History Forum / General / British History / July 2008

Speaking for the whole 'mankind' was not an universal habit in the
earlier insurgencies. Quite often, it was something much more local
and easier to understand, like "Morta Alla Francia, Italia Anela" or
"Kill the Papists!". Abstract thinking in the terms of a brotherhood
of men (and related demagoguery) was not typical before Enlightenment.

"Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> wrote in message

7 October 1488
Second day of parliament in the presence of our supreme lord the king

[1488/10/3]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Sederunt
Present on the same day:

 a.. For the clergy
 b.. [William Scheves], archbishop of St Andrews
 c.. [Robert Blackadder], bishop of Glasgow
 d.. [George Brown, bishop of] Dunkeld
 e.. [William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen
 f.. [George Vaus, bishop of] Galloway
 g.. [James Chisholm, bishop of] Dunblane
 h.. [John Campbell, bishop of the] Isles
 i.. [John Hepburn], prior of St Andrews
 j.. [George Shaw], abbot of Paisley
 k.. [Robert Ker, abbot] of Kelso
 l.. [Robert Bellenden, abbot of] Holyrood
 m.. [Henry Abercrombie, abbot of] Cambuskenneth
 n.. [David Brown, abbot of] Melrose
 o.. [Peter, abbot of] Newbattle
 p.. [Andrew Cavers, abbot of] Lindores
 q.. [George Murray, abbot of] Inchaffray
 r.. [Michael Harrower, abbot of] Inchcolm
 s.. [Patrick Vaus], prior of Whithorn
 t.. [Patrick MacCulloch], abbot of Soulseat
 u.. [John Schanwell], abbot of Coupar [Angus]
 v.. [Alexander Inglis], archdeacon of St Andrews
 w.. [Archibald Whitelaw, archdeacon of Lothian], secretary
 x.. [Walter Drummond], rector of St Andrews
 y.. [David Meldrum], official of St Andrews
 z.. [Patrick Leche], official of Glasgow
 aa.. [Walter Bunch], abbot of Balmerino
 ab.. [William Bunche], abbot of Kilwinning
 ac.. [Andrew Lidderdale], abbot of Dryburgh
 ad.. [Robert Harrower], prior of Pluscarden
 ae.. [William Rutherford], prior of Restenneth
 af.. [John Liston], provost of St Salvator's College
 ag.. D[ean] of St Andrews
 ah.. Master Hugh Spens
 ai.. Master Martin Wan
 a.. For the barons
 b.. Colin [Campbell], earl of Argyll, chancellor etc.
 c.. Archibald [Douglas], earl of Angus
 d.. [George Gordon], earl of Huntly?
 e.. James [Douglas], earl of Morton
 f.. William [Hay], earl of Erroll
 g.. William [Keith], earl Marischal
 h.. John [Stewart], earl of Lennox
 i.. George [Leslie], earl of Rothes
 j.. [John Stewart], earl of Atholl
 k.. [James Stewart], earl of Buchan?
 l.. [Patrick Hepburn], lord Hailes, master [of the king's] household
 m.. [James Hamilton], lord Hamilton
 n.. [Robert Lyle], lord Lyle, justiciar
 o.. [John Lyon], lord Glamis
 p.. [Andrew Gray, lord] Gray
 q.. [Laurence Oliphant, lord] Oliphant
 r.. [Hugh Montgomery, lord] Montgomery
 s.. [John Drummond, lord] Drummond
 t.. [John Maxwell, lord] Maxwell
 u.. [William Graham, lord] Graham
 v.. [John Carlyle, lord] Carlyle
 w.. [George Haliburton, lord] Dirleton
 x.. Alexander Home, chamberlain
 y.. [Archibald Campbell], master of Argyll
 z.. [Matthew Stewart], master of Lennox
 aa.. Alexander Stewart of Avondale
 ab.. Constable of Dundee
 ac.. James Ogilvy of Findlater, knight
 ad.. Lord [of] Craigie
 ae.. Walter Kerr
 af.. Patrick Home
 ag.. Archibald Edmonstone
 ah.. Lord of Drum
 ai.. [Campbell of Loudoun], sheriff of Ayr
 aj.. William Seton of Meldrum
 a.. Commissioners
 b.. Edinburgh
 c.. Dundee
 d.. Stirling
 e.. Perth
 f.. Linlithgow
 g.. Haddington
 h.. St Andrews
 i.. Renfrew
 j.. Rutherglen
 k.. Aberdeen
 l.. Dumfries
 m.. Elgin and Forres
 n.. Rothesay
 o.. Irvine
 p.. Ayr
[1488/10/4]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Judicial proceeding: continuation of summons
On the which second day of parliament, with the lord king sitting in person,
James [Stewart], earl of Buchan, [being] often called by royal summons and
[by] the tenor of the same under the testimonial of the aforenoted king's
great seal directed to answer the said lord our king and his justiciar in
the present parliament for certain treasonous actions contained in the said
summons, but not compearing, it was continued by the lord our king until
tomorrow at the tenth hour, in the same form that it is now and without
prejudice of party.

[1488/10/5]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Committee members: lords of the articles
 a.. Lords elected for the articles:
 b..
   a.. For the clergy
   b.. [Robert Blackadder], bishop of Glasgow
   c.. [George Brown, bishop of] Dunkeld
   d.. [George Vaus, bishop of] Galloway
   e.. [John Hepburn], prior of St Andrews
   f.. [Archibald Whitelaw, archdeacon of Lothian], secretary
   g.. [William Knollis, preceptor of Torphichen], treasurer
   h.. Master Martin Wan
   i.. [James Lindsay], archdeacon of Glasgow
   j.. [Alexander Inglis, archdeacon of St Andrews], clerk register
 a.. For the barons
 b.. [Colin Campbell, earl of Argyll], chancellor
 c.. [Archibald Douglas], earl of Angus
 d.. [George Gordon, earl of] Huntly
 e.. [William Hay, earl of] Erroll
 f.. [Patrick Hepburn], lord Hailes, master [of the king's] household
 g.. [John Stewart], earl of Lennox
 h.. [Robert Lyle], lord Lyle
 i.. [Hugh Montgomery], lord of Montgomery
 j.. [Laurence Oliphant], lord Oliphant
 k.. [Andrew Gray], lord Gray
 l.. [John Drummond], lord Drummond
 m.. Alexander Home of that Ilk, chamberlain
 n.. Patrick Home
 o.. Master Richard Lawson
 a.. Commissioners
 b.. Henry Preston for Edinburgh
 c.. John Knollis for Aberdeen
 d.. John Hepburn for Haddington
 e.. Alexander Bunche for Perth
 f.. Alexander Fowlis for Linlithgow
[1488/10/6]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Committee members: lords auditors of causes and complaints
 a.. On the same day the lords elected to the causes:
 b..
   a.. For the clergy
   b.. [William Elphinstone], bishop of Aberdeen
   c.. [George Shaw], abbot of Paisley
   d.. Master Patrick Leche, official of Glasgow
 a.. For the barons
 b.. [William Keith], earl Marischal
 c.. [John Drummond], lord Drummond
 d.. [John Lyon], lord Glamis
 a.. For the commissioners
 b.. James Crichton - 'non por'
 c.. William Monorgund
 d.. Duncan Forrester

On Jul 2, 11:48 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

"Just as true today as it was in 1779" is not exactly total backing
for the statement that follows

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

9 October 1488
[1488/10/12]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Procedure: preamble
In the parliament of the most excellent prince and our lord, the lord James
IV, by the grace of God most illustrious king of Scots, held and begun at
Edinburgh in the tolbooth of the same on Thursday 9 October 1488 by the said
supreme lord our king in his personal presence.

[1488/10/13]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Judicial proceeding: remission of treason of James Stewart, earl of Buchan
?On the same day James [Stewart], earl of Buchan placed himself under the
remission of our aforesaid lord the king, for his treasonable venture into
the realm of England to [Henry VII], the king thereof, and for treasonably
communicating and working with the said king of England towards the
inbringing of certain Englishmen to the destruction of the realm and lieges
of Scotland; and for instigating and causing the said king of England to
enter the realm of Scotland in person with his arms and an abundance of men;
and for the treasonable art, part, counsel and assistance given and
exhibited to Andrew [Stewart], bishop of Moray, Alexander [Forbes], lord
Forbes, John [Ramsay], lord Bothwell, John Ross of Montgreenan, John Murray
of Touchadam, Stephen Lockhart of Cleghorn, and James Homyll, tailor, in the
fabrication of a commission and certain documents to the king of England by
John, lord Bothwell and Henry Wyatt, an English messenger, towards the
breaking of the peace and truces entered into by [James III], our supreme
lord the king's late father and parliament with the king of England, against
the common good and the public interest, and to the perpetual destruction of
the realm - by virtue of which a war was proclaimed upon one part of the
realm, and diverse lieges of that part were impoverished, plundered, killed
and put to the fire - and to the perpetual subjection of the crown of
Scotland to the obedience and allegiance of the king of England; and for the
treasonable art, part, counsel and assistance given and shown to the said
persons in the fabrication of a certain commission, and [in] sending it to
[Henry Percy], earl of Northumberland and lord William Tyler, an English
knight, to the effect that they, by virtue of the said commission and the
power of his council sent and directed to them, [should give] remissions to
all Scots taking the part of the English against our supreme lord the king
and his faithful lieges; and for the treasonable art, part, counsel and
assistance given and shown to the said persons in the sending and dispatch
of John, lord Bothwell on several occasions to the king of England, to the
destruction and perpetual subjection of the crown of Scotland to the
allegiance and obedience of the said king of England; and for the
treasonable art, part, counsel and assistance given and shown to John Ross
of Hawkhead, knight, John Ross of Montgreenan and Stephen Lockhart of
Cleghorn and Thomas Fotheringham of Powrie in bringing forth our supreme
lord the king's said late father at Blackness, with arms and an abundance of
men, for the destruction of our supreme lord the king and the lords adhering
to him, heedful that our said supreme lord the king at that time, like
everyone else, stood ready to fulfil the [agreements] sent, promised and
subscribed with his sign manual, which he offered to our said lord king [who
was] then the prince, which things were, by his counsel, broken, ruptured
and spurned, for which reason the earls [George Gordon, earl of] Huntly,
[William Hay, earl of] Erroll, [William Keith, earl] Marischal [and] [John
Lyon], lord Glamis left him, the said James, and his faction, and returned
to their own territories; and for the treasonable art, part, counsel and
assistance given and shown to the said persons in preparation and array for
the field of battle against our said supreme lord the king at Blackness, in
which place a new treaty was made, and the said James, earl of Buchan,
William [Ruthven], lord Ruthven, Thomas Fotheringham of Powrie [and] William
Murray of Tullibardine were given [as] sureties for the completion of the
[treaties] already promised.

[1488/10/14]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Judicial proceeding: process of forfeiture against John Ramsay, lord
Bothwell
Forfeiture of John [Ramsay], lord Bothwell

On that day Carrick pursuivant, sheriff in this matter, compeared in court,
and presented a certain royal summons directed to him under the testimony of
the royal great seal, for the summoning of John [Ramsay], lord Bothwell
before our aforesaid lord the king and the three estates of his realm
gathered at the same place, the tenor of which summons follows and is thus:

James, by the grace of God king of Scots, to his sheriff and bailies of
Lanark, also to Lyon king of arms, Rothesay, Ross, Snowdon [and] Marchmont
heralds, Unicorn, Ormond, Carrick, Bute [and] Montrose pursuivants, Hector
Meldrum [and] William Campbell, macers, [and] Simon Sperdour, John Keir,
Donald Malynny and George Shaw, courants, and any of them jointly and
severally, our sheriffs in this matter, greeting. We commission you and
order that you summon, lawfully and peremptorily, before witnesses, John,
lord Bothwell - by apprehending him personally if you are able to come upon
him, otherwise at the castle of Bothwell, and by public proclamation at the
market cross of our burgh of Lanark, so that in this manner the summons can
likely come to his notice - to compear personally before us in our next
parliament, to be held at Edinburgh on Wednesday 8 October next to come,
with continuation of days, to answer to us in our aforesaid parliament for
treasonably leading astray and misleading the late James king of Scots, our
deceased prince, against the common good, the public interest and our realm,
causing him to oppress his prelates, barons, burgesses and lieges by common
selling and buying of justice to their ultimate ruin, by the force of which
thing foreign merchants coming to our kingdom were utterly ruined and
plundered, so that nothing [...] for supplying food to the kingdom, they
dared not enter the said kingdom; and for the treasonable art, part, counsel
and assistance given and shown to James [Stewart], earl of Buchan in his
treasonable venture and passage into the realm of England, and for
treasonably communicating and working with the aforesaid [Henry VII], king
of England towards the inbringing of certain Englishmen to the destruction
of our realm and lieges; and for the treasonable art and part with the said
earl of Buchan in causing and instigating the said king of England, as far
as he could, to enter our said kingdom in person with arms and an abundance
of men, to the destruction of us and our lieges; and for the treasonable
art, part, counsel and assistance given and exhibited to Andrew [Stewart],
bishop of Moray, James, earl of Buchan [and] Alexander [Forbes], lord Forbes
in the fabrication of a commission and certain documents to the king of
England by you, John, and Henry Wyatt, an English messenger, towards the
breaking of the peace and truces entered into by our late father and his
parliament and the king of England, against the common good and the public
interest, and to the perpetual destruction of the realm, by virtue of which
a war was proclaimed upon one part of our realm, and diverse lieges of that
part were plundered, killed and put to the fire - and for the treasonable
bearing of the said commission and documents to the king of England, to the
perpetual subjection of our realm to the obedience of the king of England;
and for the treasonable art, part and counsel in the fabrication of a
certain commission, and [in] sending it to [Henry Percy], earl of
Northumberland and lord William Tyler, an English knight, to the effect that
they, by virtue of the said commission and power, should give remissions to
all Scots taking the part of the English against our supreme lord the king
and his faithful lieges; and for the treasonable art, part and counsel given
and shown to the said persons in causing our said late father to break
various agreements and concords promised to us, at that time the prince,
subscribed with our late father's sign manual, for the common peace and
tranquillity of the realm, and to repudiate those things which were at
various times promised, and [which] were broken, and not observed by you and
yours, by reason of which breach the earl[s] [George Gordon, earl of]
Huntly, [William Hay, earl of] Erroll, [William Keith, earl] Marischal [and]
[John Lyon], lord Glamis left his faction, and went into to their own
localities; and for the treasonable art, part and counsel given and shown to
the said persons in advising our aforesaid late father to go forth from
Edinburgh Castle with arms and an abundance of men, after diverse agreements
made by him at Blackness and elsewhere were broken, in order to attack us,
his son, at that time the prince, at Stirling; and upon a great many other
charges and treasonable offences wickedly perpetrated by the same John
against us and our realm, [and] to submit to the law. Intimating to the said
John that whether or not he compear at the said day and place, with
continuation of days, we will nevertheless proceed with the administration
of justice in the aforesaid matters. And return the present letters, duly
executed, and the endorsement of the same, to the bearer. And be you, who
shall execute the presents, at that place on the said day in our presence,
bringing with you written evidence of your summons by way of discharge, or
the witnesses themselves. For the doing whereof we entrust our fullest power
in this matter to you and any of yours, jointly and severally, by the tenor
of the presents. Given under the testimony of our great seal, at Edinburgh,
2 August in the first year of our reign [1488].

After the reading of this summons, the same sheriff in the present
parliament proved the said summons lawfully executed, by his endorsement and
certain witnesses contained in the same endorsement produced and sworn by
him for this purpose there, in court, namely John Hamilton of Woodhall and
Patrick Hamilton, the tenor of which endorsement is thus:

On 6 August 1488 I, Carrick pursuivant, went in person to the main houses of
Bothwell, and there summoned John, lord Bothwell to compear before our
sovereign lord in person in his parliament to be held at Edinburgh on 8
October next, with continuation of days, to answer his highness on all the
points and articles and crimes of treason contained in these our sovereign
lord's letters, before these witnesses John of Hamilton, Patrick of
Hamilton, John Baxter and James Echiston. And then the next day, 7 August,
I, the said Carrick pursuivant, went to Lanark market cross and there by
public proclamation summoned and warned the said John, lord Bothwell to
compear in person before our sovereign lord in his aforesaid parliament, to
answer his highness on all the points, articles and crimes of treason
contained in these our sovereign lord's letters, and according to the tenor
of the same before these witnesses George Aitkinson, William Forrester,
bailies of Lanark, Thomas Weir and John Mowat, with various others, in
testimony of which I have set my signet hereto.

John, lord Bothwell being often called by strength of the aforesaid summons
and the tenor thereof to answer to our said lord the king in the present
parliament upon all the treasonable actions contained in the said summons,
and not compearing at the lawful time of day when he was expected, the order
and process of the continuations of the said summons having being seen and
understood by the aforementioned lords, barons and commissioners of the
burghs to have proceeded thus far according to law, Colin [Campbell], earl
of Argyll, lord Campbell and Lorne, chancellor of our lord the king and in
his name, at his express command, asked and sought of the said lords, barons
and commissioners of the burghs their judgement and the decree of parliament
in the process of the said John, lord Bothwell, if he was guilty of the
charges of treason aforenamed [and] contained in the said summons. Which
lords, barons and commissioners of the burghs, the estates of his realm,
being carefully and ripely advised, found and each man individually
delivered that the said Lord Bothwell was guilty of all the charges of the
treasonous actions contained in said summons, except for the time of
Blackness; and therefore it was given in judgement or finding of forfeiture
by the mouth of Alexander Dempster, dempster of parliament, in the manner
and form which follows in the vernacular.

This court of parliament shows for law and I give for doom that for as much
as it is found by judgement of parliament that John [Ramsay], lord Bothwell
has committed and undertaken treason against our sovereign lord the king and
his realm in all the aforenoted points and articles contained in the summons
made for that, except the occurrence at Blackness, that therefore he has
forfeited to our sovereign lord the king his life, lands, offices, goods
movable and unmovable and all his other possessions that he held within the
realm of Scotland, forever to remain with our said sovereign lord, his heirs
and successors for his treason and offence, and that I give for doom.

Judicial proceeding: continuation of summons
[1488/10/15]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On the same day John Ross of Montgreenan [being] often called by royal
summons and by the tenor of the same under the testimonial of the aforesaid
king's great seal directed to personally answer the said lord our king for
certain treasonous actions contained in the said summons, and not
compearing, it was continued until tomorrow in the same form as they are now
without prejudice of party.

[1488/10/16]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On the same day Cuthbert Murray of Cockpool [being] often called by royal
summons and by the tenor of the same under the testimonial of the aforesaid
king's great seal directed to personally answer the said lord our king for
certain treasonous actions contained in the said summons, and not
compearing, it was continued until tomorrow in the same form as it is now
without prejudice of party.

Comparing Oliver Cromwell to George Washington are we?