Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
General TopicsAncient HistoryMedieval PeriodBritish HistoryWhat IfArchaeology
War History
War HistoryWorld War IIUS Civil War
HistoryKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

History Forum / General / British History / June 2008



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

McCain Backs SCOTUS Gun Decision, Obama Straddles Issue

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
D. Spencer Hines - 27 Jun 2008 07:22 GMT
No Surprises Here...

Preeminently Predictable....

McCain Is A Straight Shooter...

Whereas Obama Waffles.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-----------------------------------------------------------

McCain backs gun decision, Obama straddles issue

Jun 26, 2008

By LIZ SIDOTI

WASHINGTON (AP) - John McCain welcomed a Supreme Court decision
invalidating a District of Columbia handgun ban. Barack Obama sought to
straddle the subject by saying he favors an individual's right to bear
firearms as well as a government's right to regulate them.

Yep... Trying to be on BOTH sides of the issue. -- DSH

The hotly contentious issue surfaced in the presidential campaign Thursday
after the Supreme Court ruled that Americans have a constitutional right to
own guns and struck down the city's thirty-two-year-old ban.

McCain, the Republican presidential nominee-in-waiting, heralded the
justices' action as "a landmark victory for Second Amendment freedom."

Voicing a stance that could help him woo conservatives and libertarians,
McCain said, "This ruling does not mark the end of our struggle against
those who seek to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. We must always
remain vigilant in defense of our freedoms."

His Democratic rival, Obama, issued a more carefully worded statement
apparently aimed at both moderate voters and his liberal base. The statement
from Obama, who has long said local governments should be able to regulate
guns, did not specifically say whether Obama agreed with overturning the
specific D.C. ban. But he said Thursday's ruling "will provide much-needed
guidance to local jurisdictions across the country."

"I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of
individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for
crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that
plagues our streets through commonsense, effective safety measures," Obama
said.

Obama said his view was supported by the court's ruling that the
Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns." That
language "reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the
constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children
safe," Obama said.

Both presidential candidates endorse an individual's right to bear arms. But
they strongly differ beyond that. McCain has had a mostly conservative
record on the issue; Obama, a mostly liberal record.

Other than a few departures, McCain is largely in line with the National
Rifle Association's hardline support for gun rights. He voted against a ban
on assault-style weapons and for shielding gun-makers and dealers from civil
damage suits. But he broke with the NRA to favor requiring background checks
at gun shows and has taken heat for pushing through campaign finance
legislation that gun-rights advocates say muzzled their free speech.

Obama has voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to lawsuits. He also
took largely liberal positions on gun laws while in the Illinois
Legislature, including backing a ban on all forms of semiautomatic weapons
and tighter state restrictions generally on firearms.

Campaigning in Cincinnati, McCain claimed Obama has reversed course on the
issue. Obama told FOX Business Network he's been consistent.

Hilarious!  CONSISTENTLY WAFFLING. -- DSH

The Democrat's campaign said a spokesman made an "inartful" statement when
he said in November that Obama believed the D.C. law was constitutional. But
Obama himself did not correct a debate moderator who repeated the position
in February.

"You said in Idaho recently, I'm quoting here, 'I have no intention of
taking away folks' guns.' But you support the D.C. handgun ban and you've
said that it's constitutional," said the moderator, Leon Harris of
Washington television station WJLA. Obama nodded as Harris spoke and said:
"Right, right."

"How can you reconcile those two different positions?" Harris asked.

Obama answered that the United States has conflicting traditions of gun
ownership and street violence that results from illegal handgun use. "So,
there is nothing wrong, I think, with a community saying we are going to
take those illegal handguns off the streets," Obama said.

The Obama campaign argued that Obama was simply acknowledging the question
by saying "right."

DODGE... -- DSH

In other instances, Obama refused to articulate a position when asked
whether he thought the D.C. ban was constitutional.

The campaign would not answer directly Thursday when asked whether the
candidate agreed with the court that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional,
simply pointing back to his statement.
torresD - 27 Jun 2008 08:11 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jun/26/afghanistan.pakistan.us.troops
torresD - 27 Jun 2008 08:11 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1
James Hogg - 27 Jun 2008 09:22 GMT
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1

Whatever John McAncient thinks, the Supreme Court decision must come
as a relief and encouragement to states like Iran and North Korea
which wish to exercise their constitutional right to arm for their own
defence.

James
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 10:57 GMT
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections200...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> James

May I suggest that by ignoring the "militia" introduction, this
"decision" is meaningless?
Don T - 27 Jun 2008 13:18 GMT
>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1
>
> Whatever John McAncient thinks, the Supreme Court decision must come
> as a relief and encouragement to states like Iran and North Korea
> which wish to exercise their constitutional right to arm for their own
> defence.

Which constitution would that be?

Signature

Don Thompson

Stolen from Dan:  "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
and that makes me an expert. "

There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe

It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain

> James
James Hogg - 27 Jun 2008 13:38 GMT
>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Which constitution would that be?

You mean constitutionS in the plural. Each country has its own.

Here, for example, is Article 6 of the North Korean constitution:

"The State shall implement the line of self-reliant defence, the
import of which is to arm the entire people, fortify the country,
train the army into a cadre army and modernize the army on the basis
of equipping the army and the people politically and ideologically."

Talk about a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of
a free State!

And here's Article 152 of the Iranian constitution:

"The foreign policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran is based upon the
rejection of all forms of domination, both the exertion of it and
submission to it, the preservation of the independence of the country
in all respects and its territorial integrity, the defence of the
rights of all Muslims, non-alignment with respect to the hegemonic
superpowers, and the maintenance of mutually peaceful relations with
all non-belligerent States."

That last bit would seem to rule out peaceful relations with
John "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" McCain.

James
torresD - 29 Jun 2008 00:16 GMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0
Neil B. - 27 Jun 2008 17:37 GMT
> No Surprises Here...
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> firearms as well as a government's right to regulate them.
>  ...

I support that basic right of private firearm ownership as well. But the
right to have or do something doesn't mean there can't be any regulation
at all. Look at speech: Guaranteed by the First Amendment, but e.g. you
still can't release copyrighted material, engage in specified forms of
slander and libel, or shout "Fire" in a theater. Maybe carrying a gun into
a theater would be like shouting "Fire"? Note for example that the right
to "bear" arms directly doesn't indicate an associated right to secrecy
(like, no registration) nor to concealed carry. (I'm personally OK with
the latter, but there is no persuasive Constitutional right to be able to
do so.) Remember also that since the direct wording of the 2nd Amendment
was unclear as to implications, SCOTUS had to rely on implied intentions
etc. I reasonably figure that just doesn't carry the same weight as a
direct statement about rights.

Obama, imperfect as he is, is just acknowledging legal realism IMHO. It
isn't straight versus waffling here, but more like simplemindedness being
superseded by higher-res thought.

Note also that given a desire for "strict construction", wouldn't that
doctrine also apply to the type of things then extant when words like
"arms" were used? It could well be argued that e.g. machine guns are too
advanced to be anything that the Founding Fathers would have wanted to
include in the sort of "arms" that they apparently wanted to protect
private ownership of. (Sure, I have to imagine their thoughts, but then so
does any follower of "original intent" as well.)

As for McCain, he has recently flip-flopped on so many issues to appeal to
the Republican base that he just doesn't deserve the same regard he got in
say 2000.

BTW, McCain has admitted he is computer "illiterate":

http://youtube.com/watch?v=--mMyoDZGYk&feature=related

"Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
assistance I can get."
Can a person like that run a nation and be an effective CIC in a
technological world where IT matters a lot?
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 17:59 GMT
> > No Surprises Here...
>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> Can a person like that run a nation and be an effective CIC in a
> technological world where IT matters a lot?

Yes, I suspect Scalia will learn to regret his dissing the militia
phrase
Bert Hyman - 27 Jun 2008 18:25 GMT
> Yes, I suspect Scalia will learn to regret his dissing the militia
> phrase

Why?

Signature

Bert Hyman    St. Paul, MN    bert@iphouse.com

Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 18:54 GMT
> Innews:44e25773-4d28-4558-b036-5b8c1f0d3473@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> --
> Bert Hyman      St. Paul, MN    b...@iphouse.com

You leave open a challenge by someone who might agree but can argue
that the decision was made in a very narrow circumstance. Cf
Washington, DC is not a state and therefore does not have the rights
from the Tenth Amendment:

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Note

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people."
tankfixer - 28 Jun 2008 03:36 GMT
In article <8ad5139f-b6a4-43ad-b59d-bfc0bfa5acba@
8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthicum@earthlink.net says...
> > Innews:44e25773-4d28-4558-b036-5b8c1f0d3473@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
> respectively, or to the people."

"or to the people"

I'd say the residents have the same rights as those of any state.

Signature

"Oh Norman, listen!  The loons are calling!"
  - Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

William Black - 27 Jun 2008 18:04 GMT
> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
> assistance I can get."
> Can a person like that run a nation and be an effective CIC in a
> technological world where IT matters a lot?

Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net
when he became Prime Minister.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

La N - 27 Jun 2008 18:41 GMT
>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net
> when he became Prime Minister.

Former US VP Al Gore apparently invented the internet. He trumps all.

- nilita
Neil B. - 27 Jun 2008 19:11 GMT
>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> - nilita
Al Gore really did, as a Senator, move the Internet from a narrow
military-government network to the "Web" that we know, use, and mostly
love. His actual quote was:
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in
creating the Internet."
The "Internet" he referred to was the WWW in question, since the original
ARPANET was of course already in existence as a limited access network.
Gore almost certainly coined the famous phrase "Information Superhighway".
See from Snopes anti-rumor site below, also Wikipedia:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet:

Scholars generally agree,[citation needed] however, that the turning point
for the World Wide Web began with the introduction[33] of the Mosaic web
browser[34] in 1993, a graphical browser developed by a team at the
National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of
Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (NCSA-UIUC), led by Marc Andreessen. Funding
for Mosaic came from the High-Performance Computing and Communications
Initiative, a funding program initiated by then-Senator Al Gore's High
Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 also known as the Gore
Bill .[35] Indeed, Mosaic's graphical interface soon became more popular
than Gopher, which at the time was primarily text-based, and the WWW
became the preferred interface for accessing the Internet. (Gore's
reference to his role in "creating the Internet", however, was ridiculed
in his presidential election campaign. See the full article Al Gore and
information technology).

Also, http://www.perkel.com/politics/gore/internet.htm:

But the real question is what, if anything, did Gore actually do to create
the modern Internet? According to Vincent Cerf, a senior vice president
with MCI Worldcom who's been called the Father of the Internet, "The
Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong
support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President in
his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."

The inventor of the Mosaic Browser, Marc Andreesen, credits Gore with
making his work possible. He received a federal grant through Gore's High
Performance Computing Act. The University of Pennsylvania's Dave Ferber
says that without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."

Joseph E. Traub, a computer science professor at Columbia University,
claims that Gore "was perhaps the first political leader to grasp the
importance of networking the country. Could we perhaps see an end to cheap
shots from politicians and pundits about inventing the Internet?"
Neil B. - 27 Jun 2008 19:12 GMT
>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net
> when he became Prime Minister.

I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader.
William Black - 27 Jun 2008 19:31 GMT
>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
> I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader.

He was a sight better than GW Bush...

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

La N - 27 Jun 2008 19:49 GMT
>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> He was a sight better than GW Bush...

How could you tell? Seriously.

- nilita
William Black - 27 Jun 2008 19:59 GMT
>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> How could you tell? Seriously.

Better public speaker,  better at live interviews,  better at party
discipline.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

La N - 27 Jun 2008 20:07 GMT
>>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Better public speaker,  better at live interviews,  better at party
> discipline.

What was his popularity rating when he left, I wonder, and how it will
compare to GWB's when he leaves office.

It's just curiosity on my part, knowing that the naysayers will say that
popularity has little to nothing to do with leadership skills.

- nilita
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 20:49 GMT
> >>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
> >>>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> - nilita

One popularity rating does count, fewer people are admitting to being
Republicans.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/OpEds/Read.aspx?guid=75e4dfaf-af37-489f
-b3f8-fc16fcc3518b

Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:33 GMT
<snip>
>One popularity rating does count, fewer people are admitting to being
>Republicans.
>
>http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/OpEds/Read.aspx?guid=75e4dfaf-af37-489f
-b3f8-fc16fcc3518b

More people should not "admit" to being either, nor should they
join-up.  They should stay open minded & vote for the absolute best
person to do the job, not a Party's Platform.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:31 GMT
<snip>

>What was his popularity rating when he left, I wonder, and how it will
>compare to GWB's when he leaves office.
>
>It's just curiosity on my part, knowing that the naysayers will say that
>popularity has little to nothing to do with leadership skills.

Being POTUS isn't really a popularity contest.  Getting elected &
staying elected might be, but not doing the job.

On an Episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit (I love that show), they
showed how by simply asking the polling question a certain way you can
always get the answer you want.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:29 GMT
>>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Better public speaker,  better at live interviews,  better at party
>discipline.

Tony Blair threw S&M Parties?  Always did think the Brit's enjoyed a
naughty spank now & again.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

William Black - 28 Jun 2008 10:55 GMT
>>>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>>>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Tony Blair threw S&M Parties?  Always did think the Brit's enjoyed a
> naughty spank now & again.

If you don't understand the words then I'm afraid you're not fit to take
part in the debate...

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Zombywoof - 28 Jun 2008 15:35 GMT
<snip>

>>>Better public speaker,  better at live interviews,  better at party
>>>discipline.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>If you don't understand the words then I'm afraid you're not fit to take
>part in the debate...

I guess along with their naughty little spank, they don't like humor
either.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

D. Spencer Hines - 28 Jun 2008 03:13 GMT
Small beer...

We must await The Verdict Of History...

50 Years from now we may be able to fairly evaluate Blair and Bush as PM and
President.

Not Now...

Far Too Premature.

We're just becoming able to do it with John F. Kennedy today.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-------------------------------------------

>>>> I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader. [sop]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Better public speaker,  better at live interviews,  better at party
> discipline.
John Briggs - 28 Jun 2008 21:58 GMT
>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all
>>>>> the assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> How could you tell? Seriously.

He knew what he was doing - which makes his crime worse, of course.
Signature

John Briggs

Zombywoof - 29 Jun 2008 18:47 GMT
>>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all
>>>>>> the assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>He knew what he was doing - which makes his crime worse, of course.

That is a really interesting point.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:28 GMT
>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the
>>>> assistance I can get."
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>He was a sight better than GW Bush...

For England or America?
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

Andrew Swallow - 28 Jun 2008 23:26 GMT
> "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
[snip]

>> Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net
>> when he became Prime Minister.
>>
> I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader.

Tony Blair was not there to be a leader he was there to ensure that
no one else took command, whilst entertaining everyone.  A HQ that
countermands the orders of the officers on the spot can create a
big mess.

Andrew Swallow
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.