the hearts & minds of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > given the state of American opinion, they knew they were free to do as > they pleased without any response from us. > And that's the danger we face today. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> given the state of American opinion, they knew they were free to do as >> they pleased without any response from us. nonsense What makes the United States a great Historical experiment is that it is a free country. Our belief is that that freedom gives us a strength that cannot be matched by cadres of loyalist clutching their little red books and fervently chanting that there is no dissent from the sublime thought of the leader. Authoritarians know that suppressing dissent allows them to present a unified face to the world. But that unified face is worthless. Remember how we laugh at the "spontaneous demonstrations" in authoritarian countries? It's Dolchstoss time for the Iraq war fans. Watch them whine and scream that exposing their idiocy "helps" the other side. Vince >> And that's the danger we face today. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >and fervently chanting that there is no dissent from the sublime thought >of the leader. What is "Free" jackass? Ever try to "freely" walk into an Airport, freely buy a firearm, freely earn a living by the fruits of your own labors? Nothing is freakin free. Everything we have (and then lost) was paid for by the bloods of those willing to stand up and fight for what they believe, or at least answer the call of duty from their country. >Authoritarians know that suppressing dissent allows them to present a >unified face to the world. But that unified face is worthless. Remember >how we laugh at the "spontaneous demonstrations" in authoritarian >countries? It isn't about being "Authoritarian", it is about being "Participative" -- all to many people simply do not participate. >It's Dolchstoss time for the Iraq war fans. Watch them whine and scream >that exposing their idiocy "helps" the other side. Nobody is a freakin "fan" of War, any war. People, children & small furry animals die in it. It is not a good thing for the environment as well. Therefore it must be (when engaged in) fought in the most fierce, vigorous, and brutal of manners to bring it to a swift closer with nothing other then total & complete victory. Anyone engaging in warfare without the desire & will to win is simply pissing in the wind. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >>> And that's the danger we face today. >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > what they believe, or at least answer the call of duty from their > country. another poor uneducated soul getting confused by the fact that words in English have multiple meanings When you get to fifth grade they will teach you how to understand the context of words As the Germans say Freiheit est nicht Kostenlos >> Authoritarians know that suppressing dissent allows them to present a >> unified face to the world. But that unified face is worthless. Remember [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It isn't about being "Authoritarian", it is about being > "Participative" -- all to many people simply do not participate. not what you said unless participation is slavish agreement Dissent is participation >> It's Dolchstoss time for the Iraq war fans. Watch them whine and scream >> that exposing their idiocy "helps" the other side. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > warfare without the desire & will to win is simply pissing in the > wind. nonsense no one is for murder but executiosn have lots of fans all the Bush buds thought they were going to see an execution instead they got a war , a real war surprise surprise now they want to blame anyone else Vince >>>> And that's the danger we face today. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >another poor uneducated soul getting confused by the fact that words in >English have multiple meanings And all words have a primary meaning & more appropriate other words to describe more generalized concepts. If everything "we" have was paid for by blood, how many pints have you lost? I can tell you how many I have, and it would be measured in quarts. When was the last (or first) time you ever stood up & fought for anything outside of a Usenet posting? Exactly what is it that you have ever done for your country other then dissent? >When you get to fifth grade they will teach you how to understand the >context of words Some even teach you the duties of Citizenship, or were you out-sick on that day? >As the Germans say Freiheit est nicht Kostenlos I suspect you mean "Freiheit ist nicht Kostenlos" which is exactly what I said; Freedom is not free. All part of the concept that "nothing" is free, to include Freedom. >>> Authoritarians know that suppressing dissent allows them to present a >>> unified face to the world. But that unified face is worthless. Remember [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >not what you said Exactly what I said, and what I asked you. When have you Participated in anything other then pissing & moaning (along with dissent)? >unless participation is slavish agreement > >Dissent is participation Only on the part of all of the Dissenter's participating in Dissent. Constant dissent assures nothing is accomplished. Better to head down a path & be willing to change course, direction & speed then simply walking around in circles saying everything sucks! Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli Dwight Eisenhower, Sportin' Life and Gloria Steinem. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Deus Vult >>>>> And that's the danger we face today. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > And all words have a primary meaning & more appropriate other words to > describe more generalized concepts. Dont be silly what is the primary meaning of Felt Steer block crank etc. It is simply not true that all words have a "primary" meaning Such meanings are always contextual many words are simply undefinable except in context > If everything "we" have was paid for by blood, how many pints have you > lost? I can tell you how many I have, and it would be measured in > quarts. When was the last (or first) time you ever stood up & fought > for anything outside of a Usenet posting? Exactly what is it that you > have ever done for your country other then dissent? "we" was not my word Your service and sacrifice are much appreciated, but they add nothing to your argument >> When you get to fifth grade they will teach you how to understand the >> context of words >> > Some even teach you the duties of Citizenship, or were you out-sick on > that day? I have always done my "duty" Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined except in context >> As the Germans say Freiheit est nicht Kostenlos >> > I suspect you mean "Freiheit ist nicht Kostenlos" which is exactly > what I said; Freedom is not free. sure poor tying, I'm dsylectic in both languages you cant translate kostenlos as the same as free "Freie Fahrt fur freie Burger" We all know that freedom of the press belongs to the person who owns the press > All part of the concept that "nothing" is free, to include Freedom. The laws of thermodynamics prove that nothing is free the way you use the word but so what? >>>> Authoritarians know that suppressing dissent allows them to present a >>>> unified face to the world. But that unified face is worthless. Remember [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Exactly what I said, and what I asked you. When have you Participated > in anything other then pissing & moaning (along with dissent)? Nope never went to a Nuremburg rally What you call"pissing and moaning is free speech which in our country is how you participate >> unless participation is slavish agreement >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a path & be willing to change course, direction & speed then simply > walking around in circles saying everything sucks! pointing out that the leader is taking the people over a cliff is very useful Vince Ponce wrote: > >>>>> And that's the danger we face today. > >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > > Vince except, of course, that it's not actually occurring as you claim. redc1c4, but reality & facts have never slowed you down before....... %-) Signature"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching." Army Officer's Guide >>> Only on the part of all of the Dissenter's participating in Dissent. >>> Constant dissent assures nothing is accomplished. Better to head down [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > redc1c4, > but reality & facts have never slowed you down before....... %-) He was, and I did. Remember what dumb dumb Dubya said knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html To the cliff MARCH Vince >>>> Only on the part of all of the Dissenter's participating in Dissent. >>>> Constant dissent assures nothing is accomplished. Better to head down [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > To the cliff MARCH "Mushroom cloud"???? bwaahaaahaaaaa ... - nilita (glad I'm not a lemming) >I have always done my "duty" >Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined except >in context This response of yours indicates that you have never had to perform a 'duty.' To those who have served - 'duty' is more than just a word in a dictionary. -- There can be no triumph without loss. No victory without suffering. No freedom without sacrifice. True... Brannigan has no concept at all of DUTY in the warrior context -- even though both his parents were naval officers. He obviously never learned much about the Armed Services from them. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >>I have always done my "duty" >>Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined except [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No victory without suffering. > No freedom without sacrifice. >>I have always done my "duty" >>Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined except [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >To those who have served - 'duty' is more than just a word in a >dictionary. This is so inane I bet Spencer supports it. Peter Skelton >> I have always done my "duty" >> Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined except [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > To those who have served - 'duty' is more than just a word in a > dictionary. Im sure that the Cossacks, SS, FFI, Hessians, VC, IRA and the Confederate army all thought they were doing their duty But did they have the same meaning no That was my point Vince >>> I have always done my "duty" >>> Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined except [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >That was my point Exactly. Doing your duty can mean anything from obeying someone else's orders to following your own conscience. In some situations there may be a conflict between those two and an individual has to make a moral choice. Hines is no doubt thinking of military and patriotic duty, where the whole point is to instil blind obedience in order to override the conscience of the individual for the sake of an imagined collective. James >>>> I have always done my "duty" >>>> Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > whole point is to instil blind obedience in order to override the > conscience of the individual for the sake of an imagined collective. This reminds me of when *I* was in uniform and did my duty. Okay, so it was just the Girl Guides. I recall the oath was something thus: "I promise to do my duty, to God and Queen, to help other people, and to keep the Guiding law." - nilita >>>>> I have always done my "duty" >>>>> Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >- nilita Which one of them is you? http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/halifax/images/81.jpg James >>>>>> I have always done my "duty" >>>>>> Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Which one of them is you? > http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/halifax/images/81.jpg The uniforms worn by the girls on the right side of the photo were exactly the type I wore (blue in colour). I never met the Queen but our Guiding Hall had a large portrait of her, which we routinely saluted. - nillita > > Which one of them is you? > > http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/halifax/images/81.jpg [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - nillita i didn't meet her but i've seen the queen up close. it was the peoples bi-centennial in 1976 and she was placing a wreath on the grave of the unknown redcoats in concord mass. they were the first ones killed in the american revolution and they were buried where they fell by the north river bridge. Do we know how many there were -- killed? DSH >> > Which one of them is you? >> > http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/halifax/images/81.jpg [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > bi-centennial in 1976 and she was placing a wreath on the grave of the > unknown redcoats in concord mass. > they were the first ones killed in the american revolution and they were > buried where they fell by the north river bridge. [Top posting healed] >>> > Which one of them is you? >>> > http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/halifax/images/81.jpg [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> they were the first ones killed in the american revolution and they were >> buried where they fell by the north river bridge. >Do we know how many there were -- killed? Why not consult the website? Didn't you claim that you once worked in intelligence? OK, let's spoon-feed the lazy and inept yet again: "Are there really bodies buried in the Grave of the British Soldiers? Do we know who they were? " "Yes, there are two soldiers buried in the grave. British military records indicate that there were three soldiers (all privates in the 4th Regiment) missing and presumed dead after the North Bridge fight: James Hall, Thomas Smith and Patrick Gray. One of these three men is buried in Concord center; there is a stone marker for him on Monument St. The other two are buried here." "Who wrote the poem on the British gravestone?" "They came three thousand miles and died, To keep the past upon its throne. Unheard beyond the ocean tide, Their English mother made her moan." "This is a stanza of a poem called 'Lines' by James Russell Lowell." http://www.nps.gov/mima/north-bridge-questions.htm James >>> they were the first ones killed in the american revolution and they were >>> buried where they fell by the north river bridge. [O'Hara] >> >>Do we know how many there were -- killed? [DSH] > > Why not consult the website? [Pogue Hogg] Because I'm initiating a conversation. Damn, this Pogue Hogg is dumb. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >>>> they were the first ones killed in the american revolution and they were >>>> buried where they fell by the north river bridge. [O'Hara] >>> >>>Do we know how many there were -- killed? [DSH] >> >> Why not consult the website? [Pogue Hogg] http://www.nps.gov/mima/north-bridge-questions.htm >Because I'm initiating a conversation. Silly bugger can't even spell "fishing for information". >Damn, this Pogue Hogg is dumb. You're welcome. Always glad to help the handicapped. And congratulations on not top posting. The speed with which you are learning Usenet etiquette impresses me. James > [Top posting healed] > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > http://www.nps.gov/mima/north-bridge-questions.htm This reminds me of the pop quizzes that my daddy used to give his tribe of kids. One question that made us scratch our heads was, "Who's buried in Grant's tomb?" - nilita >> [Top posting healed] >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > tribe of kids. One question that made us scratch our heads was, > "Who's buried in Grant's tomb?" He was obviously a Marxist (tendence Groucho): "A riddle relating to Grant's Tomb, popularized by Groucho Marx on his game show You Bet Your Life, is "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?" Though the proper answer is "nobody"—Grant and his wife are entombed, not buried—Groucho would usually accept just "Grant". Groucho would ask this question to contestants to ensure that they won something on his show." SignatureJohn Briggs > >> [Top posting healed] > >> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > buried-Groucho would usually accept just "Grant". Groucho would ask this > question to contestants to ensure that they won something on his show." and a lovely tomb it is. on riverside drive along the hudson just as the ground starts to rise it has a grand view down river to the main city. grant and his wife julia are in 8 ton red granite sarcophgus on a black granite pedestal. its the largest tomb in america, the park service maintains it. if you ever visit go across the street to the riverside church , rockefeller built it , he spared no expense and every window inside is tiffany made by louis comfort himself. >> [Top posting healed] >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - nilita Murray Slaughter. -- Les Cargill > Do we know how many there were -- killed? 3 their monument at the bridge reads "They came three thousand miles and died, To keep the past upon its throne. Unheard beyond the ocean tide, Their English mother made her moan" Thanks. So these were the first redcoats killed in the American Revolution -- then many more at Lexington and Concord? DSH --------------------------------------------------- >> Do we know how many there were -- killed? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Their English mother made her moan" > Thanks. > > So these were the first redcoats killed in the American Revolution -- then > many more at Lexington and Concord? yes.they were the first it was at the furthest point of advance.the light troops were left as a guard at the north bridge on the concord river.just up the road from concord ctr, maybe half a mile. >This reminds me of when *I* was in uniform and did my duty. Okay, so it was >just the Girl Guides. I recall the oath was something thus: "I promise to >do my duty, to God and Queen, to help other people, and to keep the Guiding >law." Camp-follower heh? Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli >>>> I have always done my "duty" >>>> Duty is another word that has many meanings and cannot be defined [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > whole point is to instil blind obedience in order to override the > conscience of the individual for the sake of an imagined collective. That depends on the military forces in question - the US Army is more 'Prussian' than most. SignatureJohn Briggs "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote .... > That depends on the military forces in question - the US Army is more > 'Prussian' than most. I can only conclude that your exposure to the US Army has been exceedingly brief, occupying no more than an instant on one of those rare occasions when the steel clad heels of a ceremonial detail hit the pavement simultaneously Your claim ranks among the most lame-assed silly conclusions I've ever read. I'll leave it to others here - our resident handful of former dogfaces - likely roaring with laughter - to speak to the transcendent non-Prussianism of the US Army, which for all its faults continues to rank pretty high in any accounting of demographic inclusiveness (compare its sources of commissioned junior officers with other armies, especially that of the UK as an example) and on a par with some Third World cantonments when it comes to visible "spit'n polish". About five minutes in any post or overseas duty station would likely disabuse you of what must be either simple stupidity, grotesque irrationality, or multi-dosing your morning meds. Prussian, my sweet a.s**! TMO **Although a'long about Major/O4, some ambitious officers do display occasional bouts of heel clicking, but we naval types always think of it as "Striking for O5 and above". > "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote .... > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > occasional bouts of heel clicking, but we naval types always think of it as > "Striking for O5 and above". That last is one of the problems. See my post on General Order Number 1. > "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote .... >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Prussian, my sweet a.s**! That was a factual statement, and something often commented upon. It is probably the best explanation for Abu Ghraib, for example. It is thought to be a legacy of Von Steuben - who was pretty much an imposter. SignatureJohn Briggs >> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote .... >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > probably the best explanation for Abu Ghraib, for example. It is thought > to be a legacy of Von Steuben - who was pretty much an imposter. If anything, the very example you cite, Abu Ghreib illustrates the very "non-Prussian" air of the US Army, the offenses committed by very junior NCOs apparently unsupervised and their reprehensible conduct accepted by what was a reserve unit (commanded IIRC by a woman who was a corrections officer in a state prison system). The Prussians would never have tolerated that great a departure from the "book". Have you not read any of the proceedings or statements from those involved. Von Steuben's legacy extends little farther than the 18th century parade dress and drill of the 2nd INF parading in DC. You'd be better served to spend an hour at the PX at Ford Hood, then adjourn to the O Club for Happy Hour. I suspect your delusions would recede rapidly. >>> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote .... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > "book". Have you not read any of the proceedings or statements from > those involved. And nobody believes that. > Von Steuben's legacy extends little farther than the 18th century > parade dress and drill of the 2nd INF parading in DC. You'd be > better served to spend an hour at the PX at Ford Hood, then adjourn > to the O Club for Happy Hour. I suspect your delusions would recede > rapidly. The main legacy was an unquestioning obedience of orders. I'l give a couple of examples: 1. There was the incident in Somalia, when American troops, in search of some warlord or other, landed on the roof of a UN building (the UN had made the mistake of putting a large sign saying "United Nations" outside the front door, rather than on the roof, where the Americans came in). While the inhabitants were being tied up they protested that they were UN staff. The reply was heard, "Yes, I know. But we have our orders!" 2. There was a TV documentary of the early days of Bush War II. A British Marine patrol in Umm Qasr, with camera crew in attendance, came across a US Marine patrol with two Iraqi men with their hands tied (one of them had gone out looking for his daughter, who had been shot by US forces, and had taken a friend with him.) The US Marines claimed the men were 'prisoners'. "Prisoners? That's fine, we'll take it from here... No, no, leave it to us... No, that's OK, we'll deal with them for you..." The British troops then took the men around the corner, cut off the plastic ties, apologised for their treatment, put them in a car to take them to headquarters, and arranged for a translator to sort out their query. SignatureJohn Briggs >>>> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote .... >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > them to headquarters, and arranged for a translator to sort out their > query. > 2. There was a TV documentary of the early days of Bush War II. A British > Marine patrol in Umm Qasr, with camera crew in attendance, came across a US [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ties, apologised for their treatment, put them in a car to take them to > headquarters, and arranged for a translator to sort out their query. here's a video of british troops behaving. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0lVygyEo2E >>> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote .... >>>> That depends on the military forces in question - the US Army is more [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > what was a reserve unit (commanded IIRC by a woman who was a corrections > officer in a state prison system). Might be worth looking at Gonzales' book. He was on Charlie Rose... they ran people across service lines - CIA and regular Army Intel - which had significantly different operating parameters.... He pretty clearly identified it as a management failure, albeit one aided and abetted by policy. Farging mess, in other words. Had the Administration simply stated "all captures shall be handled under Geneva", it would have never happened, and they should have, for no other reason than preventing confusion. Either that or firewall CIA and RA personel. <snip> -- Les Cargill Gonzales? DSH > Might be worth looking at Gonzales' book. He was on Charlie Rose... they > ran people across service lines - CIA and regular Army Intel - which had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Les Cargill > Gonzales? He meant Sanchez. His clutch is slipping... > DSH > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> -- >> Les Cargill Decidedly... I'll bet he thinks "they all look alike." DSH > "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message > news:fJpZj.959$v91.3415@eagle.america.net... >> Gonzales? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>> -- >>> Les Cargill > Decidedly... > > I'll bet he thinks "they all look alike." > > DSH Very rich, coming from you. I call my kids by each others' names, too. Family tradition - my Dad's done it for forty years... -- Les Cargill > Gonzales? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> -- >> Les Cargill Sanchez. -- Les Cargill :He pretty clearly identified it as a management failure, albeit one :aided and abetted by policy. Farging mess, in other words. Had :the Administration simply stated "all captures shall be handled under :Geneva", it would have never happened, and they should have, for no :other reason than preventing confusion. Either :that or firewall CIA and RA personel. That's pretty silly. The troops should have known better. There is a REQUIRED lecture that you get every year on the rules of war and such. One thing that is made plain is that it is YOUR responsibility to follow them, regardless of what people above or around you are saying or doing. The Administration doesn't need to 'state' anything for the troops to know and follow the rules. Failure to do so may indeed be a management or leadership failure, but it is a LOCAL failure. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn >:He pretty clearly identified it as a management failure, albeit one >:aided and abetted by policy. Farging mess, in other words. Had [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >follow them, regardless of what people above or around you are saying >or doing. While that is undoubtedly true, one of the jobs of leadership is to be aware of likely failure points and remind folks of their duty when necessary. >The Administration doesn't need to 'state' anything for the troops to >know and follow the rules. Failure to do so may indeed be a >management or leadership failure, but it is a LOCAL failure. The failure was widespread enough and lasted long enough that it cannot be considered local. (That does not let the troops off the hook, they knew the rules and should have followed them.) Peter Skelton > :He pretty clearly identified it as a management failure, albeit one > :aided and abetted by policy. Farging mess, in other words. Had [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's pretty silly. The troops should have known better. There is a > REQUIRED lecture that you get every year on the rules of war and such. There was more than one set of rules, and they ... "thrashed" people from job to job. > One thing that is made plain is that it is YOUR responsibility to > follow them, regardless of what people above or around you are saying > or doing. Aye. > The Administration doesn't need to 'state' anything for the troops to > know and follow the rules. Failure to do so may indeed be a > management or leadership failure, but it is a LOCAL failure. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4711079848264428297 -- Les Cargill :> |
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