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History Forum / General / British History / May 2008Hong Kong and Vietnam proved that talk to evil empire is the best solution
In the 1990s, UK was much weaker than China. However, it negotiated early with China and achieved the best for the people of Hong Kong. In the 1960s, U.S. refused to talk to the evil empire, it toppled Diem because Diem dared to start a negotiation with DRV. Then it destroyed efforts from France to neutralize Indochina. The consequences were disastrous to both sides. Had President Nixon not agreed to open the dialects to China, the Soviet, NLF, and DRV, John McCain and all POWs would never be able to go home. Third world war was not a viable option. >In the 1990s, UK was much weaker than China. Are you joking? >owever, it negotiated >early with China and achieved the best for the people of Hong Kong. They had a treaty, which was to end in 1997. Horvath@Horvath.net My T-shirt says, "This shirt is the ultimate power in the universe." > >In the 1990s, UK was much weaker than China. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > They had a treaty, which was to end in 1997. the treaty only covered the "new lands" the island itself was ceded not rented. and if the brits had given the honhgkongers full brit passports the chinese would most likely have renewed the deal. when britin only gave associate passports the chinese saw that england didn't consider them british and made their move. perfidious albion sold the people of hong kong out > In the 1990s, UK was much weaker than China. However, it negotiated > early with China and achieved the best for the people of Hong Kong. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Soviet, NLF, and DRV, John McCain and all POWs would never be able to > go home. Third world war was not a viable option. I suggest you read your history Agian.......... Hong Kong? The Uk's lease was up. Period. China did not need Negotiate anything. All the Uk did was convince the Reds that leting HK do it's own thing was in the interests of all. I.e. $$$$$$$$$$. You Vietnam conclusion is also way off. Linebacker 2 bought Hanoi to it nees and the peace table. After years of dicking arround with bombing halts & no go zones under LBJ; the North faced a guy who was taking the gloves off. Sorry both you and Obama are out to lunch.... Must be a generational thing? Kids need less soy milk, soccer & Dr, Phill and more football, Scotch & John Wayne... > > In the 1990s, UK was much weaker than China. However, it negotiated > > early with China and achieved the best for the people of Hong Kong. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > generational thing? Kids need less soy milk, soccer & Dr, Phill and more > football, Scotch & John Wayne... the least only applied to the "new territories" on the mainland the island was ceded free and clear when the brits took control.. <G> DSH >Sorry both you and Obama are out to lunch.... Must be a generational thing? >Kids need less soy milk, soccer & Dr, Phill and more football, Scotch & >John Wayne... > I suggest you read your history Agian.......... > Hong Kong? The Uk's lease was up. Period. Wrong. The lease was up only on the New Territories. Hong Kong Island was held in perpetuity  SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > > I suggest you read your history Agian.......... > > Hong Kong? The Uk's lease was up. Period. > Wrong. > The lease was up only on the New Territories. > Hong Kong Island was held in perpetuity And the Chinese were very surprised when Thatcher spoke of returning the lot. SignatureJ >> > I suggest you read your history Agian.......... >> > Hong Kong? The Uk's lease was up. Period. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And the Chinese were very surprised when Thatcher spoke of returning the > lot. They may have been surprised but nobody in the UK was. Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. As the UK had withdrawn from 'East of Suez' years before so there was no point in the fleet base and all the other defence establishments located there. What is surprising is that the British managed to extricate themselves without the locals making a fuss that had any impact back in the UK. This was probably because the colonial administration was careful to make sure that the Hong Kong assembly had very little real contact with the local population, had no real power and its elected component was tiny. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. Just as the U.K. in its Grand Form has proven to be unsustainable without the British Empire. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas >> Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. > > Just as the U.K. in its Grand Form has proven to be unsustainable without > the British Empire. Eh? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>> Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. >> >> Just as the U.K. in its Grand Form has proven to be unsustainable without >> the British Empire. > >Eh? It's the Hawaiian equivalent of pub talk. Don't bother trying to understand. James >>> Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. >> >> Just as the U.K. in its Grand Form has proven to be unsustainable >> without the British Empire. > > Eh? Don't encourage him. SignatureJohn Briggs >> Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lux et Veritas et Libertas What? The Empire was a drain on the treasury. It enriched... British occupiers individually, but the citizens of GB probably have a higher standard of living than ever under the Empire, at least in aggregate, now - post-Empire. What *started* the American Revolution were things like the Stamp Act, attempts to stem the bleeding. America was principally there as a source of timber for tall ships; that didn't work out either; the designator "tar-heel" refers to sabotage of attempts to produce ship materiel for British use in North Carolina ( in the pines). Economists, starting with Smith, have figured out the mercantilism and even gentle colonialism are a disaster, mainly for the oppressor, just as chattel slavery retarded the Antebellum South economically to enrich a few. Philip II permanently crippled Spain in a matter of years, partly by military disaster, partly by economic disaster. Empires don't work. They cost too much. -- Les Cargill But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... And Even The Bulldog Spirit Has Sadly Degenerated Into Football Hooliganism. DSH >>> Hong Kong Island was unsustainable without the New Territories. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > probably have a higher standard of living than ever under the > Empire, at least in aggregate, now - post-Empire. > But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... Why would we need one? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... > > Why would we need one? To stand up for ourselves. Bingo! DSH >>> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... >> >> Why would we need one? > > To stand up for ourselves. >>> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... >> >> Why would we need one? > > To stand up for ourselves. Who against? Iraq? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... >>> Why would we need one? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Iraq? Asbos. The Government. Education Department spies. National Health tourists. Religious fundamentalists (any religion). Quangos. Expensive non-jobs as advertised in The Guardian. Illiterate undergraduates. Terrorist colleges. Foreign drivers who drive like lemmings. Ineffective Social Services departments. The list goes on. >>>>> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... >>>> Why would we need one? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Ineffective Social Services departments. > The list goes on. Oh dear, you've been reading the Daily Mail again. Go and find a cool dark room and a nice Indian doctor will come along and give you a little jab in your arm and you can have lovely sleep. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>>>> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... >>>>> Why would we need one? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Go and find a cool dark room and a nice Indian doctor will come along and > give you a little jab in your arm and you can have lovely sleep. When I first came to live in Greece, I did so in despair of the suicidal driving and prided myself on being like all other drivers in GB - caring and considerate of other road users. Nearly six years later, I've noticed the driving in GB as as bad as anything in Greece. Either, the influx of foreigners from Eastern Europe has brought their bad driving habits with them. Or the driving among the indigenous peoples has worsened. Or they were always bad drivers and I never noticed. And that has nothing to do with the Daily Mail. From time to time, I read The Guardian, and I laugh myself silly at the pages and pages of adverts for non-jobs and heads of Quangos. That has nothing to do with the Daily Mail. I have a friend who is a Social Worker. She is the worst mother in the world because she mothers by the Social Worker code and she has bred the worst child in the world. The parents cannot go out because the ghastly child has total control over the parents. The father already has 3 decent kids from a previous marriage, yet his new wife would not listen to him. My own Social Worker from 29 years ago was as useless a piece of virgin flesh that I ever came across. And I have other tales to tell from personal experience which have nothing to do with the Daily Mail. Indeed, my doctor after my miscarriage was a beautiful Indian doctor and she did give me a jab in my arm and sent me to sleep while she cleaned out my insides and rid me of the last bits of the twins I was expecting. The BBC news tells me about the terrorist colleges. "Little Britain" made fun of Asbos with the infamous Vicky Pollard. Hell, my son arrests them every week. The same ones all the time. I read a variety of papers (whatever is available here), including the Athens News, and I see Channel 4 News, and other news channels. None of the above came from the Daily Mail, which is not, as you put it, a racist paper. You really are an ignorant little man who should open his eyes and observe what is going on in the world. Bollocks and personal attacks deleted. Nothing left... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > You really are an ignorant little man who should open his eyes and > observe what is going on in the world. Interesting that on another group, not too far away, you spend much of your time complaining about rudenes..... Pots and kettles, methinks. Or is it double standards? Lesley Robertson >> You really are an ignorant little man who should open his eyes and >> observe what is going on in the world. > > Interesting that on another group, not too far away, you spend much of > your time complaining about rudenes..... > Pots and kettles, methinks. Or is it double standards? Daily Mail reader. So it's double standards... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... > > And Even The Bulldog Spirit Has Sadly Degenerated Into Football Hooliganism. > > DSH Things are peaceful. That's good. <snip> -- Les Cargill Ah, yes... The parochial, isolationist, "Wogs begin at Calais", "Fog Over Channel; Continent Cut Off", "I cultivate my garden", Little Englanders come scurrying out of the woodwork. Cargill, "Surreyman" [Spencer] and others of that ilk. They were the ones no longer willing to Bear The Burdens Of Empire... Scruffy little ragamuffin socialists, many of them. So, their ilk forced a cut and run -- an unseemly cut and run -- after the British fiasco at Suez in 1956. They also forced the raggedy-arsed Brit retreat to Basra Airport, leaving the Southern Region of Iraq undefended and incorporating a porous border over which those Iranian IED's have been pouring and then used to kill Americans. Bad Show! DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Britannicus Traductus Sum >> But The Lion's Heart Has Gone Out Of The Brits... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Les Cargill > So, their ilk forced a cut and run -- an unseemly cut and run -- after the > British fiasco at Suez in 1956. No. That was your lot refusing to support us and the French and Israel fighting Arab expansionism. At the time the USA was paranoid about imperialism, these days the tune is slightly different... Isn't it... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > > So, their ilk forced a cut and run -- an unseemly cut and run -- after the > > British fiasco at Suez in 1956. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Isn't it... the suez crises was a fiasco and the U.S. had no business in it. and the rest of the world thought it was a waste too. although onassis made out big because of it. >> > So, their ilk forced a cut and run -- an unseemly cut and run -- after > the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and the rest of the world thought it was a waste too. > although onassis made out big because of it. That shows a lack of insight into Middle Eastern affairs that is almost as myopic as the US view at the time... These days, thank goodness, the US view is more realistic. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > >> > So, their ilk forced a cut and run -- an unseemly cut and run -- after > > the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > These days, thank goodness, the US view is more realistic. it was a stupid affair. we were right to stay out. theU.S. didn't depend on the canal that was europes affair. it was england and france that had screwed up the region to the extent that we are still paying for it today. we are not a member of the commonwealth and our interests are different. and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british invention,. > and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british > invention,. At the request of the US. SignatureJohn Briggs :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british :> invention,. : :At the request of the US. Lying hogwash. Cite? Signature"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear." -- Mark Twain > :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british > :> invention,. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Cite? I can probably find you a cite if you really want one. (BBC?) However Iraq buying yellow cake had been show to be untrue before Bush and Co mentioned it. Andrew Swallow >> :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british >> :> invention,. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Iraq buying yellow cake had been show to be untrue before Bush and Co > mentioned it. Amazing that there are *still* a few ignorant morons who don't know that - or rather don't *want* to know that. :>> :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british :>> :> invention,. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] :Amazing that there are *still* a few ignorant morons who don't know that - :or rather don't *want* to know that. So trot out your cite that documents that AT THE REQUEST OF THE UNITED STATES BRITAIN MADE UP A LIE ABOUT IRAQ TRYING TO ACQUIRE YELLOWCAKE. It's amazing the things people make up after the fact... Signature"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." -- Socrates <Snip> >>> :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british >>> :> invention,. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Amazing that there are *still* a few ignorant morons who don't know that - > or rather don't *want* to know that. That settles it for me. Adam vouches for the Yellow Cake story............... :> :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british :> :> invention,. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : :I can probably find you a cite if you really want one. If I didn't really want one, why would I have asked for one? Remember, we're looking for a cite that says that the British MADE UP THE STORY AT THE REQUEST OF THE US. :(BBC?) Biased Broadcasting Company? Got a real cite? Signature"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear." -- Mark Twain [snip] > :I can probably find you a cite if you really want one. It could have been a retorical request. > If I didn't really want one, why would I have asked for one? > > Remember, we're looking for a cite that says that the British MADE UP > THE STORY AT THE REQUEST OF THE US. "Request of the US" no Bush repeated old news rather than inventing it. Andrew Swallow :[snip] : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :> :"Request of the US" no Bush repeated old news rather than inventing it. In other words, the original claim was an outright lie, which is precisely how I characterized it. Signature"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear." -- Mark Twain Bingo! DSH > :[snip] > : [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > In other words, the original claim was an outright lie, which is > precisely how I characterized it. > > :> and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british > > :> invention,. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Andrew Swallow do so. and the BBC is as credible as any government source. <Snip> > do so. and the BBC is as credible as any government source. I thought the BBC WAS a governmental source......... > <Snip> > >> do so. and the BBC is as credible as any government source. > > I thought the BBC WAS a governmental source......... yup >> <Snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > yup Which sort of makes you wonder why the British government are always complaining about them... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>> <Snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Which sort of makes you wonder why the British government are always > complaining about them... its what politicians do. >>> <Snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Which sort of makes you wonder why the British government are always > complaining about them... We have a very similar situation here in Canada with the CBC, they tend to be left-wing types and as often as not the government currently in power gets rankled with their reporting. On the radio side, the French lot supported Quebec independence. That went over well. cheers.....Jeff >>> <Snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Which sort of makes you wonder why the British government are always > complaining about them... To mislead the rest of us, Mister Black, as to their real intent. (Whilst they snicker behind their cups of Early Grey) >>>> <Snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > To mislead the rest of us, Mister Black, as to their real intent. > (Whilst they snicker behind their cups of Early Grey) Rather than Late Grey? SignatureJohn Briggs >>>>> <Snip> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Rather than Late Grey? Perhaps Lady Grey? (Damned typos will ruin me reputation yet) >> <Snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > yup And one of England's best propaganda machines........... > > and remember the damned yellowcake story was originally a british > > invention,. > > At the request of the US. no the brits invented that story, no one is denying the the chimpenfuhrer used it in an unconcionable manner. but bush/cheney would never have been clever enough to think it up in the first place., you guys are every bit as guilty in this fool war as we are. > Ah, yes... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > They were the ones no longer willing to Bear The Burdens Of Empire... The mechanism of Empire has outlived its usefulness. I think the archaeological evidence of the utility of, say, the Mongols shows that where they went, also went prosperity. The Mongol Empire is alleged to have brought network effects that improved the lot of the conquered. This migth just be a theory, but it is apparently supported by dig evidence. But we now have less expensive mechanisms for the sort of communications and trade represented by Empire. > Scruffy little ragamuffin socialists, many of them. Being interested in economic efficiency is a remarkably *capitalist* thing. Indeed, Adam Smith's main theme was the inefficiency of Mercantilism. > So, their ilk forced a cut and run -- an unseemly cut and run -- after the > British fiasco at Suez in 1956. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bad Show! You've apparently changed channels... > DSH > > Lux et Veritas et Libertas > > Britannicus Traductus Sum <snip> -- Les Cargill http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/326.html >> I suggest you read your history Agian.......... >> Hong Kong? The Uk's lease was up. Period. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Hong Kong Island was held in perpetuity And the state of play so far as regards knowledge of the precise historical details is as follows: Pass: Ray O'Hara William Black Fail: Horvath Tiger DSH's only submission was an inane grin which does not give any indication as to whether he knew the facts or not, but he seemed to be agreeing with Tiger. Won thing that always amazes me is how he consistently chooses the wrong side. What an uncanny instinct. James > Won thing that always amazes me is how he consistently chooses the > wrong side. What an uncanny instinct. It's because, like a lot of the US right, he sees everything in terms of personalities, and has decided that some people are 'fundamentally unsound' because of their politics. The problem he runs into is that, as a general rule, the left is better at research on this sort of stuff because they don't believe that everything comes down to personalities... There's a hole in his bucket... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
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