McCain Backs SCOTUS Gun Decision, Obama Straddles Issue
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D. Spencer Hines - 27 Jun 2008 07:22 GMT No Surprises Here...
Preeminently Predictable....
McCain Is A Straight Shooter...
Whereas Obama Waffles.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas -----------------------------------------------------------
McCain backs gun decision, Obama straddles issue
Jun 26, 2008
By LIZ SIDOTI
WASHINGTON (AP) - John McCain welcomed a Supreme Court decision invalidating a District of Columbia handgun ban. Barack Obama sought to straddle the subject by saying he favors an individual's right to bear firearms as well as a government's right to regulate them.
Yep... Trying to be on BOTH sides of the issue. -- DSH
The hotly contentious issue surfaced in the presidential campaign Thursday after the Supreme Court ruled that Americans have a constitutional right to own guns and struck down the city's thirty-two-year-old ban.
McCain, the Republican presidential nominee-in-waiting, heralded the justices' action as "a landmark victory for Second Amendment freedom."
Voicing a stance that could help him woo conservatives and libertarians, McCain said, "This ruling does not mark the end of our struggle against those who seek to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. We must always remain vigilant in defense of our freedoms."
His Democratic rival, Obama, issued a more carefully worded statement apparently aimed at both moderate voters and his liberal base. The statement from Obama, who has long said local governments should be able to regulate guns, did not specifically say whether Obama agreed with overturning the specific D.C. ban. But he said Thursday's ruling "will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country."
"I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through commonsense, effective safety measures," Obama said.
Obama said his view was supported by the court's ruling that the Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns." That language "reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe," Obama said.
Both presidential candidates endorse an individual's right to bear arms. But they strongly differ beyond that. McCain has had a mostly conservative record on the issue; Obama, a mostly liberal record.
Other than a few departures, McCain is largely in line with the National Rifle Association's hardline support for gun rights. He voted against a ban on assault-style weapons and for shielding gun-makers and dealers from civil damage suits. But he broke with the NRA to favor requiring background checks at gun shows and has taken heat for pushing through campaign finance legislation that gun-rights advocates say muzzled their free speech.
Obama has voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to lawsuits. He also took largely liberal positions on gun laws while in the Illinois Legislature, including backing a ban on all forms of semiautomatic weapons and tighter state restrictions generally on firearms.
Campaigning in Cincinnati, McCain claimed Obama has reversed course on the issue. Obama told FOX Business Network he's been consistent.
Hilarious! CONSISTENTLY WAFFLING. -- DSH
The Democrat's campaign said a spokesman made an "inartful" statement when he said in November that Obama believed the D.C. law was constitutional. But Obama himself did not correct a debate moderator who repeated the position in February.
"You said in Idaho recently, I'm quoting here, 'I have no intention of taking away folks' guns.' But you support the D.C. handgun ban and you've said that it's constitutional," said the moderator, Leon Harris of Washington television station WJLA. Obama nodded as Harris spoke and said: "Right, right."
"How can you reconcile those two different positions?" Harris asked.
Obama answered that the United States has conflicting traditions of gun ownership and street violence that results from illegal handgun use. "So, there is nothing wrong, I think, with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets," Obama said.
The Obama campaign argued that Obama was simply acknowledging the question by saying "right."
DODGE... -- DSH
In other instances, Obama refused to articulate a position when asked whether he thought the D.C. ban was constitutional.
The campaign would not answer directly Thursday when asked whether the candidate agreed with the court that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional, simply pointing back to his statement.
torresD - 27 Jun 2008 08:11 GMT http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jun/26/afghanistan.pakistan.us.troops
torresD - 27 Jun 2008 08:11 GMT http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1
James Hogg - 27 Jun 2008 09:22 GMT >http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1 Whatever John McAncient thinks, the Supreme Court decision must come as a relief and encouragement to states like Iran and North Korea which wish to exercise their constitutional right to arm for their own defence.
James
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 10:57 GMT > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections200... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > James May I suggest that by ignoring the "militia" introduction, this "decision" is meaningless?
Don T - 27 Jun 2008 13:18 GMT >>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1 > > Whatever John McAncient thinks, the Supreme Court decision must come > as a relief and encouragement to states like Iran and North Korea > which wish to exercise their constitutional right to arm for their own > defence. Which constitution would that be?
 Signature Don Thompson
Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, and that makes me an expert. "
There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. ~Goethe
It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom; it is another sight finer to fight for another man's. ~Mark Twain
> James James Hogg - 27 Jun 2008 13:38 GMT >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008?commentpage=1 >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Which constitution would that be? You mean constitutionS in the plural. Each country has its own.
Here, for example, is Article 6 of the North Korean constitution:
"The State shall implement the line of self-reliant defence, the import of which is to arm the entire people, fortify the country, train the army into a cadre army and modernize the army on the basis of equipping the army and the people politically and ideologically."
Talk about a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State!
And here's Article 152 of the Iranian constitution:
"The foreign policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran is based upon the rejection of all forms of domination, both the exertion of it and submission to it, the preservation of the independence of the country in all respects and its territorial integrity, the defence of the rights of all Muslims, non-alignment with respect to the hegemonic superpowers, and the maintenance of mutually peaceful relations with all non-belligerent States."
That last bit would seem to rule out peaceful relations with John "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" McCain.
James
torresD - 29 Jun 2008 00:16 GMT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0
Neil B. - 27 Jun 2008 17:37 GMT > No Surprises Here... > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > firearms as well as a government's right to regulate them. > ... I support that basic right of private firearm ownership as well. But the right to have or do something doesn't mean there can't be any regulation at all. Look at speech: Guaranteed by the First Amendment, but e.g. you still can't release copyrighted material, engage in specified forms of slander and libel, or shout "Fire" in a theater. Maybe carrying a gun into a theater would be like shouting "Fire"? Note for example that the right to "bear" arms directly doesn't indicate an associated right to secrecy (like, no registration) nor to concealed carry. (I'm personally OK with the latter, but there is no persuasive Constitutional right to be able to do so.) Remember also that since the direct wording of the 2nd Amendment was unclear as to implications, SCOTUS had to rely on implied intentions etc. I reasonably figure that just doesn't carry the same weight as a direct statement about rights.
Obama, imperfect as he is, is just acknowledging legal realism IMHO. It isn't straight versus waffling here, but more like simplemindedness being superseded by higher-res thought.
Note also that given a desire for "strict construction", wouldn't that doctrine also apply to the type of things then extant when words like "arms" were used? It could well be argued that e.g. machine guns are too advanced to be anything that the Founding Fathers would have wanted to include in the sort of "arms" that they apparently wanted to protect private ownership of. (Sure, I have to imagine their thoughts, but then so does any follower of "original intent" as well.)
As for McCain, he has recently flip-flopped on so many issues to appeal to the Republican base that he just doesn't deserve the same regard he got in say 2000.
BTW, McCain has admitted he is computer "illiterate":
http://youtube.com/watch?v=--mMyoDZGYk&feature=related
"Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the assistance I can get." Can a person like that run a nation and be an effective CIC in a technological world where IT matters a lot?
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 17:59 GMT > > No Surprises Here... > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > Can a person like that run a nation and be an effective CIC in a > technological world where IT matters a lot? Yes, I suspect Scalia will learn to regret his dissing the militia phrase
Bert Hyman - 27 Jun 2008 18:25 GMT > Yes, I suspect Scalia will learn to regret his dissing the militia > phrase Why?
 Signature Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 18:54 GMT > Innews:44e25773-4d28-4558-b036-5b8c1f0d3473@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN b...@iphouse.com You leave open a challenge by someone who might agree but can argue that the decision was made in a very narrow circumstance. Cf Washington, DC is not a state and therefore does not have the rights from the Tenth Amendment:
Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
tankfixer - 28 Jun 2008 03:36 GMT In article <8ad5139f-b6a4-43ad-b59d-bfc0bfa5acba@ 8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthicum@earthlink.net says...
> > Innews:44e25773-4d28-4558-b036-5b8c1f0d3473@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States > respectively, or to the people." "or to the people"
I'd say the residents have the same rights as those of any state.
 Signature "Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!" - Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"
William Black - 27 Jun 2008 18:04 GMT > "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the > assistance I can get." > Can a person like that run a nation and be an effective CIC in a > technological world where IT matters a lot? Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net when he became Prime Minister.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
La N - 27 Jun 2008 18:41 GMT >> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net > when he became Prime Minister. Former US VP Al Gore apparently invented the internet. He trumps all.
- nilita
Neil B. - 27 Jun 2008 19:11 GMT >>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - nilita Al Gore really did, as a Senator, move the Internet from a narrow military-government network to the "Web" that we know, use, and mostly love. His actual quote was: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." The "Internet" he referred to was the WWW in question, since the original ARPANET was of course already in existence as a limited access network. Gore almost certainly coined the famous phrase "Information Superhighway". See from Snopes anti-rumor site below, also Wikipedia:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet:
Scholars generally agree,[citation needed] however, that the turning point for the World Wide Web began with the introduction[33] of the Mosaic web browser[34] in 1993, a graphical browser developed by a team at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (NCSA-UIUC), led by Marc Andreessen. Funding for Mosaic came from the High-Performance Computing and Communications Initiative, a funding program initiated by then-Senator Al Gore's High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 also known as the Gore Bill .[35] Indeed, Mosaic's graphical interface soon became more popular than Gopher, which at the time was primarily text-based, and the WWW became the preferred interface for accessing the Internet. (Gore's reference to his role in "creating the Internet", however, was ridiculed in his presidential election campaign. See the full article Al Gore and information technology).
Also, http://www.perkel.com/politics/gore/internet.htm:
But the real question is what, if anything, did Gore actually do to create the modern Internet? According to Vincent Cerf, a senior vice president with MCI Worldcom who's been called the Father of the Internet, "The Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President in his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."
The inventor of the Mosaic Browser, Marc Andreesen, credits Gore with making his work possible. He received a federal grant through Gore's High Performance Computing Act. The University of Pennsylvania's Dave Ferber says that without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."
Joseph E. Traub, a computer science professor at Columbia University, claims that Gore "was perhaps the first political leader to grasp the importance of networking the country. Could we perhaps see an end to cheap shots from politicians and pundits about inventing the Internet?"
Neil B. - 27 Jun 2008 19:12 GMT >> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net > when he became Prime Minister. I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader.
William Black - 27 Jun 2008 19:31 GMT >>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader. He was a sight better than GW Bush...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
La N - 27 Jun 2008 19:49 GMT >>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > He was a sight better than GW Bush... How could you tell? Seriously.
- nilita
William Black - 27 Jun 2008 19:59 GMT >>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > How could you tell? Seriously. Better public speaker, better at live interviews, better at party discipline.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
La N - 27 Jun 2008 20:07 GMT >>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>>>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Better public speaker, better at live interviews, better at party > discipline. What was his popularity rating when he left, I wonder, and how it will compare to GWB's when he leaves office.
It's just curiosity on my part, knowing that the naysayers will say that popularity has little to nothing to do with leadership skills.
- nilita
Jack Linthicum - 27 Jun 2008 20:49 GMT > >>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the > >>>>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - nilita One popularity rating does count, fewer people are admitting to being Republicans.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/OpEds/Read.aspx?guid=75e4dfaf-af37-489f -b3f8-fc16fcc3518b
Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:33 GMT <snip>
>One popularity rating does count, fewer people are admitting to being >Republicans. > >http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/OpEds/Read.aspx?guid=75e4dfaf-af37-489f -b3f8-fc16fcc3518b More people should not "admit" to being either, nor should they join-up. They should stay open minded & vote for the absolute best person to do the job, not a Party's Platform.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:31 GMT <snip>
>What was his popularity rating when he left, I wonder, and how it will >compare to GWB's when he leaves office. > >It's just curiosity on my part, knowing that the naysayers will say that >popularity has little to nothing to do with leadership skills. Being POTUS isn't really a popularity contest. Getting elected & staying elected might be, but not doing the job.
On an Episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit (I love that show), they showed how by simply asking the polling question a certain way you can always get the answer you want.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:29 GMT >>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>>>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Better public speaker, better at live interviews, better at party >discipline. Tony Blair threw S&M Parties? Always did think the Brit's enjoyed a naughty spank now & again.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
William Black - 28 Jun 2008 10:55 GMT >>>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>>>>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Tony Blair threw S&M Parties? Always did think the Brit's enjoyed a > naughty spank now & again. If you don't understand the words then I'm afraid you're not fit to take part in the debate...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Zombywoof - 28 Jun 2008 15:35 GMT <snip>
>>>Better public speaker, better at live interviews, better at party >>>discipline. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If you don't understand the words then I'm afraid you're not fit to take >part in the debate... I guess along with their naughty little spank, they don't like humor either.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
D. Spencer Hines - 28 Jun 2008 03:13 GMT Small beer...
We must await The Verdict Of History...
50 Years from now we may be able to fairly evaluate Blair and Bush as PM and President.
Not Now...
Far Too Premature.
We're just becoming able to do it with John F. Kennedy today.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas -------------------------------------------
>>>> I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader. [sop] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Better public speaker, better at live interviews, better at party > discipline. John Briggs - 28 Jun 2008 21:58 GMT >>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all >>>>> the assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > How could you tell? Seriously. He knew what he was doing - which makes his crime worse, of course.
 Signature John Briggs
Zombywoof - 29 Jun 2008 18:47 GMT >>>>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all >>>>>> the assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >He knew what he was doing - which makes his crime worse, of course. That is a really interesting point.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
Zombywoof - 27 Jun 2008 23:28 GMT >>>> "Neither. I am an illiterate that has to rely on my wife for all the >>>> assistance I can get." [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >He was a sight better than GW Bush... For England or America?
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
Andrew Swallow - 28 Jun 2008 23:26 GMT > "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message [snip]
>> Tony Blair famously couldn't work out how to send emails or surf the net >> when he became Prime Minister. >> > I'm not sure Blair was such a great leader. Tony Blair was not there to be a leader he was there to ensure that no one else took command, whilst entertaining everyone. A HQ that countermands the orders of the officers on the spot can create a big mess.
Andrew Swallow
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